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It is infuriating how luck plays a major role during matches
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NeKryXe✭✭✭✭✭
✭CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway.
I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.PCNA0 -
NeKryXe✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.
Yes. I always play with Rajhin. Love it. 0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.
Yes. I always play with Rajhin. Love it.
I've grown to enjoy the Rajhin deck, too but a lot of players hate it. That would explain why so many players keep quitting games on you.PCNA0 -
NeKryXe✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.
Yes. I always play with Rajhin. Love it.
I've grown to enjoy the Rajhin deck, too but a lot of players hate it. That would explain why so many players keep quitting games on you.
Maybe so, but by quitting they can't then argue that "luck plays a major role during matches". 0 -
Lunatearz✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.
Yes. I always play with Rajhin. Love it.
I've grown to enjoy the Rajhin deck, too but a lot of players hate it. That would explain why so many players keep quitting games on you.
Maybe so, but by quitting they can't then argue that "luck plays a major role during matches".
they were responding to you saying they always quit.. this was not related to luck.. nice tryEdited by Lunatearz on 3 October 2022 12:060 -
NeKryXe✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »CaptainVenom wrote: »I mean, seriously ZOS, you need to take a real look at how skills matter little in this card game. It's becoming kinda ridiculous at this point.
This game is brand new and it needs a rework already. Luck should NOT be a dominant factor.
Well... lately I've been winning almost every game, at least 9 in each 10 matches. Mostly because almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck. I'd love to play more matches to the end, but I'm enjoying the easy rewards anyway. I believe that many players blaming everything on the bad luck aren't even trying much.
maybe they quit because you play slow? i dont know... or maybe you play the sorc king.. again i dont know those are reasons a lot of players dont care finish a match.. i do that too at times.
Nope. I don't play slow, I play very fast and I never ever stalled a game. Also, I don't even own the Orgnum deck. So... No excuses left.
Do you play Rajhin lot? I've had a couple of players leave when I chose that deck but most just try to play the deck to their advantage.
Yes. I always play with Rajhin. Love it.
I've grown to enjoy the Rajhin deck, too but a lot of players hate it. That would explain why so many players keep quitting games on you.
Maybe so, but by quitting they can't then argue that "luck plays a major role during matches".
they were responding to you saying they always quit.. this was not related to luck.. nice try
You should check first the context of this thread, and then read again what I wrote: "almost all players quit during the first 3 to 5 rounds. Yes, I really feel lucky, but those players don't even try their luck." We are discussing luck in this thread. 0 -
Heartrage✭✭✭✭✭with a better rng luck is truly luck and if the RANDOM number generation is MORE RANDOM it would actually be more like irl cards. currently its not.
the RNG often seems to be in favor of one party which is the reason often one can buy their cards start of game and the other cant which makes it not so RANDOM
I’m sorry, but this makes no sense. The rng is random, it can’t be more random.
Also, rng favoring a player is to be expected in a random situation. I once had an entire poker evening with only bad hands. It was improbable but, possible because it’s truly random.
If your problem with the game is that it swings too fast and too hard for a player, "more" rng wouldn’t fix the problem. Tot has many powerful cards and cards bought synergize with each other which makes the advantage greater and greater. Making the game slower with less snowball effects would be the way to fix this.0 -
Austacker✭✭✭✭El_Borracho wrote: »Its a game of chance, there will always be some luck involved. Obviously, there are matches where the opponent gets all the good cards at the right time. But there is no way to overcome that if you want a card game. Why would anyone want to play a game where the winner is determined beforehand, either by their level or deck?
You are quite correct, which is why I scoff and laugh at those who say 'nope, it's allllll skill!'
It's not, never was.
Yes there is 'skill' involved in playing the cards that you're dealt and the best players will very often find a way
But for those who can play the 'perfect game' on the cards they're dealt and STILL lose because of bad RNG, I completely understand the frustration.
ToT is a mix of luck and skill at the end of the day.
If you want a game 100% based on skill alone, stop playing ToT and play Chess instead.1 -
CaptainVenom✭✭✭✭✭
✭ToT would have been a lot more fun and less luck-based if we could build and use our own deck to play, as this:
You can mix two decks into your own. When starting a match, pick patrons normally and stuff, then all tavern (buyable) cards are Treasure (neutral) and Contract Cards, meaning you buy it and get its effect instantly, with new cards such as buffing your own cards or debuffing opponent ones, for instance. You would always get the cards you like/are comfortable playing with, albeit randomly from your custom deck the way it works now.
This way, even though there's a luck factor, it would not be dominant anymore, see? We would have a balance between skill and luck, where you create a mix of two decks for you (and you only) and try to deal with opponent's deck while buying neutral contract cards to create an advantage.🏳️🌈 Ride with Pride 🏳️🌈
Stamina/Damage Sorcerer - PC - NA - DC0 -
Heartrage✭✭✭✭✭CaptainVenom wrote: »ToT would have been a lot more fun and less luck-based if we could build and use our own deck to play, as this:
You can mix two decks into your own. When starting a match, pick patrons normally and stuff, then all tavern (buyable) cards are Treasure (neutral) and Contract Cards, meaning you buy it and get its effect instantly, with new cards such as buffing your own cards or debuffing opponent ones, for instance. You would always get the cards you like/are comfortable playing with, albeit randomly from your custom deck the way it works now.
