In Depth Imperial City Rework Idea - The PVP content ESO needs in 2023

Grimsforge

I love everything about this concept and as a "sewer rat" who has leveled 200+ themed characters (mostly in IC and BGs) support this 100%!

This may fall into their "End of the 3 Banner War" plans as well!

MAKE IT HAPPEN!

gariondavey

Stamicka wrote: »

React wrote: »

I think that this idea goes quite a bit further to provide content for PVE players and achievement hunters than you're giving it credit for. Through this rework, the most profitable ways to make gold and the fastest ways to advance your telvar rank will be killing mobs/bosses, both up top AND in the sewers. A group limit of 8 certainly doesn't force people into small groups either. This rework allows people to farm in areas where they couldn't before, away from the open-air districts where they are much more likely to encounter other players. I think it would be MUCH more appealing to non-PVP focused players than it is currently.

I understand that the proposed changes provide PVE content, but the PVE content is in an area with unoptional pvp. This is an automatic deal breaker for most of ESOs population. There’s a reason many MMOs with both PvP and PvE allow you to unflag for PvP. Many PvErs hate the competitive nature of PvP. Even if they die once they will claim that you are “griefing” them and ruining their experience. In fact I see this sort of thing in IC already. Any zone with PvP is a repellent for most PVErs, it doesn’t matter how good the rewards are. They’re basically playing a different game altogether. These sorts of people make up the majority of ESO’s population now. It really is a good idea on paper, but current ESO is far too casual and only the smallest portion of the population plays ESO like a competitive game. If released, this version of IC would die very quickly.

This version of ic would flourish.

DrSlaughtr

Stamicka wrote: »

React wrote: »

I think that this idea goes quite a bit further to provide content for PVE players and achievement hunters than you're giving it credit for. Through this rework, the most profitable ways to make gold and the fastest ways to advance your telvar rank will be killing mobs/bosses, both up top AND in the sewers. A group limit of 8 certainly doesn't force people into small groups either. This rework allows people to farm in areas where they couldn't before, away from the open-air districts where they are much more likely to encounter other players. I think it would be MUCH more appealing to non-PVP focused players than it is currently.

I understand that the proposed changes provide PVE content, but the PVE content is in an area with unoptional pvp. This is an automatic deal breaker for most of ESOs population. There’s a reason many MMOs with both PvP and PvE allow you to unflag for PvP. Many PvErs hate the competitive nature of PvP. Even if they die once they will claim that you are “griefing” them and ruining their experience. In fact I see this sort of thing in IC already. Any zone with PvP is a repellent for most PVErs, it doesn’t matter how good the rewards are. They’re basically playing a different game altogether. These sorts of people make up the majority of ESO’s population now. It really is a good idea on paper, but current ESO is far too casual and only the smallest portion of the population plays ESO like a competitive game. If released, this version of IC would die very quickly.

There are more "PVE" quests in Cyrodiil than Imperial City.

No one needs telvar to play this game. No one needs AP to play this game. If you choose to go into a PVP zone, you should be ready to PVP. I would LOVE to be able to buy all dungeon and arena gear with AP but guess what, I can't. I have to go slog through x dungeon a million times to get gear just like PvErs. I have to gamble with keys to get shoulders because who knows when or if that particular set will be in the golden.

IC is already dead. Telvar is the lure to get players in there, whether they want to PVP or not. What next, a bot Battlegrounds so PvErs can earn BG style pages without having to fight for it?

Stamicka

ninjagank wrote: »

There are more "PVE" quests in Cyrodiil than Imperial City.

No one needs telvar to play this game. No one needs AP to play this game. If you choose to go into a PVP zone, you should be ready to PVP. I would LOVE to be able to buy all dungeon and arena gear with AP but guess what, I can't. I have to go slog through x dungeon a million times to get gear just like PvErs. I have to gamble with keys to get shoulders because who knows when or if that particular set will be in the golden.

IC is already dead. Telvar is the lure to get players in there, whether they want to PVP or not. What next, a bot Battlegrounds so PvErs can earn BG style pages without having to fight for it?

