How to deal with burst heal

Suligost

My question is simple, maybe there is a way and I don't see it. How to deal with burst heal of a let's say DK for instance. Defile is only 16% (sad hehe) so not much of a change. Ofcorse any advice accepted outside of "YOU NEED MORE BURST to kill people in less then 0,7 second".

FirmamentOfStars

Generally every class has some kind of defensive gameplay style. Templars and DKs are famous for holding block and burst heal up. Currently most classes build for more hots aswell, so they have a resto backbar and can not block for too long. You can drain their stamina nicely as one counter measure. Another advice I can give you is to time your stun. Most players have some kind of health treshhold, when they start going defensively. If you manage to stun the enemy at the right moment together with your burst, then you catch your enemy on the backfoot. He first has to break free and probs is left with low health if you succeed with stun and burst at the right time. Mostly you can finish them off in this state, sometimes they go super defensive and survive, but they are mostly low on resources in this case, so you have to keep going pressuring them.

Tipp 1: You can drain the enemies resources.
Tipp 2: Time your burst and stun together to get the enemy into finish range easely.

Suligost

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Generally every class has some kind of defensive gameplay style. Templars and DKs are famous for holding block and burst heal up. Currently most classes build for more hots aswell, so they have a resto backbar and can not block for too long. You can drain their stamina nicely as one counter measure. Another advice I can give you is to time your stun. Most players have some kind of health treshhold, when they start going defensively. If you manage to stun the enemy at the right moment together with your burst, then you catch your enemy on the backfoot. He first has to break free and probs is left with low health if you succeed with stun and burst at the right time. Mostly you can finish them off in this state, sometimes they go super defensive and survive, but they are mostly low on resources in this case, so you have to keep going pressuring them.

Tipp 1: You can drain the enemies resources.
Tipp 2: Time your burst and stun together to get the enemy into finish range easely.

Tipp 1: It's not like my resources are endless. Actually I'm draining myself aswell while draining the person healing or block.
Tipp 2: Problem is that when you get to that treshold is again heal... press block, deny crit or execute and heal back again.

Overall draining out of resources takes time aswell... time usually you don't have cuz you are not dueling. It's most of the time BG or Cyro, so group fights or mass fights. What you said about stun is basically opening window for that 0,7 second of burst I'm super aware of... but it's stun and sudden burst. It doesn't solve problem of healing. I want a way, to negate healing, not to outdamage enemy healing.

xylena_lazarow

Due to poor game balance, there are many defensive PvP builds (including "healers" that are also tanks) that simply aren't going to die 1v1 and must be zerged down. Learning to identify these players saves a lot of brick wall head banging. If you can easily chunk their hp, you can probably then grind them down following the good advice given by the 2nd post. If their health doesn't move much, they've got around 35k worth of it, and are dropping defensive ults... zerg em or leave em.

Suligost

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Due to poor game balance, there are many defensive PvP builds (including "healers" that are also tanks) that simply aren't going to die 1v1 and must be zerged down. Learning to identify these players saves a lot of brick wall head banging. If you can easily chunk their hp, you can probably then grind them down following the good advice given by the 2nd post. If their health doesn't move much, they've got around 35k worth of it, and are dropping defensive ults... zerg em or leave em.

This people don't pose any danger cuz they sacrified everything just to... stand, so I don't have problem with that. I'm talking about issue with healing scalling of dmg and situtations of sudden burst healing 80% of HP. That's what I'm asking for, how to deny it. AGAIN something what's not your 0,7 mindless burst coming of my initiation of a fight or post stun (because that mean I must run the same build and use the same strategy as that person).

Suligost

Guys, all you give for now is what I didnt wanted in the first place: "YOU NEED MORE BURST to kill people in less then 0,7 second".

I don't want stack dmg to outdamage healing, I don't want stun for 0,5 second to drop stacked dmg. I'm looking for combination of skills/sets/items or something that gonna turn off healing (outside of negate magic) or make it sooo debuffed that they become useless.

xylena_lazarow

Suligost wrote: »

This people don't pose any danger... I'm looking for combination of skills/sets/items or something that gonna turn off healing

The useless brick tanks can be ignored, but the ones that effectively heal allies are most definitely dangerous. Unfortunately, what you want doesn't exist, there is no real counter to stacked defense and healing. Game balance is screwed. We've been trying to communicate this to the devs for years, as I'm 100% with you that "just one-shot them lol" is not counterplay and makes for terrible stagnant PvP. The closest thing to counterplay against stacked defense is Meatbag siege.

