Suggestion on dmg resistance

VinnyGambini

I have been playing ESO for some months now, and the dmg resistance formula in pvp IMO is a bit unbalanced.

Example: Lets say I want to play as tank, most tanky as possible. So I got like 40k armor, resulting in 50% reduction - seems nice.

But let's now make contrary example: My opponent wants to play bowman, he doesn't care about defenses, because he kites, uses invisibility etc. He goes full dmg. That gives him about double wep dmg than above tank, over 100% crit dmg, some penetration etc. ALSO, going full dmg, gives you full healing.

So basically if 2 above duel, tank has no chance of winning - just 50% dmg reduction is not enough to stop full dmg build, and tank's dmg will be to low to kill bowman. And don't say that I'm wrong - I'm not blind, 80% of the players are playing ranged, NB with bows, templars bith bows, sorcerers with bows. I see almost no meele classes in PvP besides dragonknights.

Suggestion to make it work better:

Currently 33k armor gives 50% reduction - change it to for example 70%. To balance the change decrease vampire undeath passive to 20% (many players crying about this), and decrease dmg reduction in PvP from 50% to 40%.

This change will be neutral for balanced builds, full tanks will become maybe little more tanky, while full dmg builds will receive big nerf to survivability - so it will be more risky to play.

What do you think?

Sergykid

so you want to make tanks tankier and damagers squishier?

tanking is decent now, no changes needed. If you have built specifically for a full tank then u will just stalemate against anyone, why would u want to also be able to make kills?
add some damage in ur build then. There's plenty of defense without sets and line of sight is the biggest mitigation.

yes damage builds survive too easy right now, but giving damage to tanks in order to compensate for this is not the good idea

gariondavey

You can build 7k wd + 30k resists pretty easily, not to mention adding in busted carry sets on top of that

fred4

VinnyGambini wrote: »

What do you think?

I think you're inexperienced.

1. Being tanky comes from blocking and sustaining block. Blocking alone can mitigate up to about 80% of damage. Resistances deliberately aren't all that. (I happen to agree with something you actively do and have to sustain offering the highest mitigation, rather than being passively tanky from resistances).
2. You have to build beyond the 33K resistance cap to feel truly tanky from resistances in PvP, because of penetration. At 40K I suppose you've already copped on to that, although the cut off point where resistances feel like they make no further difference in PvP is more like 45K.
3. Feeling tanky in PvP is more about high health and healing anyway (in combination with some passive tankiness). Try Mara's Balm instead of Pariah. Try Cyrodiil's Crest. Try Juggernaut. Use healing skills that scale with health, if you want to be a pure tank (or even just a warden). You may also still build for 4K+ health regen in PvP, albeit that involves Sithis (among other things) and you wouldn't be able to block.

If you're not in Ravenwatch, try Rallying Cry (one bar is sufficient), Mara's Balm on both bars, 1H+Shield on one of your bars. That's the tanky brawler option. I'm not sure what people run for outright tanking, but it can already be done. I have friends who do it, holding off 15 random players forever, or 2 to 3 tryhard experienced ones. One option is Mist Form, another is lowering your block cost. You're shooting for a block cost below 400. An off meta way of doing that is to back bar an overland set called Steadfast's Mettle, all Sturdy, mostly medium armor, slot Defensive Stance and some block cost reduction jewelry. There is a case to be made for heavy armor's sustain from taking damage, health and superior healing, but the block cost reduction is on medium armor.

If you're on PC, get Miat's PvP Alerts addon. The first attack from a new player on the scene generates a "ding" sound. When you hear that sound from Miat's, you dodge roll or block. This will mitigate 95% of gank attempts. It also helps with situational awareness in larger fights. When you hear "ding, ding, ding", you know that you're suddenly being focused and it's time to go into defensive mode, e.g. block-healing, or to dodge roll and sprint towards a line-of-sight opportunity.

VinnyGambini

Guys, I'm not sure if you understand me right. I'm not crying about being deleted, I understand, that you have to block to survive, I have no problem with that.

The problem I adress here is quite different. I am talking mostly about melee vs ranged duel.

I think it's unfair that ranged classes can just mash one button (spammable ability) and they easily hit 5k, or 8k crits. As a melee class, you have to block, heal, and chase them at the same time. It just feels unfair.

Even running nord+dragonknigh+vampire lvl3+bloodspawn+reinforced gallant chain+impenetrable traits, archers easily hit like 5-10k, when other DKs or wardens hit me maybe 4k-6k.

The problem I adress here is ranged classes build glass cannon, because they are kiting anyway, and it feels really unfair, that they get 100000 kills by just mashing 1 button from distance.

