Crit Resist Mundus

DrNukenstein

Could this be the bridge that opens PVP up to PVE'rs?

Could making "the warrior" a crit resist Mundus be the solution to the now pointless distinction between weapon and spell damage?

Dem_kitkats1

I think it will take more than that to make PvP more accessible to PvErs. I agree though, 1 mundus for spell/weapon damage, and converting the Warrior to something else makes sense. However, I worry about adding more mitigation to the game in it's current state.

DrNukenstein

For me, what made it possible to live long enough to recognize my mistakes with out compromising hard on damage was getting 8% crit resist. It sounds small, but that much crit resist makes it feel like an entirely different game. If a set of divines could give enough crit resist to negate the shadow, then PVEr's could get that nice layer of crit resist that makes pvp feel possible.

I'd wager that adding another source of crit resist wouldn't lead to players stacking crit resist more than they do already. It's very potent, but like other very potent stats it's only strong to a point. Once you have full impen gear, more crit resist becomes a trade off against other stats. The next smallest drop in damage or general defense from picking up crit resist is rallying cry back bar, which is still going to give less damage or defense than a second frontbarred 5 piece dedicated to either.

YandereGirlfriend

This is a really good idea.

Something like Sturdy Horn could also stand to be buffed in duration to make it more appealing for regular groups to use.

DrSlaughtr

You already get crit resistance for free. I believe it's 1320. We're talking about 15% reduction for just existing. That's significant. Most NBs not named me run well under 125% crit damage.

You already get a 55% damage reduction in battle spirit.

You can negate an additional 27% crit damage via impen.

They have nerfed crit damage AND crit % in the last year.

We have never had a tank meta like the one we're in where 90% of cyrodiil is walking around with an average 38k health.

If you are a pver who wants to get into PVP, now is the time if all you care about is not dying. Unfortunately some people think this is how you learn to PVP. It's the opposite. This is how you learn to be lazy and get upset because your poorly defended 45k tank got soloed.

We need to stop this madness. If someone wants to PVP, join a guild, get good gear, and expect to die a lot. This is how you get better at the game.

DrNukenstein

Alternatively, the apprentice could also work since someone using this mundus would be an "apprentice" of pvp while they work on a good set of impen gear which would give as much or more crit resist at less of a damage cost.

baselesschart

I don't think its a bad idea. Especially with all these nightblades running around with React Faster's build, there is a ton of crit damage going around. Definitely not going to be a bridge for PvE players into PvP though. Lowering the bar to make it accessible to lower skilled players is not a good idea.

DrSlaughtr

baselesschart wrote: »

I don't think its a bad idea. Especially with all these nightblades running around with React Faster's build, there is a ton of crit damage going around. Definitely not going to be a bridge for PvE players into PvP though. Lowering the bar to make it accessible to lower skilled players is not a good idea.

Crit has been nerfed across the board.

We're already in a tank meta. The only thing countering this overhealing mess is crit damage damage and just because assassin's will hits hard is not enough to give away another source of damage negation.

baselesschart

ninjagank wrote: »

Crit has been nerfed across the board.

We're already in a tank meta. The only thing countering this overheating mess is crit damage damage and just because assassin's will hits hard is not enough to give away another source of damage negation.

People don't even really run heavy crit resist, not like they did in the past. Which would explain in part why crits hit so hard. Even with crits hitting hard, its not countering the tank meta. There are still builds that enable you to survive even against a full damage critblade. Healing and damage mitigation need an entire rework imo, and until then, balance is going to be horrible.

Amottica

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

I think it will take more than that to make PvP more accessible to PvErs. I agree though, 1 mundus for spell/weapon damage, and converting the Warrior to something else makes sense. However, I worry about adding more mitigation to the game in it's current state.

I agree on both points.

To the added crit resist making PvP more accessible to PvEers, the main reason why PvEers stay away from PvP has nothing to do with the added crit damage. They just do not want to do PvP and in all probability, it is because it is not predictable like PvE is. Their best bet is to run with a group as there is a degree of safety in numbers though death will still happen.

WrathOfInnos

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Alternatively, the apprentice could also work since someone using this mundus would be an "apprentice" of pvp while they work on a good set of impen gear which would give as much or more crit resist at less of a damage cost.

Great idea. Then the Warrior could simply be a hybrid Weapon + Spell Damage.

