A Message to Those Who Get Upset About the Rajhin Button.

Personofsecrets

Although you ended up with more than 20 Bewilderment cards in your deck, that was not done out of spite. I simply played correctly given the cards that we purchased on both of our first turns. I apologize that you didn't like the experience.

Rather than accepting this part of the game, you decided to BM. And no, I don't mean that you were rude for giving me nearly 15 Bewilderment cards for me to play with. I acknowledge that you deliberately ran out the turn timer after doing your turn and I forgive you for being disrespectful.

Remember, you chose to play with Rajhin. If that choice contributed to how "unbearable" the match was, then you should consider different patron choices.

Good game friend.

spartaxoxo

I don't Rahjiin spam in casual because it's an extremely toxic game mechanic that wouldn't fly in any real card game. The only reason it's in this game is it's not a dedicated card game. So, they don't have to care as much about making a game mode people will actually enjoy and is fair and balanced. It's just a mini-game.

Anyway, there's generally always a move that's just as good if not better than doing that to someone in casual play, where I purposefully don't play sweaty since it's supposed to be a fun experience. I think anyone who does it is being rude because they are disrespectful of the atmosphere casual should cultivate. I feel no sympathy for those that disrespect others play environment getting disrespected back.

In competitive, I don't consider it disrespectful because you're supposed to win at all costs. It is the sweaty try hard mode. And anyone who doesn't like it should go play casual. It is still a toxic game mechanic though. The worst game mechanic in pretty much any card game I have ever seen in my life. Worse than the entire Orgnum, Pelin, and overpowered cards combined.

I never select Rahjiin myself. And if I do, I don't spam people with the patron. Sometimes it means I take an L, but I would rather take one than take advantage of such a legitimately toxic gameplay option. I don't care if it's part of the game.

TheImperfect

I think it's a matter of how a person views it, I try to see it as a bit cheeky and fun and not too serious. I've had it done to me and also done it and try to be light hearted about it but can see why it may feel toxic for some because it's a sabotaging sort of play but at the end you can still try to have fun and win despite it.

SeaGtGruff

I can't choose Rahjin, since I haven't collected yet.

If my NPC opponent chooses Rahjin, I might occasionally add a Bewilderment card to their deck, but generally no more than 1 or 2 times during a match, and only if I don't have anything else to do with 3 gold.

It can make a surprising difference at times, but for someone to start spamming it non-stop just seems like an admission that they think they've already lost the match and are incapable of winning by any other means.

Personofsecrets

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I can't choose Rahjin, since I haven't collected yet.

If my NPC opponent chooses Rahjin, I might occasionally add a Bewilderment card to their deck, but generally no more than 1 or 2 times during a match, and only if I don't have anything else to do with 3 gold.

It can make a surprising difference at times, but for someone to start spamming it non-stop just seems like an admission that they think they've already lost the match and are incapable of winning by any other means.

In the case of the game that prompted this forum post, I received a luxury exports turn one as first player and then pressed the Rajhin button since I already had an huge advantage that could be unsurmountable by wrecking the opponents economy.

In this case there was also an available currency exchange within the first couple of turns. I happily pressed the Rajhin button on my second turn and the deck shuffled with me now knowing that I had a 100% chance of purchasing the currency exchange on one of my 2 next turns while the opponent would be having an extremly low chance of having such an event occur; probably less than 5% chances despite them having 2 writ of coins because of the two bewilderments.

So I got the currency exchange. Then I got another currency exchange. At that point I was able to start giving my opponent 3 bewilderments on some turns. With such an economy advantage there was no reason to do anything else than to make sure that the opponent would never really get to do anything substantial.

I've also had this type of game when buying a first turn pounce/grand. But the button pressing starts on my second turn. This is a cautionary tale of the power of both Exports and those Rajhin economy enablers.

@ZOS_Kevin , this may be interesting to some of the card game designers.

SilverBride

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In the case of the game that prompted this forum post, I received a luxury exports turn one as first player and then pressed the Rajhin button since I already had an huge advantage that could be unsurmountable by wrecking the opponents economy.

In this case there was also an available currency exchange within the first couple of turns. I happily pressed the Rajhin button on my second turn and the deck shuffled with me now knowing that I had a 100% chance of purchasing the currency exchange on one of my 2 next turns while the opponent would be having an extremly low chance of having such an event occur; probably less than 5% chances despite them having 2 writ of coins because of the two bewilderments.

