Events, Veteran Trials, and Basic Etiquette

El_Borracho

As most do, I typically run all veteran trials with guild members or friends. Aside from Hel Ra and Aetherian Archive, I can't remember the last time I ran a vet trial pug... until this weekend. Wow.

Figured I'd run a pug or two in vet Kyne's Aegis between guild runs to pad the sticker book with this event. How bad could it be? Yikes. Eye-opening. I still can't believe there are people out there who jump into vet trials like KA who refuse to listen to others who explain mechanics. I'm not talking about dying while obeying the mechanics, but outright ignoring them. "Burn the add and totems on Yandir." "Don't run around with the poison." "Block." "Focus the shard." "Bash." Then, going ballistic on the group.

This event has shined a giant spotlight on the gap between casual players and "experienced" players who run vet group content. I typically only play a few days a week at this point, so I'm not some trials god here to tell people to GIT GUD, or rip players who step out of their comfort zone, nor am I here to tell everyone to join a guild. But there has to be somewhere in the middle. Common courtesy and a little humility go a long way when learning how to do more difficult veteran group content, especially in a pug.

Basic rule: if you want the gear, learn how to get it. Nobody's handing out free carries just because there is an event.

Soraka

It would be nice if there was some sort of casual trial experience like LFR in other games. I don't think I've ever attempted a trial because I'm very casual pve and know I don't know what to do and don't want to deal with long prep, drama etc. etc. that goes into raiding. I would like to learn it and complete it without committing to a guild or group, even if that meant less rewards etc.. something to dip my toes into it. At this point I have no hope of ever participating in trials.

carlos424

Unfortunately, this is the product of making the game easier for people. There is no incentive to do vet content, particularly single and four-person arenas such as maelstrom, dsa, blackrose, etc., as all the gear can be had on normal, with insignificant stat increases for perfected (vet-level) gear. These arenas are where most players cut there teeth, and went from being casual players to veteran level. The gap will only continue to grow as more and more long-time players leave.

sarahthes

Soraka wrote: »

It would be nice if there was some sort of casual trial experience like LFR in other games. I don't think I've ever attempted a trial because I'm very casual pve and know I don't know what to do and don't want to deal with long prep, drama etc. etc. that goes into raiding. I would like to learn it and complete it without committing to a guild or group, even if that meant less rewards etc.. something to dip my toes into it. At this point I have no hope of ever participating in trials.

Normal pug trials are literally no holds barred, just kill the things everyone else is killing and try not to die. Literally anyone can walk into a pug normal trial and be reasonably likely to clear (although I have never been as scared for my life as I was in the pug nss I ran last week - and I have Godslayer).

Vet trials require some coordination to be successful, as often multiple roles are required to complete specific tasks. Sometimes all you need for that coordination is experience and high damage and good supports. But getting there requires hand-holding and all that careful prep.

Ragnarok0130

@El_Borracho it's also usually those same people that you describe who steadfastly refuse to get into discord to even listen to call outs and mech explanations without even having to speak. I'll stay and prog a veteran PUG for a long time if people are willing to listen and perform mechanics. That being said the ones who want to go all Lee Roy Jenkins tend to kill PUGs more than anything else.

You are right, there is a large gap between end game players and casuals but that's mostly on ZoS because the game doesn't teach players its own systems with the worst tutorial in modern gaming. Also the game overland is so trivial there's no incentive or even a reason for the normal quester to improve or even research a build.

pelle412

There is no solution to this that satisifies a majority. ESO has been trending towards more and more casual gameplay for many years. ESO also has a limited amount of content that is not suitable for casual gameplay and the two don't mesh. A few years ago, arena weapons were moved from veteran drops to normal drops, compounding the lack of incentive to improve your gameplay. For the original poster, the only advice I can give is, never join vet trial pugs. You might be lucky, but most likely not. For the players who want to experience the content (on any level), the normal difficulty is tuned just for you. It is very forgiving. The only prep you really need to do is find a written or video guide and look it over so you are not completely unprepared and then jump right into it and have fun.

Ragnarok0130

Soraka wrote: »

It would be nice if there was some sort of casual trial experience like LFR in other games. I don't think I've ever attempted a trial because I'm very casual pve and know I don't know what to do and don't want to deal with long prep, drama etc. etc. that goes into raiding. I would like to learn it and complete it without committing to a guild or group, even if that meant less rewards etc.. something to dip my toes into it. At this point I have no hope of ever participating in trials.