Maybe resistance idea is not the solution, but I feel that ranged classes have huge advantage over melee classes. Am I wrong?

Dirt_Rooster

The damage from snipers is predictable and easily avoided. Close the distance and watch how easily they melt. Prevent them from escaping by using stuff like flare/camo hunter.

fred4

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Guys, I'm not sure if you understand me right. I'm not crying about being deleted, I understand, that you have to block to survive, I have no problem with that.

The problem I adress here is quite different. I am talking mostly about melee vs ranged duel.

I think it's unfair that ranged classes can just mash one button (spammable ability) and they easily hit 5k, or 8k crits. As a melee class, you have to block, heal, and chase them at the same time. It just feels unfair.

Even running nord+dragonknigh+vampire lvl3+bloodspawn+reinforced gallant chain+impenetrable traits, archers easily hit like 5-10k, when other DKs or wardens hit me maybe 4k-6k.

The problem I adress here is ranged classes build glass cannon, because they are kiting anyway, and it feels really unfair, that they get 100000 kills by just mashing 1 button from distance.

Maybe resistance idea is not the solution, but I feel that ranged classes have huge advantage over melee classes. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are. I'd be lying if I said I haven't been hit with, for example, insane sorc Overload crits on occasion. These have, however, been outliers. It doesn't happen very often. The sorc in question was, by the looks of it, in a group, possibly receiving group buffs like in an organised trial group. Other than that, ranged classes cannot just spam a single button. On a typical day, ranged attacks per se are a non-issue. I play magplar (melee), stamsorc (melee), stam DK (melee) and magblade (hybrid melee / ranged) in open world, e.g. CP IC and CP Cyro.

Yes, you need to dodge, block, streak, cloak, heal back up, whatever. Especially nowadays. In older days you might also have shielded.

People having issues with Snipe is nothing new, but Snipe is pretty nerfed when put in historical context.

Ranged classes do have an advantage in open field. If you find yourself, say, on an open BG map on a melee class, you already know you're at a disadvantage. I heard someone else say as much who plays more BGs than I do. The melee brawler classes, on the other hand, thrive in resource towers and other confined places. Anything will do, though. Rocks, trees. Line of sight is terribly important. That actually goes for everyone. Two strictly ranged players playing peekaboo at range would stalemate. This is where melee players have their advantage. By pursuing someone at melee range, you get access to them. It becomes harder for them to LoS. While experienced players may still do that all day by running around a tree, playing melee generally makes it easier to deal with players that LoS a lot. That is why you play melee and why ranged playstyles do not have a clear advantage. By the way, I do not buy the latter hit harder. You can run into harder-hitting, better built, perhaps squishy players that outplay you all day, some days. Longer term that's not been my experience.

Snipe, in particular, is not a skill I'd want to play in melee range, because you can't block while casting it.

You might ask "how do I get into melee range?". You have a couple of options:

• Play a high mobility build. Use Race Against Time, a bow (Major Expedition), Celerity CP, medium armor (for sprint speed), Swift jewelry, and/or the Wild Hunt ring as needed, wherever you want to strike the balance. Use class skills, such as Streak and Toppling Charge. This is generally what I do.
• Use gap closers. This is kind of rare, compared to how it used to be, outside perhaps of Toppling Charge. Gap closers received ZOS' patented 400ms delay treatment some time ago, which makes them feel bad, prone to issues in lag, experiencing positional desyncs that make them unreliable. They are also prone to a bug that may disable them in IC and BGs from time to time. The most prominent example of that is Dragon Leap.
• Let targets come to you. Lure them into buildings or otherwise favorable terrain. This is how you (must) play when you are slow. If you don't know at all times where the nearest LoS opportunity is, if you don't know which direction to dodge roll once or twice to get there, if you don't hug walls or move from terrain feature to terrain feature at all times, then the game will be hard for you. This, incidentally, does not just go for melee classes. This is true for cloaking nightblades, if not quite as important, and even for streaking sorcs, who have healing issues in open field. Dark Deal, their only burst heal finding room on the skill bar in many builds, is channeled. LoS is the best way to make it work reliably (if you interrupt a Dark Dealing sorc, that skill goes on cooldown for something like 3 seconds).
• Special mention to DK as a counter puncher. That class is very much about letting others be the aggressors, letting the fight come to you. It need not be, but if you lack speed, I recommend you appear passive and just LoS a bit. The traditional playstyle as a mag DK includes Talons, Fossilize, Whip once the enemy gets near. DK has all manner of locking people down and they have a powerful 2m reach extension on melee skills. Not that you necessarily need to lock people down. If someone tries to back off, because they have taken damage, that's when you leap. Leap hits hard, is a CC, and combos guaranteed into an execute or a procced Molten Whip without the target having counterplay at that moment unless they are CC immune.

