Stamina Sorcerer's survivability in PVP needs a buff

StaticWave

Hello, I'm a 4 year stamsorc main on PC NA. I've played just about every build possible on the class, including meta ones in the past and in the present. I'm going to throw this out first -stamsorc's damage is competitive. The buffs over the years and the recent hybridization allowed stamsorc to compete with other classes. However, its healing is still lackluster. Let's look at what stamsorc's survival kit has to offer and why I think these options just don't work anymore, or aren't good enough compared to other classes:

1) Streak - unblockable AoE stun, 15m range, requires no target, can be used to escape or gap close.
2) Dark Deal - 8k base tooltip with no basic stat scaling options, restores a decent amount of stamina upfront and a slightly smaller amount overtime, 1s interruptible cast time.
3) Crit Surge - gives major sorcery, heals for ~3.3k base tooltip with no basic stat scaling options, requires crit damage to proc.
4) Matriarch - periodically deals damage but requires 2 slots and can be killed, 1.5s cast time to resummon, also has the base tooltip comparable to other classes' burst heal and offensive
scales with offensive stats
5) Clan Fear - periodically deals damage but requires 2 slots and can be killed, 1.5s cast time to resummon, has higher base tooltip compared to other classses' burst heal and strictly
scales with max health
6) Hardened Ward - gives a shield over your HP and strictly scales with max magicka.
7) Blood Magic passive - procs every 0.5s whenever an enemy is hit with a directly applied dark magic ability, strictly scales with max health.
8) Bound Aegis - Gives armor only on the slotted bar, when activated gives minor protection and several seconds of 40% block mitigation.

Streak sounds pretty decent on paper, but in a real fight there 2 issues. First, it doesn't move with the terrain, which means when you use Streak while going up a slope, the distance is drastically reduced depending on how steep the slope is. If it's a small slope, then you will only move forward 10-11m. However if it's a steep slope like the one between Nikel Outpost and Roebeck Keep, then you can expect to only move forward 4-5m. When you are going downhill, Streak will not displace you along the terrain either. Instead, it will just move you forward into the air 15m, and then gravity takes over and you take fall damage. Second, it is also not a very good escape tool. Sure it lets you create distance, but it also has a ramping cost. Gap closers don't, and they have a 22.5m range. In most cases, you will run out of resources before they run out of theirs. Not only that, but a speedy build can also catch up to a streaking sorc by simply running. Movement speed is easily accessible via Swift, medium armor passives, CP, Mundus, and sets, which means every class already has the tool to deal with a streaking sorc.

Dark Deal is an amazing sustain skill, arguably the best. However, its healing is average at best. There's no basic scaling option, so the only way you can increase the base value is by investing in healing done/healing received/crit healing modifiers. Moreover, it's a channel, which means you can't block cast and can be interrupted while casting. I understand that the heal is a secondary effect, but a stamsorc that isn't using Rally or a resto staff will rely on Dark Deal as its main burst heal. Compared to other classes, Dark Deal's burst heal just lacks.

Crit Surge is an amazing heal over time when you stack a lot of crit chance or many sources of damage. That's on paper though. In reality, you are sacrificing a lot of stats and bar space just to make one ability work. This is due to the fact that stamsorc does not have the same stat boosting passives like a nightblade or necro. If you were to invest into crit chance, you would most likely be giving up on penetration or weapon damage, both of which are more valuable in PvP than crit chance. A Nightblade and Necro have that by simply slotting their class abilities. If you were to invest into stacking many sources of damage, then you would be giving up several bar slots for DoTs that could have been used for an extra burst ability. Compared to Siphoning or Green Lotus which require you to only light attack for a heal, Crit Surge requires too much investment.

Matriarch and Clan Fear are sorc's burst heals. They don't sound great on paper, and they definitely don't work in practice. You have to sacrifice 2 slots for them, and they can also be killed. A burst heal that can be removed by an enemy player isn't a reliable burst heal.

Hardened Ward is a decent survival tool in a 1v1 for a build that specs into magicka, but that's about it. Since it only scales with max magicka, stamsorc doesn't benefit. It also gets removed way too easily due to the current high damage meta, making it unreliable as a source of defense. You often have to use 2 shields just to survive. For comparison, Coagulating Blood or Resistant Flesh can crit heal for 19k, which is nearly the same healing power as 2 shields combined.