DrSlaughtr

But to mention that the reason why skills like assassin's will hit so hard is because of sets like rallying cry and balorgs doing an the heavy lifting.

OnGodiDoDis

What do you mean by "more accessible"? Are PvErs not able to access PvP areas? PvP zones aren't locked behind paywalls like PvE zones every three months. If by "more accessible" you mean "not die", then I think you may have the wrong idea. The reason PvP is in a tank meta right now is because people go into a combat zone without the intent to die. They just want to kill, kill, kill. What we need is more damage, not more damage mitigation. The Warrior mundus would do every one a favor by adding 10% damage to targets under 50% HP.

YandereGirlfriend

ninjagank wrote: »

You already get crit resistance for free. I believe it's 1320. We're talking about 15% reduction for just existing. That's significant. Most NBs not named me run well under 125% crit damage.

You already get a 55% damage reduction in battle spirit.

You can negate an additional 27% crit damage via impen.

They have nerfed crit damage AND crit % in the last year.

We have never had a tank meta like the one we're in where 90% of cyrodiil is walking around with an average 38k health.

If you are a pver who wants to get into PVP, now is the time if all you care about is not dying. Unfortunately some people think this is how you learn to PVP. It's the opposite. This is how you learn to be lazy and get upset because your poorly defended 45k tank got soloed.

We need to stop this madness. If someone wants to PVP, join a guild, get good gear, and expect to die a lot. This is how you get better at the game.

Just want to correct a few numbers in here:

You get 20% Crit Resistance via Battle Spirit as 1320 / 66 = 20

You get ~13% from Full Impen as 127 * 7 = 889 / 66 = 13.5 (15 if you also use an Impen shield)

Overall, I agree with your sentiment at the end that new PvP players need to adjust their expectations to include dying a lot. But I also think that you're getting way too caught up in the particular circumstances of the current meta and dismissing what would be a positive change/interesting build option in a healthier balance context. It's also hard to get around the clear self-interest that you have in preserving the power of your own build and playstyle, haha.

DrNukenstein

When I say more accessible I mean:

What makes pvp a different game is that critical chance by itself is turned into a dud stat once you go from 30% effective crit damage (with base crit resist) to 16% effective crit damage (full impen). It's that 13% crit resist that enforces different itemization in pvp. Currently to follow this unofficial rule, you need gear designed for it. Giving more players a way to get that crucial layer of critical resist outside of specific (and often expensive) gear choices would open the possibility to "exist" in pvp to more players. I wouldn't stack it on top of impen, and it would always cost more damage than impen for ideally 2% less crit resist in full divines, but it would be a way for more players to get what they need to even have a chance at learning pvp.

This wouldn't address poor reward and ladder systems, or out of control balance issues. I think it would open the floor though.

DrSlaughtr

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You already get crit resistance for free. I believe it's 1320. We're talking about 15% reduction for just existing. That's significant. Most NBs not named me run well under 125% crit damage.

You already get a 55% damage reduction in battle spirit.

You can negate an additional 27% crit damage via impen.

They have nerfed crit damage AND crit % in the last year.

We have never had a tank meta like the one we're in where 90% of cyrodiil is walking around with an average 38k health.

If you are a pver who wants to get into PVP, now is the time if all you care about is not dying. Unfortunately some people think this is how you learn to PVP. It's the opposite. This is how you learn to be lazy and get upset because your poorly defended 45k tank got soloed.

We need to stop this madness. If someone wants to PVP, join a guild, get good gear, and expect to die a lot. This is how you get better at the game.

Just want to correct a few numbers in here:

You get 20% Crit Resistance via Battle Spirit as 1320 / 66 = 20

You get ~13% from Full Impen as 127 * 7 = 889 / 66 = 13.5 (15 if you also use an Impen shield)

Overall, I agree with your sentiment at the end that new PvP players need to adjust their expectations to include dying a lot. But I also think that you're getting way too caught up in the particular circumstances of the current meta and dismissing what would be a positive change/interesting build option in a healthier balance context. It's also hard to get around the clear self-interest that you have in preserving the power of your own build and playstyle, haha.