fred4

@VinnyGambini on a more personal note I took my stam DK, which I hadn't played in a long time, into CP IC today. The place was busy, but I was unable to verify our respective positions. My problems included playing against an organised group, sustain issues on an unrefined build, lack of practice and healing from some DOTs. I can't say that ranged attacks were a factor, but then again there wasn't much of that happening there, today. However blocking on DK with low block cost felt extremely strong the one time I was hit by Ballista and other ranged attacks from one player. I still died a lot as I was trying to work out my rotation. Did I do well today on DK? No, but not for the reasons you posit. Those came out of left field for me and, judging by how DK is regarded in recent patches (and is typically melee), I suspect that may be the same for others. DK is regarded as strong right now, but what do I know.

LittlePinkDot

gariondavey wrote: »

You can build 7k wd + 30k resists pretty easily, not to mention adding in busted carry sets on top of that

Is that buffed or unbuffed?

gariondavey

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You can build 7k wd + 30k resists pretty easily, not to mention adding in busted carry sets on top of that

Is that buffed or unbuffed?

Self buffed, major resolve + major brutality/sorcery. Basic stuff

fred4

gariondavey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You can build 7k wd + 30k resists pretty easily, not to mention adding in busted carry sets on top of that

Is that buffed or unbuffed?

Self buffed, major resolve + major brutality/sorcery. Basic stuff

Can we get a yes / no on the following, just to see how situational this is:

• Minor Brutality / Sorcery
• Continuous Attack
• Back bar (Infused) weapon damage enchant
• Grim Focus stacks
• Vampire just out of stealth bonus
• Vateshran 2H stacks
• Molten Whip proc
• Primary resource sustain number (state whether with / without potion and Continuous Attack)
• In CP or no CP
• Anything else

I think that's what Little Pink DOT was driving at. I've certainly built a stamplar who has up to 8K spell damage with decent sustain, but not 30K resistances. Their base spell damage is just under 5K, though, and I'm not adding "busted carry (proc) sets". I'm using weapon / spell damage sets.

Sergykid

what r u talking about, nobody dies 1v1 if they don't want to.
and against ranged u can even just stand still and outheal its damage.

what u r lacking is self heal and or sustaining that healing.

running behind a pillar is the best mitigation u can get and ranged has nothing to do against it.
U can use gap closer ability or speed to chase if u want to face fight ranged as melee.

birdik

omg tank have problems!

In meta where you can just block and heals to dea.. woops no

MEBengalsFan2001

I see two changes to the game that could improve PVP.


First thing is healing should not scale with weapon/spell damage and stamina/magic. It should only use stamina/magic. This way damage dealers running around with a low resource pool like 22K magic or stamina but high damage say 6K weapon damage won't be able to get those big heals any more, going from near death to full health will be a thing of the past.

Second thing, roles should matter when in PVP zones. Being a healer or tank should impact your stats differently than being a damage dealer in PVP. It should make it so that a healer truly can heal better than a damage dealer.

This would improve the problem of DPS going from near death to full health in PVP.

VinnyGambini

Sergykid wrote: »

what r u talking about, nobody dies 1v1 if they don't want to.
and against ranged u can even just stand still and outheal its damage.

what u r lacking is self heal and or sustaining that healing.

running behind a pillar is the best mitigation u can get and ranged has nothing to do against it.
U can use gap closer ability or speed to chase if u want to face fight ranged as melee.

Yea, sure, especially when you are hit by 7k lethal arrow, which is spammable, ranged AND lower you self healing. Considering constant light attack>lethal arrow means I have to outheal 8k dps (So I need to spam my burst heal, and I will burn all my mana). Or I can block and I have to outheal 2k (but I can't chase while blocking + I will be out of stamina sooner or later). Or I can use gap closer, but he will go invisible anyway and again go ranged, or he will warp and go ranged. Or I can go gap closer + flare for example, which will ruin my build, because I need to sacrifice other skills on my bar.

Personally, what I figured out, the most effective strategy is to dodge roll behing some obstacle (give up). Trying to kill your ranged opponent is death sentence. I have seen thousands of battlegrounds with sorcerers going 20-0, and bow nightblades also 20-0. They seem basically uncatchable.

To those saying about tank meta crying:

I'm not crying, I like the game and the PvP. I played other MMO's and eso feels like everyone plays ranged. Something seems unbalanced.

gariondavey

fred4 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You can build 7k wd + 30k resists pretty easily, not to mention adding in busted carry sets on top of that

Is that buffed or unbuffed?

