Why is magsorc getting so much hate in pvp right now?

AdamLAD

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Melzo

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

MagSorcs found dead all over Tamriel after the Arcanist announcement

Well, there might be some truth to it. But I rather think that the current state of the class um... a "preparation" for the new Class, so that it would not seem as they are nerfing base game class in the same update the new shiny one is introduced.

It happened every time we had a new class. Always, the most similar base game class was getting gutted. When Warden was introduced, Tamplar got nerfed to the ground. Same Happend with Nightblade when Necromancer was introduced. So I would not be surprised if Sorcerer does not receive any love it deserves in the next update, just so ZOS could sell new class.

That is one of the reason I kinda dislike whenever there is new class introduced. Something else "base game" gets pointlessly nerfed.

Now it is the turn of the necromancer and not the sorcerer to fall to the bottom.

jaws343

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

I still think you remove the Mag/Health Scaling from them altogether. And remove battlespirit reduction. Maybe scale off Crit, or:

Instead, give them a flat 10K at base. Maybe 15K for hardened ward. And then factor Crit Chance and Crit Damage into it. Crit chance working as it does, and allowing the shield to crit for a larger value, that larger value determined by your Crit damage.

It would allow stronger shields at base. With a chance to be stronger depending on how you build out crit modifiers. Maybe have light armor shield and sorc shield override one another to prevent stacking of those two.

WaywardArgonian

Building a Magsorc often feels like trying to complete a puzzle with 1 piece missing.

Want to have a good burst heal? Sacrifice 2 slots for a pet that can be killed pretty easily in big fights.
Want to slot shields instead of pets? Shields are much weaker than they used to be and you'll have to build for magicka, whereas nearly every other class can get by with low resource pools.
Want to have good damage? Sacrifice survivability by clearing bar space to be able to set up a proper delayed burst.

It's not impossible to play them, but having tried a bunch of different builds, it does feel weaker than any other class I've put time into. I did at one point play a decent Magsorc duelist build, but that one sacrificed the class's mobility and was only really useful in small, stationary fights. It's always something.

As others have explained, it's a mix of nerfs, too much focus on niche playstyles, and just a general sense of the class's design having become archaic as a result of general game design updates.

Aces-High-82

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Luede

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

it is not possible to play expensive shields on a Stam sorc, you would have to shift your focus very clearly to magicka & reg to even begin to make sense of shields as a possible heal alternative. Even with a hybrid specc it won't work. with curse, crit surge, streak and dark deal your mana pool is already very exhausted.

even if shields scale with dmg, i don't see any way to use them outside of a magicka sorc build.

Aces-High-82

Luede wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

it is not possible to play expensive shields on a Stam sorc, you would have to shift your focus very clearly to magicka & reg to even begin to make sense of shields as a possible heal alternative. Even with a hybrid specc it won't work. with curse, crit surge, streak and dark deal your mana pool is already very exhausted.

even if shields scale with dmg, i don't see any way to use them outside of a magicka sorc build.

Prisoner Rags (funzt auch in Rabenbwacht ;D)

Turtle_Bot

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Building a Magsorc often feels like trying to complete a puzzle with 1 piece missing.

Want to have a good burst heal? Sacrifice 2 slots for a pet that can be killed pretty easily in big fights.
Want to slot shields instead of pets? Shields are much weaker than they used to be and you'll have to build for magicka, whereas nearly every other class can get by with low resource pools.
Want to have good damage? Sacrifice survivability by clearing bar space to be able to set up a proper delayed burst.

It's not impossible to play them, but having tried a bunch of different builds, it does feel weaker than any other class I've put time into. I did at one point play a decent Magsorc duelist build, but that one sacrificed the class's mobility and was only really useful in small, stationary fights. It's always something.

As others have explained, it's a mix of nerfs, too much focus on niche playstyles, and just a general sense of the class's design having become archaic as a result of general game design updates.

This, so much this. It applies to all sorcs (stam, mag and hybrid), but it is so accurate.

