80 ToT Games Feedback - Pelin/Crow over-tuned - Tavern needs a rework

Rouz

Pelin especially. These two decks generate way too much power on their own compared to other ones. Someone getting a 2nd turn armory is a death sentence most games, unless you get lucky and get one too or a rally. I'm in voidsteel right now and 90% of my games are people making pelin plays. Most of the games i've one is because I got the pelin cards. Most of the games I've lost because they got the pelin cards. And if someone doesn't go pelin, then its crow. Its impossible to counter crow without pelin. And crow comes "close" to countering pelin but still isn't nearly as powerful. I was talking to another guy who is on the leaderboard and he says that most top players only go for pelin plays. The deck is absolutely bonkers right now and over performing leaps and bounds. They're the only decks that can generate ~25 power or more in one turn. Considering the win is 40, max is 80; you put the game in a position where if one of these decks is in play; it's REQUIRED to have the other one to even stand a chance at an even game.

The tavern is also the next major issue. The tavern needs to do a complete refresh every turn. I am so tired of spending multiple rounds in a row where nobody is doing anything. The game rewards inaction wayyy to much. Why? Because pulling that cheap/meh card may result in it getting replaced by a really good/OP card. That the next person then gets. So everyone is afraid of doing that and we spend round after round after round of nobody doing anything. Its so frustrating. If you were to do a complete refresh of the tavern every round, we'd see Hlaalu become more center stage as a viable deck, rather then just a deck that helps you get pelin/crow. We'd see red eagle become more prominent as there will be more cards to sacrifice. Right now the game is punishing players who are trying to do anything other than the meta strategies. Yes if Pelin/Crow get nerfed, then something else will become meta and we'd be back in the same issue. Where players are waiting for the other one to budge and get the meh card to be replaced by a good card. The tavern is just not promoting fun gameplay.

bUt ItS a StRaTeGy
aLl tGc ArE lIkE tHiS

Cool, I don't care. Most TGC card games have horrible populations for a reason.

Finally maybe look into how competitive points are being rewarded. I don't know whats going on if there's some formula behind the scenes deciding luck. But the win/lose is getting annoying. I get good luck and get a great pull then win. Then next game I have bad luck and lose. Rinse and repeat till I have about 100 points (you get 110 for a win, 100 for a lost. So a 50/50 win rate still progresses slowly). Then I get bad luck twice in a row and get reset back to my starting point. I've played what seems like ~30 games today. And I'm still at the same exact competitive point count as I was when I started. Playing 30 games and not moving because its perfectly evened out is quite annoying. Maybe make it so wins are 100, loses are -50? So it takes two loses to completely undo a win.

I was having an absolute blast in this game for the first 3 days when people weren't all going pelin and actually doing fun stuff. Having games where the decks where green, blue, yellow, and orange. No crow. No pelin. Those are so interesting. But now every game is playing out exactly the same and its no longer fun/interesting. And it absolutely is killing me that we may have to wait till the end of a month before this gets addressed. Probably at minimum a whole nother week.

kmfdm

It is true that getting Armory on Turn 1 is usually a certain win, but Ansei and Red Eagle can easily counter most of Pelin and Duke built-ups.

Rouz

In what way? The only way I can see that working is denying them from getting those cards by getting rid of them from the tavern pile. Seems like if someone gets a rally or an early armor, that's basically it. Game is decided. No way ansei can fully counter a rally + armory. Unless they get those two cards super late into the game.

kmfdm

Rouz wrote: »

In what way? The only way I can see that working is denying them from getting those cards by getting rid of them from the tavern pile. Seems like if someone gets a rally or an early armor, that's basically it. Game is decided. No way ansei can fully counter a rally + armory. Unless they get those two cards super late into the game.

Im not gonna tell you my strategies, as Im sitting at the top of the ranking as of now, but I can consistently beat Duke and Pelin strategies. The cost/power ratios in this game are fairly standardized with other deckbuilders (star realms, ascension...) so it is not unbalanced in any major way, maybe armory and midnight raid needs a bit tweaking, but only time will tell.

