Let's talk about vigor healing more than regeneration

Cast_El

What do you think about it?

Regeneration requires a resto staff and don't always proc on yourself. Healing is weak since U35.

Vigor always proc on yourself, doesn't require resto staff, so you can use shield or ice staff. Healing is way better than regeneration, (1,5 better I guess). And you get minor resolve buff.

Is it normal ? And balanced ?

AdamLAD

Healing in general needs to be absolutely gutted in PvP. However is its skill vs skill. Vigor vs Regeneration then yes Vigor is clearly way stronger than Regeneration. The only thing that I can see as to why Vigor is stronger in many areas is because regeneration can cross heal and has range and can stack. However if everyone runs Vigor (which they do) those extra elements of Regeneration become close to nil in terms of power in comparison.

mmtaniac

Healing should scale from stats and healing power not from damage.

Sergykid

there's more things here, vigor has different cost, targeting, duration.
i guess u talk about radiating regen, it can heal three players so it has more healing in the bucket, magicka is easier to refill
and rapid regen can not only be shared but placed on multiple players at once too

vigor was barely equal to those and only got equal with the minor buff added. They also already nerfed the heal.
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Tommy_The_Gun

AdamLAD wrote: »

Healing in general needs to be absolutely gutted in PvP.

Maybe, but the real problem imho in PvP are Ball groups that can out-heal 20+ sieges. Solos or zergs or zerg surfers can not do that and despite healing being high they still die like flies. Ball groups on the other hand can (as usual) abuse stuff. That is imho the primary balance issue when it comes to PvP. You can not balance stuff as long as you don't address the elephant in the room (ball groups) and how they can somehow scale stuff to have 1000% boost lol.

OBJnoob

Does it need to be balanced though? Everybody can use vigor... No class, weapon, or special requirement of any kind. Isn't that... Balance?

VaranisArano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Healing in general needs to be absolutely gutted in PvP.

Maybe, but the real problem imho in PvP are Ball groups that can out-heal 20+ sieges. Solos or zergs or zerg surfers can not do that and despite healing being high they still die like flies. Ball groups on the other hand can (as usual) abuse stuff. That is imho the primary balance issue when it comes to PvP. You can not balance stuff as long as you don't address the elephant in the room (ball groups) and how they can somehow scale stuff to have 1000% boost lol.

That's just what happens when you've got 12 players who stick close enough to be in range of gear sets designed to support groups. You can have enough specialization to run those support sets, maybe some dedicated healers, and enough people getting their damage on target that it doesn't matter if they all back-bar a resto staff. It becomes synergistic to the point that it's hard to unravel.

Before my guild moved to New World thanks to performance issues, I was a guild raid healer, and that's more or less how we healed through the buffed siege during Summerset's patch.


When it comes to the synergistic effect of support sets, I almost think ZOS would do better to extend the range. When I healed PUGs, there was no point to wearing my support sets because the group was so spread out. So you're absolutely right that players who aren't tightly coordinated never manage to "scale up" these heal-spam tactics. If ZOS were willing to extend the range, maybe PUGs could actually start using those sets (IF they wanted to, which is a big caveat.)

That's only part of it, of course. Organized raids spam heals because the cost is effectively spread out across 12 players instead of one PUG healer valiantly burning through their magicka to heal. Non-healer group members work their group-oriented heal into their rotation, ensuring that their group mates are topped off and the dedicated healers don't have to burn through their magicka to survive siege fire. It's very much a synergistic group effort to stand there and take the damage from coordinated siege weapons.

Most PUGs tend to heal when they themselves need it, without thinking about keeping nearby players topped up. So when they come under coordinated siege fire, either they GTFO or they die.

gariondavey

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

WrathOfInnos

They fill different roles, one is intended to heal allies while the other is a self heal. If you only want a reliable self-heal then vigor is the obvious choice, it never hits someone else and allows you to use any weapon type.

Kartalin

gariondavey wrote: »

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

Agreed, but at the same time we can still run vigor on a magicka leaning build that lets it use maybe sword and board back bar and not be tied to a resto

gariondavey

One can argue radiating regen is intended to heal allies.
I've never seen anyone use rapid regen since the rework. So my comment would help it to be actually used.

Thecompton73

gariondavey wrote: »

One can argue radiating regen is intended to heal allies.
I've never seen anyone use rapid regen since the rework. So my comment would help it to be actually used.

Yep, there really is no situation that calls for using rapid regen as is. Unless completely alone the targeting is just too unreliable as an emergency lifer saver when running solo and gets worse the more allies are nearby. Plus it's incredibly inefficient to use as a dedicated healer, even in a small group. There would be nothing lost at all if it was made into a self heal.

