Official Discussion Thread for "Loremaster’s Archive—Tamriel’s Dungeons"

ZOS_Kevin

Official Discussion Thread for Article, "Loremaster’s Archive—Tamriel’s Dungeons"

"Dhulef of the Mages Guild answers your questions surrounding the many varied and dangerous dungeons found during Tamriel’s Second Era."

Jazraena

I have been complaining a lot recently, so fair's fair - nicely done!

Copper commenting on the Tharns however...

O.O

Aliyavana

Really appeciate the answers you gave. i especially love the azra one, i feel like that is a hint of potential content if next year's chapter is in hammerfell. love the answer you gave to my race question as well.

thejadefalcon

Some good questions both asked and answered, but still a couple of big issues.

The one question about Clivia Tharn being answered with a "lol, don't know" was a pretty disappointing use of a question. I hope it didn't actually take up one of the allotted questions and was just included as an extra. Yes, I can read between the lines and assume the Covenant had Clivia assassinated, but it felt like an afterthought rather than the more thought out response the other questions received.

The other issue though... the question about the Warden was completely unrelated and should have been saved for a more relevant Q&A. It's an interesting question and it's got an interesting answer. However, the fact it was answered at all though deserves questioning. Should we just ignore the theme for all future Loremaster's Archives? Should we ask whatever question we feel like just because you might find it interesting? There were plenty of questions that got skipped that were equally interesting and were on theme for this Q&A.

Jazraena

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Some good questions both asked and answered, but still a couple of big issues.

The one question about Clivia Tharn being answered with a "lol, don't know" was a pretty disappointing use of a question. I hope it didn't actually take up one of the allotted questions and was just included as an extra.

The other issue though... the question about the Warden was completely unrelated and should have been saved for a more relevant Q&A. It's an interesting question and it's got an interesting answer. However, the fact it was answered at all though deserves questioning. Should we just ignore the theme for all future Loremaster's Archives? Should we ask whatever question we feel like just because you might find it interesting? There were plenty of questions that got skipped that were equally interesting and were on theme for this Q&A.

Covenant CIA just told Dhulef in no uncertain terms to stop asking about Clivia.

That's very different to 'Lol don't know'.

thejadefalcon

Jazraena wrote: »

Covenant CIA just told Dhulef in no uncertain terms to stop asking about Clivia.

That's very different to 'Lol don't know'.

I edited for clarity basically immediately after, looks like you loaded in in the interim, whoops! The answer feels very short and not very thought out compared to the others. If only because why is she telling him this? If it's such a secret that people shouldn't go asking about it... why did she just blow the secret?

VaranisArano

I quite enjoyed Dhulef as a narrator!

Because I'm a science teacher, this line sent me down a rather amusing tangent (that will loop back around to the lore eventually, I promise):

"They want to hear about how I got my scars, how I watched a man swallow an eel whole, or that time I wrestled a tuna the size of a duneripper."

One of the things that always surprised my middle-school students was that Tuna are big fish. We're so used to thinking about Tuna like this:


That it's easy forget that the animal is actually more like this:


The world record Tuna is currently one caught in 1979. It weighed 1,496 and was about 10ft long: https://www.marlinmag.com/bluefin-tuna-record-revisiting-history/

So what about Dhulef's story?

According to The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell and its subsection Denizens of the Alik'r Desert, Compiled by Brother Fabricius, "[the duneripper] is immensely proportioned -- it can reach the length of three horses -- and its armored tail is covered in chitinous scales."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel/Hammerfell

A horse length is approx. 8 ft, making our maximum duneripper length approx. 24 ft. That's over twice the size of our world record Tuna.

Assuming Dhulef's story is not merely a fisherman's tale, then we can guess that Tamrielic Tuna are considerable bigger than Earth Tuna on average.

Alternatively, Dhulef makes a big deal about how we need to consider the narrator when we read the lore, so perhaps it's best we don't take this ex-pirate turned researcher-mage too seriously about what probably is a classic fisherman's story.

Or we just go with "rule of cool" and say "This guy wrestled a world-record tuna."



Original Image:

(Thank you for coming to my TED Talk sudden bout of Tuna Nerdery.)

