What a sad end for PvP in ESO

The7thLettter

xFocused wrote: »

I never understood taking the entire map and then just sitting there with a full bar or 3 bars while the other 2 alliances have 0. You own the map, scrolls and emp...doesn't it get boring sweating that hard having no one to fight?

Removing alliance lock would benefit this exact scenario.

ATomiX69

rbfrgsp wrote: »

You cannot attribute the entire population evaporating over the last 18 months to one single change, when so many changes have been introduced on basically a patch-by-patch basis.

Yes you can, most of my friends who were active pvpers slowly faded away from ESO after faction lock came in since it was hard to get any action on somewhat alive campaigns.
And new people that come into the game see no point in pvping since there are no rewards and flashy cosmetics from it.
But yeah it also doesnt help, that the game definitly didnt get better over the years with the introduction of mythics and new powercreep sets.

rbfrgsp

ATomiX69 wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

You cannot attribute the entire population evaporating over the last 18 months to one single change, when so many changes have been introduced on basically a patch-by-patch basis.

Yes you can, most of my friends who were active pvpers slowly faded away from ESO after faction lock came in since it was hard to get any action on somewhat alive campaigns.
And new people that come into the game see no point in pvping since there are no rewards and flashy cosmetics from it.
But yeah it also doesnt help, that the game definitly didnt get better over the years with the introduction of mythics and new powercreep sets.

This is anecdotal data, not hard data. You attribute greater significance to what has happened to you than what's happened to someone else.

Of my guilds, the largest one to close was a casual/trader guild and that closed with AwA. Two cyro guilds have come and gone since the Year Of Testing™, primarily because of one single set: Dark Convergence.

This last week, PvP has been emptied further and that's down to U35.

Faction lock came alongside the year of testing, the dot meta, the harbingers meta, and smaller group sizes. So you can't say everyone who vanished then went for faction lock. You can only say that some people who you talked to went for that one reason.

And spoiler: reversing that decision won't bring them back.

soniku4ikblis

Have fun.

You have two choices: Stam Warden Hybrid and Stam DK.

The map is full of them. Enjoy.

Thankfully, Wrath of the Lich King Classic pre-patch is out soon. That's something to look forward too.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

THE 4 BANNER WAR HAS BEEN WON BY THE LAG FACTION.
TIME TO LAY DOWN YOUR WEAPONS.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Yes, a lot of unmotivated people in zone chat on PC EU Grayhost EP.

The game was already laggy, crashing, skills not firing with ball groups around. Now we have reverted back to a brawling meta which seems X10 easier than it was before (probably due to all the additions in the form of sets/mythicals).

The population disparities are out of control too, yes.

Wardens are everywhere, some groups are entirely comprised of them. I also noticed that console had free to play recently, is this to get new console players purchasing the game? (Vvardenfell with base game) One wonders.....

Once again, where is the professional PvP crew from ZOS? I'm afraid I'm not feeling it on my end.

Because at this point I think many of us are judging their capabilities or questioning: 'Are they still amongst you?'
(honest concern and well founded)

Lebkuchen

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo wrote: »

[...] Once again, where is the professional PvP crew from ZOS? I'm afraid I'm not feeling it on my end. [...]

You are not feeling it because there is no "PvP crew". Nobody wants to tell us, but it looks like there is no way to fix the performance issues, so they decided to drop PvP years ago. PvP has been fading away for a long time and will probably disappear soon. Please correct me if i am wrong.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Not complaining cause I play my class to the best of my ability too, but good lord there is a lot of dks and wardens. Those towers are packed full every day with the usual 5 man ward/dk groups. You log in, see the only pvp on the map is either a big laggy zerg/ball group or chasing tower bois and you log off. Its just a very anti fun meta and I have to imagine I am not the only one who sees this and just logs off. Its not worth the head ache.

martinhpb16_ESO

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Not complaining cause I play my class to the best of my ability too, but good lord there is a lot of dks and wardens. Those towers are packed full every day with the usual 5 man ward/dk groups. You log in, see the only pvp on the map is either a big laggy zerg/ball group or chasing tower bois and you log off. Its just a very anti fun meta and I have to imagine I am not the only one who sees this and just logs off. Its not worth the head ache.

Haven't logged on for weeks now, it's a 2 class, p2w, vanilla meta, lacking in spontaneity and variety unless you want to jump on the bandwagon, which I don't .

boi_anachronism_

Yeah I had just started really PVP'ing in 34. It was actually decent besides the obvious overuse of oakensoul and dark convergence. Now cyro had just gotten even worse. There is just no point. I do not have a tanky build so my options are basically:

• Make one
• Be crushed
• don't play in cyro

Not great...