Every time I play another class (outside of nb which just doesn't feel lacking at all), it feels like it lacks something, but that thing it's lacking can easily be filled by slotting 1 ability from outside the class kit which completes the build.

However, whenever I build my sorc (even my current hybrid build, which the build works, but the build easily performs better on other classes so it's the build that is carrying the class, not the class carrying the build), I'm constantly trying to fill far too many gaps with both sets used and slotting abilities from outside the class kit that it barely feels like I'm playing sorc anymore and even then it still feels like it's missing something.

Luede

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

it is not possible to play expensive shields on a Stam sorc, you would have to shift your focus very clearly to magicka & reg to even begin to make sense of shields as a possible heal alternative. Even with a hybrid specc it won't work. with curse, crit surge, streak and dark deal your mana pool is already very exhausted.

even if shields scale with dmg, i don't see any way to use them outside of a magicka sorc build.

Prisoner Rags (funzt auch in Rabebwacht ;D)

but this works a bit against your shields. there are several ways to avoid damage with sorc, stamina relies on speed, running out of sight and healing back up, magicka sorc relies much more on streak and less on sprinting for mobility, which is very mana intensive due to the increasing costs. alternatively, you can also sit out the damage to a certain degree by shield stacking, which is also very mana intensive.

what doesn't make sense is to sprint out of sight to then cast the shield, because behind the object, out of range you have to heal, not shield and sitting out the damage only works with shield stacking.

not to forget that Sorc currently works even in hybrid version only because you are extremely offensively skilled, of course you can put on reg and def sets, but then the damage is much lower and i don't see how you can even get someone with some advanced skill down with this META.

of course we don't know what ZOS has planned for the future and how skills might change, at least I don't see any synergies for a hybrid / Stam build with just scaling shields over damage.

AdamLAD

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Everything else can use everything else now due to hybridization. Why should shields or sorcerer be singled out. It happens all the time. For years sorcerer and Shields have gotten absolutely tarnished with hate. Even a day after murkmire which was a HUGE nerf to Shields people Still complained. What is the stigma ? I don't get it

PhoenixGrey

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Hybrid NB can infinitely cloak and shade without ramping cost and cast time

I see Bias against sorc as always

Aces-High-82

I just think that shields should offer other utilities rather than just a additional hp layer. As a magsorcs main myself I can show you multiple areas which the class is lacking but you have to be realistic - the devs won't overhaul the entire class so we can only hope for adjustment that can be implemented swiftly without much coding effort. In terms of shields that would be via the battle spirit debuff (lowered penalty or removed entirely). Imo we have already an unhealthy scaling environment, adding another component to it won't help improve combat for sure.

Aces-High-82

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Hybrid NB can infinitely cloak and shade without ramping cost and cast time

I see Bias against sorc as always

Maybe you should pay more attention who does participate in all the other magsorcs related threads and their comments.

PhoenixGrey

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Hybrid NB can infinitely cloak and shade without ramping cost and cast time

I see Bias against sorc as always

Maybe you should pay more attention who does participate in all the other magsorcs related threads and their comments.

I do pay attention and realize you are asking for just and fair changes

But NB never gets just and fair buffs so why should sorc ?

Sugram22

awry class is badly made, lame skills, 1example templar spear stab, u don't have spear as a weapon so this looks just dumb

also templar should have a lot skill trees if they want class sys not have magic skills that u can morph in to stam skills and wise versa, instead make different tree for magica templar dps

sorc has limited number of spells and no fire ball and ice lance (like large ice shard that fly's to enemy perching them), no elemental spells, staff has skill that has all 3 elements in1 and other skills paste on staff but no elemental magic on their own, its good that weapons have their skill lines but classes need to be more flexible like nightblade shouldn't be a mage but a rogue, awry class should have few base skills at the beginning but later learn from trainers different paths and some lead to stam builds that use bit magic to like cloak but so much more and no pointless skills u can choose (they are no longer class skills but trainer skills/guild skills) different skills, also meaning there will be so many unique chars, not awry rogue is like u, i like to be a mage like in skyrim and oblivion, it is possible to make, u don't need classes u need roles like tank dps and healer, u just need sys for that