LittlePinkDot

gariondavey wrote: »

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

I think rapid regen was intended for the Dungeon Healer role, not PvP.

Thecompton73

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

I think rapid regen was intended for the Dungeon Healer role, not PvP.

I don't think dungeon healer's use it either though. Radiating hits 3 group members so it's more effcient and the duration makes it much easier to work into a rotation of other HOT's and buffs.

WrathOfInnos

Thecompton73 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

I think rapid regen was intended for the Dungeon Healer role, not PvP.

I don't think dungeon healer's use it either though. Radiating hits 3 group members so it's more effcient and the duration makes it much easier to work into a rotation of other HOT's and buffs.

I agree they don't use it, but I think the intent was to give a smart-targeted panic heal to classes that don't have one. Something to press when you see a health bar drop low in group frames, but don't have time to find them with combat prayer. IMO the skill missed the mark, and healing ward serves the same purpose better.

Sergykid

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Would be cool if rapid regen had a similar tooltip to resolving vigor but only could be cast on yourself

I think rapid regen was intended for the Dungeon Healer role, not PvP.

I don't think dungeon healer's use it either though. Radiating hits 3 group members so it's more effcient and the duration makes it much easier to work into a rotation of other HOT's and buffs.

I agree they don't use it, but I think the intent was to give a smart-targeted panic heal to classes that don't have one. Something to press when you see a health bar drop low in group frames, but don't have time to find them with combat prayer. IMO the skill missed the mark, and healing ward serves the same purpose better.

a hot is not a panic heal, the ward is for that.
Previously it had a big heal attached to proc when under % hp or have debuff or something don't remember, the old morph was used for that and after that they made it hot only.

it should have some effect like cleanse a debuff at end of duration and work at recast too, and only affect players in front of you like templar direct heal does for example, so u can control when to hit yourself only

MEBengalsFan2001

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Healing in general needs to be absolutely gutted in PvP.

Maybe, but the real problem imho in PvP are Ball groups that can out-heal 20+ sieges. Solos or zergs or zerg surfers can not do that and despite healing being high they still die like flies. Ball groups on the other hand can (as usual) abuse stuff. That is imho the primary balance issue when it comes to PvP. You can not balance stuff as long as you don't address the elephant in the room (ball groups) and how they can somehow scale stuff to have 1000% boost lol.

HoT stacking of the same skill is one of the many issues. Removing HoT stacking, updating healing to run on resources only and making roles matter would greatly improve PVP IMO. No more damage dealers with high resistance, high heals and high damage output.

If the devs made roles specific buff/debuffs in PVP you would see a big swing in how this game is played.

malistorr

They just nerfed vigor. But since you apparently don't want to use it you complain for a nerf. Adapt or die in PVP. If a skill or gear set is OP then use it yourself and benefit instead of complaining.

Cast_El

malistorr wrote: »

They just nerfed vigor. But since you apparently don't want to use it you complain for a nerf. Adapt or die in PVP. If a skill or gear set is OP then use it yourself and benefit instead of complaining.

Playing mara, vatehraan staff, and rally cry at the same time is OP. But not enjoyable.

Meta chaser player don't know how to play without those OP set. Those player were not able to play when proc were disabled .But that's another topic.

I play Magicka and I use vigor because it' so strong right now. It seems weird than vigor heal so much more than a restoration skill

OBJnoob

Most heals heal more than restoration skills honestly. Is there a class without a burst heal stronger than blessing of restoration? Honest question-- I don't know.

And that's because people complain when weapon skills are better than class skills.

Comparing a resto skill to an alliance skill though... I don't see the big fuss. Everybody can use both if they want so why does it matter?

I guess the argument is that it gives stam toons an edge over mag toons... But honestly mag toons needing to build for the occasional roll dodge or break free isn't new, and since hybridization I would hope everyone has about perfected that balance by now.

You know what was tricky back in the day? Playing a stam melee toon and having to manage stamina for offense and core combat abilities while simultaneously using magic to buff and heal yourself.

Running out of stam means you're dead. Running out of magicka means you need to heavy attacks. Get more stam recovery!

IZZEFlameLash

It's been this way for a long time. Resto heals cannot compete against this muscle healing juice. Before hybridization, I experimented with this on magicka specs and still gave me just as much heals as Rapid Regen without being a stam spec which surprised me. Now, it gives even bigger heal because, hybridization and is somewhat of a must have heal. Back then, I wished for magicka morph of Vigor, now, I guess there's no need but comparing this to Resto, a dedicated healing line, Resto loses hands down outside of in group HoT stacking situations in terms of usefulness.

