No real explanations, too frustrating to learn

Scaletho

This new card game have many problems imho.

First, the "learning" given to us by the NPCs are absurdly simplistic and disregard completely an detailed explanation of the different cards and its functions in the game.

So far, i lost ALL ''novice" games. And if I'm not able to win once, I can't complete the quest and be member of the club. The NPCs says "no matter if you win or lose, the point is practice and learn" and yet if I don't win I'm stuck in the quest!! WTH?

Second, the NPC "novices" -- as usual for any strategic game -- cheats. They start "dumb" and suddenly they became quite hard to win. Of course, we must play by ear because there is no way to understand the game's basic strategies and the different cards strengths or weakness.

As usual, many hardcore player will get it fast. By most players need some real and clear basic learning about the game.

Lack of comprehensive explanations about strategy and meaning of the cards, frustrating odds against us, lack of fun. If ZOS don't find a better way to introduce this card game, it will be destined to the deeps of Oblivion: almost no one will bother to play it.

Lugaldu

Oh, I've won a few "novice" games - but I have no idea why. This game is in no way self-explanatory, after the tutorial or even 10 rounds you are just as "clever" as before. And one round takes way too long imho.

Sarannah

So far I only did the intro quest(tutorial match and one novice NPC), and even though I managed to win twice.... I have no friggin clue what I'm doing and what anything even is.

My experience with cardgames is 0, and I never looked up anything in advance! I had to forfeit the tutorialmatch twice, as the game told me to pick the card from the tavern, but never said how. There was nothing I could do, and not even a help function or way to leave the game. Only through looking up the tutorial video on the eso website, was it shown I need to activate the gold cards first, before I can pick one from the tavern.

Currently I am at the moment where I think: Wth are agents, wth are patrons, wth are the symbols on the cards, wth are the descriptions, oehw something went green for some reason, might as well click it. And yes, I read every card and every description very carefully, still no clue what is going on. Or what most of the terms are/mean.

The game is not intuitive at all, not even in the slightest! The tutorial is no help either. And so far I had 0 fun, nor interest in playing again. Will do a few more matches against novice NPC's today, but if it doesn't click with me, I'm done playing it at all.

PS: I probably won because I read the book on the counter in the gamblinghouse, so I flipped the patrons to me when I could. As I knew that was one of the win conditions.
PPS: Scrying/excavation clicked with me in one try.

Lysette

Scaletho wrote: »

This new card game have many problems imho.

Second, the NPC "novices" -- as usual for any strategic game -- cheats. They start "dumb" and suddenly they became quite hard to win. Of course, we must play by ear because there is no way to understand the game's basic strategies and the different cards strengths or weakness.

What you experience as sudden increase in ability of the novice NPC is not a cheat, but the nature of this game. You start out with just a few resources to use (gold/power) and acquire over time more cards with better resources and special abilities. That is why it is called a deck building card game.

This way your hand to play gets increasingly more powerful to the end of the game, it starts slow, but towards the end it is a real challenge to battle your opponent or to leave him fast behind or being the one left behind.

If both built a decent deck, there is likely a "contested" battle at the end - one is reaching 40+ and the other needs to overturn that result next turn, to stay in the game. If he can do that, then the other has to deal with this problem - this can go on until one is reaching 80+. If being unable to keep up, then the game is lost.

That was the most likely case with 2 decent players. If the own deck is not built well, it is likely to be left behind quickly towards the end. Or if the own deck is the better one, you will leave the opponent behind very quickly towards the end.

I gave a few more hints about the game in this thread
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/607181/the-card-game-is-too-complicated

Sarannah

Did the daily quest, to win a match in three cities. This took me five games in total, and I now seem to have a better understanding of how the game works(a bit).

The most important thing I learned was: Grab the cards you want, and improve your deck during the game. Once you understand the cards you grant yourself give you repeated benefits, it becomes much much easier. This insight allowed me to start thinking about how to gain points to win. Why this is never explained anywhere is strange, or it might have been so obvious I missed it.

The only complaint I have is the games taking so long.

Reverb

Someone on Reddit asked for a dumbed down explanation of the card game (ELI5) and the top response was las long as a detailed dungeon walkthrough.

Everything I read and hear about it makes it seem like it’s unnecessarily complex and a big time commitment. No thank you.

I just wanted TES Legends inside of eso.

Syldras

Well, I've understood the game after trying it out for about half a dozen matches, but I agree that it's not really intuitive and the tutorial isn't very helpful either. You can't even see in detail what your opponent does and learn by watching, because the cards are laid down too fast and there is no mouse-over for your opponent's cards, so you can't read what effects and functions they have. Of course, after a while you have memorized them after using them yourself, then you understand what exactly your opponent is doing and why, but when you've just started, you don't have a clue at all what exactly is even happening. Even after playing the tutorial, which normally shouldn't leave you even more confused.