WhiteCoatSyndrome

VaranisArano wrote: »

According to The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell and its subsection Denizens of the Alik'r Desert, Compiled by Brother Fabricius, "[the duneripper] is immensely proportioned -- it can reach the length of three horses -- and its armored tail is covered in chitinous scales."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel/Hammerfell

A horse length is approx. 8 ft, making our maximum duneripper length approx. 24 ft. That's over twice the size of our world record Tuna.

Assuming Dhulef's story is not merely a fisherman's tale, then we can guess that Tamrielic Tuna are considerable bigger than Earth Tuna on average.

Alternatively, Dhulef makes a big deal about how we need to consider the narrator when we read the lore, so perhaps it's best we don't take this ex-pirate turned researcher-mage too seriously about what probably is a classic fisherman's story.

Or we just go with "rule of cool" and say "This guy wrestled a world-record tuna."

May also have been a smallish Duneripper, if ~24 ft is our ‘max’. Then again, we’ve got giants and mammoths and dragons, so having extra-large tuna in existence doesn’t really seem out there - the big monsters have to eat something besides sailors, after all.

VaranisArano

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

According to The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell and its subsection Denizens of the Alik'r Desert, Compiled by Brother Fabricius, "[the duneripper] is immensely proportioned -- it can reach the length of three horses -- and its armored tail is covered in chitinous scales."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel/Hammerfell

A horse length is approx. 8 ft, making our maximum duneripper length approx. 24 ft. That's over twice the size of our world record Tuna.

Assuming Dhulef's story is not merely a fisherman's tale, then we can guess that Tamrielic Tuna are considerable bigger than Earth Tuna on average.

Alternatively, Dhulef makes a big deal about how we need to consider the narrator when we read the lore, so perhaps it's best we don't take this ex-pirate turned researcher-mage too seriously about what probably is a classic fisherman's story.

Or we just go with "rule of cool" and say "This guy wrestled a world-record tuna."

May also have been a smallish Duneripper, if ~24 ft is our ‘max’. Then again, we’ve got giants and mammoths and dragons, so having extra-large tuna in existence doesn’t really seem out there - the big monsters have to eat something besides sailors, after all.

That was my thinking as well, with Tuna perhaps needing to be larger to better defend themselves against larger marine predators.

Average Earth Bluefin Tuna are about 6.5 ft, so if we apply the same ratio to Dunerippers, we can guess that an average sized one is around 15.5 ft. So still larger than our world-record Tuna, but not quite as absurdly larger.

BlissfulDeluge

Pleasantly surprised by all the good answers provided in this Q&A! I do hope that Michael Zenke will be willing to engage with the lore community more, and that he will host a Q&A about Bretons for the Firesong DLC, to make up for Q2's Q&A for High Isle being viewed as a disappointment.

ESO_Nightingale

wow thanks so much for giving a lore response to my question! i really hope to be able to ask more questions related to the lore of warden going forward!

ESO_Nightingale

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Some good questions both asked and answered, but still a couple of big issues.

The one question about Clivia Tharn being answered with a "lol, don't know" was a pretty disappointing use of a question. I hope it didn't actually take up one of the allotted questions and was just included as an extra. Yes, I can read between the lines and assume the Covenant had Clivia assassinated, but it felt like an afterthought rather than the more thought out response the other questions received.

The other issue though... the question about the Warden was completely unrelated and should have been saved for a more relevant Q&A. It's an interesting question and it's got an interesting answer. However, the fact it was answered at all though deserves questioning. Should we just ignore the theme for all future Loremaster's Archives? Should we ask whatever question we feel like just because you might find it interesting? There were plenty of questions that got skipped that were equally interesting and were on theme for this Q&A.

was it completely unrelated? it was related to the connections between druids and wardens. and druids have a dungeon dedicated to them this expansion.

thejadefalcon

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

was it completely unrelated? it was related to the connections between druids and wardens. and druids have a dungeon dedicated to them this expansion.