Rouz

Eh well see next season. Every video I've seen of people playing (including those on the leaderboard) have been reliant on pelin or raven. They won by getting good draws from them. Season 1 I'm not too interested in. Also think with the influx of new players helped pad the roster and give people easy wins to climb season tiers fast. Thursday I was playing and won 7 in a row, lost 1, won another 6, lost 1 more. Went from ebony up to voidsteel. Now I'm sitting at a 50/50 win rate. Will be more interesting next season when everyone who plays from day 1 knows how to play and isn't making mistakes. If they keep the balance/structure of the game as is, I'm going to bet people are going to have a change of heart.

kmfdm

Rouz wrote: »

Eh well see next season. Every video I've seen of people playing (including those on the leaderboard) have been reliant on pelin or raven. They won by getting good draws from them. Season 1 I'm not too interested in. Also think with the influx of new players helped pad the roster and give people easy wins to climb season tiers fast. Thursday I was playing and won 7 in a row, lost 1, won another 6, lost 1 more. Went from ebony up to voidsteel. Now I'm sitting at a 50/50 win rate. Will be more interesting next season when everyone who plays from day 1 knows how to play and isn't making mistakes. If they keep the balance/structure of the game as is, I'm going to bet people are going to have a change of heart.

You are right, Pelin and Duke are meta right now, and I see almost everyone from top 10 in Leaderboard focus on them, but I constantly win against them. The meta will change within a week, you will see.

Lysette

kmfdm wrote: »

Rouz wrote: »

Eh well see next season. Every video I've seen of people playing (including those on the leaderboard) have been reliant on pelin or raven. They won by getting good draws from them. Season 1 I'm not too interested in. Also think with the influx of new players helped pad the roster and give people easy wins to climb season tiers fast. Thursday I was playing and won 7 in a row, lost 1, won another 6, lost 1 more. Went from ebony up to voidsteel. Now I'm sitting at a 50/50 win rate. Will be more interesting next season when everyone who plays from day 1 knows how to play and isn't making mistakes. If they keep the balance/structure of the game as is, I'm going to bet people are going to have a change of heart.

You are right, Pelin and Duke are meta right now, and I see almost everyone from top 10 in Leaderboard focus on them, but I constantly win against them. The meta will change within a week, you will see.

Pelin is just easy and straightforward to play, that is why many go for it. I stick with my Hlaalu/Duke and later Duke/Celarius strategy - focusing on Hlaalu/Duke early on gets me all the cards I need to switch to Duke/Celarius with a bunch of Pelin cards in the mix as well. And everything high value not required I dump on patron Hlaalu for direct prestige gain. This makes the card deck smaller and the push through of the winning cards is faster and those cards come more often into play.

Pelin strategies are like elephants - strong and they might eventually get there - I prefer the swift jaguar or cheetah approach, as in "if you recognize what is coming, it is too late already". Might not always work though, sometimes it turns out to be a Pelin run in the end, just by sheer chance of which cards came up.

Fhritz

Ansei can generate tons of power too, and since it allow you to "replay" some cards you can generate way more power then pelin

kmfdm

Rush: Pelin / Eagle / Ansei
Combo: Duke / Celarius
Engine: Hlaalu
Slog: Rajhin

Youmee

kmfdm wrote: »

Im not gonna tell you my strategies, as Im sitting at the top of the ranking as of now, but.

Hmmm I dont see any kmfdm there

Rouz

Lysette wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

Rouz wrote: »

Eh well see next season. Every video I've seen of people playing (including those on the leaderboard) have been reliant on pelin or raven. They won by getting good draws from them. Season 1 I'm not too interested in. Also think with the influx of new players helped pad the roster and give people easy wins to climb season tiers fast. Thursday I was playing and won 7 in a row, lost 1, won another 6, lost 1 more. Went from ebony up to voidsteel. Now I'm sitting at a 50/50 win rate. Will be more interesting next season when everyone who plays from day 1 knows how to play and isn't making mistakes. If they keep the balance/structure of the game as is, I'm going to bet people are going to have a change of heart.

You are right, Pelin and Duke are meta right now, and I see almost everyone from top 10 in Leaderboard focus on them, but I constantly win against them. The meta will change within a week, you will see.

Pelin is just easy and straightforward to play, that is why many go for it. I stick with my Hlaalu/Duke and later Duke/Celarius strategy - focusing on Hlaalu/Duke early on gets me all the cards I need to switch to Duke/Celarius with a bunch of Pelin cards in the mix as well. And everything high value not required I dump on patron Hlaalu for direct prestige gain. This makes the card deck smaller and the push through of the winning cards is faster and those cards come more often into play.

