Heavy attacking is insane this patch

Cactus_Back

Kinda surprised nobody's been talking about it. Or maybe I missed it?

I usually cut ZOS a lot of slack when it comes to balancing this game. I get it, it's hard to balance an MMO for both PvE and PvP while also trying to come up with new ideas for a gazillion new sets they keep releasing every year (one would have to ask why they absolutely have to release so many new sets but oh well, that's a totally different question).

Heavy attacks hitting for 30K from stealth now is what I absolutely don't get at all. How is that allowed? Like, this is stronger than siege and ultis, which is absolutely insane.

I'm not even a glass cannon. I have 5 pieces of heavy armor on and decent resistance.

Am I the only one triggered by this?

EdmondDontes

I was unbuffed and standing on a wall yesterday and got hit with a 36k heavy attack from a stealthed NB. This is one of the reasons Oakensoul needs a nerf sooner rather than later.

xylena_lazarow

EdmondDontes wrote: »

I was unbuffed and standing on a wall yesterday and got hit with a 36k heavy attack from a stealthed NB. This is one of the reasons Oakensoul needs a nerf sooner rather than later.

They've been doing it without Oakensoul for several months now, but Oakensoul was a big buff to the build and why it's suddenly so popular. Maybe ZOS will finally notice, they've always nerfed instakills in the past.

Aixy

This patch is a gank paradise (heavy attack builds are stronger now)

MidniteOwl1913

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

FENGRUSH

This has made cyro extremely unenjoyable. I'm done going there actually with all the heavies from stealth.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

Where did you hear this? I think heavy attacks are naturally scaling up and they weren't intentionally designed to so PVE players can hit for 100k in one attack.

EdmondDontes

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This has made cyro extremely unenjoyable. I'm done going there actually with all the heavies from stealth.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

Where did you hear this? I think heavy attacks are naturally scaling up and they weren't intentionally designed to so PVE players can hit for 100k in one attack.

It seems like ZOS has totally given up on any kind of balance in cyro to me. ...like gave up a year plus ago and we are seeing the snowballing effects of all the neglect.

CameraBeardThePirate

EdmondDontes wrote: »

I was unbuffed and standing on a wall yesterday and got hit with a 36k heavy attack from a stealthed NB. This is one of the reasons Oakensoul needs a nerf sooner rather than later.

The thing is, these heavy attack gank specs are NOT because of Oakensoul. It's because of the combination of Corrosive, Molten Armaments, Empower, and Storm Master's. For some reason, when nerfing all the other heavy attack sets, ZOS failed to nerf Storm Master. These 1 shot heavy builds have existed for at least 3 patches at this point. Oakensoul has just exasperated the problem. Nerfing oakensoul would help, but it won't get rid of these heavy attack builds.

If ZOS wants to actually nerf these builds, they need to take a look at one of the things I listed above, and ideally they need to nerf Storm Master's like they did all the other heavy attack sets.

FannyWarden

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

I was unbuffed and standing on a wall yesterday and got hit with a 36k heavy attack from a stealthed NB. This is one of the reasons Oakensoul needs a nerf sooner rather than later.

The thing is, these heavy attack gank specs are NOT because of Oakensoul. It's because of the combination of Corrosive, Molten Armaments, Empower, and Storm Master's. For some reason, when nerfing all the other heavy attack sets, ZOS failed to nerf Storm Master. These 1 shot heavy builds have existed for at least 3 patches at this point. Oakensoul has just exasperated the problem. Nerfing oakensoul would help, but it won't get rid of these heavy attack builds.

If ZOS wants to actually nerf these builds, they need to take a look at one of the things I listed above, and ideally they need to nerf Storm Master's like they did all the other heavy attack sets.

So to use storm master to gank from stealth, you would need to find a target then do a fully charged heavy attack and hope it crits then get back into stealth, find another target (or the same target if you were able run away and disappear) and position yourself to gank within the next 20 secs, buff up then heavy attack again. Is that how it works?

FannyWarden

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This has made cyro extremely unenjoyable. I'm done going there actually with all the heavies from stealth.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

Where did you hear this? I think heavy attacks are naturally scaling up and they weren't intentionally designed to so PVE players can hit for 100k in one attack.

Same here. The heavies from stealth, the constant DC bombs, occult overload and resurgence of ball groups (we had 3 in one keep a few nights ago taking turns farming) have made me put Cyro on pause. I tried BGs but gave up after 30 min in queue.

fred4

Cactus_Back wrote: »

Kinda surprised nobody's been talking about it. Or maybe I missed it?

I did: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/600389/zos-why-did-you-do-it-heavy-attack-one-shot-builds/p1

I'm not even a glass cannon. I have 5 pieces of heavy armor on and decent resistance.