If all I cared about was my own "self interests" I wouldn't be advocating for decreasing damage taken and healing received in BS as I benefit from both as they currently are. The issue with this suggestion is you already have people ignoring investment in penetration because you can get 11.5k pen from balorgs. So there is no drawback of putting on a stupid mundus that gives a stupid amount of crit resist.

Critical damage is the only counter to tank builds. I guess it makes sense tank players would want yet another way to negate it.

DrNukenstein

As a crit damage enthusiast myself, I'd like players who don't already walk around in all impen all the time to have a way to try crit resist before they buy it.

Dem_kitkats1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

For me, what made it possible to live long enough to recognize my mistakes with out compromising hard on damage was getting 8% crit resist. It sounds small, but that much crit resist makes it feel like an entirely different game. If a set of divines could give enough crit resist to negate the shadow, then PVEr's could get that nice layer of crit resist that makes pvp feel possible.

I can understand wanting to give more mitigation to new players to help them survive longer. However, there are already so many options in regards to defense and mobility that there comes a point where players simply need to learn and cultivate their skills by playing and practicing. As it is, we are already seeing the tipping point of overly trying to empower those at the bottom.

Survivability is definitely 1 aspect in gaining more skill, but more importantly, the experience needs to have an element of fun and be rewarding to retain interest. New players are always going to die more quickly and often no matter what. However, with amount of healing and mitigation that experienced players have access to there is also no reward for new players. When I was new to PvP I remember it was the healing and mitigation of experienced players that made PvP feel hopeless. It was a defeating experience that a group of us inexperienced players couldn't take down 1 player, while he simultaneously killed all of us. If it wasn't for my friends, I would've completely turned my back on PvP because of those experiences. IMO mitigation is a small blessing, but a much larger curse for new players.

DrSlaughtr

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

For me, what made it possible to live long enough to recognize my mistakes with out compromising hard on damage was getting 8% crit resist. It sounds small, but that much crit resist makes it feel like an entirely different game. If a set of divines could give enough crit resist to negate the shadow, then PVEr's could get that nice layer of crit resist that makes pvp feel possible.

I can understand wanting to give more mitigation to new players to help them survive longer. However, there are already so many options in regards to defense and mobility that there comes a point where players simply need to learn and cultivate their skills by playing and practicing. As it is, we are already seeing the tipping point of overly trying to empower those at the bottom.

Survivability is definitely 1 aspect in gaining more skill, but more importantly, the experience needs to have an element of fun and be rewarding to retain interest. New players are always going to die more quickly and often no matter what. However, with amount of healing and mitigation that experienced players have access to, there is also no reward for new players. When I was new to PvP I remember it was the healing and mitigation of experienced players that made PvP feel hopeless. It was a defeating experience that a group of us inexperienced players couldn't take down 1 player, while he simultaneously killed all of us. If it wasn't for my friends, I would've completely turned my back on PvP because of those experiences. IMO mitigation is a small blessing, but a much larger curse for new players.

100%.

What I think some people are missing (and should have been evident during oakensoul's rule) is that any advantage you give to supposed new players will be ridiculously abused by vets, and most players in cyrodiil are vets.

It's so ridiculously easy to out heal damage right now and many people are skipping out on traditional damage builds because they're getting 80% of their pen from balorgs and damage from a backbar set like rally. So for them there's no sacrifice to choosing a mundus that magic erases crit damage.

OnGodiDoDis

DrNukenstein wrote: »

When I say more accessible I mean:

What makes pvp a different game is that critical chance by itself is turned into a dud stat once you go from 30% effective crit damage (with base crit resist) to 16% effective crit damage (full impen). It's that 13% crit resist that enforces different itemization in pvp. Currently to follow this unofficial rule, you need gear designed for it. Giving more players a way to get that crucial layer of critical resist outside of specific (and often expensive) gear choices would open the possibility to "exist" in pvp to more players. I wouldn't stack it on top of impen, and it would always cost more damage than impen for ideally 2% less crit resist in full divines, but it would be a way for more players to get what they need to even have a chance at learning pvp.

This wouldn't address poor reward and ladder systems, or out of control balance issues. I think it would open the floor though.