It's possible that u35 will be better with the HoT nerfs, but they also nerfed DoT dps, so I'm skeptical. You can still hold block and spam that burst heal for quite a long time, and just doing that alone is way too effective.

WoppaBoem

Wear them down and stun on the right moment to kill or out dmg and sustain them. You ether burst someone to zero. Or you make the right combo with stun and burst to prevent burst heal being used or continue doing dmg until the opponent runs out of resources. Burst heal is in the game to come back and turn around and attack. I love that about this game no call of duty time to kill (hate gankers atm) so know who you are fighting the players ability and what class and use strategy to win the fight.

WoppaBoem

Suligost wrote: »

Guys, all you give for now is what I didnt wanted in the first place: "YOU NEED MORE BURST to kill people in less then 0,7 second".

I don't want stack dmg to outdamage healing, I don't want stun for 0,5 second to drop stacked dmg. I'm looking for combination of skills/sets/items or something that gonna turn off healing (outside of negate magic) or make it sooo debuffed that they become useless.

why do you think it would be oke to have something to completely disable your opponents build? You really asking for a lot too much.

Suligost

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

Guys, all you give for now is what I didnt wanted in the first place: "YOU NEED MORE BURST to kill people in less then 0,7 second".

I don't want stack dmg to outdamage healing, I don't want stun for 0,5 second to drop stacked dmg. I'm looking for combination of skills/sets/items or something that gonna turn off healing (outside of negate magic) or make it sooo debuffed that they become useless.

why do you think it would be oke to have something to completely disable your opponents build? You really asking for a lot too much.

What build? Stack absurd dmg and get absurd healing cuz scalling is broken? Pick any dmg set and get profit? Ofcorse you should be able to reck such braindead play to pieces. If for instance you'd sacrifice dmg or ultimate or whatever for sake of focusing just purely on killing healers/heal stackers - YEA, be rewarded. BE REWARDED for trying to specializing in killing just on type of players, so maybe those fights start having some tactics and variety.

Suligost

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Suligost wrote: »

This people don't pose any danger... I'm looking for combination of skills/sets/items or something that gonna turn off healing

The useless brick tanks can be ignored, but the ones that effectively heal allies are most definitely dangerous. Unfortunately, what you want doesn't exist, there is no real counter to stacked defense and healing. Game balance is screwed. We've been trying to communicate this to the devs for years, as I'm 100% with you that "just one-shot them lol" is not counterplay and makes for terrible stagnant PvP. The closest thing to counterplay against stacked defense is Meatbag siege.

It's possible that u35 will be better with the HoT nerfs, but they also nerfed DoT dps, so I'm skeptical. You can still hold block and spam that burst heal for quite a long time, and just doing that alone is way too effective.

I was afraid of that, so it wasn't my blindess. Scalling is broken, healing scalling out of dmg and NOTHING to counter that outside of doing the same thing. Disgusting. I must object, just look at reply above, I think some of FEEDBACKS are partially part of the game problems, cuz dev atlest to some level listen to players but they themselves... mhmhm are part of the problem.

OBJnoob

In addition to what everyone else already said (which is true and you should stop bickering with people who are answering your question, you asked for what can be done not for a philosophical discussion on game theory,) there are sets like fasallas, duroks, ward of cyrodiil, and soldier of anguish that provide major and minor defile and heal absorption. Also anything you do that does disease damage has a chance to process minor defile. Or get more damage in your build. Or time your stun and burst better. That's it. Those are your options. You'll notice I haven't said I like it that way... I'm just saying that's how it is.

xylena_lazarow

OBJnoob wrote: »

sets like fasallas, duroks, ward of cyrodiil, and soldier of anguish

This is the problem though, these sets may have originally been designed to do what OP is asking for, but after so many nerfs both direct and indirect, are now pathetically ineffective.

OnGodiDoDis

Suligost wrote: »

My question is simple, maybe there is a way and I don't see it. How to deal with burst heal of a let's say DK for instance. Defile is only 16% (sad hehe) so not much of a change. Ofcorse any advice accepted outside of "YOU NEED MORE BURST to kill people in less then 0,7 second".