Self buffed, major resolve + major brutality/sorcery. Basic stuff

Can we get a yes / no on the following, just to see how situational this is:

• Minor Brutality / Sorcery
• Continuous Attack
• Back bar (Infused) weapon damage enchant
• Grim Focus stacks
• Vampire just out of stealth bonus
• Vateshran 2H stacks
• Molten Whip proc
• Primary resource sustain number (state whether with / without potion and Continuous Attack)
• In CP or no CP
• Anything else

I think that's what Little Pink DOT was driving at. I've certainly built a stamplar who has up to 8K spell damage with decent sustain, but not 30K resistances. Their base spell damage is just under 5K, though, and I'm not adding "busted carry (proc) sets". I'm using weapon / spell damage sets.

Yeah I mean even in rw you can have 7k spell damage on a templar without continuous up, and with 30k resists.

malistorr

I actually play the game, a lot. I'm top 10 and many times top 5 every month. I am 100% damage nightblade and come across many tanky healbots (the current meta) that I cannot come close to killing. All I can say is you haven't found a good build yet because I come across people I can't kill (or can't even get their health below 70%) many times each night. If anything, tanks and healing needs to be nerfed. There should not be players where it takes 5-10 good opponents to kill but I see that every night. The meta is too tanky and too much healing right now. If you don't agree you must have a really bad build or you're playing a different game.

VinnyGambini

malistorr wrote: »

I actually play the game, a lot. I'm top 10 and many times top 5 every month. I am 100% damage nightblade and come across many tanky healbots (the current meta) that I cannot come close to killing. All I can say is you haven't found a good build yet because I come across people I can't kill (or can't even get their health below 70%) many times each night. If anything, tanks and healing needs to be nerfed. There should not be players where it takes 5-10 good opponents to kill but I see that every night. The meta is too tanky and too much healing right now. If you don't agree you must have a really bad build or you're playing a different game.

FYI - I have 28k resists, vamp stage 3, and 1800 crit resist. NIghtblades can crit me 10k without problems.

Even using cinder storm + Vigor+ spamming coagulating blood, 2 good nightblades can burst me down.

If you really need 5-10 allies to kill a tanky opponent, you must have a really bad build or you're playing a different game.

Anyway, I think we can end discussion here, as it leads nowhere. Nobody actually responded to my argument that every day I see ranged classes going 20-0 battlegrounds, while melee classes are nowhere close. And I'm not talking about myself, these are the numbers I see everyday playing BG.

malistorr

I guess you've never head of Corrosive Armor, Mara's Balm, or 1 of the other several ways that tanky players withstand beatings these days. I have about as high damage as possible for single target and there are ways other players take only a few hundred damage per attack I do. Considering snipe and it's morphs is a very slow skill that can only hit a target about every 3-seconds, the horrible server performance which slows bow attack speed to a crawl, and the crazy high heals available in the game, it's really easy to stay alive in this tank bot meta. I've never been a tank but I come across some very good ones that only go down after about 3-minutes of being beat on by 10+ players. I'm not exagerrating. I'm sorry if you don't believe me. I'm telling you what I've seen with my own eyes several times. I play PVP in Cyrodiil 20-40 hrs/week.

It's definitely possible that ranged builds/attacks are more powerful than melee. I don't play melee so I can't really compare. The game changes so often and the meta swings all over the place throughout the years. Nightblades with bows were the meta about 3-years ago and all the proc sets and other factors that caused the huge gank-blade trend were nerfed into the ground. Most powerful nightblades these days are melee/magblade and not bow-users.

Crow_IX

Sergykid wrote: »

so you want to make tanks tankier and damagers squishier?

tanking is decent now, no changes needed. If you have built specifically for a full tank then u will just stalemate against anyone, why would u want to also be able to make kills?
add some damage in ur build then. There's plenty of defense without sets and line of sight is the biggest mitigation.

yes damage builds survive too easy right now, but giving damage to tanks in order to compensate for this is not the good idea

this is wrong. the game allows tanks to do just as much if not more damage than an actually dps class/build. there is a big problem with survivability and damage right now and it mostly falls down to players running the same 10 or 12 sets, 3 or 4 builds. tanking is not decent, it is too strong and they need to reduce the capability of damage on tank builds and the only way to do that is to nerf proc sets but that is not going to happen because the game relies on hand holding via proc sets. so we are stuck. also most damage mitigation sets arent that great, only a couple are good. i.e. ancient dragonguard is useless, but appears good.