Kaysha

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Yeah I had just started really PVP'ing in 34. It was actually decent besides the obvious overuse of oakensoul and dark convergence. Now cyro had just gotten even worse. There is just no point. I do not have a tanky build so my options are basically:

• Make one
• Be crushed
• don't play in cyro

Not great...

or just don´t care if you get crushed. It´s PvP. Players should die in PvP.

It would be interesting to see what happens if we had PvE like damage, no heals, no stealth and no streak, no procs, no cp.

boi_anachronism_

Kaysha wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Yeah I had just started really PVP'ing in 34. It was actually decent besides the obvious overuse of oakensoul and dark convergence. Now cyro had just gotten even worse. There is just no point. I do not have a tanky build so my options are basically:

• Make one
• Be crushed
• don't play in cyro

Not great...

or just don´t care if you get crushed. It´s PvP. Players should die in PvP.

It would be interesting to see what happens if we had PvE like damage, no heals, no stealth and no streak, no procs, no cp.

I have no problem taking a couple deaths in pvp, that's fine and expected. That should be pretty obvious to anyone that has done it EVER. That's not the issue. Being killed 30x in a row meanwhile you can't score a single one because your build isn't tanky enough and there is no room for variation in play styles or different builds is the issue. I did fine the last few patches, of course I had deaths, I wasn't top tier pvp but I am decent and I could hold my own and it was playable and fun.

auz

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Yeah I had just started really PVP'ing in 34. It was actually decent besides the obvious overuse of oakensoul and dark convergence. Now cyro had just gotten even worse. There is just no point. I do not have a tanky build so my options are basically:

• Make one
• Be crushed
• don't play in cyro

Not great...

What? This is crazy! Just build full damage then, if you have built decent the tankiness and heals are almost passive.

auz

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Yeah I had just started really PVP'ing in 34. It was actually decent besides the obvious overuse of oakensoul and dark convergence. Now cyro had just gotten even worse. There is just no point. I do not have a tanky build so my options are basically:

• Make one
• Be crushed
• don't play in cyro

Not great...

or just don´t care if you get crushed. It´s PvP. Players should die in PvP.

It would be interesting to see what happens if we had PvE like damage, no heals, no stealth and no streak, no procs, no cp.

I have no problem taking a couple deaths in pvp, that's fine and expected. That should be pretty obvious to anyone that has done it EVER. That's not the issue. Being killed 30x in a row meanwhile you can't score a single one because your build isn't tanky enough and there is no room for variation in play styles or different builds is the issue. I did fine the last few patches, of course I had deaths, I wasn't top tier pvp but I am decent and I could hold my own and it was playable and fun.

There are so many strong builds that are viable atm. I really don't think, if you are dying that much, that it is because you didn't build tanky enough.

MEBengalsFan2001

Problem with PVP is that the role you selected upon entering the PVP zone has ZERO impact to your stats. In other games roles impact your health, resources, recovery of resources, damage, etc...

Add to this frustration is that players can run high resistance, damage and healing all because well it is allowed.

Imagine having hard caps on resistance stats based upon your role. Healer/Damage dealers having a hard cap of say 25K would go a long way towards killing a player.

Damage dealers not only having high resistance but also high healing. This also needs to be fixed by not allowing healing to be driven by offensive stats of damage but should be driven by just resource pool. Which would encourage healers to focus on max magic / stamina vs. health, stamina, magika resistnace, etc...

Role specific buffs, debuffs and caps s in PVP zones would go a long way towards improving PVP.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Problem with PVP is that the role you selected upon entering the PVP zone has ZERO impact to your stats. In other games roles impact your health, resources, recovery of resources, damage, etc...

Add to this frustration is that players can run high resistance, damage and healing all because well it is allowed.

Imagine having hard caps on resistance stats based upon your role. Healer/Damage dealers having a hard cap of say 25K would go a long way towards killing a player.

Damage dealers not only having high resistance but also high healing. This also needs to be fixed by not allowing healing to be driven by offensive stats of damage but should be driven by just resource pool. Which would encourage healers to focus on max magic / stamina vs. health, stamina, magika resistnace, etc...

Role specific buffs, debuffs and caps s in PVP zones would go a long way towards improving PVP.

Yeah either that or just have battle spirit be affected by the role you pick. The healing being tied to damage thing I think is the most critical point. Not so sure if having it be boosted by resource pools would really work though. I am skeptical because resources do provide damage and if you go crazy on one resource its not that bad for damage. For a long time that was the mag sorc build of choice to go max magicka for instance and they hit plenty hard that way.