I love PvP myself and I agree that you should expect PvP in a PvP zone. However, I’m aware of what ESO is turning into and the types of players that it is attracting. People are failing to understand that ESO does not have enough of the types of players it needs to make these types of ideas work. It's the same reason why separate BG queues are a great idea on paper, but not in practice because there's not enough BG players to make it work. It sucks, but it's reality.

Amottica

I have found free-for-all PvP boring, and in a zone that is pretty much dead outside of events, it would be even worse. If Zenimax decides to do such a PvP somewhere, the groups should be limited to 4 players if grouping is permitted at all. No grouping would probably be better and provide a more lively experience and six to eight in a group is far to much for that type of experience IMHO.

As for a secondary PvP rank, one is enough. If we add a second one for IC then we need a third one for BGs. That is where that idea would go and demonstrates why it should not happen.

CameraBeardThePirate

Stamicka wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

There are more "PVE" quests in Cyrodiil than Imperial City.

No one needs telvar to play this game. No one needs AP to play this game. If you choose to go into a PVP zone, you should be ready to PVP. I would LOVE to be able to buy all dungeon and arena gear with AP but guess what, I can't. I have to go slog through x dungeon a million times to get gear just like PvErs. I have to gamble with keys to get shoulders because who knows when or if that particular set will be in the golden.

IC is already dead. Telvar is the lure to get players in there, whether they want to PVP or not. What next, a bot Battlegrounds so PvErs can earn BG style pages without having to fight for it?

I love PvP myself and I agree that you should expect PvP in a PvP zone. However, I’m aware of what ESO is turning into and the types of players that it is attracting. People are failing to understand that ESO does not have enough of the types of players it needs to make these types of ideas work. It's the same reason why separate BG queues are a great idea on paper, but not in practice because there's not enough BG players to make it work. It sucks, but it's reality.

This isn't really a good way to look at it. Saying that we shouldn't push for new, serious PvP content because the population isn't there is backwards. The population isn't there right now precisely because PvP hasn't received any updates in ages. Adding something like this would likely pull some people back into the game and would definitely get more people interested in more "hardcore" PvP.

Stamicka

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

There are more "PVE" quests in Cyrodiil than Imperial City.

No one needs telvar to play this game. No one needs AP to play this game. If you choose to go into a PVP zone, you should be ready to PVP. I would LOVE to be able to buy all dungeon and arena gear with AP but guess what, I can't. I have to go slog through x dungeon a million times to get gear just like PvErs. I have to gamble with keys to get shoulders because who knows when or if that particular set will be in the golden.

IC is already dead. Telvar is the lure to get players in there, whether they want to PVP or not. What next, a bot Battlegrounds so PvErs can earn BG style pages without having to fight for it?

I love PvP myself and I agree that you should expect PvP in a PvP zone. However, I’m aware of what ESO is turning into and the types of players that it is attracting. People are failing to understand that ESO does not have enough of the types of players it needs to make these types of ideas work. It's the same reason why separate BG queues are a great idea on paper, but not in practice because there's not enough BG players to make it work. It sucks, but it's reality.

This isn't really a good way to look at it. Saying that we shouldn't push for new, serious PvP content because the population isn't there is backwards. The population isn't there right now precisely because PvP hasn't received any updates in ages. Adding something like this would likely pull some people back into the game and would definitely get more people interested in more "hardcore" PvP.

I disagree, there are so many other reasons why this game doesn’t attract PvPers anymore. For starters, there are all types of performance issues in the game that stop PvP from being fully enjoyed. Additionally, the game is not even a competitive game. Sure skill plays some part in the outcome of a fight, but it is possible to outbuild your opponent or give yourself an advantage by being on the strongest class at the time. Next, the time to kill is extremely high. This has been an issue for a long time and the current state of cross healing only worsens this issue. Surviving is very easy if you build for it and many players give up their damage altogether just so they don’t easily die. Finally, the devs actively try to close the skill gap and nerf skill expression.