So I got the currency exchange. Then I got another currency exchange. At that point I was able to start giving my opponent 3 bewilderments on some turns. With such an economy advantage there was no reason to do anything else than to make sure that the opponent would never really get to do anything substantial.

If I were playing someone that did that on the first turn I'd immediately concede. And having an opponent give 3 Bewilders in one turn shouldn't even be possible. Things like this is why I stopped playing other players and rarely even do the NPC daily any more.

This could have been a great game but the unfair ranking system and overpowered plays drove me and some of my friends off.

SeaGtGruff

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In the case of the game that prompted this forum post, I received a luxury exports turn one as first player and then pressed the Rajhin button since I already had an huge advantage that could be unsurmountable by wrecking the opponents economy.

In this case there was also an available currency exchange within the first couple of turns. I happily pressed the Rajhin button on my second turn and the deck shuffled with me now knowing that I had a 100% chance of purchasing the currency exchange on one of my 2 next turns while the opponent would be having an extremly low chance of having such an event occur; probably less than 5% chances despite them having 2 writ of coins because of the two bewilderments.

So I got the currency exchange. Then I got another currency exchange. At that point I was able to start giving my opponent 3 bewilderments on some turns. With such an economy advantage there was no reason to do anything else than to make sure that the opponent would never really get to do anything substantial.

If I were playing someone that did that on the first turn I'd immediately concede. And having an opponent give 3 Bewilders in one turn shouldn't even be possible. Things like this is why I stopped playing other players and rarely even do the NPC daily any more.

This could have been a great game but the unfair ranking system and overpowered plays drove me and some of my friends off.

I might concede, as well. But I don't think the ranking system is as unfair as players think, just poorly understood as to how it works. I think a great topic for a future ESO Live stream would be to have one of the ToT devs give a detailed explanation of the ranking system to (hooefully) help alleviate players' concerns about it.

Anyway, I still love playing ToT every single day, usually at least twice each day-- because I play on two servers-- although I've been playing exclusively against the NPCs. Sometimes I even play four times a day, two sessions on each server-- once for the daily, and a second session later on just for fun. And I always play at least three matches each time, sometimes more if I lose any of them, as I always stop after winning three matches.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

This could have been a great game but the unfair ranking system and overpowered plays drove me and some of my friends off.

Yeah. I actually have a couple of Rahjiin players I concede on sight because I know they like to use this blatantly drastically overpowered and unfair strategy. I used to try and stick it out and even won about half the time. But, it made the game so miserable and overly long that I realized it was making me resent playing against other people at all. It made me hate the game.

Watching someone use currency exchange to spam 3 Rahjiin instead of using that to try to get a patron victory or use it to generate a ton of power using Hlallu (both of which would likely end the game in their favor faster) might tempt me to wait out the turn constantly too. Because, someone actually dragging out a victory makes me want to drag things out too. In actual practice though, I generally just concede. It's not worth wasting your time doing that.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This could have been a great game but the unfair ranking system and overpowered plays drove me and some of my friends off.

Yeah. I actually have a couple of Rahjiin players I concede on sight because I know they like to use this blatantly drastically overpowered and unfair strategy. I used to try and stick it out and even won about half the time. But, it made the game so miserable and overly long that I realized it was making me resent playing against other people at all. It made me hate the game.

Watching someone use currency exchange to spam 3 Rahjiin instead of using that to try to get a patron victory or use it to generate a ton of power using Hlallu (both of which would likely end the game in their favor faster) might tempt me to wait out the turn constantly too. Because, someone actually dragging out a victory makes me want to drag things out too. In actual practice though, I generally just concede. It's not worth wasting your time doing that.

In my case, I at first wanted to do a Patron victory, but it was clear that Patron victory wasn't going to be possible. The opponent deliberately did not take Agents that would have been good for them and the Psijics were one of the Patrons. Not once did the opponent play an agent during the game, so I stand by the strategy of using the Rajhin button until I had gotten enough power that I used tripple Delmene on a single turn to essentially close out the game.

WitchyKiki

Once i had this match with this person whom only pressed Rahjin, and bc I thought it was funny i spammed it right back. That game lasted like half an hour, I won bc I had an extra power card. I found it funny and laughed when I pulled 5 bewilderments. Rahjin is the best part of TOT tbh.

Sweetpea704

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't Rahjiin spam in casual because it's an extremely toxic game mechanic that wouldn't fly in any real card game. The only reason it's in this game is it's not a dedicated card game. So, they don't have to care as much about making a game mode people will actually enjoy and is fair and balanced. It's just a mini-game.

