Tone Down Siege

Alchimiste1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFvhF2dFu_c

As can be seen from the video, Siege is ticking for 11k and nearly 12k tics through block. This is clearly an overtuned mechanic that needs to be looked into. Lancers are even worse and hit a player for 25k+ in an instant. 4 well placed lancers are enough to defend a keep. Keep in mind that zos reduced healing but left siege damage the same.

And before a 40k health tank main tries to argue that siege is the only thing that can do damage to them I say that's a bigger issue in itself. 40k health pure tank builds don't really contribute anything to a fight other than, surprise, the ability to set down siege.

I would also like to suggest an introduction of some siege type weapons that make it easier to take keeps. Being bombarded by siege from an enemy faction while you are fighting outside the keep with no real way to deal with lancers is simply not good mechanics. Maybe introduce some walkable siege towers like in the movies that move very slowly but allow people to climb up a wall.( the enemy faction would of course be allowed to targe them and try to burn them down). Make it so only a few people can pass like 4 before it disarms.

VaranisArano

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Alchimiste1

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does absolutely nothing to ball groups. Siege is not an effective counter to ballgroups. Ball groups only die when they get an entire faction stack on them and a negate gets dropped. Otherwise siege just tickles them/

There is indeed a problem with hot stacking but thats a separate issue. As things are siege is currently far more affective against uncoordinated groups than against organized ball groups with every buff in the game.

VaranisArano

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does absolutely nothing to ball groups. Siege is not an effective counter to ballgroups. Ball groups only die when they get an entire faction stack on them and a negate gets dropped. Otherwise siege just tickles them/

There is indeed a problem with hot stacking but thats a separate issue. As things are siege is currently far more affective against uncoordinated groups than against organized ball groups with every buff in the game.

It's basically true that everything in Cyrodiil is more effective against uncoordinated groups and solo players than ball groups. Because ball groups build in those layers of HOTs and heals to withstand all that damage. Uncoordinated groups and solo players don't.

Nerfing siege means that ball groups don't even have to build to withstand that damage anymore, freeing up the resources that went towards constant overhealing under siege for other abilities and resulting in a significant buff to them. Was that your intent?

Alchimiste1

VaranisArano wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does absolutely nothing to ball groups. Siege is not an effective counter to ballgroups. Ball groups only die when they get an entire faction stack on them and a negate gets dropped. Otherwise siege just tickles them/

There is indeed a problem with hot stacking but thats a separate issue. As things are siege is currently far more affective against uncoordinated groups than against organized ball groups with every buff in the game.

It's basically true that everything in Cyrodiil is more effective against uncoordinated groups and solo players than ball groups. Because ball groups build in those layers of HOTs and heals to withstand all that damage. Uncoordinated groups and solo players don't.

Nerfing siege means that ball groups don't even have to build to withstand that damage anymore, freeing up the resources that went towards constant overhealing under siege for other abilities and resulting in a significant buff to them. Was that your intent?

You are wrong. If siege gets nerfed nothing changes for ball groups, they will build the same because what kills ball groups is a well-placed negate (or multiple). It only benefits the players not in uncoordinated ball groups. And you are missing the point. There is a huge problem with the layering of Hots but that's a separate issue. This topic is saying siege should not tic for 12k through block.

Ball groups min max their stats. There is no reason for them to stop using sets that increase their healing, or buff weapon/spell damage that in turn buff healing.

geonsocal

i spend a lot of time while playing trying hard not to get gated...at least if you use siege correctly you can slow down, maybe even stop an uncoordinated small group...

siege is great when you're outnumbered and defending a keep - it's even better when you can set it down somewhere during large melees and throw a large group of enemy in to disarray with continuous meatbags...

i like siege...i like it a lot...

what's tough about being on the other end of siege weapons is: siege plus lag...that's a tough situation there...

i wonder if it's perspective (mostly attacking group play versus mostly defending solo play) that makes some folks not like siege and others like it...

VaranisArano

geonsocal wrote: »

i wonder if it's perspective (mostly attacking group play versus mostly defending solo play) that makes some folks not like siege and others like it...

I can tell you that from a raid healer's perspective, there's a huge difference in perspective depending on whether we're using siege or being siege.

From the outside, fighting an organized group, it feels like we're barely tickling them.

From the inside, we're healing constantly, keeping a nervous eye on our resources, and panicking every time Crown's health takes a big dip. The siegers never know how close we are to wiping to siege sometimes.

Alchimiste1

VaranisArano wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

i wonder if it's perspective (mostly attacking group play versus mostly defending solo play) that makes some folks not like siege and others like it...