@Soraka You may be casual PVE but if you have a decent build for your role I'd recommend giving a normal trial a shot by answering a Craglorn LFG post for your role. We all start somewhere and one of the early trials like Aetherian Archive or Hel Ra Citadel are excellent places to start. Of course in preparation I'd recommend running DLC dungeons first to get your feet wet and get some good gear which always helps.

If you want to try trials DM me and I can hook you up with a group of people who aren't a guild but take people on trial runs regularly. They can also answer questions on builds, gearing, etc.

El_Borracho

@carlos424 and @Ragnarock41 I agree with both of you. VMA, normal trials, and vet DLC dungeons are how I went from being scared of veteran trials to loving veteran trials. It is daunting, for sure, for those who have never done one. But once you see it and have someone explain it to you as it happens, it makes sense.

I don't want to water the game down further so dumbing down veteran content is out of the question. I've had this idea that you could do a progression-style group finder for veteran trials, similar to PVP campaigns or dungeon finder, but with visual/audio cues that tell people when to block, who to kill, where tanks, healers, and DDs should stand, when and where a mechanic is coming, etc. And, instead of the whole trial, you break the bosses down individually so you don't have the issue of making it 3/4 into a trial and hitting the wall. Obviously, you would not get perfected gear drops as I still think those should only be in a vet trial, but maybe purple level normal gear and a small reward.

At least with that, people could practice and see how to defeat a boss outside of a full trial raid while not having to join a guild or have 11 friends on at the same time

Soarora

This and bully pugs are the reasons I don’t think there should be a trial finder, at least not for vet. There is a balance between being welcoming so people progress to endgame and being too welcoming and making a miserable experience for everyone.

Soraka

I see thanks for the info everyone. I just kind of assumed with the skill gap if I tried a normal I would be an inconvenience and not with people my experience level.

CrashTest

That's been my experience too farming this event and filling from Crag. I can easily tell pugs who vet raid regularly in organized groups and toxic casuals who have one or two clears from being carried this event. The latter seem to think their few clears make them an expert, so they'll back seat raid lead with wrong info and bark at everyone.

If I had a loot drop for every yolo to storm caller, poison spread, fog eaten, unblocked meteor, meteor spread, instability in group, sanguine grasp on others, stacking in conga, running around like a loon with red vines, and standing under ichor, I'd have stickerbook filled for a dozen accounts already.

The worst part is they're adamant they know mechs, so they don't need Discord then they end up being a floormat the whole time and blame everyone else for it.

Everest_Lionheart

Soraka wrote: »

I see thanks for the info everyone. I just kind of assumed with the skill gap if I tried a normal I would be an inconvenience and not with people my experience level.

The mechanics of normal trials aren’t nearly as punishing as their vet counterparts. And if you do eventually pug the craglorn veteran trials watch out for trolls who join group and stick all the way until final boss activate the hard modes and then leave the group. I’ve seen it happen quite a few times in vAA and vHRC pug/teaching runs. I’ve also seen it happen in nCR3 where a couple really heavy hitters will not let up on the boss and spawn multiple mini bosses.

Carcamongus

Jumping into vet trials was quite an experience for me, but I only did that because it was with a guild's group. The feeling of facing this challenge and winning is amazing, but I also had to deal with considerable anxiety that at times made it difficult for me to follow instructions. What I learned from vet DLC trials is that the team has to be very well coordinated and geared. We naturally had bumps, even with everyone listening and doing their part, so I dread to imagine the sort of mess one could find in a vet PUG.

Also, I wouldn't call those people who join for a vet DLC trial without any intention of listening or being productive casuals. Filthy n'wahs is a better term.

Amottica

Look at it as a reminder of why we run with guild groups and avoid pugs and GF groups.

AinSoph

Another thing to remind people of is adaptation not only mechanic-wise but build-wise. I'm sorry but your RP Vampire Lord/Kiss/Cloak with only blood skills build really doesn't cut it in group content and you are most likely carried. Please be respectful of the other 3/11 people's time in the group and participate/contribute in the GROUP effort.

tiriusavarao

I'll admit this is precisely why I have never tried a vet trial and only very recently started on vet dlc dungeons, but the latter experience has been very hit or miss. I am a fairly quick study, but I just cannot take the drama that sometimes occurs when experienced players expect everyone to perform to their level on vet content. We all have to start learning somewhere, and there is a difference between being able to complete vet content and doing it efficiently as experts. I am here to have fun. Some challenge is nice, but I would rather fight monsters than group chat.