Anyway, there's generally always a move that's just as good if not better than doing that to someone in casual play, where I purposefully don't play sweaty since it's supposed to be a fun experience. I think anyone who does it is being rude because they are disrespectful of the atmosphere casual should cultivate. I feel no sympathy for those that disrespect others play environment getting disrespected back.

In competitive, I don't consider it disrespectful because you're supposed to win at all costs. It is the sweaty try hard mode. And anyone who doesn't like it should go play casual. It is still a toxic game mechanic though. The worst game mechanic in pretty much any card game I have ever seen in my life. Worse than the entire Orgnum, Pelin, and overpowered cards combined.

I never select Rahjiin myself. And if I do, I don't spam people with the patron. Sometimes it means I take an L, but I would rather take one than take advantage of such a legitimately toxic gameplay option. I don't care if it's part of the game.

Oh, If you pick St. Pelin, I will definitely pick Rahjiin. Giving those cards keeps you from playing Armory and Rally back to back. It is a legit strategy. But, Rahjiin is a great deck because you can get tons of coin from it. Nothing is worse than having a board with nothing but high priced cards you can't afford.

spartaxoxo

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't Rahjiin spam in casual because it's an extremely toxic game mechanic that wouldn't fly in any real card game. The only reason it's in this game is it's not a dedicated card game. So, they don't have to care as much about making a game mode people will actually enjoy and is fair and balanced. It's just a mini-game.

Anyway, there's generally always a move that's just as good if not better than doing that to someone in casual play, where I purposefully don't play sweaty since it's supposed to be a fun experience. I think anyone who does it is being rude because they are disrespectful of the atmosphere casual should cultivate. I feel no sympathy for those that disrespect others play environment getting disrespected back.

In competitive, I don't consider it disrespectful because you're supposed to win at all costs. It is the sweaty try hard mode. And anyone who doesn't like it should go play casual. It is still a toxic game mechanic though. The worst game mechanic in pretty much any card game I have ever seen in my life. Worse than the entire Orgnum, Pelin, and overpowered cards combined.

I never select Rahjiin myself. And if I do, I don't spam people with the patron. Sometimes it means I take an L, but I would rather take one than take advantage of such a legitimately toxic gameplay option. I don't care if it's part of the game.

Oh, If you pick St. Pelin, I will definitely pick Rahjiin. Giving those cards keeps you from playing Armory and Rally back to back. It is a legit strategy. But, Rahjiin is a great deck because you can get tons of coin from it. Nothing is worse than having a board with nothing but high priced cards you can't afford.

I don't play Pelin either. I find it a bit skilless. But, I respect Pelin more than Rahjiin spam. Pelin could use some numbers tweaking but it's not a toxic gameplay mechanic. There's nothing legitimate about Rahjiin patron spam. It's permanent control over someone else's deck. And it's not even high cost, it's spammable. The deck itself is fine. It can get annoying too but it's not anything that is counter to actually good card game design.

Go to the vast majority of card games out there and ask if they think a cheap, spammable, permanent control over someone else's deck is remotely okay, tbh. It's not just bad design. It's toxic. It encourages toxic gameplay where people don't play to win, they play to stop someone else from being able to do anything. They will take a 10 minute game and draw it out to 30 just so they can feel happy that the other user couldn't possible actually do anything.

It's unbelievable that they haven't done anything about it.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's unbelievable that they haven't done anything about it.

For as long as that there is a turn 1 purchasable card that generates 4 gold, nothing is unbelievable.

spartaxoxo

Personofsecrets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's unbelievable that they haven't done anything about it.

For as long as that there is a turn 1 purchasable card that generates 4 gold, nothing is unbelievable.

That's also a problem that is shocking it hasn't been resolved, tbh. Alongside cards a player can get on their first turn that give a big amount of power or coins e.g. Grand Larceny.

SeaGtGruff

I don't have a problem with those cards. I mean, how is a card that gives 4 gold at a cost of 5 gold any worse than being able to buy, say, two cards that each give 3 gold at a cost of only 2 gold, which together would be 6 gold at a cost of only 4 gold?

Personofsecrets

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't have a problem with those cards. I mean, how is a card that gives 4 gold at a cost of 5 gold any worse than being able to buy, say, two cards that each give 3 gold at a cost of only 2 gold, which together would be 6 gold at a cost of only 4 gold?

How can one card not be balanced when other cards are clearly not balanced? Yes, about Luxury Exports. it should cost at least 4.

