Balance desperately needed in PvP, nerf Mara's Balm, Dark Convergence and frost Wardens please

SaffronCitrusflower

PvP balance is HORRIBLE now days. The three main contributors are Mara's Balm, Dark Convergence and OP Frost Wardens.

DK's and Wardens wearing Mara's Balm are extremely hard to kill, and if you give up and run away you're in combat for the next 20 min. (if you're lucky)

Dark Convergence is still not obeying any of the rules set out in it's description and abused by ball groups because they know this. It's still pulling from outside it's designated range, still pulling while you block, still killing after the player wearing the set is dead themselves, etc. All the complaints that are already posted for months about Dark Convergence still apply today.

People posted how out of balance Mara's Balm would make PvP even before the set went live, but again, like with Dark Convergence, the set went live anyway and all the nightmare predictions of how it would play out have proven to be the case. A player wearing Mara's Balm can stand still reading their map while being sieged with cold fire and just stand there healing through it doing nothing except letting the broken set keep them alive all by itself. DK's and Wardens wearing this set are especially pernicious and out of balance.

And frost wardens in general are just WAY OP now days. I'm not sure the best way to knock them down a peg or two would be, but I'd suggest taking the stun away from Arctic Blast and reducing it's healing. Maybe others have better ideas.

This is my first "nerf it" thread I've ever written, but somebody has to point these things out.

Rowjoh

On the one hand ESO decision makers/devs have consistently attempted to obtain 'balance' and standardisation over multiple updates for many years by radically buffing and nerfing a whole range of things...

...yet on the other hand they're approving the release of utterly broken sets/mythics that are know to be massively counter productive to any semblance of fair and equitable balance even BEFORE going live?

I dont get it.

M0ntie

NO to nerfing frost wardens. They are fine in PVE and finally make some diversity, usefulness and character for warden dps.

OBJnoob

I'm not sure wardens are OP but I agree with the rest.

I suppose I'm biased because I'm playing warden... But uh, don't take the stun off arctic the stun is needed. And honestly I wouldn't nerf the heal either. Nerf polar winds instead. It isn't the arctic blasters who are OP it is the health stacking undeathdens profiting from HP based heals.

Elendir2am

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not sure wardens are OP but I agree with the rest.

I suppose I'm biased because I'm playing warden... But uh, don't take the stun off arctic the stun is needed. And honestly I wouldn't nerf the heal either. Nerf polar winds instead. It isn't the arctic blasters who are OP it is the health stacking undeathdens profiting from HP based heals.

Wardens had superior sustainability, very good self-heal and decent mobility. It let only one weakness and it was high burst combo.

Wardens can easily delay burst combo with practically "free" stun and immobilization now. When all other class have their weaknesses, wardens have get tools to defend their own. It make this disbalance.

OBJnoob

I mean that's a fair comment and if this were 1 month ago I would agree with you. But some nice people on these forums helped me with my magden build and now I use polar winds instead of arctic blast. Because it's better.

At this time in this tank meta I don't think the damage-stacking build needs nerfing as much as the hp-stacking build. I might not be able to stun you as often for my beetles to hit, but trust me I'm still going to do it. I'm just going to use dawnbreaker instead of arctic blast.

Luede

with wardens i see only one extreme problem with crystallized slap, a skill that means a complete counter for all projectiles, with no way to deal with it, otherwise i think the class is OK.

Waylander07

As far as I am concerned concerning the Warden, a heal should not have a stun. As for the rest I am tired with the constant cycle of op broken gear and skills and the following nerfs in the name of balance. this should not be rocket science just stop releasing OP broken crap. its tiring farming and upgrading gear and changing your playstyle every few months.

ProudMary

Waylander07 wrote: »

As far as I am concerned concerning the Warden, a heal should not have a stun. As for the rest I am tired with the constant cycle of op broken gear and skills and the following nerfs in the name of balance. this should not be rocket science just stop releasing OP broken crap. its tiring farming and upgrading gear and changing your playstyle every few months.

Agreed. No heal should include a stun, or no stun should include a heal, however you want to say it. It's basic mistakes like this that convince me the devs don't play their own game, at least not the PvP side of it anyway.

Oakenaxe

It's been horrible for a while now. I'm glad I'm taking a good break from this game.

Elendir2am

The most sad thing about wardens is, that warden has been weakest PvE DD for long time. This buff of warden could change it, yet they made majority of buff PvP exclusive. So PvE wardens is still very weak DD and PvP warden is broken class now.