It is what it is. Some classes have better burst heals and some have better HoTs. If I can't kill them on my 3rd combo, I just walk away.

xylena_lazarow

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

It is what it is... I just walk away.

It shouldn't be that way though. If the best PvP strat is to avoid PvP, your game has a problem...

OnGodiDoDis

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

It is what it is... I just walk away.

It shouldn't be that way though. If the best PvP strat is to avoid PvP, your game has a problem...

Well, usually those builds can't kill anyone either. They're most likely troll builds like most werewolves. I like to call them marathon builds because they just run around.

Thecompton73

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

It is what it is... I just walk away.

It shouldn't be that way though. If the best PvP strat is to avoid PvP, your game has a problem...

Well, usually those builds can't kill anyone either. They're most likely troll builds like most werewolves. I like to call them marathon builds because they just run around.

That's not really true though. Those builds are often built around Clever Alchemist and Balorghs so they burst people down during the 10 seconds window both are up while still having high mitigation/health plus root and snare immunity to allow them to turtle up and/or use LOS between those burst windows.
ZOS has pushed PvP towards this tanky/burst damage meta for the last few years. Those types of builds rule PvP: if you build straight defense they might never kill you but you won't kill them either and if you build a glass cannon for high damage they'll shrug it off while turtling and then destroy you with a burst combo in 1-2 GCD's when CA and Balorgh's are ready.
When I see two of those builds fight each other it usually plays out with them taking turns trying to burst each other, coming close but failing to get the kill, repeat that for 10 minutes and then they just walk away from the stalemate. So 1v1 you're mostly correct. However the issue is hardly anyone runs solo anymore, so if you run a meta build while solo you'll most likely run into a group of 3-4 small scalers with the same type of build that will call you out on comms, focus you and take you down by timing their burst together.

etchedpixels

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

It is what it is... I just walk away.

It shouldn't be that way though. If the best PvP strat is to avoid PvP, your game has a problem...

Well, usually those builds can't kill anyone either. They're most likely troll builds like most werewolves. I like to call them marathon builds because they just run around.

Although these builds are very good for questing in those zones because when you meet some sad person camping the quest spots they eventually get bored and go away. They are also useful in big fights because they work like magnets for the clueless on the other side, pulling them out of the real fight or delaying them several minutes between locations whilst they chase the troll tank round and round a hill.

OBJnoob

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

sets like fasallas, duroks, ward of cyrodiil, and soldier of anguish

This is the problem though, these sets may have originally been designed to do what OP is asking for, but after so many nerfs both direct and indirect, are now pathetically ineffective.

Agreed. Personally I think major defile should go back up to 30% but nevertheless these are the options and I don’t think the answers provided here should be discounted.

The real problem in my mind, and I think someone else already alluded to it, is that the pvp meta is a tanky self healing meta. And players that are good enough to make use of these tools tend to gear themselves for X’ing instead of 1v1ing. So yes, even if you’re a good player, you may be unable to kill that person. Because they’re meant to tank 3 or 5 people so 1 isn’t really a problem.

The thing is, in my opinion, people complain they can’t kill these people because they too are adhering to the meta. There are lots of ways to be a successful high damage spec right now, whether it’s currently unnerfed oakensoul, ganking, heavy attacking, or bombing. These people can probably kill those people but prefer not to play these types of characters because in the chaotic mess of cyrodiil they feel squishy.

It doesn’t matter if you’re an Xer or not. If you’re on an X’ing build and you are dueling an Xer then you should expect to stalemate. Now I don’t know if this is healthy or not… at the moment I’d prefer to talk about what “is” rather than what “should be,” because I thought that was what was asked.

What it takes to beat these players 1v1 is somebody talented enough to X but is instead on a high damage 1v1 build. You just don’t find that much.

OBJnoob

I can’t tell you how many times the exact same enemy that just kited my whole group of 5-10, including me, healing through and kiting and even occasionally picking up kills… how many times I 1v1ed them afterwards and won. But I could never do what they just did.

At a certain point, when you’ve played the game enough, you relax and realize it’s all about Rock Paper Scissors and you need to decide which one you’ll be. Scissors isn’t going to beat rock. Rock isn’t going to beat rock either. Gotta decide what you’re gonna be and stop holding the rocks you see in such high esteem, or their builds in such low esteem.