Blood Magic passive is a decent heal, but what baffles me is why it scales with max HP. I mean, why? The only times this passive procs enough to be considered a reliable heal is when you are using Crystal Weapon. Only DPS builds run Crystal Weapon. You don't see a PvP tank running it to proc the heal. If you were to invest into max HP to scale its healing, then you are most definitely losing damage. Compared to other classes' heals that scale with offensive stats, this sounds absurd to me.

Bound Aegis was probably designed for PvE tanks, so I get why it works like that. I've tried it in several builds, and honestly it's pretty decent on a SnB block build. Combined with enough healing, you can recover from most situations by just holding block. However, I would at least hope for it to last longer than the current 5s duration on PTS.

I think Crit Surge, Matriarch, Clan Fear, Hardened Ward, and Blood Magic passive need a potential rework. Crit Surge needs to have its crit damage condition removed for more reliability, but also having its tooltip reduced for balance. Matriarch and Clan Fear need to be untargetable and only require 1 bar slot. In fact, just rework them to be similar to Necromancer's Spirit Guardian and Skeletal Mage. They're both summons that don't require 2 bar slots, but one heals and one deals damage. Make them reliable please. Hardened Ward needs to scale with OFFENSIVE stats instead of just max magicka. That way, stamsorcs can have a reliable defense ability to compete. Last but not least, Blood Magic needs to scale with OFFENSIVE stats, not max HP.

These are just suggestions, but I think just changing one of them would drastically improve a stamsorc's survivability. It's time we get some love!

PhoenixGrey

Survivability for sorcerer has been garbage for a while now

It was a one trick pony with crystal weapon where the proc sets made the skill op but then ZOS nerfed the skill instead.

However zos have no problem buffing stamblade for 8 straight patches so everyone can play that instead.

xDeusEJRx

I think they need to rebuff ball of lightning (not make it OP again, maybe make it absorb 3 projectiles per second to make it balanced. 1 per sec just doesn't do anything when there's always 1 person chain spamming so they constantly take the ball's absorption), and add critical into the class toolkit so sorcerers can reliably proc crit surge more often.

Crit surge is not a bad ability but the lack of critical options in the class makes it not synergize well with the class. I mean we have more damaging/sustain passives in the class than crit, I would love if they introduced a passive crit increase either to a skill or an ability. Even if the heal of crit surge is weak, proc'ing it often would make it viable.

WeylandLabs

Agreed * With the nerf of crit a few patches ago crit surge hasn't been on par with survivability.

If they nerfed crit by x % crit surge should have been buffed by x % same with dark deal if damage is going up so should resources and healing.

An audit would fix this entire thing but I'm just here to support the only class I play in ESO for 8 years.

OBJnoob

I think it would help a lot if they made all pets untargetable and also unkillable. I’ve had a lot of luck on my stamsorc when using the matriarch… and before hybridization I ever dabbled with the clan fear a bit… and this is in no proc cyrodiil so definitely not being carried by sets. The problem is any time someone decides to take the time to kill your pet you’re just utterly helpless.

Which is an interesting mechanic and I don’t hate it, but I did hate petsorcs back in the day hiding in their zoo, and killing two birds with one stone is always a good idea.

Killing the pet is smart and good counterplay, but if sorc needs a buff then why not consider it? There’s nothing I can do to stop someone from spamming blessing of restoration over and over again… so why should the matriarch heal be so easily stopped?

Firstmep

I think it depends.
In bgs where there are lots of Los options, streak is extremely powerful for escaping, where as in open field, like you said, gapclosers.
I play a fair amount of stam sorc, although it is not my main, and I like the in and out hit hard get out sort of playstyle.
Its definitely not a spec I would take into a dk/necro/warden/templar moshpit of of neverending pressure for sure.

I think shields kinda need some kind of a rework, I think its laughable that there are sets out there that are just straight up better than actual shield skills.