Vindold

I'm surprized by ppl who pointing at Frost Wardens saying that they are so OP, when DKs are literal immortal gods and NB though rarely but show almost the same performance on BGs...for ex on BGs almost everytime when I see a DK, I know that he'll get smth like 0-1 deaths and 15-25 or even more kills, and it happens like 80-90% of my matches...immense dmg, crazy sustain, easily killing bunch of ppl, Frost Wardens don't have that kind of dmg, not even close, stamden can't be so unkillable as DK and have the same dmg, I almost haven't seen any Wardens to have the same performance as DKs, tbh I can't even remember one, good one yes, but nothing crazy like 25-0 and so often...even NB or stam sorc with dw or Mag plar are much more often do smth like that, but still it's a rare sight compared to DK, at least in my experience...though I agree if there is like 3 wardens against you, constant freezes can be annoying and hard to deal with if your team isn't good enough, but alone they are not that OP, Mara's Balm + sustain sets that's the problem, without such sets things will be different, but DKs will still be on top and NB even higher, imo.

OBJnoob

Wardens, DKs, and NBs are a little OP right now. But honestly that's half the classes so from a balance standpoint, I mean, things have been worse.

And while I'd be comfortable with some nerfs to all three... I think templars got nerfed a little too hard (or at least forced into a playstyle that they don't like and tbh I don't much like getting beamed all the time either,) sorcs have needed help for a while now, and necros are kinda a one-trick-pony also.

So I mean... Does the strong half need nerfs or do the weak half need buffs? There's no wrong answer... Just food for thought.

As far as heals having stuns... D-leap heals (all DK ultis heal, and one morph gives them a big damage shield as well.) Obsidian Shard stuns and heals. NBs Soul Tether stuns and heals. That's all I can think of right now, but there's perhaps another one or two in the game. It isn't new.

Also I'd like to reiterate that Polar Wind is arguably a better morph than Arctic Blast. And Polar Wind is more tied to the problem with the game (tank meta, HP stacking,) than Arctic Blast is. Why kill one bird with one stone when you could kill two?

TechMaybeHic

Most of those other stun heals are ultimates. The stun heal on wardens noticeable as it happens right when you're about to finish one off and it does it with ease

I'd be ok with seeing what it's like without Maras being so prominent though. And I'd add sea serpent coil and Rallying Cry as well as I think those 2 providing offense and defense if 2 sets in 6 pieces is allowing people to chose a healing set like Maras and not make a choice

TechMaybeHic

Oh and I am running DC on my necro and would dance in joy if the mass pull on it is no more. Also need Rush of Agony. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that when you get pulled outside the DC AOE, its often because rush of agony is paired with it to do just that. Group I run with often does this, but we have been pretty thin lately

OBJnoob

Yes most of the other stun heals are ultimates. But not all. And that list was off the top of my head in about 3 minutes so... Perhaps incomplete.

People aren't complaining about getting stunned every time they're about to kill a Warden though, are they? They're complaining about getting stunned so the beetles can land.

Elendir2am wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not sure wardens are OP but I agree with the rest.

I suppose I'm biased because I'm playing warden... But uh, don't take the stun off arctic the stun is needed. And honestly I wouldn't nerf the heal either. Nerf polar winds instead. It isn't the arctic blasters who are OP it is the health stacking undeathdens profiting from HP based heals.

Wardens had superior sustainability, very good self-heal and decent mobility. It let only one weakness and it was high burst combo.

Wardens can easily delay burst combo with practically "free" stun and immobilization now. When all other class have their weaknesses, wardens have get tools to defend their own. It make this disbalance.

So what does it really matter if it's a heal?? Warden needed a stun because they didn't have one. They were, I believe, alone in that sad fact. Now they have one and they don't suck anymore.

Take the stun off Arctic, give it to them somewhere else (you'll have to or you just re-destroyed the class,) and now you have a REAL problem. Wardens with a stun using Polar Wind. God help you all if they put the stun on a damaging ability.

OBJnoob

P.S. Do you know how annoying it is to give someone free CC immunity just because you needed to heal??

ProudMary

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes most of the other stun heals are ultimates. But not all. And that list was off the top of my head in about 3 minutes so... Perhaps incomplete.

People aren't complaining about getting stunned every time they're about to kill a Warden though, are they? They're complaining about getting stunned so the beetles can land.

Elendir2am wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not sure wardens are OP but I agree with the rest.