SeaGtGruff

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't have a problem with those cards. I mean, how is a card that gives 4 gold at a cost of 5 gold any worse than being able to buy, say, two cards that each give 3 gold at a cost of only 2 gold, which together would be 6 gold at a cost of only 4 gold?

How can one card not be balanced when other cards are clearly not balanced? Yes, about Luxury Exports. it should cost at least 4.

I don't know. I like having those cards in the game so I can focus on actually buying useful cards during the first several turns instead of just mindlessly converting every 1-Gold card into a 2-Gold card over the first several turns. It gives you at least two different strategies-- buy cards early and convert cards later, or convert cards early and buy cards later. There's also the third strategy of doing a bit of both.

Personofsecrets

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't have a problem with those cards. I mean, how is a card that gives 4 gold at a cost of 5 gold any worse than being able to buy, say, two cards that each give 3 gold at a cost of only 2 gold, which together would be 6 gold at a cost of only 4 gold?

How can one card not be balanced when other cards are clearly not balanced? Yes, about Luxury Exports. it should cost at least 4.

I don't know. I like having those cards in the game so I can focus on actually buying useful cards during the first several turns instead of just mindlessly converting every 1-Gold card into a 2-Gold card over the first several turns. It gives you at least two different strategies-- buy cards early and convert cards later, or convert cards early and buy cards later. There's also the third strategy of doing a bit of both.

I think it's good to emphasize that these cards allow one of the players to have more important decision trees early on. It's becomes a issue of balance that can lead to a player having 8 or 9 gold to play with as early as their 3rd turn as the other player wallows around. At that much gold, the improvement of ones deck increases even further because one can buy a card and use the treasury on the same turn while the opponent most likely only get's to do one deck improving action.

The fact that two luxury exports can be purchased on the first turn is crazy.

Meji

As a Rajhin main I see this more times than not. People holding up the game and just showing bad sportsmanship.

But yes Personofsecrets is right. You grab that early economy lead and you can ruin someone's day with just 1 or 2 Bewilderments. Most of the time the other player will do it back which will just push your lead further forward. The beauty of this is they don't realized they've lost that match until it sets in and that's what creates that frustration I think.

Personofsecrets

Meji wrote: »

As a Rajhin main I see this more times than not. People holding up the game and just showing bad sportsmanship.

But yes Personofsecrets is right. You grab that early economy lead and you can ruin someone's day with just 1 or 2 Bewilderments. Most of the time the other player will do it back which will just push your lead further forward. The beauty of this is they don't realized they've lost that match until it sets in and that's what creates that frustration I think.

The same principle has caused alot of frustration in other games too and designers do alot to prevent it. In my opinion Elder Scrolls Legends became a totally different game (well in my true opinion was ruined) after designers tried to fix the frustration.

One of the most powerful decks in the history of that game was a midrange to control Mage archetype that often worked by running the opponent out of resources. I've seen card advantage be a win condition in numerous games including MTG and Yugioh.

That is to say that a player virtually wins a game because they have cards to play while the opponent is stuck unable to play cards that can impact the state of the game. So the winning players sits around, winning by not losing, as the other player can't do anything and is waiting for the opponents trivial win condition to finally pop up. Hence the frustrations that form and designers responses.

In those other games, the answer has been to make resource cheap, easy to get, and easy to renew. So there wouldn't be the case of someone getting outskilled via card advantage, leading to their own frustration, happening as often. TOT is a different sort of game, so attrition would have to be "fixed" in a different way if they want to make changes to prevent these types of games.

And I don't necessarily care a whole lot of the button is changed, but I really dislike the more powerful economy/tavern cost cards that make the button an attractive option.

Meji

It's definitely the powerful economy cards that make the Rajhin patron such a nuisance to play against. Even if someone buys a power card (even a good one) early on the Rajhin can still slow them down preventing them from buying and turning the game around.

Unfortunately without buying power the Rajhin deck will always create that sort of frustration. In a game where you remove a core mechanic from another player it's going to be extremely hard to balance. The deck is both weak and strong unless played in a particular way.

spartaxoxo

Meji wrote: »

It's definitely the powerful economy cards that make the Rajhin patron such a nuisance to play against. Even if someone buys a power card (even a good one) early on the Rajhin can still slow them down preventing them from buying and turning the game around.

Unfortunately without buying power the Rajhin deck will always create that sort of frustration. In a game where you remove a core mechanic from another player it's going to be extremely hard to balance. The deck is both weak and strong unless played in a particular way.

