Rework Caluurion's Legacy

OnGodiDoDis

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a staple in gank builds. There is no other set that can replace it. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Udrath

It’s possible to do the same damage with the same outcome without caluuarion. Yes it is one of MANY sets that are overtuned though (look at savage werewolf). Just view ganks as a survivability check, because they go up or down every patch. You can only adjust your build and play style to survive, or just accept that you can be ganked and try to have fun.

There is a counter to a gank build and it’s having high critical resistance and a good health pool 30k or more. With rallying cry or impregnable and cp critical resistance slot you can have nearly 5k critical resistance which gives you time to dodge roll and recover. Also the vampire undeath passive helps too. Percentage mitigation helps like buffer of the swift, major protection, cp passives etc.

Use detect pots more often, after a while you sort of just feel it coming, especially if you’re flanking a group or straying away from your group. I’m pretty sure solo pvp/1vX whatever you want to call it is dead. Group up or join the gankers because ZOS seems to pushing the idea you should lose if 2 or more players are attacking you now.

DrSlaughtr

I literally could accomplish the same thing with elemental/crushing weapon. Why don't more players use it? The animation is terrible and throws off your rotation.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a stable in gang builds. There is no other set that can replace it. It's just that good. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Caluurions isn't desyncing you. The server is. And it's a reaction to the CC out of stealth, just like every other CC in this game. You're just as likely to get desync'd from talons.

The stun on incap is not going to CC you again if you were just CC'd by the stun from sync.

The reason why the delay was added to Caluurions was to give you time to break free and defend. If you get desync'd that definitely sucks, but it's not my fault as the NB. Nerfing anything will not stop you from getting desync'd so long as there is a CC involved. It's also not a constant issue. I get desync'd sometimes but it's rare. Once a night, maybe?

Actually when I ran bow builds can in the day I desync'd way more people with snipe.

OnGodiDoDis

ninjagank wrote: »

I literally could accomplish the same thing with elemental/crushing weapon. Why don't more players use it? The animation is terrible and throws off your rotation.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a stable in gang builds. There is no other set that can replace it. It's just that good. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Caluurions isn't desyncing you. The server is. And it's a reaction to the CC out of stealth, just like every other CC in this game. You're just as likely to get desync'd from talons.

The stun on incap is not going to CC you again if you were just CC'd by the stun from sync.

The reason why the delay was added to Caluurions was to give you time to break free and defend. If you get desync'd that definitely sucks, but it's not my fault as the NB. Nerfing anything will not stop you from getting desync'd so long as there is a CC involved. It's also not a constant issue. I get desync'd sometimes but it's rare. Once a night, maybe?

Actually when I ran bow builds can in the day I desync'd way more people with snipe.

You do realize that the reason people get desync is because the ganker's end of the server sends the data to it that the target is dead before the target knows it's dead, right? This has nothing to do with CC. It's about killing a target that can do nothing about it. That's why you see people rolling and healing after they get ganked and drop dead at full health; the message that the target died arrived a little late. I wasn't talking about desync in the first place, I was talking about the unavoidable damage. Saying that "everyone gets ganked, so just live with it" is not a great response.
And people run Caluurion's over ele weapon because that skill does not work with heavy attacks, only light attacks.

DrSlaughtr

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

I literally could accomplish the same thing with elemental/crushing weapon. Why don't more players use it? The animation is terrible and throws off your rotation.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a stable in gang builds. There is no other set that can replace it. It's just that good. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Caluurions isn't desyncing you. The server is. And it's a reaction to the CC out of stealth, just like every other CC in this game. You're just as likely to get desync'd from talons.

The stun on incap is not going to CC you again if you were just CC'd by the stun from sync.

The reason why the delay was added to Caluurions was to give you time to break free and defend. If you get desync'd that definitely sucks, but it's not my fault as the NB. Nerfing anything will not stop you from getting desync'd so long as there is a CC involved. It's also not a constant issue. I get desync'd sometimes but it's rare. Once a night, maybe?

Actually when I ran bow builds can in the day I desync'd way more people with snipe.