dragon knight will be replaced with Dragonborn race who are ppl with dragon blood and racial draconic skills, including transform in to half dragon ur human size (slightly larger then normal) walk on 2legs and have wings, u have dragon scale body with dragon head to, wings u can use to jump and hover on air and move without legs, and racial skill also harden skin so it has some skills that benefit tanking to like DK class

so overall classes will be removed, but not roles, u still need tanks healer and DPS, trainer gives u default tank skill layout that u need, without what u would suck, but it gives u extra option and there needs to be sys in place so u wouldn't be able to build a god


so the game needs hole remake/remaster

IZZEFlameLash

EDIT: oops necro

Alchimiste1

The amount of bias in this thread is actually kind of funny.

First of all, magsorc damage is not bad, its actually pretty good. Its survivability is what hinders it. The reason people think magsorc has bad damage is honestly because it currently has the highest skill ceiling in the game. It's not even close fighting a good magsorc than a truly top tier magsorc.

Also, despite what most people here think magsorc is still one of the better specs for 1vX. Why you might feel its bad is because as a whole 1vX is more challenging than ever when all you run into are mdw and vate ice builds. 1vXing on anything these days feels insane. Most of you guys are also comparing it to nb 1vX, which admittedly is the best 1vX class currently. But in terms of 1vX rankings msorc isn't at the low end by any means. Simply put it just takes someone who really understand spacing and their burst timing.

Oblivion_Protocol

I think what people fail to realize is that Sorc isn’t a face-tanking brawler and never really will be. You play Sorc, that means accepting that your main form of defense is to Streak your butt off and use los/spacing to keep a distance between yourself and enemies. If you can’t do that, you’ll die.

There’s also the fact that Sorc burst damage is very much timed. You need to line up that Curse/Frag/Fury combo to kill tough targets, and not everyone can survive long enough to make that happen.

Turtle_Bot

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

You play Sorc, that means accepting that your main form of defense is to Streak your butt off and use los/spacing to keep a distance between yourself and enemies. If you can’t do that, you’ll die.

There-in lies the issue though, with how much (practically) free movement speed that has been given out over the past few years from the CP reworks, to mythics like wildhunt, traits like swift, skills like RaT and the general power creep of the other classes allowing them to spec much easier into speed without losing on anything significant has made keeping that distance for sorc next to impossible unless the sorc is doing nothing but running away from the fight (and even then the sorc cannot run away forever and the other classes can simply chase and kill the sorc once it runs out of magicka to streak.

In the meantime the other class will simply heal back up while chasing the sorc down because they all have the ability to instant cast heals while moving at full speed due to the lack of cast times on any of their abilities (let alone their heals) while sorc has to slow to a crawl to cast its heals because of the cast time.

Everyone knows that sorc is a kiting class, but it is not as good at kiting as it used to be thanks to the abundant speed creep and other power creep introduced over the years that allowed the other classes to easily catch up mobility wise with sorc, but has never given sorc anything to allow it to turn and face those other classes that can now easily keep up with it.

katorga

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

All u need to do for Shields is lower the cost and make them scale from damage and max stats just like healing. Problem solved

Nota a fan of that adjustment. Nobody wants to see viable shields on stamsorc which already has infinite sustain.

Viable shields on stamsorc is already in place. They scale off health, are an off stat resource. But why on earth would a stamsorc want to use a damage shield? They are across the board inferior to block casting a heal. Sorc shields are even inferior to Arcanist shields.

Now imagine if burst heals were subject to the arbitrary caps places on sorc shields?

Now imagine if Arcanist shields were subject to the arbitrary caps on sorc shields?

FoJul

Nyseto wrote: »

Everyone says it sucks, I thought everything is well balanced in eso. Is it the tanky meta or what?

Yo, magsorc is really strong, I don't know what person has told you otherwise.

If you give magsorc a burst heal that fits on one bar, Magsorc will be too strong.

I think if I wanted to have the most fun and the most kills in Cyrodil. I choose magsorc. As you can nuke someone shield and streak 7 times and dark deal all your mag back back.