This way, even though there's a luck factor, it would not be dominant anymore, see? We would have a balance between skill and luck, where you create a mix of two decks for you (and you only) and try to deal with opponent's deck while buying neutral contract cards to create an advantage.
Yeah, but instead of being a luck-skill based game, it would become a luck-skill-build game with some builds being better than others or countering other builds better. Playing against someone who happens to use a counter to your deck randomly wouldn’t make the game more skill oriented. The upgrades would also give a clear advantage to the players with them over those without.0 -
Skvysh✭✭✭CaptainVenom wrote: »ToT would have been a lot more fun and less luck-based if we could build and use our own deck to play
"Fun" is very subjective - deck builders as-is are fun to some people. Just because a person hasn't played deck builders before doesn't mean that the traditional style CCGs of constructed decks are "more fun".CaptainVenom wrote: »You can mix two decks into your own. When starting a match, pick patrons normally and stuff, then all tavern (buyable) cards are Treasure (neutral) and Contract Cards, meaning you buy it and get its effect instantly, with new cards such as buffing your own cards or debuffing opponent ones, for instance. You would always get the cards you like/are comfortable playing with, albeit randomly from your custom deck the way it works now.
Then you'd have to re-do everything - the cards, the patrons, the effects. Otherwise, coin-heavy decks would be buying every contract and eventually running out of time (because after several months of numerous complaints, the animations still haven't been sped up for whatever the reason), potentially closing the game in 2-3 turns. Power-heavy decks could also hit 40+ prestige with 2 lucky hands. Luck would be even more of a factor - your opponent opens up with both Currency Exchanges with a few tithes on the board, potentially giving them the game on turn one while all you draw is 2-3 cost cards from your chosen decks. The cards simply weren't made for that kind of game, but work (somewhat) fine in a deck builder format.1 -
CaptainVenom✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would become a luck-skill-build game with some builds being better than others or countering other builds better.
Balancing is on ZOS. They deal with it.Playing against someone who happens to use a counter to your deck randomly wouldn’t make the game more skill oriented. The upgrades would also give a clear advantage to the players with them over those without.
PvP is all about this, and ToT is a PvP card game.
My Legendary Master Perfected Ice Staff in my heavy critical build. Yesterday I melted a dude in Cyrodiil in a matter of 2 seconds without any need for stun. Also yesterday I came across another dude with (I presume) heavy critical resistance and I couldn't inflict any real damage on him.
I will always have an advantage over some players because I managed to finish a diffcult arena, get the weapon that better works for my build concept and upgrade it to Legendary. Someone with simply good critical resistance will always have advantage over me. The same can be said from ToT if we could build our own decks: it's our responsability to deal with counters and it is just to savor the win if we managed to do so."Fun" is very subjective - deck builders as-is are fun to some people. Just because a person hasn't played deck builders before doesn't mean that the traditional style CCGs of constructed decks are "more fun".
Not too frustating works for me, if you prefer.Then you'd have to re-do everything - the cards, the patrons, the effects.
Yes, unfortunately. I know this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but I really wish we could have a less luck-based card game such as Magic, for example.🏳️🌈 Ride with Pride 🏳️🌈
Stamina/Damage Sorcerer - PC - NA - DC0 -
Skvysh✭✭✭CaptainVenom wrote: »Yes, unfortunately. I know this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but I really wish we could have a less luck-based card game such as Magic, for example.
Not every game needs to be a classic CCG/Magic clone. Deck builders, card drafting games, "trick taking", "take that", "I cut, you choose" and other gimmicks are perfectly valid mechanisms beyond the "generic" constructed deck duel games. Some mechanics (and scope of the game) have a much lower "weight" than others, allowing more casual players to enjoy the game without the need of having to memorize hundreds of cards and their synergies and constantly stay up to date to be able to win a game every now and then.
That's the issue with "card games within games" like TESL, Hearthstone, Gwent and etc. - while they look "fun" on paper for a person that is interested in the surrounding lore, you gotta dig really deep if you want to go competitive and even play "casual" games with any hope of winning. Metas are pretty complex there (compared to a fairly simple deck builder) and they change often, with a brainless early-game rush deck that can defeat most inexperienced opponents always being a thing.
A deck builder like ToT, however, is fairly easy to understand (assuming there's a proper tutorial) and it doesn't require you to memorize every card by heart - you can pick up most of the options available in 2-3 games per deck. Both players have access to the same cards, so there's no P2W factor and no nasty surprises like suddenly having opponent play an insanely powerful card that you haven't seen in first 50 games. With that approach, it fits well with ESO's "play what you want" casual approach, allowing people with very little skill to still experience the story.