You do realize that the reason people get desync is because the ganker's end of the server sends the data to it that the target is dead before the target knows it's dead, right? This has nothing to do with CC. It's about killing a target that can do nothing about it. That's why you see people rolling and healing after they get ganked and drop dead at full health; the message that the target died arrived a little late. I wasn't talking about desync in the first place, I was talking about the unavoidable damage. Saying that "everyone gets ganked, so just live with it" is not a great response.
And people run Caluurion's over ele weapon because that skill does not work with heavy attacks, only light attacks.

And how exactly do you think they landed 2 seconds of damage without you realizing? Because you were CC desync'd. Everything after that CC doesn't register to because the server took a dump. I know immediately if I killed someone who got desync'd because they just sit there CC'd, never breaking free.

My point is this isn't a NB or even Caluurions specific. I can desync you all day long with snipe. I can do the same with streak or talons.

Dorkener

ITT: pressing cloak, holding down LMB and spamming R is a skillful combo and should award you with 15-25k damage (depending on how "bad" your opponent's build is, obv) cause stamsorc is OP too
It's been years, crutch sets gonna crutch.

xylena_lazarow

I would love to know whether the devs are aware of this set's interaction with NB melee ganking, which completely negates both balancing drawbacks of RNG and travel time, and even stacks with other instant burst procs like Ashen Grip. They're either oblivious, or intentionally enabling one-shots? At the very least, it should be on their list of "burst procs."

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I would love to know whether the devs are aware of this set's interaction with NB melee ganking, which completely negates both balancing drawbacks of RNG and travel time, and even stacks with other instant burst procs like Ashen Grip. They're either oblivious, or intentionally enabling one-shots? At the very least, it should be on their list of "burst procs."

First it can't one shot you. First you took either LA or HA damage, plus any enchantments, status effects or poisons. Then you are hit by Caluurions.

Second I'm pretty sure they do. They've nerfed every other set we can use reliably. The list of options is short.

FrankonPC

Udrath wrote: »

It’s possible to do the same damage with the same outcome without caluuarion. Yes it is one of MANY sets that are overtuned though (look at savage werewolf). Just view ganks as a survivability check, because they go up or down every patch. You can only adjust your build and play style to survive, or just accept that you can be ganked and try to have fun.

There is a counter to a gank build and it’s having high critical resistance and a good health pool 30k or more. With rallying cry or impregnable and cp critical resistance slot you can have nearly 5k critical resistance which gives you time to dodge roll and recover. Also the vampire undeath passive helps too. Percentage mitigation helps like buffer of the swift, major protection, cp passives etc.

Use detect pots more often, after a while you sort of just feel it coming, especially if you’re flanking a group or straying away from your group. I’m pretty sure solo pvp/1vX whatever you want to call it is dead. Group up or join the gankers because ZOS seems to pushing the idea you should lose if 2 or more players are attacking you now.

This is just not true. You will get two or 3 tapped in just about any build with 30k health

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

I literally could accomplish the same thing with elemental/crushing weapon. Why don't more players use it? The animation is terrible and throws off your rotation.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a stable in gang builds. There is no other set that can replace it. It's just that good. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Caluurions isn't desyncing you. The server is. And it's a reaction to the CC out of stealth, just like every other CC in this game. You're just as likely to get desync'd from talons.

The stun on incap is not going to CC you again if you were just CC'd by the stun from sync.

The reason why the delay was added to Caluurions was to give you time to break free and defend. If you get desync'd that definitely sucks, but it's not my fault as the NB. Nerfing anything will not stop you from getting desync'd so long as there is a CC involved. It's also not a constant issue. I get desync'd sometimes but it's rare. Once a night, maybe?

Actually when I ran bow builds can in the day I desync'd way more people with snipe.

Caluurions delay is not long enough for people to break free and dodge the proc. The hit rate is extremely high after surprise attack or incap, which is why it's been a staple for melee magblades for years before the new scaling

Cuddlypuff

I think it's fantastic that ZOS makes options like Caluurions Oakenblades for the tiny amount of 1vXers still playing Cyrodiil. Unfortunately people see this amazing 1vX build and decide to run it inside zergs and 12 man gank squads vs solos/duos instead. Common sense dictates that if your build can farm kills with less people, you'd actively avoid zerging to maximize fun/challenge & AP. At this point is more of a people issue than a build issue.

xylena_lazarow

ninjagank wrote: »

First it can't one shot you.