To say magsorc sucks, just means your out of touch when it comes to PvP.

SandandStars

how do you streak 7 times?

Turtle_Bot

Not sure how streaking 7 times is possible, let alone on top of constantly casting shield and after casting the entire burst combo.

Even building for max mag (18k health) or pure sustain (4k+ regen and not in combat) only 6 casts of streak is possible before it's no longer possible to cast the ability anymore due to being out of mag and that was without casting shields or casting a combo before that.

Even casting mist for which is significantly cheaper to use than streak (like 25% cheaper) caps out at 6 casts before you're out of magicka and have to wait for the ramping cost to reset.

Anyone saying magsorc is in that strong of a place either has zero knowledge of playing the class or thinks its still 2018 ESO where streak didn't have ramping cost.

IZZEFlameLash

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure how streaking 7 times is possible, let alone on top of constantly casting shield and after casting the entire burst combo.

Even building for max mag (18k health) or pure sustain (4k+ regen and not in combat) only 6 casts of streak is possible before it's no longer possible to cast the ability anymore due to being out of mag and that was without casting shields or casting a combo before that.

Even casting mist for which is significantly cheaper to use than streak (like 25% cheaper) caps out at 6 casts before you're out of magicka and have to wait for the ramping cost to reset.

Anyone saying magsorc is in that strong of a place either has zero knowledge of playing the class or thinks its still 2018 ESO where streak didn't have ramping cost.

I believe Streak ramping cost was first introduced before 2018 though. I remember having that in 2015-2017. Was more of 50% increase if used within 4 seconds iirc. And yeah, it was also theoretically/practically impossible to Streak 7 times even then.

Vaqual

Oh no, a user utilized https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hyperbole on the elder scrolls forum. And that in a sorc thread

VinnyGambini

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure how streaking 7 times is possible, let alone on top of constantly casting shield and after casting the entire burst combo.

Even building for max mag (18k health) or pure sustain (4k+ regen and not in combat) only 6 casts of streak is possible before it's no longer possible to cast the ability anymore due to being out of mag and that was without casting shields or casting a combo before that.

Even casting mist for which is significantly cheaper to use than streak (like 25% cheaper) caps out at 6 casts before you're out of magicka and have to wait for the ramping cost to reset.

Anyone saying magsorc is in that strong of a place either has zero knowledge of playing the class or thinks its still 2018 ESO where streak didn't have ramping cost.

I'm 100% sure sorcerer is more than ok. With streak "infinite mobility" it's sorc who decides when fight begins, and when it ends. Somebody jumped on you? Just streak 3 times and you are safe. Other classes? You have to block heal and roll dodge, hide behind obstacles, and pray to survive. I am 100% positive, that sorcs mobility is much more reliable defense. And I am 100% positive, that if sorc receives burst heal to his kit, it will become most OP class in eso history.

Sorc has dmg and mobility. Weak heals, and tankiness.

As sorcerer, you have to kite. And hou have best tool in the game to effectively kite.

I have screenshots from bgs when 10ppl were playing sorcs - I wonder why? Once more - I'm 100% positive that sorcerer is S tier class.

Idinuse

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure how streaking 7 times is possible, let alone on top of constantly casting shield and after casting the entire burst combo.

Even building for max mag (18k health) or pure sustain (4k+ regen and not in combat) only 6 casts of streak is possible before it's no longer possible to cast the ability anymore due to being out of mag and that was without casting shields or casting a combo before that.

Even casting mist for which is significantly cheaper to use than streak (like 25% cheaper) caps out at 6 casts before you're out of magicka and have to wait for the ramping cost to reset.

Anyone saying magsorc is in that strong of a place either has zero knowledge of playing the class or thinks its still 2018 ESO where streak didn't have ramping cost.

It's because Stamina thinks everything is as cheap as Stamina skills and with Stamina build's endless resources. Not applicable on Magicka builds though, let me tell you. And with the ridiculous gap closers so called "Melee" weapons and stamina classes have, streak can be more of a self trapping than "controlling a fight". You end up drained of mag while being dawnbroken/brawled/executed/spin for win etc. (Just a tad of hyperbole).