I remember TESL's expansion stories being somewhat tricky, especially if you didn't have certain cards available. You'd have to play a game or two to understand what the rules are and what cards the opponent has, then build a deck for that particular scenario and only then you could pass through. While fun in itself to some - having to build a new deck every time you want to progress the story might not be the right angle for ESO's overall playerbase.
Ultimately, there are plenty of other card games out there - if you like generic CCGs with constructed decks, there's plenty of established titles. There are also different deck builders if ToT doesn't exactly scratch your itch (or games like Quacks of Quedlinburg if you're into bag builders instead). Not saying that ToT is a good game, but it's a good enough game for ESO specifically.1 -
Heartrage✭✭✭✭✭CaptainVenom wrote: »It would become a luck-skill-build game with some builds being better than others or countering other builds better.
Balancing is on ZOS. They deal with it.Playing against someone who happens to use a counter to your deck randomly wouldn’t make the game more skill oriented. The upgrades would also give a clear advantage to the players with them over those without.
PvP is all about this, and ToT is a PvP card game.
My Legendary Master Perfected Ice Staff in my heavy critical build. Yesterday I melted a dude in Cyrodiil in a matter of 2 seconds without any need for stun. Also yesterday I came across another dude with (I presume) heavy critical resistance and I couldn't inflict any real damage on him.
I will always have an advantage over some players because I managed to finish a diffcult arena, get the weapon that better works for my build concept and upgrade it to Legendary. Someone with simply good critical resistance will always have advantage over me. The same can be said from ToT if we could build our own decks: it's our responsability to deal with counters and it is just to savor the win if we managed to do so."Fun" is very subjective - deck builders as-is are fun to some people. Just because a person hasn't played deck builders before doesn't mean that the traditional style CCGs of constructed decks are "more fun".
Not too frustating works for me, if you prefer.Then you'd have to re-do everything - the cards, the patrons, the effects.
Yes, unfortunately. I know this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but I really wish we could have a less luck-based card game such as Magic, for example.
Pvp doesn’t have to revolve around gearing up to win and matching against the right opponent. Tot doesn’t right now and there are plenty of games that don’t. If that’s the kind of pvp you like, you already have the regular pvp as you said.
You made your suggestion to make the game “more fun and less luck based”. Fun is subjective, It would probably be more or less fun for different people so I really don’t see a point arguing over that.
However, it wouldn’t make the game less luck based. If anything, it would make the game less skill based as players with less skills would be able to overcome their lack of skills with gear and the luck of having the right gear would still also apply.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree that luck is a factor but I also believe that skill in knowing how to play the cards can overcome some not so great hands. But lately I think there is more to it than that.
I have noticed a consistent pattern in how my games go. Anytime I win more than I lose, such as 3 games out of 4, I then fall into a long losing streak. And this goes back and forth a few times with me advancing to 70% of the way through the rank I'm currently in, then falling back down to 30% or below, sometimes even to 0. Then I will get a few wins and it repeats this pattern back and forth until finally when I reach 70% again I start getting 210 and 310 for wins and quickly advance to the next rank.
The same thing also happens once I hit Rubedite. I will be ranked in the 200's then drop to 1000, then back up again, back and forth in a consistent pattern.
I am beginning to think there may be something in the scoring based on I don't really know what. But these patterns have been very consistent in my games and there has been no transparency in how these games are scored, just a lot of speculation.
Does the game become more difficult for a player if they have won a few in a row? Or are we then matched against higher ranked players?
I would really like an explanation of how points are scored and any other factors that may affect our games.Edited by SilverBride on 6 October 2022 00:43PCNA1 -
Lunatearz✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I agree that luck is a factor but I also believe that skill in knowing how to play the cards can overcome some not so great hands. But lately I think there is more to it than that.
I have noticed a consistent pattern in how my games go. Anytime I win more than I lose, such as 3 games out of 4, I then fall into a long losing streak. And this goes back and forth a few times with me advancing to 70% of the way through the rank I'm currently in, then falling back down to 30% or below, sometimes even to 0. Then I will get a few wins and it repeats this pattern back and forth until finally when I reach 70% again I start getting 210 and 310 for wins and quickly advance to the next rank.
The same thing also happens once I hit Rubedite. I will be ranked in the 200's then drop to 1000, then back up again, back and forth in a consistent pattern.
I am beginning to think there may be something in the scoring based on I don't really know what. But these patterns have been very consistent in my games and there has been no transparency in how these games are scored, just a lot of speculation.
Does the game become more difficult for a player if they have won a few in a row? Or are we then matched against higher ranked players?
I would really like an explanation of how points are scored and any other factors that may affect our games.
I side with you there.. i see this pattern as well... I think we deserve to know how the points are earned/given or taken.
it would seem to make sense that you can gain more from a higher-ranked player but would it be fair to them to lose more when there's a pattern as described above?2