Personally I think it should just be "x% healing done" stat that already exists on some sets. That way you have to commit fully to healing if want those big 0% to 100% heals. Getting tired of everyone having lay on hands from wow with a 1 second cooldown.

Adernath

The long lasting (and never seriously adressed) lag issues and the grossly imbalance towards tanks and passive healing is causing a steady decay of players. Both facts are already present since years.

In the late evening, as soon as the ball groups and big zergs are gone (and the lag with it), the most interesting smaller-scale fights happen. Otherwise... who cares who wins the campaign?

Urzigurumash

Can this Forum settle on a simplistic definition of what The Tank Meta is?

Having an HP Pool higher than Stam or Mag? That seems like a good one, but I feel like that wasn't exactly a universal meta until 2020. Is there a better definition?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Can this Forum settle on a simplistic definition of what The Tank Meta is?

Having an HP Pool higher than Stam or Mag? That seems like a good one, but I feel like that wasn't exactly a universal meta until 2020. Is there a better definition?

Its complicated and it differs from patch to patch. This patch though I think it could be accurately described as a stalemate meta and that sorta defines itself.

Just in general though its when healing + defense > damage or when you can have healing + defense without losing much damage. Building for damage is less viable(outside of gankers) and therefore building tanky becomes the meta.

We are in a meta where healing + defense >>>>>>>>>> damage and that is how it becomes a stalemate. No one is willing to drop defense for offense because it will A make you killable by solo players and B won't be enough to allow you to kill the people who don't. Its why we get posts of people saying they can't kill anyone and yet get 1 shotted themselves. They shouldn't have built for damage, simple as.

Urzigurumash

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

when you can have healing + defense without losing much damage.

That seems like a pretty good definition, but should Sustain and Mobility be considered too or no? I.e., could it be balanced to have high Healing, Damage, and Defense, but with bad Sustain and bad Mobility?

Not to veer too far off the idea of setting a definition for The Tank Meta, but this Forum correctly identified the HoT on Forward Momentum as something that was specifically overpowering Heavy Armor builds years ago (not even counting its interaction with Troll King back when there were few Monster Sets).

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That seems like a pretty good definition, but should Sustain and Mobility be considered too or no? I.e., could it be balanced to have high Healing, Damage, and Defense, but with bad Sustain and bad Mobility?

They for sure contribute to the problem. If a solution could be worked out and people actually had to sacrifice mobility and sustain to have high dam/def/heal it could work. If you couldn't sustain those big heals or outrun/los all the damage I could see that being more balanced.

I think the problem is using terrain to avoid damage is not even something you can nerf. Even with no movement speed enchants you can still do pretty solid with just sprint+expedition. Then you have sustain being vital to pve, so that makes addressing it in pvp quite hard. Its not like everyone has too much sustain in pvp, so attaching a reduction to battlespirit would not exclusively hit the intended targets. Very tricky issues. Probably why most of the time the majority of the blame gets put on heals getting increased by the same stat as damage. So basically GL removing sustain and mobility from these monsters without affecting everyone else as well.

Urzigurumash

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That seems like a pretty good definition, but should Sustain and Mobility be considered too or no? I.e., could it be balanced to have high Healing, Damage, and Defense, but with bad Sustain and bad Mobility?

They for sure contribute to the problem. If a solution could be worked out and people actually had to sacrifice mobility and sustain to have high dam/def/heal it could work. If you couldn't sustain those big heals or outrun/los all the damage I could see that being more balanced.

I think the problem is using terrain to avoid damage is not even something you can nerf. Even with no movement speed enchants you can still do pretty solid with just sprint+expedition. Then you have sustain being vital to pve, so that makes addressing it in pvp quite hard. Its not like everyone has too much sustain in pvp, so attaching a reduction to battlespirit would not exclusively hit the intended targets. Very tricky issues. Probably why most of the time the majority of the blame gets put on heals getting increased by the same stat as damage. So basically GL removing sustain and mobility from these monsters without affecting everyone else as well.

Yes it's not easy to think of a practical solution to the easy availability of Mobility and Sustain that doesn't cause new problems - or simply cause PvP to become less enjoyable, even if it broadens the spectrum of viable builds.

We could discuss changes over the years regarding snare removals and speed boosts and their costs (old Rapids was much, much stronger than Race but it cost 8k Stam, Netch once didn't exist, etc.) and CC immunity durations (nobody liked being constantly CC'd all the time, on the other hand many have a fond memory of spamming Talons on Wall Breaches and it making a difference), but,

Does anybody else have another definition of The Tank Meta besides an imbalance from a "trichotomous" view of Defense vs Healing vs Damage?