I'm really wondering why some simple and basic info isn't given. It wouldn't be hard to include in the tutorial that gold (yellow points) expire after each turn if unused, while power (red points) turn to prestige (blue points) at the end of the turn and when you've amassed 40 blue points, you've won. Also, a short description what you may do with those points would be helpful. Using gold (yellow points) to buy cards from the middle row seems logical, but there's no explanation in the tutorial what you can use the red points for (except for collecting them so they convert into blue points for your victory count, but I've found out later that they have more purposes). I know there are written tutorials on the internet now, mostly by official ESO partners, but the rules of a game should be explained in the game itself, you shouldn't be forced to search the internet for them.

Generally, the game doesn't seem that entertaining of exciting to me. It feels more like doing chores - checking the "wishlists" of the patrons and then "shopping" the right cards for them. Every match was the same so far: Paying one gold to turn the purple patron, then buying a card with a gold value to turn the yellow patron, next, buying an actor card to turn the red one, and at last waiting for the enemy to have an actor card to turn the blue patron. Or, alternatively, you try to buy cards that give you a lot of red points, so they change to blue points and you win by getting 40 of those. Of course you can get a bit more tactical, but so far it seems quite monotonous. I don't even really have to care for what the opponent does, as long as he's not getting blue points much faster than me. It may get a bit more complex on higher levels, I'll see, but at the moment it feels just bland.

It's not really motivating, especially if you keep in mind that a match takes at least 20 minutes (even longer in the beginning, I would say, because you still have to read what each single card does), and then you don't even get that interesting rewards. So, for the minimum reward for the daily quest you get from the Khajiit woman in Gonfalon, you have to win one match. Which takes 20-30 minutes minimum - if you win. If not, you may try again, and if you win the 2nd or 3rd match, you've spent between and hour or even one and a half hours to finish that single quest (you get 1 reward box for it, including crafting materials or a blue recipe or furniture plan - not neccessarily new ones, even). Then, you get an "extra reward" if you win not only one match, but 3. Which takes at minimum 1 to 1,5 hours, if you succeed in each one immediately... And that "extra reward" which sounded like something extremely rare and special was nothing more that you got 3 reward boxed instead of 1. The items inside the boxes were the usual ones, nothing special. It's not really rewarding if you consider how much time those matches take; in one hour, you can definitively get more materials, recipes and furniture plans (especially if you go treasure chest hunting with Mirri) by any other activity.

Lysette

Reverb wrote: »

Someone on Reddit asked for a dumbed down explanation of the card game (ELI5) and the top response was las long as a detailed dungeon walkthrough.

Everything I read and hear about it makes it seem like it’s unnecessarily complex and a big time commitment. No thank you.

I just wanted TES Legends inside of eso.

My matches last about 10 to 20 minutes, rarely longer. If you assume 4 matches per hour, it takes about 5 hours to get from novice to trainee rank (winning that is). So yeah, it is time consuming - but it is meant to be a fun activity, not a grind. If it is just a grind for you and you cannot enjoy it, do something else or play just occasionally.

Scaletho

Lugaldu wrote: »

Oh, I've won a few "novice" games - but I have no idea why. This game is in no way self-explanatory, after the tutorial or even 10 rounds you are just as "clever" as before. And one round takes way too long imho.

I won ONCE with my second main toon, and like you I don't have a faint idea how. Since I won this with one character and finished the quest. I try the TT quest with my main character and so far I played 13 times (!!!!) and LOST ALL!

I tried to watch how the NPC's AI plays, and simply can't figure out how it can keep showing new cards without buying from the table.

It's very frustrating, convoluted, horribly explained. I play POKER way better than this card game.

I really want to like and play the game, but so far ZOS is making very difficult to me.

Lysette

Scaletho wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Oh, I've won a few "novice" games - but I have no idea why. This game is in no way self-explanatory, after the tutorial or even 10 rounds you are just as "clever" as before. And one round takes way too long imho.

I won ONCE with my second main toon, and like you I don't have a faint idea how. Since I won this with one character and finished the quest. I try the TT quest with my main character and so far I played 13 times (!!!!) and LOST ALL!

I tried to watch how the NPC's AI plays, and simply can't figure out how it can keep showing new cards without buying from the table.

It's very frustrating, convoluted, horribly explained. I play POKER way better than this card game.