How will you attract serious PvPers with all those issues? Most players that actually enjoy competitive games will immediately see that ESO does not provide an environment for competition. It seems like ZOS has no plans to actually support competitive players in the future. If you want any PvP content to succeed, PvP combat needs to reward skill and it needs some extreme balance adjustments. This is the opposite of what ZOS is doing right now.

gariondavey

Naw, camera is right

Amottica

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, camera is right

He has it right from the PvP player's perspective. However, from the perspective of Zenimax, they will look at ROCE or return their investment to determine what it best for the game overall. They will also look at the balance of what they intend and have intended for the game.

It is a business after all and Zenimax has not found a way to monetize PvP. They tried with BGs, but clearly, that did not work.
That alone is the biggest issue and likely the most significant reason Zenimax has not done more with PvP.

Xandreia_

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, camera is right

It is a business after all and Zenimax has not found a way to monetize PvP. They tried with BGs, but clearly, that did not work.
That alone is the biggest issue and likely the most significant reason Zenimax has not done more with PvP.

that is zenimax's problem imo, thinking too much about business and less about people play their game. they dont think that they have something unique (the only reason alot of people play eso is for the unique pvp) so they push pve every 3 months. these ic ideas are the least that they could consider after neglecting pvp for years.

DrSlaughtr

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, camera is right

He has it right from the PvP player's perspective. However, from the perspective of Zenimax, they will look at ROCE or return their investment to determine what it best for the game overall. They will also look at the balance of what they intend and have intended for the game.

It is a business after all and Zenimax has not found a way to monetize PvP. They tried with BGs, but clearly, that did not work.
That alone is the biggest issue and likely the most significant reason Zenimax has not done more with PvP.

They have, though. It's called ESO+. Whether they pretend like it's not a subscription doesn't matter, because it essentially is. That's guaranteed money they are getting every month. Most PVPers I know have it. If they are not satisfied with the number of players, PVP or otherwise, who subscribe, then that is a failure on their part for not including more with it than just a craft bag, crowns, and DLC access.

Ominer

Trandaner wrote: »

I agree with all the proposed changes and would like to add to fix all the safezones (being able to streak/bunnyhop into them).

Agreed, I'd like it to be a stealth change too, so not released in the patch notes so I can watch people who exploit into these areas get insta killed and lose all their telvar (same as when you try to leap into safe zones at bg spawns).

MipMip

Totally agree with OP - that would be great!

React

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, camera is right

He has it right from the PvP player's perspective. However, from the perspective of Zenimax, they will look at ROCE or return their investment to determine what it best for the game overall. They will also look at the balance of what they intend and have intended for the game.

It is a business after all and Zenimax has not found a way to monetize PvP. They tried with BGs, but clearly, that did not work.
That alone is the biggest issue and likely the most significant reason Zenimax has not done more with PvP.

Almost every PVP player I know is a paid subscription. Most of them buy crown crates & cosmetics as well, because what better place is there to flex them other than PVP?

I do feel like if they've determined the PVP portion of the playerbase is not a profitable portion, it is primarily due to the lack of content and interest in the game. I am certain that if they did a rework like this, or released any other significant PVP content, there would be an influx of PVP players and thus income from subscriptions and other purchases. Especially things like race changes, alliance changes, & skill lines - all of which are very popular purchases amongst PVP players.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, camera is right

He has it right from the PvP player's perspective. However, from the perspective of Zenimax, they will look at ROCE or return their investment to determine what it best for the game overall. They will also look at the balance of what they intend and have intended for the game.

It is a business after all and Zenimax has not found a way to monetize PvP. They tried with BGs, but clearly, that did not work.
That alone is the biggest issue and likely the most significant reason Zenimax has not done more with PvP.

Almost every PVP player I know is a paid subscription. Most of them buy crown crates & cosmetics as well, because what better place is there to flex them other than PVP?

I do feel like if they've determined the PVP portion of the playerbase is not a profitable portion, it is primarily due to the lack of content and interest in the game. I am certain that if they did a rework like this, or released any other significant PVP content, there would be an influx of PVP players and thus income from subscriptions and other purchases. Especially things like race changes, alliance changes, & skill lines - all of which are very popular purchases amongst PVP players.