Pelin strategies are like elephants - strong and they might eventually get there - I prefer the swift jaguar or cheetah approach, as in "if you recognize what is coming, it is too late already". Might not always work though, sometimes it turns out to be a Pelin run in the end, just by sheer chance of which cards came up.

I mean this is sorta what I'm talking about though. And maybe its because I'm looking at decks wrong. But so many people or game winning plays I see involve pelin/crow. If I look at a video of someone saying they're playing say ansei or psijic or something like that and throughout the game they're utilizing things like rally or an armory or volleys or reinforcements...they're not winning because of ansei or psijic. They're winning because of pelin (or crow if we use that as an example). If those cards weren't there and replaced with something else; they would've lost. The question is that if this is intentional. Are the cards basically Ansei/Orgnum/Pelin/Crow as primaries. Then you use Hlaalu/Red Eagle/Psijic/Rahiji ad supporting decks? Are those decks in the second list not "supposed" to have to prestiege/power generation that's similar to the first list?

kmfdm

Youmee wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

Im not gonna tell you my strategies, as Im sitting at the top of the ranking as of now, but.

Hmmm I dont see any kmfdm there

It is Querelle in EU 1814 points atm.

Lysette

Rouz wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

Rouz wrote: »

Eh well see next season. Every video I've seen of people playing (including those on the leaderboard) have been reliant on pelin or raven. They won by getting good draws from them. Season 1 I'm not too interested in. Also think with the influx of new players helped pad the roster and give people easy wins to climb season tiers fast. Thursday I was playing and won 7 in a row, lost 1, won another 6, lost 1 more. Went from ebony up to voidsteel. Now I'm sitting at a 50/50 win rate. Will be more interesting next season when everyone who plays from day 1 knows how to play and isn't making mistakes. If they keep the balance/structure of the game as is, I'm going to bet people are going to have a change of heart.

You are right, Pelin and Duke are meta right now, and I see almost everyone from top 10 in Leaderboard focus on them, but I constantly win against them. The meta will change within a week, you will see.

Pelin is just easy and straightforward to play, that is why many go for it. I stick with my Hlaalu/Duke and later Duke/Celarius strategy - focusing on Hlaalu/Duke early on gets me all the cards I need to switch to Duke/Celarius with a bunch of Pelin cards in the mix as well. And everything high value not required I dump on patron Hlaalu for direct prestige gain. This makes the card deck smaller and the push through of the winning cards is faster and those cards come more often into play.

Pelin strategies are like elephants - strong and they might eventually get there - I prefer the swift jaguar or cheetah approach, as in "if you recognize what is coming, it is too late already". Might not always work though, sometimes it turns out to be a Pelin run in the end, just by sheer chance of which cards came up.

I mean this is sorta what I'm talking about though. And maybe its because I'm looking at decks wrong. But so many people or game winning plays I see involve pelin/crow. If I look at a video of someone saying they're playing say ansei or psijic or something like that and throughout the game they're utilizing things like rally or an armory or volleys or reinforcements...they're not winning because of ansei or psijic. They're winning because of pelin (or crow if we use that as an example). If those cards weren't there and replaced with something else; they would've lost. The question is that if this is intentional. Are the cards basically Ansei/Orgnum/Pelin/Crow as primaries. Then you use Hlaalu/Red Eagle/Psijic/Rahiji ad supporting decks? Are those decks in the second list not "supposed" to have to prestiege/power generation that's similar to the first list?

Well, I played my first "regular" games with proficient NPCs - the NPC took 2 of the other decks each time - I didn't know those decks yet and chose deliberately not pelin - but hlaalu and the duke. While the first part of my normal strategy worked, the end phase was terrible, because the duke needs celarius as suppprt to be highly efficient. That NPC made her prestige using Hlaalu, well much like I do it quite often - in the end I lost by a small margin, mostly because of not knowing these other 2 decks yet and because the duke really needs psijic support to stabilize the length of card sequences played.

Btw we both made prestige a whole lot quicker than with Pelin - if you don't have Pelin available, things change a lot. This is basically because Hlaalu acquires cards quickly and you can dump nearly anything on the hlaalu patron and get prestige directly, not via power. And as far as I could see Ansei and Rahiji are really "weird" decks, with very special powers - Rahiji especially is causing a mess. But I think, that someone playing those 2 decks well, can be quite powerful.

