U36 Magden BG Build

gariondavey

Caribou77 wrote: »

Yeah, I get that the resto heals don’t synergize with warden like green and winter options, but for whatever reason I was getting hammered by tight zergs for a bit (where did my team go? oh, they cloaked n left

So even though resto skills are less efficient, healing ward paired with blessing of restoration seems to do a better job of keeping me alive through an onslaught to where I can escape and reset. I think the psychology of this meta leads people to move on to easier targets if you demonstrate that you’re not going to die for awhile.

I did tweak the build to one that’s more fun and stronger offense: valkyn helm, magma inc shoulder, 2 trainee, masters ice staff, oakensoul ring, 5 aetherial (medium). Fbar is now flare, bird of prey, arctic blast, deep fissure, frost reach, and ice comet.

Still getting vry high assists (~20s), but the kills are going up (due to comet and frost reach hitting & critting more). Main strengths are high recovery ~17k mrec, ~950 srec, and higher crit chance balanced with spell damage (30%/ 5.5k). Also good mobility. Main weakness is arctic blast is my only heal.

Really enjoying it, as ice comet is as close as I’ve come to an effective “execute” on magden (still have to line it up w/deep fissure n spam frost reach) and with oakensoul it’s frequently up.

OBJ- thanks for sharing the awesome clip of the BG! It made me laugh to see you defending my flank against 2-3 opponents while my very slow Magsorc ran the relic home. Made me realize how much of a sitting duck Magsorc is once you grab a relic or chaosball and streak is unavailable… Magsorc without streak is absurd.

Thanks again for the insightful advice here. I have a question for Garion D, if you see this: wondering if your meta Magden friends do battlegrounds and what their typical scores are like. Looking for some broad perspective.

Yes my meta magden friends are people like miracle here, blastmyship, sunbark, candlestickmaker. There are a few others who play at a high level that I'm not very close to, such as templarproblem, who do very well consistently.
10+ / -3 / 10+ in most games with 3m+ damage and 1m+ healing
In a low kill game obviously kda would be lower

Caribou77

OBJnoob wrote: »

I have ice comet on my warden but for some reason I never use it. Would you recommend it?

It's funny: I've never been happy using ice comet when I've tried it in the past, as it seemed to always be blocked and do very little damage. But now it's hitting hard for some reason -- not sure if it's my build or evolving playing style. Probably the latter, as I seem to be weaving it into melee combat more rapidly so opponents may be distracted from the long animation telegraph. Of course I'm also trying to hit them with arctic blast just before comet lands, but between my laggy connection and lack of experience timing these, I'd say that only accounts for 10% of my effective ice comet hits.

I guess I'd recommend trying to consciously use it more on opponents who are heavily engaged, or low on stam so maybe block isn't an option. My tooltip on IC is 18k (w/o battlespirit), which is still less than Assassin's Will (a non-ultimate), but that's another can of worms...

Caribou77

Quick addendum to previous post: I think increasing lag/desync/some other bug may be a significant factor in why ice comet is now hitting more frequently - I'll bet the animation tel isn't showing up for people.

I base this on my experience of the Scavenging Demise proc not animating. I get hit with it quite a bit, as every bow ganker is using this set, and it's been annoying enough that I am keenly aware of what to look for (red circle slowling filling in around your feet) so that I can dodge roll right before it triggers. HOWEVER, quite often Scavening Demise shows up on my death recap at the end, and I saw no red circle. Sometimes the Scavenging Maw itself shows up in ghostly form a second or two after you're watching the grayed out death screen.

Maybe this is a factor? Hard to know what other people's lag experience is like.

Caribou77

Miracle19 wrote: »

scoreboard of a 43k hp warden

Thanks Miracle -- this is great. Nice work on your Magden build/skills. Are you on PC NA? These numbers look similar to the bgs I'm in, but I don't recognize the names. I'm on Xbox NA.

Looks like I need to give the high hp build further consideration

gariondavey

Yes, we are on pc na

XiangliSYD

Miracle19 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Okay, good talk. I'm at work now so I'll be able to mull it over until tonight when I play lol. I appreciate the advice @Dekrypted @gariondavey and I dunno @Miracle19.

