Are the Patrons all male?

gronin

And if so why?

Katheriah

I always pretend Hlaalu is a granny because he kinda looks like a girl.

Was signed,
A girl.

Soarora

Yes, they are. I figure that it was accidental.

gronin

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, they are. I figure that it was accidental.

I was kinda thinking that the days of “accidentally forgetting” that women are part of the online gaming community and might like to see some representation, should be at an end.

Soarora

gronin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, they are. I figure that it was accidental.

I was kinda thinking that the days of “accidentally forgetting” that women are part of the online gaming community and might like to see some representation, should be at an end.

Personally, I see it lore-wise not representation-wise, there's plenty of representation in ESO. I think the spread of different striking people from lore from different cultures was well-picked, though I really did think Delmene was a woman. Since he did not exist beforehand like the others did, I would not be mad if he was changed to be female. I would genuinely be interested to see how many people consider this a big deal though... I don't and I'm a woman, but I can't speak for everyone.

Personofsecrets

Are they all male? How would you know?

redspecter23

I find there is very little sload representation among the patrons. Also, no dragon representation. I'd also like to see more daedra representation.

spartaxoxo

They probably already have other decks on the backburner as more will be coming, and some of those are probably ladies. All the companions were ladies. I think they just do a mix of stuff and it happened to work out this way.

Faded

Potema would make an interesting patron. Absolutely ruthless.

It's surprising Alessia wasn't in the first wave, now that you mention it.

VaranisArano

Soarora wrote: »

gronin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, they are. I figure that it was accidental.

I was kinda thinking that the days of “accidentally forgetting” that women are part of the online gaming community and might like to see some representation, should be at an end.

Personally, I see it lore-wise not representation-wise, there's plenty of representation in ESO. I think the spread of different striking people from lore from different cultures was well-picked, though I really did think Delmene was a woman. Since he did not exist beforehand like the others did, I would not be mad if he was changed to be female. I would genuinely be interested to see how many people consider this a big deal though... I don't and I'm a woman, but I can't speak for everyone.

I don't play Tales of Tribute so I hadn't realized. I do find it interesting. I assume that for the most part the Devs thought of a theme and then looked at the available characters...and then presumably realized that there aren't a ton of recognizable female characters in those factions. That's something that ESO could change in time as they add lore for factions, but in some ways it's indicative of the lore as already written.

Red Eagle and Orgnum at least have the excuse that their cultures are so underrepresented in the games that they are pretty much the only major character name we know from the historical lore.

The Crows and the Ansei both had a few notable named women, but the Duke is a recurring character and Frandar is the most accomplished Ansei. So okay, that's probably why they were chosen.

Saint Pelin is obviously the guy who got picked to be the Breton for the High Isle Chapter. Not sure why they couldn't find a breton woman of equal importance (unless there isn't one in the lore from earlier games).

Rajhin is a thief god and the only Khajiit in amongst several humans and elves so it'd be a shame to lose him, but he's hardly the only thief out there. Nocturnal comes to mind. The Thieves Guildmaster could have been a good choice, represented by Zeira in ESO.

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

Grandmaster Delmene Hlaalu is probably the most egregious choice, seeing as how he appears to have been invented for Tales of Tribute and there's no reason why he had to be male.


Which is to say that the creators of the Tales of Tribute patrons had some lore-friendly options, and doubtless had their reasons for why they didn't take those options. And hopefully as they create their future decks, they'll look for those options when they realize they've accidentally launched with eight male patrons and zero women.

Soarora

@VaranisArano (I don't want to quote the entire post) you nailed my thoughts right on the head and explained them much better than I could have, thank you!

Ilsabet

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

SilverBride

It's kind of hard to tell with a Crow.

FluffyBird

ZOS just wanted to show respect to female patrons by introducing them later, when ToT is more settled and polished (jk)

Tuonra2

What a silly thing to stumble over. {snip]

[edited for baiting]

Futard

What is the issue with this forum lately?
First we had some pronouns thread and now this one?

Why are some people so focused on gender and stuff?
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

HeavyESO

Why is the male:female companion ratio 1:3? Do they not know more men play the game than women?

Oh wait, it doesn't matter...

VaranisArano

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

Personofsecrets

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

VaranisArano

SilverBride wrote: »

It's kind of hard to tell with a Crow.

I get where you're going with this, but ESO's Blackfeather Court use gendered titles, so it isn't hard to tell. Lady Blightwing exists, but she only appears in Clockwork City.

Now, the Devs had more options for a Crow-themed deck, since that would have opened up the door for the Hagravens we know about or even Noctural. But since they wanted the Blackfeather Court, they were stuck in a trap of their own making: the recognizable, recurring character is the Duke.

FluffyBird

I'm just a tad tired that whenever there's a group of characters, people first of all rush to check whether they are male or female.
I'm a female. I couldn't care less about representation. I'm annoyed by quotas and agendas.

And I find it mildly offensive and hypocritical, when people ask for female representation that way. With "pick her over him because she's a woman" instead of "this (coincidentally female) character would make a great patron because they are cool and interesting is some way and their faction would add this and that to the game".