I can tell you that from a raid healer's perspective, there's a huge difference in perspective depending on whether we're using siege or being siege.

From the outside, fighting an organized group, it feels like we're barely tickling them.

From the inside, we're healing constantly, keeping a nervous eye on our resources, and panicking every time Crown's health takes a big dip. The siegers never know how close we are to wiping to siege sometimes.

Oh so you ball group.
You were really trying to convince me that your group would start to run less healers and less efficient sets if siege got toned down a bit LOL.

I've done solo pvp, small group pvp, large group coordinated and uncoordinated.
By far siege is the easiest to deal with when you are in a ball group with lots of healers.

Elendir2am

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can tell you that from a raid healer's perspective, there's a huge difference in perspective depending on whether we're using siege or being siege.

From the outside, fighting an organized group, it feels like we're barely tickling them.

From the inside, we're healing constantly, keeping a nervous eye on our resources, and panicking every time Crown's health takes a big dip. The siegers never know how close we are to wiping to siege sometimes.

I have noticed that when I hit ball-group with ultimate and proximity bomb, they move somewhere they cannot be hit by siege easily.

SaffronCitrusflower

The only siege I think should be nerfed is oils. Coldfire and lancers can't be purchased from every vendor like oils can, so they should do more damage than any siege from the generic siege vendor.

There is also a huge problem with the indication circle of siege never showing on the ground, so you don't know you're being sieged until you check your death recap, but this is with all siege, and it's the most common with oils.

VaranisArano

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

i wonder if it's perspective (mostly attacking group play versus mostly defending solo play) that makes some folks not like siege and others like it...

I can tell you that from a raid healer's perspective, there's a huge difference in perspective depending on whether we're using siege or being siege.

From the outside, fighting an organized group, it feels like we're barely tickling them.

From the inside, we're healing constantly, keeping a nervous eye on our resources, and panicking every time Crown's health takes a big dip. The siegers never know how close we are to wiping to siege sometimes.

Oh so you ball group.
You were really trying to convince me that your group would start to run less healers and less efficient sets if siege got toned down a bit LOL.

I've done solo pvp, small group pvp, large group coordinated and uncoordinated.
By far siege is the easiest to deal with when you are in a ball group with lots of healers.

Yeah, I run as a raid healer. And I can tell you that nerfing siege is going to buff us, indirectly, because now we have to work much less hard to stay alive. The effort normally spent keeping us alive can now be spent on more fun things, like more damage!

I realize you don't see the effort that goes into surviving siege damage and making it look like siege is doing nothing to us, but I assure you that it does indeed take a lot of effort.

We're already powerful enough. We don't need the extra benefit of taking less damage from siege on top of it all.


Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be advocating for nerfs that benefit my playstyle.

Nerf siege, ZOS!

Dojohoda

On pcna, I am glad that seige is less busy than it used to be.

If seige is bugged and I believe it is, that needs to be fixed ASAP please.

Alchimiste1

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

The only siege I think should be nerfed is oils. Coldfire and lancers can't be purchased from every vendor like oils can, so they should do more damage than any siege from the generic siege vendor.

There is also a huge problem with the indication circle of siege never showing on the ground, so you don't know you're being sieged until you check your death recap, but this is with all siege, and it's the most common with oils.

You can however buy coldfire off any trader from any zone. They are cheap too, especially on dates close to mym.
Also I have just learned that siege is buggged so you can't block or roll the tics. Zos should fix that

Alchimiste1

@VaranisArano
"We're already powerful enough. We don't need the extra benefit of taking less damage from siege on top of it all."

Dodged question. The only thing that would change is ball groups would drop siege shield from their bars(maybe).
Overall, a nerf to siege is MORE helpful to un-coodinated groups than coordinated groups.
Ball groups are a separate issue and the layering of hots should also be addressed

OBJnoob

Siege is good at destroying other siege and/or deterring other siegers from firing their own equipment. It is also okay at hurting players, but normally when they are lured into a certain area such as by baiting defenders out/inside keep walls or when attacker's are walking through a freshly opened door or wall.

Otherwise it's almost useless because it takes annoyingly long to fire and reload, the projectile itself is slow and telegraphed, and players normally move too fast to be aimed at reliably.

When the enemy manages to cluster (bait,) you together and send a well timed volley of siege... Well, that really should do a lot of damage, shouldn't it?

Single people getting hit by single siege... Honestly, if you can't avoid it purge it or heal through it... You need to work on your character. Too squishy.

I have been on both sides of the discussion. Been unable to enter a breach because of coordinated siege and been holding a breach against ridiculous odds only due to coordinated siege. These are hallmarks of GOOD battles and result in FAT ticks. Seek them out.

