ESO PVP R.I.P. 2014-2022

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

Vakiri

I mean, assuming your not playing outside of America. Some things are alot harder to avoid with 400+ ping in cyrodiil

Cuddlypuff

I'm all for ganking and low/zero TTK meta but the current Cyrodiil ecosystem is way too unhealthy to support it properly. Ganking just punishes solos/unorganised players and does nothing to hinder group play, which also punishes solos/unorganised players. This creates a scenario where there's too many farmers and not enough farmees, so farming groups spread all around the map trying to bait out a fight. Before the bowsorc/oakenblade meta, groups were kept in check and could still be farmed by bombers. This led to a somewhat sustainable ecosystem, albeit one where few playstyles were viable.

Nowadays the bombers have to not only deal with the ball group Xv1 but survive multiple gank attacks on the way in (since gankers and ball zergs have to converge due to a lack of farmees). Bombers also sacrifice all their survivability and single target abilities for burst aoe damage, so it's not really possible to compromise and handle both gankers and groups equally. When ball zergs are protected by lag and gankers, there really is no counterplay whatsoever and open world PVP dies.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

I am well aware of this mechanic.

So if I am cloaked and I hit you, you are stunned. You have 1 full second to break free and block/dodge to avoid caluurions and/or ultimate. You should take advantage of this. It takes less than a second to do both. If you get desynced and can't break free, well that's on the server and you're likely gonna die regardless.

On top of you being told to break free and block/dodge because I CC'd you, Selene's summons a giant green bear that says DODGE ME which takes 1.3 seconds to hit, giving you even more time to avoid that damage.

It isn't unavoidable and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. I dodge those stupid bears all night long and then punish the wearer for wasting the mats golding that out.

DrSlaughtr

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I'm all for ganking and low/zero TTK meta but the current Cyrodiil ecosystem is way too unhealthy to support it properly. Ganking just punishes solos/unorganised players and does nothing to hinder group play, which also punishes solos/unorganised players. This creates a scenario where there's too many farmers and not enough farmees, so farming groups spread all around the map trying to bait out a fight. Before the bowsorc/oakenblade meta, groups were kept in check and could still be farmed by bombers. This led to a somewhat sustainable ecosystem, albeit one where few playstyles were viable.

Nowadays the bombers have to not only deal with the ball group Xv1 but survive multiple gank attacks on the way in (since gankers and ball zergs have to converge due to a lack of farmees). Bombers also sacrifice all their survivability and single target abilities for burst aoe damage, so it's not really possible to compromise and handle both gankers and groups equally. When ball zergs are protected by lag and gankers, there really is no counterplay whatsoever and open world PVP dies.

Well, let me say something that won't be very popular.

Cyrodiil is a warzone and there are no rules. If you run solo, you assume the risks that you are probably going to get killed a lot and have no support. You might not even get rezzed as other "friendlies" run past you to get a tick. This is the way of the world. If you wanna run alone, you face a harder road than if you group up, whether it be small scale or bigger.

When I am on the battlefield, I don't have a magic marker that tells me who is solo and who is in a group. I attack what is in front of me and who would be the most strategic person. For example, if I know Player A is a worldbeater and can completely disrupt the battle, that is who I am going for.

I run solo plenty of times and it's frustrating because it can feel very much like you're getting the bad end of a stick, but the other players running me down have no idea whether I'm alone or not. They don't care. They see a NB, flare me or reveal me, and do everything they can to murder me.

If I go try to defend a keep and I'm all by my lonesome, it can be very annoying that I just got ran down by x number of players and no one from my faction showed up to help me.

But again, this is expected because I am alone. I am going to be out numbered and it's going to suck.

So back to your point.

Are you suggesting that NBs do not target people in a group? Because that's not true at all. Like I said, I have no way of knowing who is in a group or not, and it's not usually obvious because people run all over the place, group or no group. I run onto the dance floor many times and start fighting people that I would assume are grouped up.

The game isn't balanced for solo players because that is not possible. If you walk the lonely road, it's gonna be a harder journey.