Heavy armor can actually work against you. A Corrosive DK doesn't care about your armor, except for heavy armor having a built-in weakness to magical attacks. It's beneficial to wear light armor against a flame heavy from a Corrosive DK. The logic, I suppose, is that heavy armor is not heavy armor in a literal sense, but everything is rock/paper/scissors balanced. Heavy was OP in PvP for a long time. The last rebalance introduced those built-in armor strengths and weaknesses you can't turn on or off. I've given up on trying to justify things like this, or at least on trying to infer from reality what an armor type should do.

Am I the only one triggered by this?

I was when I wrote my post, but I find there can be days where you run into nothing but extreme one shot builds or where your own build is specifically hard-countered by something else, and most days it's not. To come clean, I am a perma-cloaking (melee) magblade main. Sometimes I play other classes, sometimes only my magblade. I'm not much affected on my main. That's why I personally didn't pursue this any further, but I was also suprised by the lacklustre response to my thread.

Lightning heavy attack builds have been a thing for a long time. Flame heavy attack builds are new (if you discount DKs doing this many years ago). Flame heavy attack builds are IMO worse, because they result in true 1 GCD one shots, rather than being channeled. I believe Sergeant's Mail is actually the main culprit, but there are others. Most heavy attack sets were changed back when I wrote my post. I've heard about people using Storm Master, but that set and Infallible Mage are actually the two sets that haven't been changed and that are still good for lightning heavy attack builds.

fred4

Cactus_Back wrote: »

I'm not even a glass cannon. I have 5 pieces of heavy armor on and decent resistance.

fred4 wrote: »

Heavy armor can actually work against you.

In terms of buildcraft, the most effective (balanced) way to build tanky is probably to mix heavy and light in equal proportion or to use sets like Trial by Fire or Aetherial Ascenscion in medium. Non-resistance-based mitigation also comes to mind, the combination of Sea Serpent and Ironblood in particular. I think Else has a point in how he's building his tanky nightblade, how Sea Serpent is gank protection and the snare isn't as bad as it seems, since it comes and goes at the "right" time, making the set play decently well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cwUl23W4mw

BlakMarket

They need to cap heavy attacks when battle spirit is active to 10k max, pvp should be about countering play style's, there is no counter to being 1 shot for 30-40k from range.

This patch is miserable for solo pvp between oakenganks and 1 shot builds, it aint fun. Don't know why ZOS decided to nerf defensive cp, then add such a broken mythic.

CaperGuy

I do like the ability to get some kills if you’re solo defending a Keep against some super tanked up players that can even just heal through oils so that you can get a D-Tick. In my head the idea of a prepared battlemage up on the ramparts raining fire should hurt. A lot. And the tradeoff really is that if you catch me close quarters then I’m probably toast unless I can invis pot out of there while you have no detect pot or reveal skills.

It does require a fair amount of setup to get right, as well as some positioning and managing sneak or mist form to get the most out of it.

I still wanna see some of these folks reflect my heavy attacks back at me though with defensive posture or the s&b ult ( although I suppose if my Corrosive is up that wouldn’t hurt much).

Cactus_Back

fred4 wrote: »

Heavy armor can actually work against you. A Corrosive DK doesn't care about your armor, except for heavy armor having a built-in weakness to magical attacks. It's beneficial to wear light armor against a flame heavy from a Corrosive DK. The logic, I suppose, is that heavy armor is not heavy armor in a literal sense, but everything is rock/paper/scissors balanced. Heavy was OP in PvP for a long time. The last rebalance introduced those built-in armor strengths and weaknesses you can't turn on or off. I've given up on trying to justify things like this, or at least on trying to infer from reality what an armor type should do.

That's a good point, I didn't think of that. Not sure if I'll be tweaking my build just to combat this HA nonsense (thankfully I still encounter it only rarely) but we'll see, maybe I'll have to if ZOS don't do anything about it next patch and more people keep using it.

sharquez

Alrighty ye salty dogs, who keep getting 1shot by heavies time to come clean, What are you wearing?

Holycannoli

Cactus_Back wrote: »

Kinda surprised nobody's been talking about it. Or maybe I missed it?

I usually cut ZOS a lot of slack when it comes to balancing this game. I get it, it's hard to balance an MMO for both PvE and PvP while also trying to come up with new ideas for a gazillion new sets they keep releasing every year (one would have to ask why they absolutely have to release so many new sets but oh well, that's a totally different question).

Heavy attacks hitting for 30K from stealth now is what I absolutely don't get at all. How is that allowed? Like, this is stronger than siege and ultis, which is absolutely insane.

I'm not even a glass cannon. I have 5 pieces of heavy armor on and decent resistance.

Am I the only one triggered by this?

