PVdoor

johnicus

4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map....your arguements are invalid...

Holycannoli

4 people yes. 1 or 2 people no.

We need a cap of one (1) siege weapon deployed per player at a time.

moleculardrugs

I think if the number of person per siege is less than 6, then the keep should notify the map sooner than 50% of the door and still allow people to tp there to defend. Say, 60-70% is when the invaders are spotted and then people can tp before the 50% mark

OBJnoob

If by pvdoor you mean capture undefended keeps then even 1 person has every right to take as many castles as they want. What is honestly wrong with that?? If you don't like it stop them. It is NOT that hard to predict enemy movements. Its not that hard to get there in time either.

Is this even the actual complaint? Cuz I'm willing to bet its more like 1 of 2 things.

1) My team is awesome and theirs is trash. Instead of letting us farm them they go somewhere else and try to earn ap. How dare they.

2) Their team is awesome and mine is trash. After we log out they continue to do what they were already doing and when I log back in the whole map is their color. How dare they.

VaranisArano

Were there less than 4 people online in the opposing factions?

I mean, I've captured a keep with about four people, then about 4 other people showed up to defend just as we flipped the flags and it turned into a pretty fun brawl considering we were on Haderus during the daytime (just to date myself a little) and the campaign was pretty empty.

I've even soloed an outpost on the PTS. It took forever and even in the most low-pop PVP environment ever, somebody still showed up to fight before I finished taking the flags.

Tommy_The_Gun

Imho Points that count towards um... "PvP Campaign" final score (who wins or loses), if those points were gained through PvE or PvDoor night/morning cap (pretty much the same thing) - then it should be somehow penalized (tied to population difference maybe ?)

It takes a lot more effort to get points when fighting in a real PvP environment - there actual player defenders will show up and will defend stuff. During night/morning hours, when there is no one to defend - it takes way less effort to capture stuff and the difficulty of the content is way to easy vs the result. The end result is that you get same reward, but you are doing way easier content.

It is a fundamental game design flaw imho, as it kinda makes it "BiS" strategy to win a PvP campaign. Just ignore PvP, and wait till everyone logs off and then do the PvE content to win PvP content....

Imagine if for example vet Trials were easier at certain hour. Progression guilds that want to stay competitive and take top places in PvE scoreboards would only play at that hour. Or better yet - do a PvP content to win in PvE content... Seems kinda broken in its very core.

Amottica

johnicus wrote: »

your arguements are invalid...

No one's opinion is invalid just because it may differ from that of another. By creating a thread in the forums, one is asking for a discussion, which literally means there will be different opinions.

I would start with the comment that "4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map" is extremely vague. The group should be able to take as many locations as they can until people start trying to thwart their efforts. That is life if it happens to be during off hours and there are not many defenders on, then that is life. It is extremely obvious that Cyrodiil is not designed to be competitive and never will be, never should be.

Reverb

I’ve duo’d a keep twice. It took a really long time and lots of siege. If people would rather stack their faction in one place and not bother to defend, that’s on them.

Udrath

At this point keeps should be strictly for housing and if someone is decorating, then it cannot be attacked. And the training dummies come alive and are full on raid bosses when you do attack. 😶

DizzyMac

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Imho Points that count towards um... "PvP Campaign" final score (who wins or loses), if those points were gained through PvE or PvDoor night/morning cap (pretty much the same thing) - then it should be somehow penalized (tied to population difference maybe ?) .

So you are saying that anyone who lives outside of the server areas should be punished for living in a different timezone? The primetime for Aussies who play on the NA server starts at about 4am edt (usa time).

geonsocal

Tommy_The_Gun

DizzyMac wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Imho Points that count towards um... "PvP Campaign" final score (who wins or loses), if those points were gained through PvE or PvDoor night/morning cap (pretty much the same thing) - then it should be somehow penalized (tied to population difference maybe ?) .

So you are saying that anyone who lives outside of the server areas should be punished for living in a different timezone? The primetime for Aussies who play on the NA server starts at about 4am edt (usa time).

If people who live outside certain time zones play this game, then what would happen is you would see 2 bar AD / DC / EP etc. You would have would have less people than during "prime time", but it would be evenly spread population.

Meanwhile what happens during night/morning server time is that you see one faction locked & the others have 1 bar / empty.

I doubt that people from other time zones independently & consciously picked the same faction, over & over every campaign - Especially if they want to PvP with each other.

Amottica

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Imho Points that count towards um... "PvP Campaign" final score (who wins or loses), if those points were gained through PvE or PvDoor night/morning cap (pretty much the same thing) - then it should be somehow penalized (tied to population difference maybe ?) .