Cuddlypuff

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I'm all for ganking and low/zero TTK meta but the current Cyrodiil ecosystem is way too unhealthy to support it properly. Ganking just punishes solos/unorganised players and does nothing to hinder group play, which also punishes solos/unorganised players. This creates a scenario where there's too many farmers and not enough farmees, so farming groups spread all around the map trying to bait out a fight. Before the bowsorc/oakenblade meta, groups were kept in check and could still be farmed by bombers. This led to a somewhat sustainable ecosystem, albeit one where few playstyles were viable.

Nowadays the bombers have to not only deal with the ball group Xv1 but survive multiple gank attacks on the way in (since gankers and ball zergs have to converge due to a lack of farmees). Bombers also sacrifice all their survivability and single target abilities for burst aoe damage, so it's not really possible to compromise and handle both gankers and groups equally. When ball zergs are protected by lag and gankers, there really is no counterplay whatsoever and open world PVP dies.

Well, let me say something that won't be very popular.

Cyrodiil is a warzone and there are no rules. If you run solo, you assume the risks that you are probably going to get killed a lot and have no support. You might not even get rezzed as other "friendlies" run past you to get a tick. This is the way of the world. If you wanna run alone, you face a harder road than if you group up, whether it be small scale or bigger.

When I am on the battlefield, I don't have a magic marker that tells me who is solo and who is in a group. I attack what is in front of me and who would be the most strategic person. For example, if I know Player A is a worldbeater and can completely disrupt the battle, that is who I am going for.

I run solo plenty of times and it's frustrating because it can feel very much like you're getting the bad end of a stick, but the other players running me down have no idea whether I'm alone or not. They don't care. They see a NB, flare me or reveal me, and do everything they can to murder me.

If I go try to defend a keep and I'm all by my lonesome, it can be very annoying that I just got ran down by x number of players and no one from my faction showed up to help me.

But again, this is expected because I am alone. I am going to be out numbered and it's going to suck.

So back to your point.

Are you suggesting that NBs do not target people in a group? Because that's not true at all. Like I said, I have no way of knowing who is in a group or not, and it's not usually obvious because people run all over the place, group or no group. I run onto the dance floor many times and start fighting people that I would assume are grouped up.

The game isn't balanced for solo players because that is not possible. If you walk the lonely road, it's gonna be a harder journey.

I was more referring to the sustainability of "active pvp" in Cyrodiil. Let me give you an example of any typical timeslot in Gray Host from a bomber's perspective.
1. The other faction's zerglings are held at bay in one or more of their inner keeps by your faction's farming groups / ball zergs. They are for all intents and purposes out of the picture until the farming groups log off.
2. You then attempt to cut resources at a ring keep to fish out some zerglings that had enough of getting farmed at the inner keep. However these RSS are now a playground for some small scale sweaties that you have to deal with first. And no you can't just bomb over both enemy factions fighting as the sweats will just run into the tower and the zerg cluster won't form organically.
3. You rush over to defend a PvDoor only to find that it consists of 2-3 conjoined ball zergs with 0 defenders from your faction (because they too, are being farmed in your inner keeps). Let's assume you pull off a mediocre 6 man bomb through all the ganks, negates, stuns, hots, healing ultis and dcons. By the time you get a 2nd ulti, the PvDoor zerg is already on flags or repping. 90% of cases, you won't even have time to receive the juicy D-Tick from the first bomb as the keep flips within 90 seconds from start of siege.
4. The map will be entirely dead for another 30 min so you decide to check up on the enemy ball groups farming your inner keeps. You'll die to a few VD because your faction has some clueless 17k hp players chasing (probably just a cross-faction friend of the group helping out). After 5 mins of running around the top level, you clear them out and they just camp right back once the defenders leave.
5. 80% of your bombs end up happening at enemy faction keep/outpost fights, which makes for a seriously dull horse-riding simulator with the distances involved.

Long story short, the ecosystem is broken. Zerglings are completely useless and controlled in inner keeps by farm groups (or logged off altogether). Small scalers are now bottom feeding around resources for scraps and the only sieges happen when zerglings build enough of a faction stack to steamroll an objective. Ganking a bomber that is about to take out a large chunk of the ball zerg is not the way to help keep Cyrodiil alive.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

I am well aware of this mechanic.