While it may have been in good faith (and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the question), the way the question was ultimately phrased was more focused on the Warden side of things than either the druids or the dungeon itself (and the dungeon was a very tenuous link as there's druids all over the Systres, it didn't focus on the factions or events of the dungeon but on druids as a concept). It ended up phrased in a way that lead down the path of "what's the Warden all about?" (i.e. asking about the mysteries of your own order) more than leading towards the druids.

ESO_Nightingale

thejadefalcon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

was it completely unrelated? it was related to the connections between druids and wardens. and druids have a dungeon dedicated to them this expansion.

While it may have been in good faith (and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the question), the way the question was ultimately phrased was more focused on the Warden side of things than either the druids or the dungeon itself (and the dungeon was a very tenuous link as there's druids all over the Systres, it didn't focus on the factions or events of the dungeon but on druids as a concept). It ended up phrased in a way that lead down the path of "what's the Warden all about?" (i.e. asking about the mysteries of your own order) more than leading towards the druids.

i think it was on-point enough to be a fair enough question for the qna.

CoolBlast3

Ok ZOS, and loremaster Zenke! I have to say, you all have outdone yourselves this time!
And i'm not just saying this because my question got picked! Honestly, all these questions and answers were lovely, and given such a vast theme you picked interesting ones (thank you to everyone who asked these great questions too).
I think after the last archive, this one is an amazing way to make up for it so to speak. It's one of the best loremaster archives so far ngl!
So yeah, well done guys! Hoping to see these more frequently, would be lovely at least 2 per year or so!

ALSO... I always thought Martyr's Crossing was eventually going to become Azra's Crossing, so having that disproven is interesting. Could we be getting some Azra Crossing content in a Hammerfell chapter perhaps? >:D

Jazraena

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Covenant CIA just told Dhulef in no uncertain terms to stop asking about Clivia.

That's very different to 'Lol don't know'.

I edited for clarity basically immediately after, looks like you loaded in in the interim, whoops! The answer feels very short and not very thought out compared to the others. If only because why is she telling him this? If it's such a secret that people shouldn't go asking about it... why did she just blow the secret?

She didn't, Dhulef did. Playing it a bit loose for our benefit there I guess, but by her words, she obviously knows him.

AKA your acquintance at the CIA telling you to drop it. Fair warning for old times' sake. This time.

Aliyavana

thejadefalcon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

was it completely unrelated? it was related to the connections between druids and wardens. and druids have a dungeon dedicated to them this expansion.

While it may have been in good faith (and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the question), the way the question was ultimately phrased was more focused on the Warden side of things than either the druids or the dungeon itself (and the dungeon was a very tenuous link as there's druids all over the Systres, it didn't focus on the factions or events of the dungeon but on druids as a concept). It ended up phrased in a way that lead down the path of "what's the Warden all about?" (i.e. asking about the mysteries of your own order) more than leading towards the druids.

I think it fits with Earthen Root Enclave being a druidic dungeon. I do agree that the question itself coulda been phrased a bit better like including an rp of how visting the enclave brought up the question. Happy with the answer regardless.

ESO_Nightingale

Aliyavana wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

was it completely unrelated? it was related to the connections between druids and wardens. and druids have a dungeon dedicated to them this expansion.

While it may have been in good faith (and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the question), the way the question was ultimately phrased was more focused on the Warden side of things than either the druids or the dungeon itself (and the dungeon was a very tenuous link as there's druids all over the Systres, it didn't focus on the factions or events of the dungeon but on druids as a concept). It ended up phrased in a way that lead down the path of "what's the Warden all about?" (i.e. asking about the mysteries of your own order) more than leading towards the druids.

I think it fits with Earthen Root Enclave being a druidic dungeon. I do agree that the question itself coulda been phrased a bit better like including an rp of how visting the enclave brought up the question

sure, that could have been implied. i guess in future questions i ask that may relate to wardens, i can include more context for the relevance. but i thought what i had was enough and it was answered so, that's my line of thought.

Raltin

I feel I must address the errors made in Dhulef's response to Khayrat's questions about daedric corruption.

These errors are likely intentional however, as he himself says in one answer that 'teachings provided in books are as flawed as the men who write them', thus supporting invalidation of his own answers and opening him up to criticism... but this statement in of itself is good and valid. Dhulef looks at the situation from the average unlearned mortal's perception.. The viewpoint that daedra are inherently immutable and never change is a misconception and a mortal error that is sadly all too commonplace.