Rouz

Yeah I mean that's against NPCs. It's a different animal when you try to play ranked. And right now I see a lot of players saying it's fine because they're at leaderboard and were able to get to leaderboard thanks to newb stomping a bunch of randoms on release week. I would love to see someone go from unranked to leaderboards now. Its damn near impossible with the way some of these decks are. Especially pelin. Rally and armory are stupidly powerful for stand alone cards. At least crow requires multiple cards. Pelin is just like "Oh ok so now that you've got this one card, your chances of winning go up 90% and the only counter is for the other player to get a pelin card too". It's a disaster of design and I bet you my left ear that if they keep it the way it is and people have to progress rank in a month against "normal" players, they're gonna have a change of heart too. The amount of games I've won and lost thanks to a single pelin card is just stupid. It's poor design and most people who are defending that deck are just just defending it thanks to survivorship bias. But no, lets leave it for another 20 days. Its not like im fighting the same 4 people over and over again today while playing during peak hours.

Lysette

I'm not that likely to ever play ranked, because people tend to be how you described them and I have no interest to deal with this kind of mentality. I might occasionally play with friends or people I know better at least - otherwise, I have no interest to play with some random people. This is not just with ToT this way, I dislike playing with random people in general.

Foxtrot39

Hlaalu-psijic can make some great play

Used psijic to always control my next hand and hlaalu to get free cards, ended up pulling a 4 mentor win in a single turn with the tavern tribute and hlaalu change of money card

But yeah Pelin is broken with the ability to get 25% progress to victory with only 2 cards

Crow with the ability to pull your entire deck in one turn isn't any better

Rouz

Yeah right now ranked is rough. Matches are taking 30 mins+ quite normally now because people are trying to plan properly (which is fine). Losing takes away too many points in my opinion and it's just going to take days to even get to the leaderboard of playing. And it's extra frustrating when you lose because you essentially get negative progress for 30 mins. I've been playing 5-8 hours every day since Friday and I literally haven't moved tiers at all. RNG has been so bad that I'm starting to think this game stacks luck against you once you win. Because this is just too convenient that i'm getting "just" enough bad luck games that it evens out perfectly...

I've had a few games where no one played pelin and they were really fun/interesting. But both times (either the other player or myself) just didn't get any good draws. They'd/I would draw a card finally because i needed to start building to something and it gets replaced by the perfect card for the opponent. Then they grab it, and it gets replaced by a bad card. Rinse and repeat. Even if you're doing everything right and trying to enact a strategy, you just get bad draws. Or the opponent gets really good draws 3-4 times. That's all it takes for the game to turn and for there to be a prestige backlog that's too large to come out of.

I think I'm going to finish out the weekend trying for rank again and if I still haven't god damn moved at all, I'm just going to go back to PvE/unranked. Aint worth the trouble to spend this long playing for measly rewards. I can't wait to see what the next season will bring if there's no balance changes. I suspect its going to take people significantly longer to get to leaderboard lol.

Edit:

Finally did it. Got to rank 62. Man almighty that was tough.

Lysette

It can be tough against proficient NPCs as well - especially because I have not much experience with those other 4 decks yet. A really nasty but very interesting match I played was my opponent choosing Rahiji/Ansei and I tried Duke/Hlaalu against it. Couldn't get efficient duke going in the time that game lasted (so it doesn't seem to be a good strategy to play Duke without Celarius support, but then again how to play without Hlaalu?) - but I lost with just a small margin. Those decks that NPC was using are a nasty combination - I will keep playing and see what I can learn from it.

Lysette

The trouble with ToT is that it is keeping me from my other activities - this weekend my shop got sold out, ok I had just a small rest listed anyway, still about 300k sold, and when I compare that with what playing ToT got me - meh - I really have to make room for other activities again - I quested a little and found me back in a tavern playing ToT in the middle of the quest - lol. So yeah, it is pulling me towards it like a magnet pulls iron.

Lysette

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Crow with the ability to pull your entire deck in one turn isn't any better.

it's not that easy to construct that duke deck though, it has to be either controlled by Celarius or thinned out to just leaving the good cards in it first - and that takes time, time your opponent might not give you. So this is all relative, against someone not that experienced, it might work well, but not necessarily against someone who really rushes the match for a timely win.

I will give hlaalu/celarius a go, because I think like you that it could turn out well.