So if I am cloaked and I hit you, you are stunned. You have 1 full second to break free and block/dodge to avoid caluurions and/or ultimate. You should take advantage of this. It takes less than a second to do both. If you get desynced and can't break free, well that's on the server and you're likely gonna die regardless.

On top of you being told to break free and block/dodge because I CC'd you, Selene's summons a giant green bear that says DODGE ME which takes 1.3 seconds to hit, giving you even more time to avoid that damage.

It isn't unavoidable and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. I dodge those stupid bears all night long and then punish the wearer for wasting the mats golding that out.

Lol you don't have 1 full second, heavy and incap happens in the same GCD, with 0.4s interval.

neferpitou73

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I'm all for ganking and low/zero TTK meta but the current Cyrodiil ecosystem is way too unhealthy to support it properly. Ganking just punishes solos/unorganised players and does nothing to hinder group play, which also punishes solos/unorganised players. This creates a scenario where there's too many farmers and not enough farmees, so farming groups spread all around the map trying to bait out a fight. Before the bowsorc/oakenblade meta, groups were kept in check and could still be farmed by bombers. This led to a somewhat sustainable ecosystem, albeit one where few playstyles were viable.

Nowadays the bombers have to not only deal with the ball group Xv1 but survive multiple gank attacks on the way in (since gankers and ball zergs have to converge due to a lack of farmees). Bombers also sacrifice all their survivability and single target abilities for burst aoe damage, so it's not really possible to compromise and handle both gankers and groups equally. When ball zergs are protected by lag and gankers, there really is no counterplay whatsoever and open world PVP dies.

Well, let me say something that won't be very popular.

Cyrodiil is a warzone and there are no rules. If you run solo, you assume the risks that you are probably going to get killed a lot and have no support. You might not even get rezzed as other "friendlies" run past you to get a tick. This is the way of the world. If you wanna run alone, you face a harder road than if you group up, whether it be small scale or bigger.

When I am on the battlefield, I don't have a magic marker that tells me who is solo and who is in a group. I attack what is in front of me and who would be the most strategic person. For example, if I know Player A is a worldbeater and can completely disrupt the battle, that is who I am going for.

I run solo plenty of times and it's frustrating because it can feel very much like you're getting the bad end of a stick, but the other players running me down have no idea whether I'm alone or not. They don't care. They see a NB, flare me or reveal me, and do everything they can to murder me.

If I go try to defend a keep and I'm all by my lonesome, it can be very annoying that I just got ran down by x number of players and no one from my faction showed up to help me.

But again, this is expected because I am alone. I am going to be out numbered and it's going to suck.

So back to your point.

Are you suggesting that NBs do not target people in a group? Because that's not true at all. Like I said, I have no way of knowing who is in a group or not, and it's not usually obvious because people run all over the place, group or no group. I run onto the dance floor many times and start fighting people that I would assume are grouped up.

The game isn't balanced for solo players because that is not possible. If you walk the lonely road, it's gonna be a harder journey.

I was more referring to the sustainability of "active pvp" in Cyrodiil. Let me give you an example of any typical timeslot in Gray Host from a bomber's perspective.
1. The other faction's zerglings are held at bay in one or more of their inner keeps by your faction's farming groups / ball zergs. They are for all intents and purposes out of the picture until the farming groups log off.
2. You then attempt to cut resources at a ring keep to fish out some zerglings that had enough of getting farmed at the inner keep. However these RSS are now a playground for some small scale sweaties that you have to deal with first. And no you can't just bomb over both enemy factions fighting as the sweats will just run into the tower and the zerg cluster won't form organically.
3. You rush over to defend a PvDoor only to find that it consists of 2-3 conjoined ball zergs with 0 defenders from your faction (because they too, are being farmed in your inner keeps). Let's assume you pull off a mediocre 6 man bomb through all the ganks, negates, stuns, hots, healing ultis and dcons. By the time you get a 2nd ulti, the PvDoor zerg is already on flags or repping. 90% of cases, you won't even have time to receive the juicy D-Tick from the first bomb as the keep flips within 90 seconds from start of siege.
4. The map will be entirely dead for another 30 min so you decide to check up on the enemy ball groups farming your inner keeps. You'll die to a few VD because your faction has some clueless 17k hp players chasing (probably just a cross-faction friend of the group helping out). After 5 mins of running around the top level, you clear them out and they just camp right back once the defenders leave.
5. 80% of your bombs end up happening at enemy faction keep/outpost fights, which makes for a seriously dull horse-riding simulator with the distances involved.