That's what's good about the forums-- you might think you're doing it right because maybe everyone in your mmr or on your platform is doing it one way. Or maybe you're just doing so well you don't experiment.

Out of curiosity, if you guys will entertain me a little further, what do your skill bars look like with polar wind?

FB - Crystal slab , BoP, splitting soul trap(I use oblivions foe) , shalks , force pulse. - Permafrost

BB - polar, lotus , fortress, Betty, leeching vines - trees healing ult/resto ult

Could you please share the sets you are using?

OBJnoob

Okay so... I've ignored a lot of this advice, not gonna lie. It's educational and I store it away for later use, but I almost always take pride in making my own builds. So. Well, I also get bored after like a month and have to either redo everything or play a new toon. I'm not tired of my magden yet though, so, I've theorycrafted a new build. I'm going to try and stack max HP, as advised here, but my own little uniqueness is that I'm also going to stack damage done. Meaning percent modifiers.

I'm going to trade my rallying cry for wizards riposte. Fairly similar sets in the end I think but wizards riposte has no lines of crit and does have +health. This'll be backbarred. Hrothgar will be frontbarred. Because it's a proc that doesn't depend on my spell damage and because it has +health with no lines of crit. Boots of trainee for the health. Prior Thierric monster set for the +5% to AoE abilities. Band of Malacath.

So... It may be a struggle to get my spell damage very high, but honestly it isn't very high anyway. I will have +12% damage done from frost staff, 13% from malacath, 5% from monster set (it will effect my ultimate and my shalks,) and 5% from bird of prey.

I'm going to use crystal slab instead of shimmering shield and I'm going to use polar wind instead of arctic blast. I'll have a free slot on my bar because I'm going to stop using the lotus thing for major savagery.

Sounds good to me. And by good I mean feasible. What do you guys think? Might be good?

MEBengalsFan2001

Caribou77 wrote: »

This great! Thanks for sharing your build and posting your clip. It looks like you’re doing a really good job of utilizing Hrothgar’s with your style/rotation. Also looks like your’re effective with arterial burst, which I haven’t tried due to stupid personal role play aesthetics ☺️— I’m just not a clawing warden. I stick with the staff which can be very limiting, especially with how strong 2h off balance/dizzy can be on warden.

I wouldn’t knock your build at all. I still go back and forth on using the masters ice staff— it only procs for 4 seconds and pretty much takes the place of a mythic or monster set, and I often worry about its up time vs other options. I think it’s solid if you spam frost reach alot, but I don’t because it gets dodged frequently, and front bar space is precious. I actually think arterial or any skill that isn’t a projectile makes for a stronger spammable in pvp, where desync n other factors make ranged skills iffy.

Again, thanks for sharing the clip as well as your thoughtful experience. I’m still feeling pretty novice about using frost/piercing cold effectively on my Magden.

I played bgs against a Magden last night who was virtually unkillable. Kept spamming arctic blast for big heals and seemingly never running out of mana. I can never get my arctic blast above 11-12k, so 6k w/battle spirit. Also, she/he was able to dish out strong damage.

Kind of off topic, but are you guys getting hit with 20k toxic barrage followed by scavenging maw that is not displaying its animation warning? I’ve got ~38k resistance, and block with an ice staff, but a few guys are maybe just excellent at timing so that I’m in the middle of a sweaty brawl and they fire tb at my back… from a safe distance…

I've seen plenty of wardens just spamming Frost Clench thanks to this update buffing wardens damage the frost staff. Having the master staff helps add more damage and it also applies major and minor maim and immobilize, this is IMO needing some adjustments.

OBJnoob

I agree it needs adjustments. I looked over the skill and decided not to use it because I don't have the masters staff and it does terrible damage without-- but I have used it in duels. The immobilize and major maim are pretty handy. My first thought is major maim needs to go. And let it do the same damage as the others as compensation.

gariondavey

Back barring rally cry is 10x more useful than back barring wizards riposte.
Look at the stat density on rally cry, for starters.
Also, look at the length of the proc. 5 seconds.
Look at rally cry.
Lastly, rally cry buffs allies as well.