Rahjiin deck with patron spam can actually disrupts four core mechanics from the player.

Prestige generation, because multiple cards take it.
Patron Victory, because it's very difficult to get these if a patron is being spammed because you'll always need two twists to control.
The ability to combo cards, which is the primary method of skill expression in the game.
The ability to use agents because multiple cards kill them.

And Rahjiin's usage itself is skill-less. You can start spamming that thing turn 1. It is cheap and easy to use, and the coin generation of the deck makes it so that you don't have to really trade off much of anything (if you trade anything at all) to use it.

It's a bad skill-less joke. Wins based off it are almost always "I got lucky enough to get a couple of coin cards early" and that's about it. It's less skillful than Orgnum spam. Absolute dumpster fire of a mechanic that really has no basis being as cheap and easy to use as it is. I might feel differently if it cost like 10 coins or something. But, as it currently stands I'm not impressed with a victory of someone going "I got this couple of cards first and spammed this button so opponent couldn't do anything."

That isn't out-skilling an opponent. It's taking advantage of an extremely busted cheese strat that requires far, far more skills to overcome than to use. I don't blame people for using it, as bad design falls on the developers. But, I don't feel bad if their opponents decide that they too will draw out the game longer than it needs to be. Because at the end of the day, all Rahjiin spammers nearly always could have actually instead used that coin to generate power and prestige to win the match. I know that because that's how I play Rahjiin and it's never been an issue not to spam. But instead, patron spammers chose to drag the game out because ensuring their opponent can't win is more important to them than ensuring their own victory. It's fair play. It's part of the game. But, if someone spends their time poking bears, some of them are gonna poke back.

Snowy_Wyndra_Karn

I went from loving this game to hating it… for many of the reasons listed here.

SilverBride

delenn35 wrote: »

I went from loving this game to hating it… for many of the reasons listed here.

I am in the same boat. I don't know if I hate it but I just don't care about it any more.

The ranking system is not fair. Some of the decks are overpowered, and the Rahjiin deck is just plain trolling. But the decks that create very long combos are my biggest trigger.

I tried to just play NPCs to avoid all that but they just aren't a challenge. I can get a Patron win almost every time very early in the game, so I rarely play them any more either.

I wish I could love it again.

Lunatearz

I like to see the option to block a deck from being chosen except the 4 base decks perhaps..

WitchyKiki

SilverBride wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

I went from loving this game to hating it… for many of the reasons listed here.

I am in the same boat. I don't know if I hate it but I just don't care about it any more.

The ranking system is not fair. Some of the decks are overpowered, and the Rahjiin deck is just plain trolling. But the decks that create very long combos are my biggest trigger.

I tried to just play NPCs to avoid all that but they just aren't a challenge. I can get a Patron win almost every time very early in the game, so I rarely play them any more either.

I wish I could love it again.

We should just play together, I also hate very long-combo decks and find them boring. I like players who play quick and go about their day. I do wish the NPCs were more challenging too.

SilverBride

WitchyKiki wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

delenn35 wrote: »

I went from loving this game to hating it… for many of the reasons listed here.

I am in the same boat. I don't know if I hate it but I just don't care about it any more.

The ranking system is not fair. Some of the decks are overpowered, and the Rahjiin deck is just plain trolling. But the decks that create very long combos are my biggest trigger.

I tried to just play NPCs to avoid all that but they just aren't a challenge. I can get a Patron win almost every time very early in the game, so I rarely play them any more either.

I wish I could love it again.

We should just play together, I also hate very long-combo decks and find them boring. I like players who play quick and go about their day. I do wish the NPCs were more challenging too.

That would be fun!

Sheezabeast

I think some people [snip] think "Ooh, Khajiit!" and pick it over other decks.

[edited for minor baiting]

Necrotech_Master

my usual favorite deck combo is rahjin + druid, which i usually do for npc matches

i only recently started dabbling in the competitive matches purely so i could work on achievements for playing competitive matches and finish the card upgrades (since every freaking deck has 1 card you can only upgrade by doing pvp matches)

the times when i did have rahjin in the match, i dont think it was super heavily spammed, i hit it a few times which helped slow down the opponent, when they hit it on me i usually just converted the bewilderments to writ of coin, or used some other card to remove them so they never had a chance to build up too much

the only time ive ever seen a deck with 20+ bewilderments was in matches against npcs when i wanted ti explicitly spam it lol