So you are saying that anyone who lives outside of the server areas should be punished for living in a different timezone? The primetime for Aussies who play on the NA server starts at about 4am edt (usa time).

If people who live outside certain time zones play this game, then what would happen is you would see 2 bar AD / DC / EP etc. You would have would have less people than during "prime time", but it would be evenly spread population.

Meanwhile what happens during night/morning server time is that you see one faction locked & the others have 1 bar / empty.

I doubt that people from other time zones independently & consciously picked the same faction, over & over every campaign - Especially if they want to PvP with each other.

It would likely be a group of people/friends deciding to go into PvP. It seems rather normal for a group of friends such a guild mates to go into Cyrodiil.

Also, most campaigns are not pop-locked most of the time. That is life and clearly expected since Cyrodiil is not designed to be competitive PvP. It never has been and never will be.

Lebkuchen

I am not sure who the OP is talking to, or even what exactly the OP is talking about...

But i took countless outposts on my own. And i took a lot of keeps with no help. In all different kinds of ways. With my nightblade from the inside, while 9 bar went to the last emp keep on primetime. That has always been very rewarding and exciting and felt really good when it worked. But Cyrodiil is empty most of the time, so i sometimes opened the doors or walls, flipped both flags and repaired everything, all alone. Or i took keeps solo with the hammer because the map was empty. I even took some keeps solo with my healer, using coldfire/fire ballistas/meatbags to kill the NPCs. You do not need 4 players, you can do that solo, if you have a bit of experience.

But, and that is a big BUT: It gets very boring very fast. The first few times it is fun, because you think you are special. But then you realise, it is only possible because nobody cares to defend. Because the game is empty. One single player defending can make it almost impossible for you to take a keep. They can just gank you while you are fighting NPCs. They can repair while you are fighting NPCs, so you can not get back in when you die. They can flip one flag back while you are standing on the other one, and while you are running around in the keep the NPCs respawn, and take both flags back, or the keep just goes off siege after wasting too much time...

So one single player can make it very hard to take a keep solo. But a lot of times there is just noone there to defend.

The problem is not how hard it is to play PvE against NPCs in Cyrodiil. The problem is the lack of players. And that is mostly because of performance issues.

And now you want to take away the last thing PvP players have left when the map is empty? Flipping boring keeps while waiting for enemy players to fight? Why? What do you want people to do while waiting? Stand in front of a keep and do nothing because they can not get in?

I have defended keeps against 10 players on my own, because the NPCs have been too strong for them. New players are overwhelmed when they come to Cyrodiil, and now you want to make it even harder for them? Why? To win a campaign nobody cares about? What do you get when you win a campaign?

Didgerion

johnicus wrote: »

4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map....your arguements are invalid...

I totally disagree.

One or two players should take a keep as easily as 10 players and that my friend will fix Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil's current problem is how the number of players linearly speeds up a keep's capture.

That leads players to form one enormous group that roll the map at maximum speed. There is no need to split up. If they split up they will take the map as fast but risk to get countered instead. Why risk it when they can just roll it with one huge group?

Now imagine 2 players can undo the work of 40 at the same pace. Having huge groups will be extremely non optimal in that case. Players will spread across the map to take and defend keeps.

That will fix everything: gating, zergz, lags, empty maps.

KingExecration

This is slightly off topic but home keeps should have one pin upstairs somehow another. Making it harder to gate factions.

I agree with what others have said tho, small scale or just a few should still be able to cap whatever. I don’t like putting restrictions on anything. Much like I hate ic for making pins flip the same as if 1 guy is on there or 70.

johnicus

OBJnoob wrote: »

If by pvdoor you mean capture undefended keeps then even 1 person has every right to take as many castles as they want. What is honestly wrong with that?? If you don't like it stop them. It is NOT that hard to predict enemy movements. Its not that hard to get there in time either.

Is this even the actual complaint? Cuz I'm willing to bet its more like 1 of 2 things.

1) My team is awesome and theirs is trash. Instead of letting us farm them they go somewhere else and try to earn ap. How dare they.

2) Their team is awesome and mine is trash. After we log out they continue to do what they were already doing and when I log back in the whole map is their color. How dare they.

You could not be more wrong, I didnt say they dont have the right, I said it should not be possible, and "if you dont like it stop them" is fine unless you dont play 24/7 So you lose your bet

johnicus

Reverb wrote: »

I’ve duo’d a keep twice. It took a really long time and lots of siege. If people would rather stack their faction in one place and not bother to defend, that’s on them.