This is like comparing a 5 star meal to a piece of trash.

gariondavey

Also, what monster set is giving you 5 percent damage increase? I hope it isn't slimecraw, as that is the same named buff as what you get from bird of prey.
And finally, malacath on a class that gets a big boost to critical damage is almost always a bad idea. Sea serpent's coil or markyn would be better mythic jewelry choices.

OBJnoob

Well. I did a bg last night and it definitely didn't go well, LOL. So you're probably right. But... Entertain me if you will... Because I gave some thought to wizards riposte and I'd like to explain it to you to see if it changes your mind at all.

1) The 5 piece bonuses are pretty similar. Rallying cry 5th piece bonus diminishes if it hits your whole team. So it isn't quite as much as it reads.

2) entirely possible somebody else on my team already uses rallying cry so now I have both.

3) wizards riposte is also a team wide buff because it's a debuff on the enemy and effects them no matter who they hit.

4) defensively it's very similar, provided you're on the right bar, and offensively it isn't much of a loss because there's a line of spell damage.

OBJnoob

As for your other question, I'm getting the other 5% from prior thierric, not slimecraw.

With this setup, 3 pieces heavy armor, and 30 attribute points into HP, I still only had like 38k HP. Super confused how anybody can get 43k without ruining the rest of the build. Clever alchemist is part of the answer I suppose.

GetAgrippa

OBJ, I would think Critical Riposte would be a better set to back bar, if you're looking for something in that flavor. Critical Riposte debuff is 9 seconds long vs the 5 seconds from Wizard's Riposte. Just something to consider.

Caribou77

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I've seen plenty of wardens just spamming Frost Clench thanks to this update buffing wardens damage the frost staff. Having the master staff helps add more damage and it also applies major and minor maim and immobilize, this is IMO needing some adjustments.

Yeah, I get hit with frost clench a lot, and sometimes use it myself to proc the masters staff when I’m running crushing shock as my main spammable. Frost Clench is very low damage, though, even with masters staff buff it’s too weak to be an effective spammable, imo. It does pack a lot of utility though. Not sure if I’d call it OP. Frost reach with masters staff hits much harder, and actually gets kills occasionally.

Caribou77

OBJnoob wrote: »

With this setup, 3 pieces heavy armor, and 30 attribute points into HP, I still only had like 38k HP. Super confused how anybody can get 43k without ruining the rest of the build. Clever alchemist is part of the answer I suppose.

Yes, I also struggled to get my hp above 36ish when I’ve tried high hp magden builds. And as I’ve mentioned, while the healing from polar was phenomenal, I really struggled to get kills when building for crit/hp and sacrificing spell damage/pen. I’m inteterested to hear how your experiment goes, OBJ, please keep us posted.

ps on a mini vacation to Denver, so no ESO for a few days…

MEBengalsFan2001

Caribou77 wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I've seen plenty of wardens just spamming Frost Clench thanks to this update buffing wardens damage the frost staff. Having the master staff helps add more damage and it also applies major and minor maim and immobilize, this is IMO needing some adjustments.

Yeah, I get hit with frost clench a lot, and sometimes use it myself to proc the masters staff when I’m running crushing shock as my main spammable. Frost Clench is very low damage, though, even with masters staff buff it’s too weak to be an effective spammable, imo. It does pack a lot of utility though. Not sure if I’d call it OP. Frost reach with masters staff hits much harder, and actually gets kills occasionally.

It isn't frost clench itself that is killing players, the utility of it makes it a pain to deal with. Getting immobilize and having 15% damage taken away is really annoying and can cause a strong DPS to be become a wet noodle than we also are immobilized and can be easily get the status effect brittle making aa crit build warden burn through the opposing player rather easily.

Add to this scorch will now have an easier time hitting immobilized target, giving easier time on using dive, fetcher, etc... Warden has so many tools especially with a frost staff.

I'm just tired of running into two wardens running the healing morph of artic blast that simply keep them alive along with their ability to do all of what I listed above with a frost staff and using the warden class abilities.

The only classes I play that can go toe to toe are DK and NB. Other classes tools are not as effective. But Magden at the moment has the best tools.