Daedra are of the blood of Padomay, change, chaos made manifest. Daedra can change, we have many examples of this in lore where daedra have been changed and converted by various powers from various princes, so on and so forth. HOWEVER, they resist change as much as they can... but why? Think of it like this... if you are immortal, and you cannot die, and when your body is destroyed you are reborn regardless... what IS death to such a creature? CHANGE... change is death to the immortal daedra. When everything you are; your mind, body, and spirit is subjected to change, when you become something you AREN'T, something different from what you were before... different thoughts, different values, different goals... the old you has ceased to exist. You are DEAD... and what you have become replaces what you once were before.

To daedra, that is the death they fear. If there is ONE thing Molag Bal would ever fear... it would be the idea of being forcefully changed into something like Meridia, a creature whose values he detests with every fiber of his being. The difference between mortals and daedra is not that they don't change... it is the permanence of their spirits, their immortality and padomaic essence. The very fact that they ARE change made manifest, but contradict their very existence by staving off and refusing change as long as possible to preserve their sense of self. Mortals on the other hand have less difficulty embracing change in gradual increments because they a mortal; they are fated to die eventually, and thus changing one's self for different life experiences is nothing to them in their short-lived perceptions. A daedra on the other hand, whose very identity is tied to their sense of self... a renowned warrior daedra used to dominating arena tournaments would have much more difficulty and reservation about settling down and changing their way of life to become a farmer instead of a fighter.

Now, Dhulef is not entirely incorrect in his assessments of inner and outer corruptions... but in the case of the knights of the rose? We have examples in lore of mortals rising to daedric status, one such example is the hero of kvatch who eventually mantled sheogorath. That in turn ties into my previous comments on change... 'once the old you has ceased to exist, that person is dead... replaced by what you have become'. In the case of the silver rose knights... the corruption they were subjected to went to their very cores... down deep into their spirits and changing the very essence of what they were. On a related tangent, mortal souls and daedric vestiges (daedra's version of a soul) are made from the exact same base energy: anima, a full tank of anima resulting in an animus, which depending on whether the anima is anuic or padomaic results in either an aedric/mortal soul or a daedric vestige. This attunement can be changed, like switching from a positive to a negative charge, and vice versa, since aedric souls and daedric vestiges are just the same energy, just different sides of the same coin. Flip the coin and you flip the nature of the being. Trinimac's corruption from aedric god to the daedric prince Malacath being a prime example.

When those knights transformed into clannfear, ogrim, watchers and twilights, I would say that was the point of no return for them... their souls and animus were consumed, reforged, and converted into something else. There was nothing left of those knights that changed, for they were replaced by the daedra they became, utterly. These changes were even more complete than lycanthropy or Vampirism, which sees daedric power piggyback on your soul like a backpack, but does not wholly replace who and what you are, the old you still remains in some capacity... What happened to those knights? Vastly more complete, and horrible, than vampirism or lycanthropy... as Lyranth said: "Oblivion has tainted them to the core"...

Aliyavana

Another thing i would like to complement is Dhulef's characterization. I can tell the loremaster really had fun with doing the archive from his POV. Makes me excited to see more of Dhulef in Q4.

ESO_Nightingale

Aliyavana wrote: »

Another thing i would like to complement is Dhulef's characterization. I can tell the loremaster really had fun with doing the archive from his POV. Makes me excited to see more of Dhulef in Q4.

agreed, through dhulef i could tell their excitement in exploring the lore, and definitely around my question, they seemed keen to look more at wardens who are starved for lore.

ArchMikem

The Dwemer always have a motive behind their constructions that doesn't boil down to just for the lols, so they built that Weather Manipulation Machine for a reason, and even after all these centuries without maintenance it's still operational.

You can even see the actual Core, a sphere with a metallic shine. Those four large fan blades are either using ocean currents to generate power, or are simply pulling ocean water thru as cooling.

I enjoyed the setting of the Dungeon immensely and it's only made me want to learn more of the Dwemer.