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

Siege is good at destroying other siege and/or deterring other siegers from firing their own equipment. It is also okay at hurting players, but normally when they are lured into a certain area such as by baiting defenders out/inside keep walls or when attacker's are walking through a freshly opened door or wall.

Otherwise it's almost useless because it takes annoyingly long to fire and reload, the projectile itself is slow and telegraphed, and players normally move too fast to be aimed at reliably.

When the enemy manages to cluster (bait,) you together and send a well timed volley of siege... Well, that really should do a lot of damage, shouldn't it?

Single people getting hit by single siege... Honestly, if you can't avoid it purge it or heal through it... You need to work on your character. Too squishy.

I have been on both sides of the discussion. Been unable to enter a breach because of coordinated siege and been holding a breach against ridiculous odds only due to coordinated siege. These are hallmarks of GOOD battles and result in FAT ticks. Seek them out.

My point is that in the current way that siege is utilized it is too strong. you can single handedly defend a keep with 4 lancers.
Furthermore, you all seem to be under the assumption that because of the clip I posted I only play solo. Thats not true. I'm not even arguing this from a solo perspective.

1. They should definitely fix the bug and make it so blocking and rolling helps avoid the tics
2. lancers and coldfire are over tuned.
3. there needs to be better way to deal with siege defense. It is so incredibly easy to sit at the top of a wall keep and just spam lancer or cold fire shots without any fear of danger.

also, that cold-fire was hitting 12k through block, gl surviving that on stamsorc.

OBJnoob

Good luck hitting my stamsorc L.O.L.

Try sieging the siege.

I'm not assuming you play solo-- I didn't watch the video-- I'm assuming you need help because I've played this game for like 5 years and it isn't that big of a deal.

If there's a group of enemies you regularly fight against who coordinate lancers then I feel for you. I'm sure that is annoying. But no, 4 lancers isn't enough to single-handedly defend a keep.

Lancers are found through antiquities, aren't they? Seriously... Set up some fire trebs on them. They'll run out of lancers before you run out of trebs.

Elendir2am

Lancers are:
- difficult to obtain, leads - leg work - excavations,
- anti personnel, ineffective against anything else than player,
- weapon with direct path of projectile, limiting factor from where to where you can shoot,
- big scatter of projectile, you hit your target sometime with all, sometime with only one projetile;
- don't left AoE DoTs, You can exit location and return.


So, if keep was defended only by lancers, then it would be easy to avoid any damage from sieges.

Alchimiste1

OBJnoob wrote: »

Good luck hitting my stamsorc L.O.L.

Try sieging the siege.

I'm not assuming you play solo-- I didn't watch the video-- I'm assuming you need help because I've played this game for like 5 years and it isn't that big of a deal.

If there's a group of enemies you regularly fight against who coordinate lancers then I feel for you. I'm sure that is annoying. But no, 4 lancers isn't enough to single-handedly defend a keep.

Lancers are found through antiquities, aren't they? Seriously... Set up some fire trebs on them. They'll run out of lancers before you run out of trebs.

I've played longer. trying to tell me you've never been hit by a siege on ssorc ?

Alchimiste1

[snip] I'm arguing with the very same people that sit atop a keep and do nothing but siege.

[edited for minor baiting]

OBJnoob

Honestly? I'm sure I have been hit by siege on a stamsorc. Does that admission help your case? Or does the fact that I honestly don't remember hurt your case?

I mostly run solo now so I don't siege much at all but I used to be in some large guild groups. They didn't put me on siege though they put me in the breach because I know how to live.

Elendir2am

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

[snip] I'm arguing with the very same people that sit atop a keep and do nothing but siege.

So, you think, that all of us only defend keeps, never conquering keeps? And that none of us go out of keep to pushe attacker from walls or gate, to prevent lighting keep up?

[edited to remove quote]

Alchimiste1

Elendir2am wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

[snip] I'm arguing with the very same people that sit atop a keep and do nothing but siege.

So, you think, that all of us only defend keeps, never conquering keeps? And that none of us go out of keep to pushe attacker from walls or gate, to prevent lighting keep up?

yes

[edited to remove quote]

geonsocal

hey @Alchimiste1 ...good job keeping a good sense of humor here on the forums...it is what it is - and, when you hang out here in the PVP section - you already should know you are going to run in to some feisty folks

i looked at your vid - amazing there was any siege impact telegraphed on the ground at all...invisible siege sucks...

what caught my attention though was that you're a DK using vigor for healing...just curious why?