GetAgrippa

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

It isn't frost clench itself that is killing players, the utility of it makes it a pain to deal with. Getting immobilize and having 15% damage taken away is really annoying and can cause a strong DPS to be become a wet noodle than we also are immobilized and can be easily get the status effect brittle making aa crit build warden burn through the opposing player rather easily.

Things are supposed to be a pain to deal with. If things weren't a pain do deal with, no one would die. If you don't want to get critted to death, run more impen or rallying cry or critical riposte or something. There are sets and traits in game to help you deal with these things.

OBJnoob

@Caribou77 Enjoy your vacation and yes I'll keep you posted. So far the setup feels about the same as my old setup. I didn't do good in the bg, but I only did 1. I did well in some duels, but dueling and bgs are two different things obviously.

I think the problem is my abilities not my gear. Now I'm aware Garion may be right that wizards riposte isn't as good as rallying cry. But I think it is an excellent point to make that if any of my teammates happen to be running rallying cry also then I am literally better off with anything else. Therefore I don't see that as being my problem.

My problem is how to set up my skills without arctic blast. And my problem is also that I played my magden the same way for a long time and now pressing the buttons isn't as blindfold easy as it was before. So some of the problems will go away as I, uh, learn to play. But still I think there is a problem.

Not loving crystal slab. First guy I dueled didn't even use any projectiles. Awesome. In the bg... I dunno. The stun on crystal slab is kinda pointless. It's okay defensively but you have no ability to combo it with anything because you really have no idea who it's gonna hit much less when. At least with shimmering shield you always benefit from the heroism.

Polar wind is a good heal... It's still level 1 for me I think. I hope the tooltip goes up as it levels because right now the burst is very similar to what arctic was. The HoT portion is obviously all gravy. Thing is I moved it to my backbar since it's only a heal now... And it scales with health, which I have more of on backbar. But I had gotten very used to having a heal on the front bar and I don't think I want to not. LOL.

Honestly... I think what I'm going to do is get the fighters guild on this guy so I can use dawnbreaker. Having a cheap ultimate with a stun on it would cure 90% of my issue.

@GetAgrippa I'll definitely look into your suggestion when I get online tonight. Thank you-- all help is much appreciated.

XiangliSYD

Frost reach with maste

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Caribou77 Enjoy your vacation and yes I'll keep you posted. So far the setup feels about the same as my old setup. I didn't do good in the bg, but I only did 1. I did well in some duels, but dueling and bgs are two different things obviously.

I think the problem is my abilities not my gear. Now I'm aware Garion may be right that wizards riposte isn't as good as rallying cry. But I think it is an excellent point to make that if any of my teammates happen to be running rallying cry also then I am literally better off with anything else. Therefore I don't see that as being my problem.

My problem is how to set up my skills without arctic blast. And my problem is also that I played my magden the same way for a long time and now pressing the buttons isn't as blindfold easy as it was before. So some of the problems will go away as I, uh, learn to play. But still I think there is a problem.

Not loving crystal slab. First guy I dueled didn't even use any projectiles. Awesome. In the bg... I dunno. The stun on crystal slab is kinda pointless. It's okay defensively but you have no ability to combo it with anything because you really have no idea who it's gonna hit much less when. At least with shimmering shield you always benefit from the heroism.

Polar wind is a good heal... It's still level 1 for me I think. I hope the tooltip goes up as it levels because right now the burst is very similar to what arctic was. The HoT portion is obviously all gravy. Thing is I moved it to my backbar since it's only a heal now... And it scales with health, which I have more of on backbar. But I had gotten very used to having a heal on the front bar and I don't think I want to not. LOL.

Honestly... I think what I'm going to do is get the fighters guild on this guy so I can use dawnbreaker. Having a cheap ultimate with a stun on it would cure 90% of my issue.

@GetAgrippa I'll definitely look into your suggestion when I get online tonight. Thank you-- all help is much appreciated.

Observation from a new Warden:

From Miracle's skill set up you can see that the focus is AOE pressure and suvivability (Splitting trap with Oblivion's foe and force pulse and perma frost). I am guessing that he also uses Balorgh to get some burst. AOE + not dying will give you those 2-3m+ damage in BGs.