Amottica wrote: »

johnicus wrote: »

your arguements are invalid...

No one's opinion is invalid just because it may differ from that of another. By creating a thread in the forums, one is asking for a discussion, which literally means there will be different opinions.

I would start with the comment that "4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map" is extremely vague. The group should be able to take as many locations as they can until people start trying to thwart their efforts. That is life if it happens to be during off hours and there are not many defenders on, then that is life. It is extremely obvious that Cyrodiil is not designed to be competitive and never will be, never should be.

It's a meme, dont take it so seriously, and reply constructively rather than nit picking

Master_Kas

Didgerion wrote: »

johnicus wrote: »

4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map....your arguements are invalid...

I totally disagree.

One or two players should take a keep as easily as 10 players and that my friend will fix Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil's current problem is how the number of players linearly speeds up a keep's capture.

That leads players to form one enormous group that roll the map at maximum speed. There is no need to split up. If they split up they will take the map as fast but risk to get countered instead. Why risk it when they can just roll it with one huge group?

Now imagine 2 players can undo the work of 40 at the same pace. Having huge groups will be extremely non optimal in that case. Players will spread across the map to take and defend keeps.

That will fix everything: gating, zergz, lags, empty maps.

Cyrodiils problem (besides lag/performance) is player population. The few remanining who play in Cyrodiil are spread across campaigns and servers. If ZOS merged NA and EU there would be way less offhours and more resistance during those off hours. But that's not possible prob. ;( We need UNITY!

Luede

if a few people in cyrodiil want to take a keep, you can already make life extremely difficult for these few by simply working with a few siege weapons. with bad opponents, you can easily prevent the capture on your own, with good opponents you can delay it, and that's perfectly ok.

Holycannoli

Didgerion wrote: »

johnicus wrote: »

4 People should not be able to PVdoor the map....your arguements are invalid...

I totally disagree.

One or two players should take a keep as easily as 10 players and that my friend will fix Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil's current problem is how the number of players linearly speeds up a keep's capture.

That leads players to form one enormous group that roll the map at maximum speed. There is no need to split up. If they split up they will take the map as fast but risk to get countered instead. Why risk it when they can just roll it with one huge group?

Now imagine 2 players can undo the work of 40 at the same pace. Having huge groups will be extremely non optimal in that case. Players will spread across the map to take and defend keeps.

That will fix everything: gating, zergz, lags, empty maps.

and I totally disagree with that. Keeps should not be capturable by one or two players. Resources should but not keeps. It should require a group of players, and if it's defended it should require attacking more than one wall to split the defenders up. That's how it used to be in the very beginning of the game.

The lag large battles causes is an issue but game balance shouldn't be designed around that lag.

The biggest problem is what I've been saying for a long time: Players can place multiple siege weapons and rotate them. It's like a one man army at that point and I've never agreed with it.

Lebkuchen

@Holycannoli

In a better version of the game i would agree with you. But Cyrodiil is broken. Just search for "performance" in this forum and you will find over 10.000 results...

They promised to improve performance for years. This year we got this:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/595442/eso-pvp-update-updated-june-2022/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616021/pc-eu-hardware-update-august-2022/p1

But nobody knows when this will happen. And nobody knows if it will work. Unlike their previous attempts. Just a couple of posts i found:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/323521/cyrodiil-performance-test-and-double-ap-event
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565283/update-on-proc-set-plan-in-cyrodiil/p1

Performance issues get worse with every update. Every day someone opens a new discussion to describe the bad performance:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618651/last-maintenance-broke-the-cyrodiil-performance-again#latest

Cyrodiil was designed for large battles, but people get disconnected when they walk into fights with more than 10-20 players:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617759/large-groups-able-to-force-opponents-off-map-in-cyrodiil-due-to-server-message-rate-limit-maybe/p2

I do not think siege weapons are a problem we need to waste time on talking about. There even is a limit per keep (20 or 30). They are slow and need a lot of space to be placed. And they are expensive. I rarely see 1 player put up more than 2 siege weapons. Most of the time it is 10 players jumping around in oil, waiting for someone to put up a ram. When the server is not empty.

Performance issues made most PvP players leave ESO, so there are not enough warriors left to fight big battles. Until they fix the performance and players come back, i am glad we can at least do something while we are waiting.

The worst thing is that we do not even need large battles to feel the bad performance. Even with just a few players online it is really bad. At least for Playstation EU, and we will be the last ones to get the next "improvements".

Lebkuchen

tldr: If there are just 5 people on the entire map, i have no problem with one or two taking a keep. While the other 3 are running around in the tower of a resource

Holycannoli

Yeah performance is absolutely awful.