Long story short, the ecosystem is broken. Zerglings are completely useless and controlled in inner keeps by farm groups (or logged off altogether). Small scalers are now bottom feeding around resources for scraps and the only sieges happen when zerglings build enough of a faction stack to steamroll an objective. Ganking a bomber that is about to take out a large chunk of the ball zerg is not the way to help keep Cyrodiil alive.

Speaking from experience of group bombing and being group bombed there's enough clueless players in Cyrodiil that you wouldn't need to plant them on an enemy faction.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

I am well aware of this mechanic.

So if I am cloaked and I hit you, you are stunned. You have 1 full second to break free and block/dodge to avoid caluurions and/or ultimate. You should take advantage of this. It takes less than a second to do both. If you get desynced and can't break free, well that's on the server and you're likely gonna die regardless.

On top of you being told to break free and block/dodge because I CC'd you, Selene's summons a giant green bear that says DODGE ME which takes 1.3 seconds to hit, giving you even more time to avoid that damage.

It isn't unavoidable and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. I dodge those stupid bears all night long and then punish the wearer for wasting the mats golding that out.

Lol you don't have 1 full second, heavy and incap happens in the same GCD, with 0.4s interval.

lol we were talking about caluurions and selenes, not soul harvest or incap. If you die before caluurions and selenes procs, then what do they have to do with the conversation?

Neoauspex

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I'm all for ganking and low/zero TTK meta but the current Cyrodiil ecosystem is way too unhealthy to support it properly. Ganking just punishes solos/unorganised players and does nothing to hinder group play, which also punishes solos/unorganised players. This creates a scenario where there's too many farmers and not enough farmees, so farming groups spread all around the map trying to bait out a fight. Before the bowsorc/oakenblade meta, groups were kept in check and could still be farmed by bombers. This led to a somewhat sustainable ecosystem, albeit one where few playstyles were viable.

Nowadays the bombers have to not only deal with the ball group Xv1 but survive multiple gank attacks on the way in (since gankers and ball zergs have to converge due to a lack of farmees). Bombers also sacrifice all their survivability and single target abilities for burst aoe damage, so it's not really possible to compromise and handle both gankers and groups equally. When ball zergs are protected by lag and gankers, there really is no counterplay whatsoever and open world PVP dies.

Well, let me say something that won't be very popular.

Cyrodiil is a warzone and there are no rules. If you run solo, you assume the risks that you are probably going to get killed a lot and have no support. You might not even get rezzed as other "friendlies" run past you to get a tick. This is the way of the world. If you wanna run alone, you face a harder road than if you group up, whether it be small scale or bigger.

When I am on the battlefield, I don't have a magic marker that tells me who is solo and who is in a group. I attack what is in front of me and who would be the most strategic person. For example, if I know Player A is a worldbeater and can completely disrupt the battle, that is who I am going for.

I run solo plenty of times and it's frustrating because it can feel very much like you're getting the bad end of a stick, but the other players running me down have no idea whether I'm alone or not. They don't care. They see a NB, flare me or reveal me, and do everything they can to murder me.

If I go try to defend a keep and I'm all by my lonesome, it can be very annoying that I just got ran down by x number of players and no one from my faction showed up to help me.

But again, this is expected because I am alone. I am going to be out numbered and it's going to suck.

So back to your point.

Are you suggesting that NBs do not target people in a group? Because that's not true at all. Like I said, I have no way of knowing who is in a group or not, and it's not usually obvious because people run all over the place, group or no group. I run onto the dance floor many times and start fighting people that I would assume are grouped up.

The game isn't balanced for solo players because that is not possible. If you walk the lonely road, it's gonna be a harder journey.