I tried many Warden setups had more success in BGs (more K:D and quicker 1v1-2 wins) with a build similar to Dragoox's (Master ice, rallying cry, Wretched vitality, SSC) as you spend more time on your front bar with an on demand stun every 6 seconds with burst heal. Frost reach also feels better than force pulse. You really only go to backbar for buffs. My bar setup is FB: BOP, Deep Fissures, Arctic blast, Frost reach, Living vine, Dawnbreaker. BB: quick cloak, lotus, vigor, armor buff, Netty, healing ultimate.

With the above setup the most damage I have done in BGs is about 2m. My heal does not go to teammate (unless I aim my vine which I never do). Miracle's build is probably much much better in a group environment if he plays with premades or friends.

gariondavey

You need to understand stat density in sets. Even with hitting 4 targets, rallying cry is almost as strong as 2 5 piece sets. That's insane.

Sure, if you have someone for sure on your team with it already, you can back bar a different set. But there are way better ones you could pick. Kynemarcher's for example is like 50x better for a debuff set.
5 second cd on a back bar set is almost always a bad idea. Period.

OBJnoob

@XiangliSYD that's very good observation I think. I'm sure the experience between solo que and group que is very different in what's needed. It really would explain why I feel I need arctic so much.

@gariondavey Ah jeez you're right. Rallying cry is awesome I'm just trying to find something different. Wizards riposte isn't the answer I suppose. Drat.

Something amusing for everyone perhaps-- so I haven't given up on polar wind yet. It's a good skill and I want to make it work. I went ahead and got dawnbreaker on my guy because I truly think that will tie this all together. Dueled a couple people last night to stalemate... Continued the fight longer than I normally would just to practice my new rotations. Couldn't get dawnbreaker to stun and proc Hrothgar's for the life of me. I remember dawny missing a fair amount due to positional desync on some of my other characters so I didn't think much of it at first. When the fight got over the guy said gg and I said "gg, man, did you block every single dawnbreaker?" He had run off so I didn't get my answer. Later when I was getting ready for bed I realized my Dawnbreaker doesn't stun yet because I haven't morphed it. LOL. This is what happens when noobs buy skill lines from crown stores.

Syiccal

Reach or clench, what's the preffered

gariondavey

I don't know why you are being rude to me when I am just giving you mathematical knowledge

Edit: It is possible I am misinterpreting your comment in your ping to me. If you instead said something about kynemarchers, or about other good back bar debuff sets, I would feel much more confident that you aren't being defensive.

OBJnoob

@gariondavey Yes you are misinterpreting. You're assuming I was being sarcastic I think? I was being literal.

XiangliSYD

gariondavey wrote: »

I don't know why you are being rude to me when I am just giving you mathematical knowledge

Edit: It is possible I am misinterpreting your comment in your ping to me. If you instead said something about kynemarchers, or about other good back bar debuff sets, I would feel much more confident that you aren't being defensive.

I am now guessing that Miracle's 2nd set is Clever Alchemist as it provides both HP and burst.

I will practice Miracle's build more in BGs and see how it goes - I am in high MMR.

Miracle19

XiangliSYD wrote: »

Frost reach with maste

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Caribou77 Enjoy your vacation and yes I'll keep you posted. So far the setup feels about the same as my old setup. I didn't do good in the bg, but I only did 1. I did well in some duels, but dueling and bgs are two different things obviously.

I think the problem is my abilities not my gear. Now I'm aware Garion may be right that wizards riposte isn't as good as rallying cry. But I think it is an excellent point to make that if any of my teammates happen to be running rallying cry also then I am literally better off with anything else. Therefore I don't see that as being my problem.

My problem is how to set up my skills without arctic blast. And my problem is also that I played my magden the same way for a long time and now pressing the buttons isn't as blindfold easy as it was before. So some of the problems will go away as I, uh, learn to play. But still I think there is a problem.

Not loving crystal slab. First guy I dueled didn't even use any projectiles. Awesome. In the bg... I dunno. The stun on crystal slab is kinda pointless. It's okay defensively but you have no ability to combo it with anything because you really have no idea who it's gonna hit much less when. At least with shimmering shield you always benefit from the heroism.