This is good:

Faded wrote: »

Potema would make an interesting patron. Absolutely ruthless.

This is reducing Nocturnal and Zeira to "their only point is being female"

VaranisArano wrote: »

Rajhin is a thief god and the only Khajiit in amongst several humans and elves so it'd be a shame to lose him, but he's hardly the only thief out there. Nocturnal comes to mind. The Thieves Guildmaster could have been a good choice, represented by Zeira in ESO.

re-edited because cleaning up wording nuked all the meaning

NeKryXe

gronin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, they are. I figure that it was accidental.

I was kinda thinking that the days of “accidentally forgetting” that women are part of the online gaming community and might like to see some representation, should be at an end.

Humm... That's kind of confusing. I'm a male and when I see that all patrons are male I think that they are forgetting that men are part of the online gaming community too and might like to see more female characters.

Anyway... jokes apart. I've been playing for decades and even before Tomb Raider, when (unfortunately) there wasn't many girls playing, women had already a huge representation in games. So... When I see something like this, "patrons all male", I imagine that it was designed by women.

VaranisArano

FluffyBird wrote: »

I'm just a tad tired that whenever there's a group of characters, people first of all rush to check whether they [snip].
I'm a female. I couldn't care less about representation. I'm annoyed by quotas and agendas.

And I find it mildly offensive and hypocritical, when people ask for female representation that way. With "pick her over him because she's a woman" instead of "this (coincidentally female) character would make a great patron because they are cool and interesting is some way and their faction would add this and that to the game".

This is good:

Faded wrote: »

Potema would make an interesting patron. Absolutely ruthless.

This is reducing Nocturnal and Zeira to [snip]

Okay.

My point was less "ZOS must pick women" and "even when ZOS had a few options within their chosen theme, they picked a man for various reasons." And they did that 8 times, apparently without realizing that they were launching their card game with 8 male patrons.

Tamrielic society is supposed to be egalitarian, right? Time and again in ESO, we see both men and women in positions of leadership. So, logically, that should be reflected in the historical lore and there should be more options for the Devs to choose from. If the Devs and especially the Loremaster look back at how they came to the point of launching 8 decks with zero female patrons, then maybe they can look at how to change that for the future as they add lore to the Elder Scrolls in expansions.

It's less about checking boxes for representation, and more me taking a look back at the older lore and realizing just how little women there are in major leadership roles who might get picked as patrons.


Rajhin was one example here the Devs had options within a broader theme of thievery. I like Rajhin, but he is distinct from choices like Red Eagle or Orgnum in that there were options for women that weren't used and thus I think it's worth pointing that out.

Coming at this from the perspective of the singleplayer games, I think of Nocturnal as the patron of Thieves from Oblivion and Skyrim. I think it's cool that we've got a Khajiit God instead, but it also clear to me that ZOS chose not to use Nocturnal here for whatever reason seemed good to them. Maybe they want to avoid daedra - only the devs know.

And I like Zeira. Sue me. I figured that a Thieves Guildmaster deck would just be a mysterious female figure in guild armor because in ESO the guildmaster is female right now.

I'll give the Devs a fair shake here. The Khajiit are known for their stance on thievery, for good and ill, and Rajhin is a fun character. It's just that in this lineup, his inclusion helps illustrate some of the choice the Devs and Lore people didn't make.

I honestly think most of the patron choices fell prey to the same thought process "We need a recognizeable leader character from the older 1st/2nd era lore" and shockingly those were male.

The glaring exception is the Hlaalu Grandmaster. As far as I can tell, Delmene is made up for Tales. The lore folks kinda whiffed on that one, because they could've changed this whole conversation if they'd thought about it. (Incidentally, since I don't play ToT, I had wrongfully assumed that Delmene was a woman because it's a female Dunmer name in TES 3.)


Finally, Potema isn't an option because she's from the 3rd Era. She's a Septim.

Can you think of some more notable women from the 1st and 2nd era that you'd like as a patron in this 2nd Era game?

VaranisArano

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Personofsecrets

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Share some of that lore.

VaranisArano

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Share some of that lore.

Feel free to peruse the UESP at your leisure. The patron articles also link to their lore pages: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tales_of_Tribute

Personofsecrets

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Share some of that lore.

Feel free to peruse the UESP at your leisure. The patron articles also link to their lore pages: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tales_of_Tribute

Why don't you show us all where Grandmaster Delmene Hlaalu is explicitly stated to be a man?

Also, what titles make these characters be men?

FluffyBird

VaranisArano wrote: »

Rajhin was one example here the Devs had options within a broader theme of thievery. I like Rajhin, but he is distinct from choices like Red Eagle or Orgnum in that there were options for women that weren't used and thus I think it's worth pointing that out.

Coming at this from the perspective of the singleplayer games, I think of Nocturnal as the patron of Thieves from Oblivion and Skyrim. I think it's cool that we've got a Khajiit God instead, but it also clear to me that ZOS chose not to use Nocturnal here for whatever reason seemed good to them. Maybe they want to avoid daedra - only the devs know.