Galeriano

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure how streaking 7 times is possible, let alone on top of constantly casting shield and after casting the entire burst combo.

Even building for max mag (18k health) or pure sustain (4k+ regen and not in combat) only 6 casts of streak is possible before it's no longer possible to cast the ability anymore due to being out of mag and that was without casting shields or casting a combo before that.

Even casting mist for which is significantly cheaper to use than streak (like 25% cheaper) caps out at 6 casts before you're out of magicka and have to wait for the ramping cost to reset.

Anyone saying magsorc is in that strong of a place either has zero knowledge of playing the class or thinks its still 2018 ESO where streak didn't have ramping cost.

I believe Streak ramping cost was first introduced before 2018 though. I remember having that in 2015-2017. Was more of 50% increase if used within 4 seconds iirc. And yeah, it was also theoretically/practically impossible to Streak 7 times even then.

Streak ramping cost was always a thing on live servers but in first version it was just flat +50% cost of the base ability for every streak used when You had cost increase debuff. They changed it to +50% on every streak because You actually could streak 7 times in a row.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The amount of bias in this thread is actually kind of funny.

First of all, magsorc damage is not bad, its actually pretty good. Its survivability is what hinders it. The reason people think magsorc has bad damage is honestly because it currently has the highest skill ceiling in the game. It's not even close fighting a good magsorc than a truly top tier magsorc.

Also, despite what most people here think magsorc is still one of the better specs for 1vX. Why you might feel its bad is because as a whole 1vX is more challenging than ever when all you run into are mdw and vate ice builds. 1vXing on anything these days feels insane. Most of you guys are also comparing it to nb 1vX, which admittedly is the best 1vX class currently. But in terms of 1vX rankings msorc isn't at the low end by any means. Simply put it just takes someone who really understand spacing and their burst timing.

This is not exactly true regarding 1vx depending on what you consider a viable or fun 1vx. NB will have more potential to just stay in an area and deal heavy damage while avoiding damage. As a magsorc you'll have to run a lot and hope your enemy hasn't invested in movement speed or a build like a tanky Arcanist that can still do damage and run you out of resources. There are a lot of ways to explain this but I'll simply say that if you take the same outnumbered fight and just try it with a NB then a sorc you'll see a big difference in ability to stay in the fight vs just running around. And I'm not saying both can't win the fight but just saying for some it's not but as fun to have to run around and hope your enemy isn't either fast, which is easily achieved, a meta high damage/ mitigation build, know how to roll well, etc. These things would still trouble the NB but not by as much of a factor because they have higher more reliable damage and healing by a large factor.


Yes, can you roll up on 2 or three randoms and blow them out of the water as a sorc, sure, but what were talking about her is when you run up on one or two people that have even a degree of experience and meta builds. The sorcerer kit starts to really show limitations fairly quickly.

Bushido2513

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I think what people fail to realize is that Sorc isn’t a face-tanking brawler and never really will be. You play Sorc, that means accepting that your main form of defense is to Streak your butt off and use los/spacing to keep a distance between yourself and enemies. If you can’t do that, you’ll die.

There’s also the fact that Sorc burst damage is very much timed. You need to line up that Curse/Frag/Fury combo to kill tough targets, and not everyone can survive long enough to make that happen.

It's fine to say the sorc is the ranged burst class and that you need to play well to get kills but my problem is that a good amount of the kit is able to be dodged or a avoided and that's if you're not up against a class that can just block or shrug off the hits. Currently multiple classes are able to just deal with sorc damage fairly easily. For reference I'm speaking of equally skilled players where class and build become the factors.

Arcanist, DK, NB, and plar have great kits for working around sorc burst even when your timing, build, etc are all on point.

I think people on here aren't specific about the matchups they talk about so yeah in some respects sorc can look like a killing machine but in others that aren't even that uncommon, the sorc kit quickly shows limitations.

So I can see people saying don't give them extra damage or healing but I'd also ask are those people being realistic about how sorc matches up to the most common actual scenarios?