PvP is a different world. Anything that is meant to help new and solo players will always end up benefitting the experienced players and large groups more. Why? Because we have more knowledge about how the game works. We know about block-casting. We know about roll-dodge/bar-swap cancelling. I know that I need to pop a HoT or an immovable before I go in for a kill so I don’t get my combo interrupted. I know that setting an enemy off-balance allows me to combo a heavy-attack stun into an ulti. Why? Because I took my time to learn about the mechanics of the environment I'm in. It's the same things PvE'rs do in trials. They do practice runs. They learn the mechanics of the content. Why not do the same in PvP instead of ruining our gameplay by creating a tank meta every other patch?

KingExecration

Just add crit resit to the tower and the mage, both horrible stat values hardly if ever used.

Tberg725

In its current forum pvp is open to pvers no problem we are in such a state that pvp has become more annoying than fun there’s so many tanks running around that some players we just ignore as a group

We call out on coms hey so and so is a tank bot and move on to the next target I’ve never ran into so many people you can’t kill 1v1 or people you fight for 10 min then just decide to call a draw and move on……this patch is one of the least fun and the LAST thing we need is more damage mitigation

Troodon80

While I do agree that there are two mundus stones which could be made into one, considering the whole hybridisation plan, I also think that there are two important points. More mitigation is absolutely not needed in PvP, in either sense; crit resistance or base resistances. And every other mundus stone grants a bonus which isn't restricted to just PvE or PvP, altough obviously some do get used considerably more in PvP than PvE and vice versa.

Bear in mind, this isn't me arguing against the idea. If they had a spare mundus stone, it would seem more likely to me that it would either be some form of raw mitigation ("decrease all incoming damage by X%" as opposed to "grants X resistances" in a similar way to Reinforced and Nirnhoned on armour) rather than critical resistance which will only apply to PvP since nothing in PvE deals critical damage. Perhaps in the form of the Warrior if they combined weapon and spell damage into the Apprentice. Or something like increased XP and AP gain, perhaps on the Apprentice (XP/AP = "learning") if they combined weapon and spell damage into the Warrior.

Perhaps they would do critical resistances, but I also don't imagine ZOS doing a mundus stone specific to PvE, like boosting your chances of unlocking chests or increasing the gold you earn from quests. So far, they've kept mundus stones game mode agnostic.

aurelius_fx

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Could this be the bridge that opens PVP up to PVE'rs?

the entire set system would have to be redone for that to happen, and even then, you're ignoring the biggest issue: most people just straight up have absolutely no interest in pvp long term. period. doesn't matter if the meta is tanky or squishy. people don't get into mmos for pvp and zos isn't gonna spend any significant resources in figuring out systems for this minuscule portion of people who care

OBJnoob

I mean... Plenty of people get into MMOs for PvP. It doesn't really matter if there is more of x than there is of y: there is plenty of y.

That being said-- the argument that all mundus stones should be mode agnostic is kinda insightful. Moreso I think than just saying we don't need more mitigation. That's a temporary problem, hopefully, and several defensive stones already exist.

The warrior and the apprentice really do NEED to be combined though. And I think crit resist is the only "stat" that doesn't yet have a mundus. So theres that line of logic also.

If it weren't to become a crit resist mundus then it'd be hard to think of what it WOULD be. But since we're talking about it here's an idea. Increase range of all abilities. By like... 2 or something. And with all divines it becomes 3 maybe. That'd be kinda cool I think.

TechMaybeHic

I've always thought that it's odd ZOS has said on a number of occasions that they want going from PvE to PvP to be transparent but then nerfed impen, added crit resist to battle spirit, and added it in to CP. That seems to not indicate what they said at all. That says they just want a baseline and people to build into a stat that is irrelevant in PvE yet very relevant in PvP.

If ZOS really wanted it transparent; they'd remove impen and crit resist altogether from builds and just simply add it all in battle spirit based on what lines up on average player health to monsters and tweak it depending on where TTL falls.