And I like Zeira. Sue me. I figured that a Thieves Guildmaster deck would just be a mysterious female figure in guild armor because in ESO the guildmaster is female right now.

I'll give the Devs a fair shake here. The Khajiit are known for their stance on thievery, for good and ill, and Rajhin is a fun character. It's just that in this lineup, his inclusion helps illustrate some of the choice the Devs and Lore people didn't make.

Nocturnal and Zeira don't have that "trickster" aspect.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, Potema isn't an option because she's from the 3rd Era. She's a Septim.

Can you think of some more notable women from the 1st and 2nd era that you'd like as a patron in this 2nd Era game?

Potema is a good example, because author of the comment came up with a reason why she is actually interesting. For that purpose it's irrelevant whether she actually could be a patron.

I don't know lore too well, unfortunately. Arlimahera seems to be quite ruthless too. Alessia could be a terrific rebellion-themed patron. If we still can pick daedra, Vaermina or Dibella sound like their decks could be a ton of fun.

VaranisArano

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Share some of that lore.

Feel free to peruse the UESP at your leisure. The patron articles also link to their lore pages: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tales_of_Tribute

Why don't you show us all where Grandmaster Delmene Hlaalu is explicitly stated to be a man?

Also, what titles make these characters be men?

This is the last time I'm going to give you easily Google-able information. If you care enough to find the answers to your questions instead of merely wasting my time by not looking at the sources I've directed you to, you have what you need to do so.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62165

Now, I hope you have yourself a great day!

Faded

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, Potema isn't an option because she's from the 3rd Era. She's a Septim.

Can you think of some more notable women from the 1st and 2nd era that you'd like as a patron in this 2nd Era game?

Sad, isn't it. As soon as I thought of her I wanted to see that deck, but she'll only be in whatever standalone money grab they may release.

If they're avoiding gods and deadra, in the 2nd era they're looking at a lot of bros. Pelin probably precludes Alessia making an appearance. Spoiler would have been cool but I can see why they went with Celarus. The Green Lady and Almalexia are both problematic. And that's all I can think of without a lore refresh. Maybe the Direnni patron. Edit: or the Beldama Wyrd, that could be awesome.

I agree: it's not the devs, it's the loremasters.

Personofsecrets

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Loremaster Celarus is...I can only assume that ZOS did not name it after the Psijic woman who should be representing her order only because she's a spoiler for the Summerset Chapter:

Ritemaster Valsirenn

I'm guessing Celarus is seen as a particularly notable Psijic because he is mentioned as the group's leader in texts found in earlier games (indicating that he takes over at some point after the events of ESO). So if they were going for long-established lore, they probably picked him out as having more cachet than character(s) who only appear in ESO.

Yeah...it IS just a tiny bit awkward when there's like three named Psijic women of rank and the other two eventually get expelled from the Order. I suspect that's a prime example of older lore not giving us any named Psijic women since as far as I know, since having Ulliceta be a Psijic before appearing as a necromancer in Oblivion is something that ESO made up.

But this is kind of still going to prove my point. I'm sure the ToT Devs wanted recognizable characters for the in-universe players and ESO players to recognize as important figures in their factions.

It's just that in choosing the factions they did, there's a limited selection. And every single time, out of eight different factions and themes, that figure was a man.

That's indicative of a deeper problem than just "the Devs accidentally picked all guys." That's indicative of a older game series' lore that was written largely by guys for guys and has a dearth of recognizable, famous women at the head of their faction.

And before anyone rolls in with counterexamples, of which there are a number throughout the games and some in the historical lore to pick from like Alessia or Almalexia, I'm just going to note that none of those counterexamples were picked for the launch of Tales of Tribute.


A final note for anyone going, "Why is this a problem?"

If you can't see a problem with the idea that the Devs went looking for recognizable characters from older lore (except for the one they made up for the game) to serve as patrons for their game and came up with eight men and zero women for the launch decks, I'm not really sure what I can say. I certainly can't make you agree with me.

I don't think this was malicious from the Devs. I think it's a systemic problem with the older TES lore that has a dearth of named women in leadership roles. As ESO continues to create new historical lore about the areas they explore, that's something they should keep in mind.

And you can't fix a problem if it's being swept under a rug.

How do you know that all of the Patrons are men?

My sarcasm detector is on back order, sorry.

They are all explicitly identified as male in their lore, appearances, and/or use of gendered title.

Share some of that lore.

Feel free to peruse the UESP at your leisure. The patron articles also link to their lore pages: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tales_of_Tribute

Why don't you show us all where Grandmaster Delmene Hlaalu is explicitly stated to be a man?

Also, what titles make these characters be men?

This is the last time I'm going to give you easily Google-able information. If you care enough to find the answers to your questions instead of merely wasting my time by not looking at the sources I've directed you to, you have what you need to do so.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62165

Now, I hope you have yourself a great day!

And what titles make these characters men?