If they execute properly and get lucky with successive crits, they're dumping over 30k damage against real PvP builds before your break free animation finishes, about half of which is procs, the exact scenario ZOS stated they want to avoid when they made a list of "burst procs" that are supposed to delay any other procs on the list by 2sec. Not a literal one-shot but there will be literally no window to respond in many cases.

Yes it takes skill and can be used to win outnumbered, but is constantly fending off random invisible 30k bursts in any large fight good PvP? I usually enjoy fighting NBs but it's getting exhausting, and so are these threads...

Vakiri

Damn you think this set came from the murkmire procalypse xD I don't understand why this set got a pass, when they previously nerfed viper, Selene, velidreth, widowmaker etc. Instadamage caused alot of problems in the past, I wouldn't mind it getting the viper treatment into a powerful dot.

Firstmep

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

I literally could accomplish the same thing with elemental/crushing weapon. Why don't more players use it? The animation is terrible and throws off your rotation.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

This set synchronizes too well with the Shadowy Disguise skill. Using said skill guarantees a critical hit on the next attack, proc'ing Caluurion's. This set does not have a %chance to proc, it is a guaranteed 10k+ extra damage on a light attack. However, this damage is not instant. When proc sets were reworked, they added a 1 second delay from the moment it procs to the second it deals damage. This allows for nightblades to stack the damage from the set with other skills, such as concealed /surprise or incap. This is where the problem gets even worse. Concealed and incap are both morphs that stun the target. Pair this with the proc set damage and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in an instant. Changes were made to proc sets in order to reduce burst...how? The burst is still there, it's just delayed 1 second. Caluurion's is a stable in gang builds. There is no other set that can replace it. It's just that good. What can we do to reduce the power of this set without nerfing it to the ground? We can make this set proc off direct damage skills, not abilities, because abilities include light and heavy attacks. If I'm ganking someone and I light attack them and follow up with a concealed, Caluurion's will proc after the target is stunned, not during the stun. The only way for me to get the set to proc simultaneously with a stun would be to use a skill before I stun the target, giving said target a fighting chance to at least block or roll. As it is, gankblades are the most powerful single target burst builds in pvp. When you have 2 or more of them ganking the same target, it's a death sentence. Every other class has some telecast on their abilities, nightblades approach you from stealth and, in one second, you're on the floor. This type of gameplay is lazy design. It requires absolutely no skill other than concealed or incap (pun intended). I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm only addressing the problem here which is Caluurion's.

Caluurions isn't desyncing you. The server is. And it's a reaction to the CC out of stealth, just like every other CC in this game. You're just as likely to get desync'd from talons.

The stun on incap is not going to CC you again if you were just CC'd by the stun from sync.

The reason why the delay was added to Caluurions was to give you time to break free and defend. If you get desync'd that definitely sucks, but it's not my fault as the NB. Nerfing anything will not stop you from getting desync'd so long as there is a CC involved. It's also not a constant issue. I get desync'd sometimes but it's rare. Once a night, maybe?

Actually when I ran bow builds can in the day I desync'd way more people with snipe.

Caluurions delay is not long enough for people to break free and dodge the proc. The hit rate is extremely high after surprise attack or incap, which is why it's been a staple for melee magblades for years before the new scaling

This. I used to run that on magblade in ic and it was freaking hilarious.
Now its twice as bad since permarollimg nightblades also have a spammable burst heal, damage metas also generally favor them hugely.
In al fairness every class have sets that synergize well with their toolkit, but caluu on nb is a bit over the top.
I still think ganking should never be this powerful no matter what.

WreckfulAbandon

Firstmep wrote: »

This. I used to run that on magblade in ic and it was freaking hilarious.
Now its twice as bad since permarollimg nightblades also have a spammable burst heal, damage metas also generally favor them hugely.
In al fairness every class have sets that synergize well with their toolkit, but caluu on nb is a bit over the top.
I still think ganking should never be this powerful no matter what.

The melee ganks are out of control these days. This is a common opinion from many experienced players and streamers, and its a bit embarrasing for some to admit still since it used to be basically impossible to get 100-0 ganked on a balanced PvP build.