Problem is; right now if someone builds as much crit resist as possible; there are still builds that will hit way harder on crit builds than damage builds, yet TTL would indicate we need less survival at the moment and the devs have been proven to be reluctant to tweak the battlespirit numbers modifications. Only really have done that twice but really over the course of 1 cycle as they went too far the first time. I don't expect them to always play with Battle Spirit, or even near as often as people suggest, but a baseline of what's already there could use at least regular reviews

aurelius_fx

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean... Plenty of people get into MMOs for PvP.

plenty of people? nah, not enough people for them to care, sorry but it's just the cold truth

i'm seeing people say that bgs in NA don't even have enough people playing to reach 100 people in the top 100 leaderboards, if you refuse to see that then i can't convince you, feel free to scream at the void about ideas for pvp, nothing meaningful is going to chance unless something meaningful happens at zos

i say that as someone who only pves for pvp gear, instead of trying to get pvers into pvp it would instead be extremelly appreciated if they just made pvp for pvpers so they stop quitting the game

OBJnoob

If you count all three factions of cyrodiil, in all campaigns, add it to bgs and imperial city at any given time... But let's say primetime because it suits my end... And then assume that 'some' aren't online or are currently grinding for gear in pve but will return to PvP tomorrow... Then include the EU servers...

Yeah. Do me a favor and don't try to convince me. I don't care to hear what you heard somebody say once about an area you seem to have no first hand knowledge of. I know there are more than 100 pvpers. Oh yeah don't forget the other platforms.

Anyway... Nobody is screaming at the void. I'm having a discussion. With people. On a forum. If you're jaded and hopeless and feel like this is all a vacuum... Then, yknow, YOU do YOU.

Caribou77

I think the OPs idea has promising potential, buuuuut, IMO ZOS appears to be introducing new sets with more aggressive crit options, and bringing more viability to crit builds in PVP.

Will this mundus negate the effectiveness of the snazzy new gear? Would it be… Balanced 😂

DrNukenstein

Caribou77 wrote: »

I think the OPs idea has promising potential, buuuuut, IMO ZOS appears to be introducing new sets with more aggressive crit options, and bringing more viability to crit builds in PVP.

Will this mundus negate the effectiveness of the snazzy new gear? Would it be… Balanced 😂

I don't see this ever replacing a set of impen gear. Crit resist has more opportunity cost than any other stat, and if you know you don't go out of your way to stack it beyond impen gear. The exception is Rallying cry back bar, because it can be one of the few back bar sets that also gives front bar damage.

In ideal implementation, a set of full gold divines gear would give at most the same crit resist (probably a smart amount less) while using this stone as a full set of gold impen would give.

dsalter

baselesschart wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Crit has been nerfed across the board.

We're already in a tank meta. The only thing countering this overheating mess is crit damage damage and just because assassin's will hits hard is not enough to give away another source of damage negation.

People don't even really run heavy crit resist, not like they did in the past. Which would explain in part why crits hit so hard. Even with crits hitting hard, its not countering the tank meta. There are still builds that enable you to survive even against a full damage critblade. Healing and damage mitigation need an entire rework imo, and until then, balance is going to be horrible.

shame they removed hard caps on stats, this is why such bull metas exist, the only "tank meta" back in the day was vampire swarm groups and guess what?
Silver bolts could one shot them.
yes a pretty average skill was your solution to ball groups, have 3-5 "vampire hunters" with crossbows spamming silver bolt and watching the ball go up in flames (granted being one shot just for being a vampire was kinda lame but it punished ball groups) but then the caps were removed (and silver was toned down because cant have 1 shots.... oh wait that stuff still happens with caps removed! and they are usually tanky to boot!)
without the stat caps people were achieving damage and tankiness never seen before and ball groups were making use of proxy det to blow up 100's of people at a time (yes cyro had 100 people battles common at one point but then came the lighting update and destroyed performance in a single update) and there was 0 counterplay to this and it went on for over a year before they started adding in "blob breakers", except ball groups were the ones making the most use out of this because caps allow them to.

at this point buff inevitable detonation to be a faster cast OR AoE around the target so that it becomes a true blob buster and remove group forced repositioning abilities/sets... who am i joking its just sets and i can see much of the bullcrap toning down to acceptable levels.
the reason i mention repositioning group sets is that most of the time you are locked out of your controls for 2 seconds which makes any counter play impossible (dark con prime example and yes i use this because you'd be a fool not to) and just gets used by blobs more than its intended "blob breaking"

you kill blobs by having echo abilities that keep cascading till there is no blob, that is the only solution because unless you can out tank the hive mind and have sorc bubble follow you, theres no stopping the blob healing/buff stacks but having a cascading damage ability that keeps cascading harder and harder till blob dies or scatters.
so say thank you to zeni for removing the stat caps that allow blobs to thrive since the only blobs in the past already had a counter play that 1 shot every member at a range