I suppose I'm biased because I'm playing warden... But uh, don't take the stun off arctic the stun is needed. And honestly I wouldn't nerf the heal either. Nerf polar winds instead. It isn't the arctic blasters who are OP it is the health stacking undeathdens profiting from HP based heals.

Wardens had superior sustainability, very good self-heal and decent mobility. It let only one weakness and it was high burst combo.

Wardens can easily delay burst combo with practically "free" stun and immobilization now. When all other class have their weaknesses, wardens have get tools to defend their own. It make this disbalance.

So what does it really matter if it's a heal?? Warden needed a stun because they didn't have one. They were, I believe, alone in that sad fact. Now they have one and they don't suck anymore.

Take the stun off Arctic, give it to them somewhere else (you'll have to or you just re-destroyed the class,) and now you have a REAL problem. Wardens with a stun using Polar Wind. God help you all if they put the stun on a damaging ability.

It's bad game design to put a heal and a stun together with the same skill. And arctic blast is not the only stun wardens have in their toolbox. There is a reason half of everyone in Cyrodiil is running a frost warden now. That reason is they are grossly OP and it's largely because of one skill that is so OP it's apt to describe it as broken.

Vindold

ProudMary wrote: »

That reason is they are grossly OP and it's largely because of one skill that is so OP it's apt to describe it as broken.

One of reasons ppl play frost warden isn't just because they are good in team fights, but also because it's smth new and it works, it's fun. Frost Wardens become a problem when there is plenty of them, too many freezes, so some sort of a proper cd can fix it, though freezes is their unique and cool feature, it shouldn't be nerfed into the ground...I just hope devs will find a proper workaround and Frost Warden will keep it's unique feature and remain a solid spec to play, game needs more unique and fun builds\classes.

OBJnoob

@ProudMary Ah, you're right, crystallized slab stuns. My fault. To be honest I don't run crystallized slab because it doesn't stun who I'm hitting it stuns who is hitting me. I don't think it is unfair for wardens to have a stun they can combo with their offense. Every class does, don't they?

As far as whether or not it's right to have a stun attached to a heal ability... I don't think you explained very well why you feel that way. You just kinda said it. So unless you can explain a little bit, I'm afraid I still feel the way I felt.

Elendir2am

Arctic Blast is broken, because it doesn't need any active input from player. Any other stun need targeting and using skill with stun, limited by range.
Arctic Blast stuns anybody around without taking action from warden so he can do anything else. It will stun you again moment your CC immunity end so with lag and necessarily to break free repeatedly to get out of stun, you are more time stunned, then you can fight warden.
Any other stun can by delayed by lag same way as break free is, because they need to be used actively. So it is some how fair.

Quest "kill 20 wardens" is as much hard to fulfil as "kill 20 NB". For example I can do "kill 20 DK" very fast, because how much DKs are in Cyrodiil. Yet many wardens don't lead to same result.

As last think to add, I made frost mage build myself and with class I did only PvE healer until now, I wrecked many opponents, lifted sieges and has other power projection in Cyro higher than I should have, controling class I am not good with.

UnabashedlyHonest

Elendir2am wrote: »

Arctic Blast is broken, because it doesn't need any active input from player. Any other stun need targeting and using skill with stun, limited by range.
Arctic Blast stuns anybody around without taking action from warden so he can do anything else. It will stun you again moment your CC immunity end so with lag and necessarily to break free repeatedly to get out of stun, you are more time stunned, then you can fight warden.
Any other stun can by delayed by lag same way as break free is, because they need to be used actively. So it is some how fair.

Quest "kill 20 wardens" is as much hard to fulfil as "kill 20 NB". For example I can do "kill 20 DK" very fast, because how much DKs are in Cyrodiil. Yet many wardens don't lead to same result.

As last think to add, I made frost mage build myself and with class I did only PvE healer until now, I wrecked many opponents, lifted sieges and has other power projection in Cyro higher than I should have, controling class I am not good with.

Arctic blast also stuns everyone in the area, not just one player. So one warden can stun a whole group and get healed while running away over and over again since cool down is so quick. This is why half of everyone in cyrodiil now days is running a frost warden.

xFocused

Tbh, I'm just bored of the current "I'm a warden tank tower runner that doesn't put out any damage but good luck killing me" meta right now, lol. Granted, I just leave them because all they want to do is troll and get you to chase them but it would be nice to see these guys take a little damage or something here and there.