No you're not the only one, and with the lag in Cyrodiil I often don't actually get hit and die from the OP heavy attack until I'm safely around a corner or out of sight.

That kind of damage, even with a crit, should only be happening with certain ultis. Not a skill and certainly not a heavy attack.

In my opinion.

I also think Corrosive Armor needs a total revamp, and yes I do have a DK that uses it. It should be a mostly defensive ultimate, lowering the resistances of anyone hitting you with a melee attack, not ignoring resistances for your own attacks. It's Corrosive Armor not Corrosive Weapon. Or just get rid of that whole mechanic entirely and leave it with incoming damage reduction and an AOE DoT. That's all it needs.

xylena_lazarow

sharquez wrote: »

Alrighty ye salty dogs, who keep getting 1shot by heavies time to come clean, What are you wearing?

Optimized survivable damage builds will still take over 35k from an optimized inferno heavy gank. If the only "counterplay" is constant preemptive detect attempts or being a high hp low damage brick tank, there's a problem. Some of them are on less optimized versions that hit for around 25k, which is survivable on an average build, but still obnoxious.

Holycannoli

Possibly the Sea-Serpent's Coil is a good counter vs the one-shot inferno gank, but it does leave you vulnerable after mitigating that initial hit.

Would you want to devote your mythic slot to an item designed mainly to counter one-shot ganks? Or would you rather use something like Oakensoul that benefits you overall but leaves you vulnerable to one-shot ganks?

xylena_lazarow

Holycannoli wrote: »

Possibly the Sea-Serpent's Coil

The 40% slow is a huge liability against everything else though, including Caluurion's gankblades that land multiple successive big hits while you're still in the break free animation. Really wish they'd remove that drawback entirely, that would make it a legitimate competitor to Oakensoul and a better band-aid on the inferno gank thing.

EdmondDontes

Holycannoli wrote: »

Possibly the Sea-Serpent's Coil is a good counter vs the one-shot inferno gank, but it does leave you vulnerable after mitigating that initial hit.

Would you want to devote your mythic slot to an item designed mainly to counter one-shot ganks? Or would you rather use something like Oakensoul that benefits you overall but leaves you vulnerable to one-shot ganks?

Oaken also gives major defensive buffs. There is no buff Oaken doesn't give I don't think. So it also helps against the one shot gankers.

Holycannoli

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Possibly the Sea-Serpent's Coil is a good counter vs the one-shot inferno gank, but it does leave you vulnerable after mitigating that initial hit.

Would you want to devote your mythic slot to an item designed mainly to counter one-shot ganks? Or would you rather use something like Oakensoul that benefits you overall but leaves you vulnerable to one-shot ganks?

Oaken also gives major defensive buffs. There is no buff Oaken doesn't give I don't think. So it also helps against the one shot gankers.

Oaken doesn't mitigate 40% of the damage when at full health though.

And I'm not convinced the Sea-Serpent's Coil is a mythic worth using, I'm just pointing out that it is potentially useful.

I do think the 40% snare is a worse drawback than the loss of a bar. I won't be using it myself. Don't think many will.

The issue is Corrosive Armor IMO, and again I have a DK that uses it. It's too strong.

Ranger209

What builds out there are pulling off 35k heavies besides Corrosive rolling DK's?

CameraBeardThePirate

FannyWarden wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

I was unbuffed and standing on a wall yesterday and got hit with a 36k heavy attack from a stealthed NB. This is one of the reasons Oakensoul needs a nerf sooner rather than later.

The thing is, these heavy attack gank specs are NOT because of Oakensoul. It's because of the combination of Corrosive, Molten Armaments, Empower, and Storm Master's. For some reason, when nerfing all the other heavy attack sets, ZOS failed to nerf Storm Master. These 1 shot heavy builds have existed for at least 3 patches at this point. Oakensoul has just exasperated the problem. Nerfing oakensoul would help, but it won't get rid of these heavy attack builds.

If ZOS wants to actually nerf these builds, they need to take a look at one of the things I listed above, and ideally they need to nerf Storm Master's like they did all the other heavy attack sets.

So to use storm master to gank from stealth, you would need to find a target then do a fully charged heavy attack and hope it crits then get back into stealth, find another target (or the same target if you were able run away and disappear) and position yourself to gank within the next 20 secs, buff up then heavy attack again. Is that how it works?

No. The damage bonus applies to the heavy attack that procs it. So long as you crit with the initial heavy, you'll get the damage bonus.

xStaticx

No. The damage bonus applies to the heavy attack that procs it. So long as you crit with the initial heavy, you'll get the damage bonus.[/quote]

Unless it is somehow different on PC , it doesn't work like that on console. If I do a fully charged heavy and it crits, the damage number that is displayed is not increased by Storm Master. Not until the next heavy does it show an increase in damage.