StaticWave

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think they need to rebuff ball of lightning (not make it OP again, maybe make it absorb 3 projectiles per second to make it balanced. 1 per sec just doesn't do anything when there's always 1 person chain spamming so they constantly take the ball's absorption), and add critical into the class toolkit so sorcerers can reliably proc crit surge more often.

Crit surge is not a bad ability but the lack of critical options in the class makes it not synergize well with the class. I mean we have more damaging/sustain passives in the class than crit, I would love if they introduced a passive crit increase either to a skill or an ability. Even if the heal of crit surge is weak, proc'ing it often would make it viable.

Yea, NB gets that by just slotting their skills, and they don't sacrifice anything either because their passives also give free penetration. Necro has passives that increase their crit chance for healing and damage when someone gets low. It makes me wonder why sorc's class skills are so stat hungry yet the passives don't actually provide anything to help with building for those stats.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it would help a lot if they made all pets untargetable and also unkillable. I’ve had a lot of luck on my stamsorc when using the matriarch… and before hybridization I ever dabbled with the clan fear a bit… and this is in no proc cyrodiil so definitely not being carried by sets. The problem is any time someone decides to take the time to kill your pet you’re just utterly helpless.

Which is an interesting mechanic and I don’t hate it, but I did hate petsorcs back in the day hiding in their zoo, and killing two birds with one stone is always a good idea.

Killing the pet is smart and good counterplay, but if sorc needs a buff then why not consider it? There’s nothing I can do to stop someone from spamming blessing of restoration over and over again… so why should the matriarch heal be so easily stopped?

Yea, I used the clan fear heal several years back, and it honestly was a great heal. But it's so unreliable against a decent player or someone who knows that killing the pet = killing you.

fred4

I agree that getting good healing into stamsorc is difficult, which tends to pigeonhole you into a few available options. In the past, the combination of Crit Surge and health regen could work, but health regen has long been nerfed and Crit Surge is not reliable at range. I find stamsorc healing difficult to implement, but not impossible. The following points aren't meant to necessarily disagree, but I'm wondering whether you considered them:

• Incorporating Stampede / Crit Rush into your build gives you a guaranteed Crit Surge Heal.
• Draining Shot with a Blackrose bow gets good healing and one of the nastiest DOTs into your bowsorc. You tend to give away coordinated burst, if you're relying on this as a heal, but it works for a pressure build.
• You can still build for some health regen, for example with Gaze of Sithis and Endurance jewelry, +20% from sorc passive, gold food and up to 1.5K from Strategic Reserve CP. If you use Overload, sorc is in the unique position of not having to blow all of their ultimate at once. To the best of my recollection I've had 3K+ health regen from the combination of the above in PvP. Sithis + an Endurance back bar takes up 4 armor slots, leaving you to complete two 5-piece sets on the front bar. If your front bar includes Bound Armorments and your back bar the Atro ult, that retains the +20% health regen on both bars and even tends to balance out your health across the two bars (without the atro ult being active).
• I think you understate the combination of Streak, Dark Deal and sprinting / dodge rolling with a bow a little. You have to alternate these options to get around Streak's and dodge rolling's ramping costs. Yes, Streak has the mentioned issues. Streaking down a steep slope can be deadly. Yes, people can follow you, if they really want to. You still have the best mobility. I play a very fast nightblade, basically at speed cap most of the time. I can just about keep up with a streaking sorc. Most other builds can not. Gap closers would be an issue, if they were more popular, but outside of Toppling Charge, I don't think they are. The 400ms delay on gap closers and the issues with DK Leap in some content keeps their popularity down.
• Next patch, let's see what Mara's Balm and the improved Vigor bring to the table. We could be looking at a heal tank meta all round and stamsorc may just be fine along with everyone else in the survival department. (No one will die, hahahaha).
• As for critical options, Rallying Cry and Order's Wrath are arguably meta and quite meta now, so if it wasn't for the fact that every other bowsorc chose Savage Werewolf instead (and Oakensoul), you might be in business. The lack of crit options reminds me of DK. No, DK doesn't have ult gen passives. If you want to take advantage, you have to build for that yourself. ZOS said something like "DK is meant to struggle with sustain". But does stamsorc lack crit options? A bow synergises well with it and bows give you some crit. I think Hurricane only ticking every two seconds will be an issue for activating Crit Surge, though.