AndreNoir

OBJnoob wrote: »

Comparing a resto skill to an alliance skill though... I don't see the big fuss. Everybody can use both if they want so why does it matter?

Because rapid regen tied to restro weapon comes without any buffs and worse then vigor. While vigor is stronger, provide needless buff on it and u can slot it without any sacrifices

OBJnoob

I'm confused. The buff vigor provides is needless? Or you wish rapid Regen had the same buff? The resto staff does offer a skill with that same buff it's called blessing of restoration.

Vigor is a solo heal and Regen is a heal that can hit someone else. Which is another way of saying you can only ever have one vigor on you at a time but you can in theory have multiple regens.

I think that's why it got nerfed and vigor got buffed-- there's enough cross healing in this game already.

The skills are meant for different things is one reason why I don't think they need to be balanced against each other. Also, everybody has access to both, is another reason why I don't think they need to be balanced.

If you think about it the whole resto staff line is kinda for healing other people.

Do you realize how few heals cost stamina instead of magicka? ALL class burst heals cost magicka. Stam has like... Does the sorc clannfear cost stam? Don't quite remember... But nobody really uses it. Not sure how many people use Rally anymore either. Or the warden stam mushroom heal... Don't think anyone uses it.

Soraka

It would be nice to see more stamina heal options

LittlePinkDot

OBJnoob wrote: »

Most heals heal more than restoration skills honestly. Is there a class without a burst heal stronger than blessing of restoration? Honest question-- I don't know.

And that's because people complain when weapon skills are better than class skills.

Comparing a resto skill to an alliance skill though... I don't see the big fuss. Everybody can use both if they want so why does it matter?

I guess the argument is that it gives stam toons an edge over mag toons... But honestly mag toons needing to build for the occasional roll dodge or break free isn't new, and since hybridization I would hope everyone has about perfected that balance by now.

You know what was tricky back in the day? Playing a stam melee toon and having to manage stamina for offense and core combat abilities while simultaneously using magic to buff and heal yourself.

Running out of stam means you're dead. Running out of magicka means you need to heavy attacks. Get more stam recovery!

Sorc doesn't have a class burst heal.

OBJnoob

Yes they do. They have the twilight matriarch and they also have dark deal. I understand these skills aren't ideal but they 100% have a burst heal.

LittlePinkDot

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes they do. They have the twilight matriarch and they also have dark deal. I understand these skills aren't ideal but they 100% have a burst heal.

Matriarch sucks. You have to do double bar it. What a waste of 2 bar slots.
And dark deal is mostly for gaining stamina.

Amottica

Sergykid wrote: »

there's more things here, vigor has different cost, targeting, duration.
i guess u talk about radiating regen, it can heal three players so it has more healing in the bucket, magicka is easier to refill
and rapid regen can not only be shared but placed on multiple players at once too

vigor was barely equal to those and only got equal with the minor buff added. They also already nerfed the heal.
-

This is an excellent point. One cannot compare two skills in such a narrow manner as is done in the OP. There are many differences between the two skills that need to be taken into account.

OBJnoob

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes they do. They have the twilight matriarch and they also have dark deal. I understand these skills aren't ideal but they 100% have a burst heal.

Matriarch sucks. You have to do double bar it. What a waste of 2 bar slots.
And dark deal is mostly for gaining stamina.

Like I said, I understand, but they still have a burst heal. You're making a pretty abstract critique of my already pretty abstract explanation. I think we're getting off topic-- this isn't a buff sorc thread.

AndreNoir

Amottica wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

there's more things here, vigor has different cost, targeting, duration.
i guess u talk about radiating regen, it can heal three players so it has more healing in the bucket, magicka is easier to refill
and rapid regen can not only be shared but placed on multiple players at once too

vigor was barely equal to those and only got equal with the minor buff added. They also already nerfed the heal.
-

This is an excellent point. One cannot compare two skills in such a narrow manner as is done in the OP. There are many differences between the two skills that need to be taken into account.

It doesn't matter in what manner u gonna compare Vigor with everything else - 5400 base healing over 5 sec can't be found in the game even without any buffs

MEBengalsFan2001

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes they do. They have the twilight matriarch and they also have dark deal. I understand these skills aren't ideal but they 100% have a burst heal.

Matriarch sucks. You have to do double bar it. What a waste of 2 bar slots.
And dark deal is mostly for gaining stamina.

It's not a waste as it also provides the Sorc a way to get out of LoS, a pet to help with damage and it also can heal you.