Sergykid

Crow_IX wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

so you want to make tanks tankier and damagers squishier?

tanking is decent now, no changes needed. If you have built specifically for a full tank then u will just stalemate against anyone, why would u want to also be able to make kills?
add some damage in ur build then. There's plenty of defense without sets and line of sight is the biggest mitigation.

yes damage builds survive too easy right now, but giving damage to tanks in order to compensate for this is not the good idea

this is wrong. the game allows tanks to do just as much if not more damage than an actually dps class/build. there is a big problem with survivability and damage right now and it mostly falls down to players running the same 10 or 12 sets, 3 or 4 builds. tanking is not decent, it is too strong and they need to reduce the capability of damage on tank builds and the only way to do that is to nerf proc sets but that is not going to happen because the game relies on hand holding via proc sets. so we are stuck. also most damage mitigation sets arent that great, only a couple are good. i.e. ancient dragonguard is useless, but appears good.

what u see in tanks doing damage is cuz target has no defense. For silly example, i do 50 damage and have 100 defense, u do 100 damage and have 50 defense, we both are going to hit eachother the same.
why do u think players build for damage if it's so useless? they just build both damage and defense to not lack in either category

Luede

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

what r u talking about, nobody dies 1v1 if they don't want to.
and against ranged u can even just stand still and outheal its damage.

what u r lacking is self heal and or sustaining that healing.

running behind a pillar is the best mitigation u can get and ranged has nothing to do against it.
U can use gap closer ability or speed to chase if u want to face fight ranged as melee.

Yea, sure, especially when you are hit by 7k lethal arrow, which is spammable, ranged AND lower you self healing. Considering constant light attack>lethal arrow means I have to outheal 8k dps (So I need to spam my burst heal, and I will burn all my mana). Or I can block and I have to outheal 2k (but I can't chase while blocking + I will be out of stamina sooner or later). Or I can use gap closer, but he will go invisible anyway and again go ranged, or he will warp and go ranged. Or I can go gap closer + flare for example, which will ruin my build, because I need to sacrifice other skills on my bar.

Personally, what I figured out, the most effective strategy is to dodge roll behing some obstacle (give up). Trying to kill your ranged opponent is death sentence. I have seen thousands of battlegrounds with sorcerers going 20-0, and bow nightblades also 20-0. They seem basically uncatchable.

To those saying about tank meta crying:

I'm not crying, I like the game and the PvP. I played other MMO's and eso feels like everyone plays ranged. Something seems unbalanced.

to get good at pvp you need a lot of experience and time and patience. what keeps you alive is not pure stats, but the right actions. if you have no stamina or magicka left, you will die, no matter what build you play. so in the end you are more tanky if you have more stamina / magicka reg. and also the ability to heal well (more wp/spell dmg).

so build your tank right to be able to tank, just going for armor and life is not necessarily tanky.

Meurto

VinnyGambini wrote: »

malistorr wrote: »

I actually play the game, a lot. I'm top 10 and many times top 5 every month. I am 100% damage nightblade and come across many tanky healbots (the current meta) that I cannot come close to killing. All I can say is you haven't found a good build yet because I come across people I can't kill (or can't even get their health below 70%) many times each night. If anything, tanks and healing needs to be nerfed. There should not be players where it takes 5-10 good opponents to kill but I see that every night. The meta is too tanky and too much healing right now. If you don't agree you must have a really bad build or you're playing a different game.

FYI - I have 28k resists, vamp stage 3, and 1800 crit resist. NIghtblades can crit me 10k without problems.

Even using cinder storm + Vigor+ spamming coagulating blood, 2 good nightblades can burst me down.

If you really need 5-10 allies to kill a tanky opponent, you must have a really bad build or you're playing a different game.

Anyway, I think we can end discussion here, as it leads nowhere. Nobody actually responded to my argument that every day I see ranged classes going 20-0 battlegrounds, while melee classes are nowhere close. And I'm not talking about myself, these are the numbers I see everyday playing BG.

I will respond to your first part and then the ranged BG part.

I think most people who are experienced in higher MMR and cp cyrodiil will agree that you can build to do everything rather well (tankiness, healing, dmg and sustain). There is a reason we are seeing a ton of DKs and wardens because with some of the busted sets and class kits they take a lot while also putting out some real punishment. Obviously there are some players that are better than others, but the floor has been raised considerably here.

As far as BGs goes it is all about the opportunity. The ranged bow players are typically hiding in the back waiting for you to engage someone else and if you lose track or are unaware they can be a problem. Typically you can outheal/mitigate alot of the dmg, but a couple well timed snipes from 2 or more players can be a problem. In higher MMR no one is dying to range and it is extremely rare to run into any ranged bow players as they typically die in seconds.