Really comes down to what kind of stamsorc you want to play. Melee? Ranged? Hybrid? I don't PvP much right now, but I got the crap pressured out of me by a Force Shock sorc a while ago. Insane damage, though possibly buffed by his group. Force Shock has to be another option to activate Crit Surge fairly reliably.

On the bow front, I was surprised to see sorcs using all sorts of arena weapons. Bombard spammers, but not that many Draining Shot users. Well, I really do not PvP enough right now, so this is purely anecdotal, but I remember killing a stam DK and largely staying in melee range, simply outhealing him with Vigor + Draining Shot + Dark Deal on an Oakensoul build. I didn't have to Streak much. Was forced into disengaging from time to time more by sustain issues than by taking excessive damage. He wasn't a pushover. He seemed a decent player. It took a while. I just remember thinking the combination of Vigor, Draining Shot and Dark Deal really worked. No Crit Surge and no health regen to speak of in that one.

EDIT: Well, you're not suggesting anything too crazy, although I confess that I like the option of building into Crit Surge at current (higher) healing values, for example with Mechanical Acuity. I think you have a point in that you make sacrifices to get healing, which can end up substantially blunting your damage. This, however, is a problem I have with many builds and virtually all classes. I like balanced builds, even nightblades. Crystal Weapon has yielded some insanely competitive damage lately. As with nightblades I think people take advantage of that for hit and run playstyles. The class inevitably gets balanced around what's possible with such builds. That said, yes, stamsorc healing has always felt weird and unreliable to me, coming from other classes (until I made the Draining Shot build basically). I guess we'll have to see next patch. Since Crystal Weapon will be severely blunted, maybe gaining strength in some other area - healing - will be warranted. Or everyone will wear Mara's Balm...

StaticWave

fred4 wrote: »

[*] Incorporating Stampede / Crit Rush into your build gives you a guaranteed Crit Surge Heal.

I have a DoT build for 2H and DW. For 2H, I run Stampede with vMA set, Caltrops, Hurricane, and Carve as my DoTs. It helps proccing crit surge a lot. However, I don't think it's really that great given how people can walk out of the AoE and it's really only reliable in a large and chaotic fight, but I doubt crit surge would really matter in that scenario because we have healers in team fights. For DW, I use Rending Slash instead of Carve. It's much better than the 2H version because vDSA is a stronger set. But then I lose Rally, so it's a trade-off that I'm still considering to this day.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] Draining Shot with a Blackrose bow gets good healing and one of the nastiest DOTs into your bowsorc. You tend to give away coordinated burst, if you're relying on this as a heal, but it works for a pressure build.

I have also tried that build, but what I don't like about it is a good opponent who roll dodges will prevent you from healing. I don't like having a heal that can get countered by a simple defensive mechanic. Other than that, it's decent if you can put pressure on someone.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] You can still build for some health regen, for example with Gaze of Sithis and Endurance jewelry, +20% from sorc passive, gold food and up to 1.5K from Strategic Reserve CP. If you use Overload, sorc is in the unique position of not having to blow all of their ultimate at once. To the best of my recollection I've had 3K+ health regen from the combination of the above in PvP. Sithis + an Endurance back bar takes up 4 armor slots, leaving you to complete two 5-piece sets on the front bar. If your front bar includes Bound Armorments and your back bar the Atro ult, that retains the +20% health regen on both bars and even tends to balance out your health across the two bars (without the atro ult being active).

Dropping SnB is a no go for me. Besides, I'm a vamp stage 3, so HP regen doesn't really help me that much.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] I think you understate the combination of Streak, Dark Deal and sprinting / dodge rolling with a bow a little. You have to alternate these options to get around Streak's and dodge rolling's ramping costs. Yes, Streak has the mentioned issues. Streaking down a steep slope can be deadly. Yes, people can follow you, if they really want to. You still have the best mobility. I play a very fast nightblade, basically at speed cap most of the time. I can just about keep up with a streaking sorc. Most other builds can not. Gap closers would be an issue, if they were more popular, but outside of Toppling Charge, I don't think they are. The 400ms delay on gap closers and the issues with DK Leap in some content keeps their popularity down.