I was more referring to the sustainability of "active pvp" in Cyrodiil. Let me give you an example of any typical timeslot in Gray Host from a bomber's perspective.
1. The other faction's zerglings are held at bay in one or more of their inner keeps by your faction's farming groups / ball zergs. They are for all intents and purposes out of the picture until the farming groups log off.
2. You then attempt to cut resources at a ring keep to fish out some zerglings that had enough of getting farmed at the inner keep. However these RSS are now a playground for some small scale sweaties that you have to deal with first. And no you can't just bomb over both enemy factions fighting as the sweats will just run into the tower and the zerg cluster won't form organically.
3. You rush over to defend a PvDoor only to find that it consists of 2-3 conjoined ball zergs with 0 defenders from your faction (because they too, are being farmed in your inner keeps). Let's assume you pull off a mediocre 6 man bomb through all the ganks, negates, stuns, hots, healing ultis and dcons. By the time you get a 2nd ulti, the PvDoor zerg is already on flags or repping. 90% of cases, you won't even have time to receive the juicy D-Tick from the first bomb as the keep flips within 90 seconds from start of siege.
4. The map will be entirely dead for another 30 min so you decide to check up on the enemy ball groups farming your inner keeps. You'll die to a few VD because your faction has some clueless 17k hp players chasing (probably just a cross-faction friend of the group helping out). After 5 mins of running around the top level, you clear them out and they just camp right back once the defenders leave.
5. 80% of your bombs end up happening at enemy faction keep/outpost fights, which makes for a seriously dull horse-riding simulator with the distances involved.

Long story short, the ecosystem is broken. Zerglings are completely useless and controlled in inner keeps by farm groups (or logged off altogether). Small scalers are now bottom feeding around resources for scraps and the only sieges happen when zerglings build enough of a faction stack to steamroll an objective. Ganking a bomber that is about to take out a large chunk of the ball zerg is not the way to help keep Cyrodiil alive.

Speaking from experience of group bombing and being group bombed there's enough clueless players in Cyrodiil that you wouldn't need to plant them on an enemy faction.

There's a player famous for doing this Xbox NA

EF321

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

I am well aware of this mechanic.

So if I am cloaked and I hit you, you are stunned. You have 1 full second to break free and block/dodge to avoid caluurions and/or ultimate. You should take advantage of this. It takes less than a second to do both. If you get desynced and can't break free, well that's on the server and you're likely gonna die regardless.

On top of you being told to break free and block/dodge because I CC'd you, Selene's summons a giant green bear that says DODGE ME which takes 1.3 seconds to hit, giving you even more time to avoid that damage.

It isn't unavoidable and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. I dodge those stupid bears all night long and then punish the wearer for wasting the mats golding that out.

I had Slippery + Zoal on a character a died before Zoal even went off, let alone I had control of my character.

DrSlaughtr

EF321 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Most of the NB toolkit right now tells you to roll dodge.

There is a mechanic which makes all the melee hits from sneak (real sneak state, when you crouch) to stun. So you start your sequence with mid or heavy attack into guaranteed incap and caluurions+selene. Trust me it is unavoidable, just hard to land as everyone moves and you need to target one specific enemy or it won't work.

I am well aware of this mechanic.

So if I am cloaked and I hit you, you are stunned. You have 1 full second to break free and block/dodge to avoid caluurions and/or ultimate. You should take advantage of this. It takes less than a second to do both. If you get desynced and can't break free, well that's on the server and you're likely gonna die regardless.

On top of you being told to break free and block/dodge because I CC'd you, Selene's summons a giant green bear that says DODGE ME which takes 1.3 seconds to hit, giving you even more time to avoid that damage.

It isn't unavoidable and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. I dodge those stupid bears all night long and then punish the wearer for wasting the mats golding that out.

I had Slippery + Zoal on a character a died before Zoal even went off, let alone I had control of my character.

There are a few reasons for this.

First, you were killed by the heavy attack and/or ultimate, which can land before you break free and move.

Second, you were desynced and your slippery failed to proc in time. This is a server issue.

Zoal isn't instant. It requires you to break free. So if you died before breaking free, then it's not going to fear the enemy. If you couldn't break free because the server screwed you, that isn't the NB's fault. Caluurions has a one second delay. If you break free immediately from the CC, you have time to dodge or block if the server isn't lagging out. Keep in mind, even if Zoal procs, it will not stop caluurions from hitting you, because it proc's instantly. It just hangs in the air for a second before landing.

If you ever have this happen again, please clip it so I can see it.