Thankfully I have a very nice trading guild that does weekly normal trials at a leasurely speed, which is very nice for learning all the base mechanics and doing trials in general. We just have fun together and the occasional derp is just part of the deal - we ran KA with half a group last week just to see if we could and it was a lot of fun if terribly chaotic. Anyone wanting to amp up their skills, in any form of content, I would highly recommend finding a friendly guild of like-minded souls and avoid the pug problems when possible. That way you can check beforehand if you have the same goals in mind.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

Ragnarok0130

AinSoph wrote: »

Another thing to remind people of is adaptation not only mechanic-wise but build-wise. I'm sorry but your RP Vampire Lord/Kiss/Cloak with only blood skills build really doesn't cut it in group content and you are most likely carried. Please be respectful of the other 3/11 people's time in the group and participate/contribute in the GROUP effort.

Precisely, group content isn't about "you" or "your play style", it's about everyone in the group and their experience collectively and it's everyone's responsibility to contribute to the absolute best of their ability, especially on vet and vet HM trials. A couple of selfish people even in a normal PUG trial can really put a bad taste in a new raider's mouth by turning a relatively easy trial into a slogging prog because they were contrarians about being anywhere near the meta and weren't pulling their weight.

Ragnarok0130

tiriusavarao wrote: »

I'll admit this is precisely why I have never tried a vet trial and only very recently started on vet dlc dungeons, but the latter experience has been very hit or miss. I am a fairly quick study, but I just cannot take the drama that sometimes occurs when experienced players expect everyone to perform to their level on vet content. We all have to start learning somewhere, and there is a difference between being able to complete vet content and doing it efficiently as experts. I am here to have fun. Some challenge is nice, but I would rather fight monsters than group chat.

Thankfully I have a very nice trading guild that does weekly normal trials at a leasurely speed, which is very nice for learning all the base mechanics and doing trials in general. We just have fun together and the occasional derp is just part of the deal - we ran KA with half a group last week just to see if we could and it was a lot of fun if terribly chaotic. Anyone wanting to amp up their skills, in any form of content, I would highly recommend finding a friendly guild of like-minded souls and avoid the pug problems when possible. That way you can check beforehand if you have the same goals in mind.

@tiriusavarao I actually find that vet dungeons are far less toxic and more cordial than normal dungeons, especially when it comes to DLC vet dungeons. The people understand why they're in the dungeon, know what to do and normally get right to work after a quick "hello".

Elendir2am

Problem of veteran PUG trials isn't about experience of players. We took rookies in veteran trials regularly without problems. My guild don't do normal trials. Only one thing is needed, be team player. Vet PUGs are full of players, who don't fulfil this elemental requirement and it lead to toxic experience.

El_Borracho

@tiriusavarao Its not all inexperienced players, its the inexperienced players who either lie about their knowledge/experience with the vet trial or simply refuse to listen when the mechanics are being explained. The overwhelming majority of players who run veteran trials are more than happy to explain mechanics, what to do, where to stand, etc. even if it takes a little longer. Because we like veteran trials and want others to run them too, as we were all there at one time ourselves. But carrying a player is not the same as helping a new player learn a trial.

In the situations I was talking about, the "toxicity" doesn't come from the veteran players. It comes from the inexperienced player who is either too embarrassed or too stubborn to admit they do not know what they are doing. We can all tell who they are as they are doing the opposite of everyone else. Its why people start with "does everyone know mechanics?" and progressing to "on this boss, we need to do this" in chat so we can give the new player a prompt to speak up. It only ever gets to pointing out a specific player after a series of wipes and either no response, or a rude response that somehow the group is doing it wrong.

boi_anachronism_

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

@El_Borracho it's also usually those same people that you describe who steadfastly refuse to get into discord to even listen to call outs and mech explanations without even having to speak. I'll stay and prog a veteran PUG for a long time if people are willing to listen and perform mechanics. That being said the ones who want to go all Lee Roy Jenkins tend to kill PUGs more than anything else.

You are right, there is a large gap between end game players and casuals but that's mostly on ZoS because the game doesn't teach players its own systems with the worst tutorial in modern gaming. Also the game overland is so trivial there's no incentive or even a reason for the normal quester to improve or even research a build.

1000% percent. I really enjoy helping people get their skins. I've sat in Vmol for hrs with new groups just helping as an experienced player. With a group that wants to learn it is a joy. Even if we wipe a lot there is nothing as satisfying in the game for me personally then seeing the sense of achievement folks get from their first vet dlc trial clears.