I understand it very well actually. I also know several advanced Streak mechanics that most people probably don't know about (Streak jumping onto a higher ledge that a normal Streak can't get you there, changing direction mid Streak to get to places a normal Streak can't get you to, increasing the Streak range if you're on a higher ground, rolling mid Streak to dodge ranged attacks, etc.) I'm going to use NB as an example here, just because these 2 classes are very similar and their defenses are somewhat similar. Shadow Cloak + Shade combination is arguably the best defensive combination in the game. Sure, Cloak gets countered if you're slow. But if you move fast, Cloak is very reliable. I don't think I've ever had more than 10 occasions where I can't get away while using these 2 abilities together. The fact that you can place a Shade on top of a Keep, jump down to get a few fights, then Cloak away and Shade back up the keep is something I would only dream of on my stamsorc.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] Next patch, let's see what Mara's Balm and the improved Vigor bring to the table. We could be looking at a heal tank meta all round and stamsorc may just be fine along with everyone else in the survival department. (No one will die, hahahaha).

I would only hope that's the case. Healing has always been my biggest issue and every build I currently make centers around trying to get more heals. There aren't many options other than Resto Staff.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] As for critical options, Rallying Cry and Order's Wrath are arguably meta and quite meta now, so if it wasn't for the fact that every other bowsorc chose Savage Werewolf instead (and Oakensoul), you might be in business. The lack of crit options reminds me of DK. No, DK doesn't have ult gen passives. If you want to take advantage, you have to build for that yourself. ZOS said something like "DK is meant to struggle with sustain". But does stamsorc lack crit options? A bow synergises well with it and bows give you some crit. I think Hurricane only ticking every two seconds will be an issue for activating Crit Surge, though.

I actually currently run a crit build with 40% Crit chance. I've made sacrifices to my other offensive stats (weapon damage and penetration), to reach 40% crit. Is it really worth it? Compared to my lower crit chance build it is worth it. Is it really good compared to other classes? No, not even close. NB and Necros don't have to invest into crit chance, and they have passives boosting other offensive stats. DK and Plar have to somewhat invest into crit chance, but their whole kit makes up for it by having several sources of HoT, an actual good burst heal, and just generally being tanky. Heck, even NB has a very good burst heal now. You don't see a NB using Rally anymore. Most of them have swapped over to DW to run Power Extraction and Healthy Offering. It's much better than Rally and gives more damage from DW passives.

fred4 wrote: »

[*] Really comes down to what kind of stamsorc you want to play. Melee? Ranged? Hybrid? I don't PvP much right now, but I got the crap pressured out of me by a Force Shock sorc a while ago. Insane damage, though possibly buffed by his group. Force Shock has to be another option to activate Crit Surge fairly reliably.

I don't have a fixed playstyle. I play whatever lets me survive. At the moment, it is Bowsorc (without procs of course). Melee sorcs have fallen out of meta. You're going against plars, dks, necros, and nbs. All of them have better offense and healing than you. It's rough out there for melee sorcs. I still do well against the majority of players because I'm a seasoned sorc main, but for someone who just hops on this class after a long break is a different story. All my friends who hopped on sorc complain about the lack of healing and switch back to other classes. It's very understandable and I don't blame them.

fred4 wrote: »

On the bow front, I was surprised to see sorcs using all sorts of arena weapons. Bombard spammers, but not that many Draining Shot users. Well, I really do not PvP enough right now, so this is purely anecdotal, but I remember killing a stam DK and largely staying in melee range, simply outhealing him with Vigor + Draining Shot + Dark Deal on an Oakensoul build. I didn't have to Streak much. Was forced into disengaging from time to time more by sustain issues than by taking excessive damage. He wasn't a pushover. He seemed a decent player. It took a while. I just remember thinking the combination of Vigor, Draining Shot and Dark Deal really worked. No Crit Surge and no health regen to speak of in that one.