100%. You can't expect people to pay money if you don't give them content to spend money on. I can attest that nearly everyone I PVP with also has ESO+.

Are PVP players as profitable as players who primarily do housing? Likely not, because of how flipping expensive houses and furniture are. Are they as profitable as merchant lords? Likely not, because they might buy crowns to sell, or indirectly lead to the same behavior in their guilds. But that doesn't mean we don't contribute and don't deserve attention and respect.

This game launched with PVP a huge focus and even on low pop nights on XB, GH is locked and BR is active. If ZOS cannot adequately figure out how to monetize this population, then that is on them. They are the ones that decreed earlier this year that 2022 was the year of no PVP content because of supposed hardware refreshes that only ONE megaserver has received.

It also doesn't help when certain people connected to the game call players crybabies for expecting the game to function as advertised. If anything, we're the dumb ones for continuing to support the system as is, and yet we do, because when it works, it's great PVP, and we hope that at some point these hardware, software and meta issues will be addressed properly.

BlakMarket

BUMP

@ZOS_GinaBruno please hire @React his feedback is meticulous & incredibly healthy for PVP.

Miracle19

I like this idea, it would solve a lot of problems and could make hosting tournements a lot easier

blktauna

They need to have a pvp arena house. Watch that fly off the shlves.

Elendir2am

As PvE endgame player (I do PvP as well) to PvP players. We both don't matter as much as you think in cause of monetization of ESO.

Making content for casual players (fishermans, housekeepers, role players) and make money from it is much easier. They have bigger numbers, lower demands. It is better to focuse on them for ZOS from business point of view.

PvP and endgame PvE is nice decoration. We can make game look better in various social medias, so ZOS will carry us along with them. Expecting more privileged position will lead only to disappointment.

Block bug is good example of it. It has big impact on PvP and PvE, but minimal impact on casuals. So we have it still in game now.

xylena_lazarow

Elendir2am wrote: »

As PvE endgame player (I do PvP as well) to PvP players. We both don't matter as much as you think in cause of monetization of ESO.

So why do they keep messing with the PvP combat balance? This PvP would be better if the past few years of blanket nerfs specifically targeting PvP damage never happened. They did not need to pay someone to do that.

DirtyWizard

Haven't played ESO in a while, but in the early days of the game, Imperial City with the boys was the best times we ever had. I loved every part of the IC. Leveling up characters by killing the mobs, being able to practice my PvP skill without being overwhelmed by the large groups of Cyrodiil, and having a part of the game that I felt like was well suited to what I wanted. Over the years, they made some small changes, such as adding alchemy bags and introducing / updating a few tel var sets, adding the flags, things like that, but it always felt like it had been left out to dry.

I think the ideas in this post are well thought out and would certainly be a good starting point for breathing new life into this zone. ESO was, and I think still is, a very good game. It has suffered horribly from poor performance primarily, but PvP in general has not received as much attention compared to cosmetics and PvE content.

FFA PvP would be very interesting, however, based on my experience in the IC and what I believe to be the case right now regarding population, I think group size would have to be no more than 6. Numbers don't count for everything, and it is certainly possible through careful timing and skilled play that a small group can defeat a larger one, but there is little room for error. larger groups can more easily accomodate dedicated support players that can make defeating them with a smaller group quite unlikely. A common problem I experienced in the IC was that large groups tended to make everybody just leave, and kill the zone for the duration of their time there. obviously a FFA environment would change that somewhat, but initially i would be skeptical about an 8 man group, but who knows really.

If anyone knows PvP, it is this guy, who I remember as one of the most skilled players I ever played against during my time in the game. Hopefully ESO can be redeemed. It is a one-of-a-kind game, certainly on Xbox where I played. There has been no other game that comes close to replicating the experience of a massive keep battle in Cyrodiil, or the heart racing intensity of an unexpected encounter in the sewers.

