Does one extra gold gives the second player a serious advantage?

DinoZavr

Dear Zenimax, could it be changed into 1 Power, please?
Good cards in first 4 desks are normally 6 gold (Armory is a happy exclusion), so if a second player is lucky to get 5g with theirs first move, they can buy a good card from the Tavern (as the chances of no good 6g cards in the very beginning are low) just because this one "extra" gold.
I may be wrong, so, dear fellow players, let's discuss constructively and peacefully, i hope?

CyberOnEso

I don't think so, I think the biggest benefit going second allows for is for you to purchase 1 3-4 cost card and upgrade a card via the treasury.

In terms of powerful 4 - 5 cost cards you have...

• Amory (5)
• Siege Weapon Volley (4)
• Conquest (4)
• Toll of Flesh/ Silver(4)
• Pool of Shadow (4)
• Pilfer (5)
• Midnight Raid (4)
• Pounce and Profit (5)

Then in terms of powerful 6 cost cards you have...

• Hira's End (6)
• March on Hattu (6)
• Plunder (6)
• The crow agents (Which all require 3 crow to combo so are not quite as effective early game) (6)
• Elder Witch (6)

If given the choice I would generally prefer to go first, as having the choice of those very powerful 4-5 gold cost cards is in my opinion more impactful over getting a 6 cost card.
Even if I went second I would generally prefer taking a 4 cost card and upgrade a card with the Treasury over taking a 6 cost card.

Heartrage

Another good option is to use ragpicker in combination with the treasury or one or two harvest season with the treasury to get your treasury writs quicker in the game with a possibility to get 6 coins in your second turn before your opponent.

Lysette

Heartrage wrote: »

Another good option is to use ragpicker in combination with the treasury or one or two harvest season with the treasury to get your treasury writs quicker in the game with a possibility to get 6 coins in your second turn before your opponent.

This, I think that people underestimate how important it is to shape their deck and keep it decently small, in order to play their good cards more often. If all kind of trash bloats the deck, this is lowering the chances of your good cards to show up often.

Skvysh

Lysette wrote: »

This, I think that people underestimate how important it is to shape their deck and keep it decently small, in order to play their good cards more often. If all kind of trash bloats the deck, this is lowering the chances of your good cards to show up often.

The issue is that there are only 2 Destroy action cards in the treasury deck. You've got 3 more in Rahjin, which is mostly a meme deck (Moonlight Illusion being one of the very few good cards there) that you need to unlock, while the rest of Destroy cards are locked behind reaching max ToT rank - if the keyword was more accessible, more people would catch onto it. Right now you gotta hit rank 4 and challenge proficient AI opponents to see Red Eagle's deck in action - and even then, it's hard to stop yourself from just doing a patron victory for a quick <2 min match.

Turn one Elder Witch would be insane, though.

Lysette

Skvysh wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

This, I think that people underestimate how important it is to shape their deck and keep it decently small, in order to play their good cards more often. If all kind of trash bloats the deck, this is lowering the chances of your good cards to show up often.

The issue is that there are only 2 Destroy action cards in the treasury deck. You've got 3 more in Rahjin, which is mostly a meme deck (Moonlight Illusion being one of the very few good cards there) that you need to unlock, while the rest of Destroy cards are locked behind reaching max ToT rank - if the keyword was more accessible, more people would catch onto it. Right now you gotta hit rank 4 and challenge proficient AI opponents to see Red Eagle's deck in action - and even then, it's hard to stop yourself from just doing a patron victory for a quick <2 min match.

Turn one Elder Witch would be insane, though.

I'm not doing the patron win, I wouldn't learn anything from it - and yes, seeing Ansei/Eagle or Eagle/Rajhin for the first time in a match was quite a surprise, as well how fast paced that game gets with these decks in the mix. The trailer for ToT said, it would be a fast paced game. But if we can just play with the first 4 decks, it didn't seem to be any fast paced. With those other 4 decks though, this is changing drastically (as well because proficient NPCs do not hold back, whilst still making mistakes) and ToT gets really fast paced - some matches are well below 10 minutes and just a few over 15 minutes.

dmnqwk

Going first you get:

1) To see 5 cards before the opponent
2) The first opportunity to acquire cost 7 cards (Rally costs 7 and is one of the strongest cards in the game)
3) First use of Patron Power

A lot of the cost 6 cards are combo ones, meaning getting them early on does a lot less than most standalone cards. Because of this, being able to draw 6 first is NOT as strong as it appears. If anything, the only benefit is treasury use + cost 4 cards (which are often good enough on their own with their combo powers being the cherry on top).

Going second is a HUGE disadvantage in this game, and the 1 coin is a joke in terms of balance. I would much rather see either:
1) The benefit is extended to 1 coin for the first 2 turns, because pelin's starter just decimates you when it appears alone
2) On the first turn, only THREE cards are shown in the center, not five. (on top of the current 1 coin)
3) The 1 coin benefit is altered to being usable at ANY time during the match, meaning you can save it for when it's actually needed.

Right now it's obvious the game designer for ToT was a bit naive and didn't look at enough deckbuilder games to understand just how weak going second is. They did the statistical modelling, but failed to include the cards seen AND St Pelin screwup that can neutralize this.

Lysette

Going second is not a disadvantage - I get a chance to see what the other is up for while he had no idea when he started, what I will be going for. I can basically see, is he a card grabber or more a treasury guy - which card did he pick and so on.

redspecter23

There are advantages and disadvantages to going both first and second. In my limited experience, I think the 1 extra coin is a nice bonus that isn't too overpowering. I'd say that 1 bonus power might even be better than one coin allowing an easier setup for turn 1 hunding or red eagle use reliably, especialy hunding.

cyclonus11

dmnqwk wrote: »

Going first you get:

2) The first opportunity to acquire cost 7 cards (Rally costs 7 and is one of the strongest cards in the game)

How do you get a cost 7 card first round, when you only get 5 cards and none will give you more than 1 gold?

dmnqwk

cyclonus11 wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

Going first you get:

2) The first opportunity to acquire cost 7 cards (Rally costs 7 and is one of the strongest cards in the game)

How do you get a cost 7 card first round, when you only get 5 cards and none will give you more than 1 gold?

The first opportunity is as it says, the first chance and NOT the first round.
Turn 2 would be the earliest it could occur, but you'd need a lot of luck to pull it off.

For a turn 2 generation of 7 coins you'd need:
1) Draw an additional card with your opening hand - this costs 2 cards (either Sorc Patron and 2 power, or the treasury draw a card.) - so you'd shuffle for the second hand.
2) You'll have 3 cards remaining to purchase - because of the nature of things, you'll need a single card that costs 3 or less that can generate 3 or more coin. Scratch is one (comboing with Peck) and Luxury Exports is the other.
I think if you Hunding powered and drew a card turn 1, then bought a Coin 2 power you'd be able to pull it off as well, since you'd get the extra coin from the power + drawing the 2 coin card.

Obviously that's a one in a million shot, but the simplistic way is getting Writs of Coin, or other cost 2+ coin cards, with your first two turns before shuffling and hoping some RNG does it for you.

Lysette

Luxury Exports from the Hlaalu card deck can do that, if it is early on in the tavern - costs 2 gold and has a 3 gold gain. This way you can have 3+4x1 = 7 coins, when that Hlaalu card shows up again, or eventually even 3+3x2+1 = 10 coins, if you get lucky with the reshuffle of your deck - so getting to 7 coins in a turn is not that hard to do, and does not even require luck, just persistence with using the treasury at the end of a turn from the very start.