Bombard is generally better. It doesn't heal, but it provides insane CC pressure, which I think is more valuable in group PvP and even outnumbered PvP. I would try Draining Shot again if it wasn't so easy to counter it by experienced players.

fred4 wrote: »

EDIT: Well, you're not suggesting anything too crazy, although I confess that I like the option of building into Crit Surge at current (higher) healing values, for example with Mechanical Acuity. I think you have a point in that you make sacrifices to get healing, which can end up substantially blunting your damage. This, however, is a problem I have with many builds and virtually all classes. I like balanced builds, even nightblades. Crystal Weapon has yielded some insanely competitive damage lately. As with nightblades I think people take advantage of that for hit and run playstyles. The class inevitably gets balanced around what's possible with such builds. That said, yes, stamsorc healing has always felt weird and unreliable to me, coming from other classes (until I made the Draining Shot build basically). I guess we'll have to see next patch. Since Crystal Weapon will be severely blunted, maybe gaining strength in some other area - healing - will be warranted. Or everyone will wear Mara's Balm...

Funnily enough, Mechanical Acuity used to be my main set. I had so much success with that set before they double nerfed it. Just being able to frontload all your damage into several GCDs takes full advantage of Sorc's burst setup. Now I don't really think it's worth it on this class. It's better on a class like Plar with sustained pressure. I think the only thing making Sorc competitive right now is Crystal Weapon. With that and Savage WW nerfed, you will quickly see it fall out of meta like last patch. Maybe Bowsorcs who ran older builds before Savage WW became meta will stick around, but you definitely won't see many, if any, melee sorcs around.

fred4

@StaticWave: Ha! I got you to show off your Streak knowledge. That's experience. ZOS should listen to you!

As a nightblade main, I want to comment on the comparison. No disagreement, just perspective:

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm going to use NB as an example here, just because these 2 classes are very similar and their defenses are somewhat similar.

Agree!

Shadow Cloak + Shade combination is arguably the best defensive combination in the game.

Except Shadow Image anchors you to a location. Streak is more reactive in an emergency than either and allows you to go with the flow. You can be relatively carefree with it. Getting into cloak is harder on nightblade, because it's invariably a two step process. Either you play with foresight and Shadow Image, which has time and range limitations, or you need to juggle cloak and RAT. If not RAT, then dodge rolling and Shuffle on a stamblade. However I agree that Cloak statistically leads to escape / disengagement more reliably than Streak, if that's what you're after.

Sure, Cloak gets countered if you're slow. But if you move fast, Cloak is very reliable.

Hard agree! However, and this is a big one, I quite possibly make as many sacrifices to get that speed as you make to get healing into your sorc. I play melee magblade (or mixed melee / ranged). Basically my survivability is very good only if I'm at or near the speed cap in cloak at all times. That means all Swift, Wild Hunt, Concealed on both bars (one for attack / stun, one for speed) and the mag sustain to frequently cast RAT inbetween cloaking. With Oakensoul I've had the luxury of damage and overall stats to compensate for Wild Hunt via better RAT sustain, but I'm no longer at the speed cap in combat. This is something I can feel.

I've tried everything. I've tried bow on magblade, because dodge rolling with a bow gives you speed earlier than RAT in sticky situations. However in the end, like you, I am someone who blocks in emergency. I've also tried dual-wield, but am currently using an ice staff (with Oakensoul) so I can block efficiently. When I'm focused, it's always a question of "When can I stop block-spamming Shrewd Offering and not die?" and "Do I have time to cast RAT, before I cloak, or would that make it more likely I die?".

Yes, Shrewd Offering is great, especially on magblade, but in the end both classes suffer from the same blessing and curse: Their mobility. That mobility enables squishy builds who take limited target selection or a certain amount of dying for granted, possibly more than the two of us do, and this is what the game is balanced around. If you want to make a balanced build with good survival, you make compromises.

I've played a "proper" blocking DK recently. Medium armor, Steadfast's Mettle set, block cost of something like 400. Insane. Completely insane mitigation, compared to what I'm used to. Not specced into mobility, though. The sorcs and nightblades would dart in and out of combat around me and there was not much I could do. If they wanted to survive, they did.

You're right. Crystal Weapon is going to be nerfed next patch and stamsorc seems dependent on it.