But I don't like the idea of making capturing keeps easier so that large fights aren't as necessary either.

I think on a dead server with little population keeps should barely change hands. But that's the thing about opinions: everyone has one.

Oakenaxe

I wouldn't mind if they made it harder to capture keeps. Stronger doors, stronger guards (like some real elite guards around the flags), etc. Should be interesting. The only problem is performance, as it would take more people, fights would take longer, etc.

MEBengalsFan2001

moleculardrugs wrote: »

I think if the number of person per siege is less than 6, then the keep should notify the map sooner than 50% of the door and still allow people to tp there to defend. Say, 60-70% is when the invaders are spotted and then people can tp before the 50% mark

No...it is fine as it is... maybe limit players to 2 siege vs unlimited.

xFocused

Luede wrote: »

if a few people in cyrodiil want to take a keep, you can already make life extremely difficult for these few by simply working with a few siege weapons. with bad opponents, you can easily prevent the capture on your own, with good opponents you can delay it, and that's perfectly ok.

Going to (respectfully) disagree with this point. Siege is way, way too underpowered at the moment in my opinion. When players can just casually walk through cold fire and meat bags without taking hardly any damage, there's a problem. I was lighting up large groups of players the other night while sieging a keep and just.....nothing, lol. No kills and eventually were able to save the keep. This needs to be addressed. Siege is supposed to be your counter to saving keeps but the damage output just isn't there

Luede

xFocused wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

if a few people in cyrodiil want to take a keep, you can already make life extremely difficult for these few by simply working with a few siege weapons. with bad opponents, you can easily prevent the capture on your own, with good opponents you can delay it, and that's perfectly ok.

Going to (respectfully) disagree with this point. Siege is way, way too underpowered at the moment in my opinion. When players can just casually walk through cold fire and meat bags without taking hardly any damage, there's a problem. I was lighting up large groups of players the other night while sieging a keep and just.....nothing, lol. No kills and eventually were able to save the keep. This needs to be addressed. Siege is supposed to be your counter to saving keeps but the damage output just isn't there

here i should mention that i play noncp, that the healing in the cp campaign is completely broken should be clear. but that is not the only balance disaster there.

Holycannoli

xFocused wrote: »

Going to (respectfully) disagree with this point. Siege is way, way too underpowered at the moment in my opinion. When players can just casually walk through cold fire and meat bags without taking hardly any damage, there's a problem. I was lighting up large groups of players the other night while sieging a keep and just.....nothing, lol. No kills and eventually were able to save the keep. This needs to be addressed. Siege is supposed to be your counter to saving keeps but the damage output just isn't there

I agree here. Healing is so out of control that siege damage can be ignored in many cases. You don't need siege shield just heal and shrug it off. I see it all the time. A coordinated ball group simply will not die to siege or anything else because of how out of control healing is.

Lebkuchen

Holycannoli wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Going to (respectfully) disagree with this point. Siege is way, way too underpowered at the moment in my opinion. When players can just casually walk through cold fire and meat bags without taking hardly any damage, there's a problem. I was lighting up large groups of players the other night while sieging a keep and just.....nothing, lol. No kills and eventually were able to save the keep. This needs to be addressed. Siege is supposed to be your counter to saving keeps but the damage output just isn't there

I agree here. Healing is so out of control that siege damage can be ignored in many cases. You don't need siege shield just heal and shrug it off. I see it all the time. A coordinated ball group simply will not die to siege or anything else because of how out of control healing is.

Not really... With good timing and placement, you can kill every ballgroup. Especially when they are infected with plaguebreak. Oil, coldfire, cold stone, lancers and even meatbags can be very strong if you know how to use them. For most ballgroups siege weapons and negates are the biggest threat. What you see "all the time" are solo players that just shoot somewhere to see some damage numbers. But when you get a few people to work together on siege, you can hold off the entire enemy server.

johnicus

Holycannoli wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Going to (respectfully) disagree with this point. Siege is way, way too underpowered at the moment in my opinion. When players can just casually walk through cold fire and meat bags without taking hardly any damage, there's a problem. I was lighting up large groups of players the other night while sieging a keep and just.....nothing, lol. No kills and eventually were able to save the keep. This needs to be addressed. Siege is supposed to be your counter to saving keeps but the damage output just isn't there

I agree here. Healing is so out of control that siege damage can be ignored in many cases. You don't need siege shield just heal and shrug it off. I see it all the time. A coordinated ball group simply will not die to siege or anything else because of how out of control healing is.

Exactly my point, 2022 offense is going up against 2015 defense