Elendir2am wrote: »

Lancers are:
- difficult to obtain, leads - leg work - excavations,
- anti personnel, ineffective against anything else than player,
- weapon with direct path of projectile, limiting factor from where to where you can shoot,
- big scatter of projectile, you hit your target sometime with all, sometime with only one projetile;
- don't left AoE DoTs, You can exit location and return.


So, if keep was defended only by lancers, then it would be easy to avoid any damage from sieges.

had a great battle (i'm DC) at the arrius mine a couple of weeks ago...we had set up sieging at the mine on the east wall - the EP inside of arrius though just made it near impossible to make much headway on the wall due to their use of the lancers and lightning ballistas...

the fight went on for about 10 to 15 minutes before a group of AD wandered in to the area and caused enough chaos for us to give up on sieging and worry about just staying alive...

but, yeah - not exactly a common occurrence, but - 3 or 4 lancers with a a couple of lightning ballistas thrown in can make life really hard on sieging...

and yes, those sneaky folks who position their cold-fire on the top of outposts and fire straight down on you and your ballista are miserable humans making life tough on the poor folks just having a good time and trying to stay alive below...

Alchimiste1

@geonsocal I'm using vigor on magdk simply because after the hybridization changes it can be utilized by both mag and stam characters efficiently. They also nerfed rapid regeneration's healing amount and buffed vigor by giving it minor resistances so it's a much better heal than rapid regen.

Yeah I don't think some people understood than I'm not asking them to gut siege, just to fix the block and roll dodge bugs present and to tone it down a bit.

Alchimiste1

One last thing, yes lancers can be hard to get because you scry for them but be honest, how often do those people lose or get their lancers burned ? almost never because they only get placed on keeps when the walls are up to provide heavy defense. I think there should be a better mechanic.

Kartalin

I think one of the biggest issues is that people are wearing sets that extend the duration of fire dots or somehow otherwise increasing the damage. Then if you get inside and try to take the keep, the siege experts have abandoned ship because they're afraid of dying like there's a penalty or something, leaving any remaining defenders high and dry.

It only takes two ticks of cold fire ballista damage plus any one other siege active on you and then 30k health is gone in just over a second, as you wade through siege-based ground dots trying to get in. And if multiple people are trying to get in simultaneously then you have to worry about the plaguebreak debuff that is active on you. The only counter is truly massive healing via active hots and a burst heal.

Gear should not affect siege damage or its duration.

Gizit

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

One last thing, yes lancers can be hard to get because you scry for them but be honest, how often do those people lose or get their lancers burned ? almost never because they only get placed on keeps when the walls are up to provide heavy defense. I think there should be a better mechanic.

I agree, we should add some mechanic inducing engines like, NEGATE LANCERS!!! does no damage only negates, low fire rate and smaller AoE of Negate.

Warden Gate (mechanic) or a Knock Back Siege to knock players around causing a Hard CC much like leap but a larger knockback area close to what PvE bosses can do.

Or hear me out, a siege engine that can fire a player onto walls!

BlakMarket

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does the bare minimum to any semi competent ball group, how do I know? I've personally played the play style or head over to twitch and watch ballgroups who stream & you'll see first hand how siege does the bare minimum.

VaranisArano

BlakMarket wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does the bare minimum to any semi competent ball group, how do I know? I've personally played the play style or head over to twitch and watch ballgroups who stream & you'll see first hand how siege does the bare minimum.

I've been a healer in an organized raid, which is why I feel that nerfing siege is the wrong answer. If you feel it does the bare minimum to ballgroups, I can't see how the answer is to make it do even less to them. We don't need the indirect buff or to spend less effort on surviving siege and thus have more resources available to do damage than before.

BlakMarket

VaranisArano wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Do you also feel that siege is doing too much damage to ball groups with dedicated healers and stacked HOTs?

Or is it just doing too much to you?

Siege does the bare minimum to any semi competent ball group, how do I know? I've personally played the play style or head over to twitch and watch ballgroups who stream & you'll see first hand how siege does the bare minimum.

I've been a healer in an organized raid, which is why I feel that nerfing siege is the wrong answer. If you feel it does the bare minimum to ballgroups, I can't see how the answer is to make it do even less to them. We don't need the indirect buff or to spend less effort on surviving siege and thus have more resources available to do damage than before.

Ballgroups or stacking hots needs a thread of its own, as they dont run 24/7 but siege being op is a 24/7 issue. Stacking hots needs to be adjusted, for example a diminishing return system on abilities like echoing vigor - every time it is cast from a different player, the less effective it gets in group.

With the nerfs to healing the last two patches and no longer being able to dodge roll and block ticks, siege need to be adjusted accordingly also sets, cp and mythics should not buff siege - cold fire should not tick for 10-12k per second.