Concealed Weapon on the other hand is a strange one. I think +10% damage is actually an insane buff and no one seems to have quite grasped that or they're exhausted from talking about the patch notes. Some people (including ZOS) seem to think +300 weapon / spell damage was stronger. Maybe due to the duration. But in PvP? Hell no! 5 seconds is short, but good enough - activated by RAT or cloaking. The Minor Expedition is a double-edged sword, though. Even though I get in combat speed, I will miss the stacking speed bonus in cloak. This may force me back into Wild Hunt for my playstyle without Shadow Image.

StaticWave

fred4 wrote: »

@StaticWave: Ha! I got you to show off your Streak knowledge. That's experience. ZOS should listen to you!

As a nightblade main, I want to comment on the comparison. No disagreement, just perspective:

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm going to use NB as an example here, just because these 2 classes are very similar and their defenses are somewhat similar.

Agree!

Shadow Cloak + Shade combination is arguably the best defensive combination in the game.

Except Shadow Image anchors you to a location. Streak is more reactive in an emergency than either and allows you to go with the flow. You can be relatively carefree with it. Getting into cloak is harder on nightblade, because it's invariably a two step process. Either you play with foresight and Shadow Image, which has time and range limitations, or you need to juggle cloak and RAT. If not RAT, then dodge rolling and Shuffle on a stamblade. However I agree that Cloak statistically leads to escape / disengagement more reliably than Streak, if that's what you're after.

Sure, Cloak gets countered if you're slow. But if you move fast, Cloak is very reliable.

Hard agree! However, and this is a big one, I quite possibly make as many sacrifices to get that speed as you make to get healing into your sorc. I play melee magblade (or mixed melee / ranged). Basically my survivability is very good only if I'm at or near the speed cap in cloak at all times. That means all Swift, Wild Hunt, Concealed on both bars (one for attack / stun, one for speed) and the mag sustain to frequently cast RAT inbetween cloaking. With Oakensoul I've had the luxury of damage and overall stats to compensate for Wild Hunt via better RAT sustain, but I'm no longer at the speed cap in combat. This is something I can feel.

I've tried everything. I've tried bow on magblade, because dodge rolling with a bow gives you speed earlier than RAT in sticky situations. However in the end, like you, I am someone who blocks in emergency. I've also tried dual-wield, but am currently using an ice staff (with Oakensoul) so I can block efficiently. When I'm focused, it's always a question of "When can I stop block-spamming Shrewd Offering and not die?" and "Do I have time to cast RAT, before I cloak, or would that make it more likely I die?".

Yes, Shrewd Offering is great, especially on magblade, but in the end both classes suffer from the same blessing and curse: Their mobility. That mobility enables squishy builds who take limited target selection or a certain amount of dying for granted, possibly more than the two of us do, and this is what the game is balanced around. If you want to make a balanced build with good survival, you make compromises.

I've played a "proper" blocking DK recently. Medium armor, Steadfast's Mettle set, block cost of something like 400. Insane. Completely insane mitigation, compared to what I'm used to. Not specced into mobility, though. The sorcs and nightblades would dart in and out of combat around me and there was not much I could do. If they wanted to survive, they did.

You're right. Crystal Weapon is going to be nerfed next patch and stamsorc seems dependent on it.

Concealed Weapon on the other hand is a strange one. I think +10% damage is actually an insane buff and no one seems to have quite grasped that or they're exhausted from talking about the patch notes. Some people (including ZOS) seem to think +300 weapon / spell damage was stronger. Maybe due to the duration. But in PvP? Hell no! 5 seconds is short, but good enough - activated by RAT or cloaking. The Minor Expedition is a double-edged sword, though. Even though I get in combat speed, I will miss the stacking speed bonus in cloak. This may force me back into Wild Hunt for my playstyle without Shadow Image.

Lol thanks. I learned from other players. I might make a thread on the forum sharing this knowledge.

Yea, I agree NB also has to make some sacrifices in the survivability department. I think with the recent buffs though, NB might not actually need to invest that much into defense anymore. Vigor giving Minor Resolve, Healthy Offering being a decent burst heal, and next patch's buffs will make NB a very strong class.