Works the same basic way as the Nobel Duelist set. Heavy attack damage in melee range procs the set but the initial heavy damage is not empowered by the set until the next one.

Evo444

xStaticx wrote: »

Unless it is somehow different on PC , it doesn't work like that on console. If I do a fully charged heavy and it crits, the damage number that is displayed is not increased by Storm Master. Not until the next heavy does it show an increase in damage.

Works the same basic way as the Nobel Duelist set. Heavy attack damage in melee range procs the set but the initial heavy damage is not empowered by the set until the next one.

For PC, Storm master (and last I checked Night Mother Gaze) buffs the attack that procs it. While Noble Duelist buffs the follow up attacks. That's weird it's different on console if what you're saying is true.

Ranger209 wrote: »

What builds out there are pulling off 35k heavies besides Corrosive rolling DK's?

From stealth by yourself being the last thing the victim never sees? Most likely none against the average pvp'er, but with a duo partner you could have them apply off balance, minor vulnerability, etc. and still get a big number without having corrosive or being non-dk without molten.

By yourself but out of stealth/duelist-y build? You can be a NB that applies all the debuffs/buffs in the world then heavy attack into cloak for guaranteed crit as empowered is taken care of from ambush and off balance from surprise attack or Dswing. Or you can gamble the crit for heavy into merciless resolve. You would also take advantage of the new off balance blue perk for 10% dmg and the redone Riposte perk for 33% more dmg on next attack after a block.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This has made cyro extremely unenjoyable. I'm done going there actually with all the heavies from stealth.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

Where did you hear this? I think heavy attacks are naturally scaling up and they weren't intentionally designed to so PVE players can hit for 100k in one attack.

A Pve'er using a heavy attack dk inferno build for single target on the normal skeleton dummy can get ~low30k-high30k dps but that's if they can crouch into stealth for every heavy attack to hit above 100k, If they can't crouch each one it's around ~high 10k-low20kdps(I had someone taunt the dummy when I tested so I can crouch every one, also tested it during waking flame I think?).
Unfortunately it's also ~low40k-mid40k for the trial dummy as the crit damage buffs are useless to one that crouches each heavy because of the stealth crit bonus bringing you to crit cap, and it's also bad if the boss summons minions that would lock onto dps as that ruins the stealth crits.
I don't know how much damage the inferno heavy attack builds that don't utilize crouch are for pve. Same with lightning heavy attack builds for pve.

Cactus_Back wrote: »

I'm not even a glass cannon. I have 5 pieces of heavy armor on and decent resistance.

Resists is ignored by corrosive, and heavy armor, while giving you 2% max hp per piece, it's also giving you 1% more magical dmg for every piece.
I know for Ravenwatch, the best defense set against this would be Buffer of the swift, maybe plague doctor's all lines of hp could be good too?
For the champion campaigns, Sea Serpents would prevent this. The less Single Target, less Direct damage and 10% less crit dmg blue perk would help. For a 5pc set, Sentry set is really underrated. Would be easy for just 1 person in a large group to run it. Unfortunately it's bugged right now, NB's that repeatedly cast cloak can avoid heavy attacks and I'd guess other ranged attacks too even though you still see them because of the set.

That being said, if you were fighting a trio of people then a heavy attacker joined in with heavy attacks that were hitting for far less than your max hp because they maybe didn't have ult at the time, you died while outnumbered and I don't think the build should receive scrutiny for it. Usually when someone is outnumbered in the open field, the outnumbered person dies.
If you died by 1 heavy attacker alone, they most likely had the assistance of an Ult(Corrosive) or you had practically nothing in defense. Usually when the attacker builds with only damage, nothing for defense or survivability, and uses an ult, the victim dies.

duckdown

30k heavy attack from a magdk. Realy dumbshiit ever happen to this game.

EdmondDontes

When a single heavy attack does twice the damage a cold fire siege does....something is WILDLY out of balance. Wildly out of balance.

ShadowProc

They melt in one shot. They kill in one shot. Seems balanced to me. They help take down those damn tanks that can’t die.

xDeusEJRx

I ran into a group of like 4 different heavy attack gank nightblades last night. They all heavy attack me out of stealth while I'm fighting 6 other people. Most of these heavy attack builds I come across are just used to zerg people down harder than already are. lol

xDeusEJRx

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

They made this to help people with disabilities in PVE. Maybe it will get nerfed because of PVP, but that won't be a popular move.

If what you're referring to was oakensoul. No it was not. I'm not sure why people think oakensoul was made to help people with disabilities. If it was an "accessibility" item as people claim it is, they wouldn't put it behind a paywall and egregious lead grind to get it. Not really "accessible" in that case is it.

It's just an OP mythic meant to sell a chapter, nothing more, nothing less.