Cuddlypuff

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

This. I used to run that on magblade in ic and it was freaking hilarious.
Now its twice as bad since permarollimg nightblades also have a spammable burst heal, damage metas also generally favor them hugely.
In al fairness every class have sets that synergize well with their toolkit, but caluu on nb is a bit over the top.
I still think ganking should never be this powerful no matter what.

The melee ganks are out of control these days. This is a common opinion from many experienced players and streamers, and its a bit embarrasing for some to admit still since it used to be basically impossible to get 100-0 ganked on a balanced PvP build.

Not really it's just that meta chasers tend to be slightly above average players and now they are running either oaken gankers or savage werewolf bowsorcs. Broken builds will always seem that little bit more broken just because the average player skill level of that build is raised.

Dojohoda

The only thing about Caluurion's Legacy that needs adjusting is the volume of Molag's laughter. It needs to be louder.

xylena_lazarow

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

oaken gankers or savage werewolf bowsorcs. Broken builds will always seem that little bit more broken just because the average player skill level of that build is raised.

It's a matter of gameplay patterns more than skill. Both of these hit for huge damage from nowhere. Range and stealth can both be hard to interact with. They are effective at creating one-sided fights that feel unfair to the target. The Sorcs can't instakill though, and Savage Werewolf can be swapped for similar procs. Caluurion's is uniquely powerful for NB.

WreckfulAbandon

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Not really it's just that meta chasers tend to be slightly above average players and now they are running either oaken gankers or savage werewolf bowsorcs. Broken builds will always seem that little bit more broken just because the average player skill level of that build is raised.

Alright well you did use the term "broken builds" so I guess were not really disagreeing here

OnGodiDoDis

I would like to add that the reason that stamblades don't run ele weapon instead is because they can heavy attack with Caluurion's, giving them the 10% bonus on the next attack: incap or concealed. Ele weapon only works with light attacks. Combine the heavy attack with empowered and the Weapon's Expert star and you get an hp bar to go from 100-0 in a second. I don't think that making the set work only with light attacks will work because it is still delayed damage. It's true that some sets have a favortie class, but Caluurion's is the only set that deals damage instantly. Other synergizing examples are magDK and BSW, stamDK and Plaguebreak, templar and scathing mage/war maiden. All these sets except PB increase the user's damage rather than deal damage for them. PB is basically an unpurgeable DoT (most people just don't bother purging it because it deals more damage), but the set's burst damage is hard to time with other burst skills. This set is balanced; it has a counter (purge). Caluurion's is balanced as well. Non NB classes can proc this too. The frequency depends on their crit chance. Nightblade is the only class that can abuse this set's proc conditions. So this leaves the question: why was Draugrkin's Grip nerfed and this set was left untouched? The developers themselves said that DG was adjusted because it provided (this is from their own mouths) "too much single-target pressure".....

SOLDIER_1stClass

Bruh... as a NB Caluurions and Vamp are carring the class and I'd gladly accept a nerf to it IF and only IF they increase NB damage.

I don't use it but understand why others do.

Because as it stands the class both mag and stam are in the gutter.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

And how exactly do you think they landed 2 seconds of damage without you realizing? Because you were CC desync'd. Everything after that CC doesn't register to because the server took a dump. I know immediately if I killed someone who got desync'd because they just sit there CC'd, never breaking free.

My point is this isn't a NB or even Caluurions specific. I can desync you all day long with snipe. I can do the same with streak or talons.[/quote]

NO, they land 3 seconds worth of damage in '2' second because its actually 3 seconds... I heavy attack dual wield( shows two attacks) and animation cancel with incap, light attack, concealed weaponlight spin and proc damage of set+ encahnts. you are going about your business and at 0 seconds for your I already would up full heavy ani cancled ult, then finish combo. your 2 seconds is my 3 seconds, you just didnt see the nightblade wind up. anyone without huge health or huge defence is instantly dead before they break free because that much damage happened.

if you have no stamina you cant break free! saying eveyone who cant break free is dsynced makes zero sense! its a real problem for magica builds; they run out of stam and have to find ways to manage/mitigate that.