Polar wind is a good heal... It's still level 1 for me I think. I hope the tooltip goes up as it levels because right now the burst is very similar to what arctic was. The HoT portion is obviously all gravy. Thing is I moved it to my backbar since it's only a heal now... And it scales with health, which I have more of on backbar. But I had gotten very used to having a heal on the front bar and I don't think I want to not. LOL.

Honestly... I think what I'm going to do is get the fighters guild on this guy so I can use dawnbreaker. Having a cheap ultimate with a stun on it would cure 90% of my issue.

@GetAgrippa I'll definitely look into your suggestion when I get online tonight. Thank you-- all help is much appreciated.

Observation from a new Warden:

From Miracle's skill set up you can see that the focus is AOE pressure and suvivability (Splitting trap with Oblivion's foe and force pulse and perma frost). I am guessing that he also uses Balorgh to get some burst. AOE + not dying will give you those 2-3m+ damage in BGs.

I tried many Warden setups had more success in BGs (more K:D and quicker 1v1-2 wins) with a build similar to Dragoox's (Master ice, rallying cry, Wretched vitality, SSC) as you spend more time on your front bar with an on demand stun every 6 seconds with burst heal. Frost reach also feels better than force pulse. You really only go to backbar for buffs. My bar setup is FB: BOP, Deep Fissures, Arctic blast, Frost reach, Living vine, Dawnbreaker. BB: quick cloak, lotus, vigor, armor buff, Netty, healing ultimate.

With the above setup the most damage I have done in BGs is about 2m. My heal does not go to teammate (unless I aim my vine which I never do). Miracle's build is probably much much better in a group environment if he plays with premades or friends.

You have overall a pretty good understanding of the setup. I have 7 dots total and most of my targets can't get on the offense b/c of pressure, fp and shalks will nuke at that point. It works great in both 1v1 and group scenarios, even outnumbered as well.

Sets are a good bit off, but I'm sure with testing, you will figure it out. I've given you the foundation! Good luck

gariondavey

OBJnoob wrote: »

@gariondavey Yes you are misinterpreting. You're assuming I was being sarcastic I think? I was being literal.

Ah ok, sorry then. Other than a debuff set, a buff set like powerful assault or olorime could be really nice if you are looking for more easy team synergy if someone else has rallying cry

OBJnoob

Went back to my old gear setup but with the new abilities... The build does work much better with dawnbreaker, so I'm pretty happy overall. So originally I was running Hrothgar's and rallying cry, and then I switched to orders wrath and rallying cry. I still go back and forth between them, can't really decide which is better. I feel like popular opinion is orders wrath but I'm really leaning towards Hrothgar.

I feel like since orders wrath effects critical damage and healing it'd really shine on both bars. I only have 1 heal on front bar, so the bonus is largely wasted. And without doing any frost damage, I'm losing out on minor brittle. So that half of the bonus is pretty wasted too. Hrothgar's does AoE damage, AoE chilled, and AoE brittle, resulting in 10% more critical damage done as opposed to 8. So all I'm really missing out on is critical chance. But I'm gaining 2% critical damage done, a proc, and a status effect. Not to mention a little armor and more max health.

Anyway... So I was playing a crazy king yesterday and my team was just nowhere to be found. I'm running around trying to get some flags and meeting enemies 2, 3, or 2 AND 2 at a time. I don't know if it's fair to say I was putting up a good "fight," I was locked on defensive for large amounts of time, but holy cow my survivability felt fantastic. We are talking about good players beating on me... Like probably better than me, but I was playing pretty good. I finished the game 3 and 3... A small miracle in itself... And at one point someone entertained me by engaging me in a 1v1. A welcome distraction by this point. I won, and they whispered me gg but told me someone else hit them there at the end. I have no doubt they told the truth... Not a big deal to me either way, and I told them how I'd been ganged up on for 10 minutes straight and felt like I accomplished nothing. They told me they thought I did really well and invited me to their guild. Made me feel good. Might get into some premades here soon, we'll see, I'm not always very social. End of story

gariondavey

Glad you are seeing improvements and making friends in pvp circles