TechMaybeHic

xFocused wrote: »

Tbh, I'm just bored of the current "I'm a warden tank tower runner that doesn't put out any damage but good luck killing me" meta right now, lol. Granted, I just leave them because all they want to do is troll and get you to chase them but it would be nice to see these guys take a little damage or something here and there.

I'm with you on that but doesn't have to be a warden. Can be any class, or group, even ball groups just run into towers and start circling around.

Even if you hit one by yourself. I unloaded a combo on one and dropped him right into execute range and he ran missed the door, just pinned up against the wall instead, yet whirling blades could not hit him with me right there.

Something's wrong with collision and/or positioning. All MMOs I can remember has a little bit of a problem with it but this is getting egregious

xFocused

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Tbh, I'm just bored of the current "I'm a warden tank tower runner that doesn't put out any damage but good luck killing me" meta right now, lol. Granted, I just leave them because all they want to do is troll and get you to chase them but it would be nice to see these guys take a little damage or something here and there.

I'm with you on that but doesn't have to be a warden. Can be any class, or group, even ball groups just run into towers and start circling around.

Even if you hit one by yourself. I unloaded a combo on one and dropped him right into execute range and he ran missed the door, just pinned up against the wall instead, yet whirling blades could not hit him with me right there.

Something's wrong with collision and/or positioning. All MMOs I can remember has a little bit of a problem with it but this is getting egregious

Yeah I agree, any class can be a unkillable tank with 0 damage. At least with ball groups you have a chance of wiping them if you know who to target first and so forth...but these tower runners who just run and run without doing anything else is goofy, lol. I don't understand the meta or fun from it so I just ignore them and move on to other things.

Jabbs_Giggity

Mara's was just another tool to further eliminate the Templar identity and redistribute it to other classes.
On my Templar I prefer running Mara's over cleanse. I also prefer it on my stam sorc because I can run my stamsorc like I do my stamplar since Templar was gutted.

DC is annoying, but I hold block and don't die.

Ice Wardens is annoying but needed help. Not enough help to introduce a perma CC class that breaks PVP though.

Fixing lag in PVP would leave a more desirable taste for requesting of balance changes IMO because if all players were able to play without trying to cast skills 3, 4, 5...10 times before they actually work we may be able to better mitigate some of these issues players complain about before ZOS comes down with a nerf hammer.

Without lag, Ice wardens wouldn't be an issue bc you wouldn't need to break free 3 or 4 times to actually break free and snare removal would actually work against them.
If you could actually complete a full combo rotation, healing wouldn't be perceived as much as overpowered.
Mara's may need to have initial cleanse removed and keep the 6+ requirement at a 15s cooldown

Thecompton73

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Tbh, I'm just bored of the current "I'm a warden tank tower runner that doesn't put out any damage but good luck killing me" meta right now, lol. Granted, I just leave them because all they want to do is troll and get you to chase them but it would be nice to see these guys take a little damage or something here and there.

I'm with you on that but doesn't have to be a warden. Can be any class, or group, even ball groups just run into towers and start circling around.

Even if you hit one by yourself. I unloaded a combo on one and dropped him right into execute range and he ran missed the door, just pinned up against the wall instead, yet whirling blades could not hit him with me right there.

Something's wrong with collision and/or positioning. All MMOs I can remember has a little bit of a problem with it but this is getting egregious

The position tracking in this game is absolutely horrible, I run Whirling Blades on my NB and it feels like half the time when I have someone in execute and spin it just completely misses them even if I am practically standing on their toes.

TechMaybeHic

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Tbh, I'm just bored of the current "I'm a warden tank tower runner that doesn't put out any damage but good luck killing me" meta right now, lol. Granted, I just leave them because all they want to do is troll and get you to chase them but it would be nice to see these guys take a little damage or something here and there.

I'm with you on that but doesn't have to be a warden. Can be any class, or group, even ball groups just run into towers and start circling around.

Even if you hit one by yourself. I unloaded a combo on one and dropped him right into execute range and he ran missed the door, just pinned up against the wall instead, yet whirling blades could not hit him with me right there.

Something's wrong with collision and/or positioning. All MMOs I can remember has a little bit of a problem with it but this is getting egregious

The position tracking in this game is absolutely horrible, I run Whirling Blades on my NB and it feels like half the time when I have someone in execute and spin it just completely misses them even if I am practically standing on their toes.

I see that with whirling blades often. Anything under 7m tends to struggle