Iriidius

Reducing maximum group size to 6-8 people to destroy 12 man group dominance will make 6-8 man groups unstoppable. 6-8 man groups are still enaugh to easily kill solos, duos, trios and 4 mens without counterplay and will attack them on sight and chase them over the map until they die. Playing without group would be even harder because players/groups of your own alliance you could follow would also be your enemys.
Having flags in IC to take is nice, but needing them to respawn is dumb when each faction has its own respawn and destroys pvp battles, while the tel var bonus for owning flags makes me not want to farm tel var when I dont have most districts.
Maybe owning a district could open the gate to a PvP version of the central district and white gold tower.
Maybe freeforallPvP/Group vs EveryoneElse PvP could be added to a PvP version of Imperial City Prison, while solo vs everyone else could be added to Imperial City Library.

It is also stupid that you cant use doors when you see a 6 men group in 30 meter distance because 1 of them hit you with a poison injection and have to fight althought you have a 0.0% chance to win this fight.

Cast_El

In IC I play against same people every time 🤣. And once a monthe, some noob carrying 15k tel var with 20-25k health...I would love to see new players coming

Thecompton73

Truthfully this seems a bit overly complicated. I'd be happy if they'd just remove the flags and went back to the old spawn system where you could instantly respawn in any district. But they also need to add something to the loot list of drops that is essential for everyone to farm to ensure a viable population. IC was packed for the first few months of it's existance because it was the only place to get lvl160 mats, once they started dropping outside IC it became the half bar for any alliance ghost town that it is today.

gariondavey

@ZOS_Kevin this would be so nice if q4 included a small scale rework of ic.

Solariken

I love and support this concept. Keep group size limited to 4 though; any bigger and it's just more of the same zerg feel.

SmellyUnlimited

It sounds like a great plan, although I think the across the board tel var rate increases are a bit on the high side. The issue I’m having is with “grouping” in what’s described as a “free for all.” How would grouping actually work? If you can attack any player in IC, then are we assuming friendly-fire is also part of the mix? What’s to stop a group member from simply killing you and taking your tel var after a particularly good run. It’s a free for all. I don’t see how grouping could feasibly be implemented in a free for all environment.

React

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

It sounds like a great plan, although I think the across the board tel var rate increases are a bit on the high side. The issue I’m having is with “grouping” in what’s described as a “free for all.” How would grouping actually work? If you can attack any player in IC, then are we assuming friendly-fire is also part of the mix? What’s to stop a group member from simply killing you and taking your tel var after a particularly good run. It’s a free for all. I don’t see how grouping could feasibly be implemented in a free for all environment.

So FFA PVP would work exactly how battlegrounds do - regardless of your alliance, the players you are grouped with are "friendly" players. Everyone outside your group is an enemy player. No friendly fire on grouped players. You can only add or remove players from your group whilst out of combat, in a safe zone. Group size of around 6-8 to prevent "ball groups" from dominating.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

React wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

It sounds like a great plan, although I think the across the board tel var rate increases are a bit on the high side. The issue I’m having is with “grouping” in what’s described as a “free for all.” How would grouping actually work? If you can attack any player in IC, then are we assuming friendly-fire is also part of the mix? What’s to stop a group member from simply killing you and taking your tel var after a particularly good run. It’s a free for all. I don’t see how grouping could feasibly be implemented in a free for all environment.

Group size of around 6-8 to prevent "ball groups" from dominating.

6-8m is more than enough to be able to dominate as a ball group vs the sizes of players you get in IC. Ironically it would be better the have a higher group cap but reduce the effectiveness of group buff sets in IC to have a better chance against them.

This way a zerg can more easily coordinate against said groups.

Kartalin

You can have a tightly coordinated, specced out group at 6 or 8 people and faceroll other groups in Cyro right now (minus the actually-good ball groups), so it would still be pretty strong in a modified IC environment. At 4 people in a group in IC you could probably still dominate too but the margins of error are greater and make them more manageable. So maybe max group of 4 is a little more reasonable.

It's also a fact we have no idea what population sizes we're dealing with in IC. 40 per side currently?