I really want to like and play the game, but so far ZOS is making very difficult to me.

It is sometimes hard to follow what the NPC is doing - especially when it is reorganizing it's stack - the toss ability of some cards can be very powerful especially when you have several of those - the AI is most likely taking full advantage of that and creates this way a bunch of combos - especially towards the end of the game. But observe how often it is shifting cards from the draw stack to the cool down pile - and this way enhancing the probability to have combo-able cards on hand soon. The AI is as well taking full advantage of cards which let you draw a card more - I have seen sequences where it is using whole lot of cards, is reorganizing as well the tavern and so - especially when you reach 40 and it tries to overturn your result.

Lysette

An example - lets say the draw stack looks like this (C being a card which could be part of a combo):

xCCxxCCxx - so the next hand would normally be xCCxx - combo 2. But if it has 2 toss cards, for example toss 2 and toss 4 it can reorganize that draw stack - first toss 2 - removing the first 2 - now we have xCCxxCC the next hand would be CxxCC - a combo 3 - but with the toss 4 card it can change this to xCCCC, and achieve a combo 4 hand.

Scaletho

Lysette wrote: »

It is sometimes hard to follow what the NPC is doing - especially when it is reorganizing it's stack - the toss ability of some cards can be very powerful especially when you have several of those - the AI is most likely taking full advantage of that and creates this way a bunch of combos - especially towards the end of the game. But observe how often it is shifting cards from the draw stack to the cool down pile - and this way enhancing the probability to have combo-able cards on hand soon. The AI is as well taking full advantage of cards which let you draw a card more - I have seen sequences where it is using whole lot of cards, is reorganizing as well the tavern and so - especially when you reach 40 and it tries to overturn your result.

EXACTLY! I saw the AI taking cards from cooldown pile and sending all to the draw pile, and then using the hand cards and picking more cards from the draw! What the heck is that?

AI cheats. But my most important point is: when you start the game you know nothing or almost nothing. You are told to play with NPCs "novices like you", and in fact when you play with then its obvious the novice NPCs AI is way better than you.

The NPCs don't make mistakes, they pick exactly the cards they need to crush you. One game I was winning with 39 prestiges and the NPC was about 12 points behind. Suddenly the AI start to put "agents" in the table, and getting lots of power. I simply couldn't make power anymore. The game ended with 39 x 40 for the NPC! I lost by ONE POINT!

Lysette

Scaletho wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

It is sometimes hard to follow what the NPC is doing - especially when it is reorganizing it's stack - the toss ability of some cards can be very powerful especially when you have several of those - the AI is most likely taking full advantage of that and creates this way a bunch of combos - especially towards the end of the game. But observe how often it is shifting cards from the draw stack to the cool down pile - and this way enhancing the probability to have combo-able cards on hand soon. The AI is as well taking full advantage of cards which let you draw a card more - I have seen sequences where it is using whole lot of cards, is reorganizing as well the tavern and so - especially when you reach 40 and it tries to overturn your result.

EXACTLY! I saw the AI taking cards from cooldown pile and sending all to the draw pile, and then using the hand cards and picking more cards from the draw! What the heck is that?

AI cheats. But my most important point is: when you start the game you know nothing or almost nothing. You are told to play with NPCs "novices like you", and in fact when you play with then its obvious the novice NPCs AI is way better than you.

The NPCs don't make mistakes, they pick exactly the cards they need to crush you. One game I was winning with 39 prestiges and the NPC was about 12 points behind. Suddenly the AI start to put "agents" in the table, and getting lots of power. I simply couldn't make power anymore. The game ended with 39 x 40 for the NPC! I lost by ONE POINT!

no, that is using those toss card, draw another card card and so on - I gave an example 2 posts above. They construct combos which give them a huge amount of possible moves.

Btw I lost one as well by one point - happens.

Scaletho

Lysette wrote: »

Scaletho wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

It is sometimes hard to follow what the NPC is doing - especially when it is reorganizing it's stack - the toss ability of some cards can be very powerful especially when you have several of those - the AI is most likely taking full advantage of that and creates this way a bunch of combos - especially towards the end of the game. But observe how often it is shifting cards from the draw stack to the cool down pile - and this way enhancing the probability to have combo-able cards on hand soon. The AI is as well taking full advantage of cards which let you draw a card more - I have seen sequences where it is using whole lot of cards, is reorganizing as well the tavern and so - especially when you reach 40 and it tries to overturn your result.

EXACTLY! I saw the AI taking cards from cooldown pile and sending all to the draw pile, and then using the hand cards and picking more cards from the draw! What the heck is that?

AI cheats. But my most important point is: when you start the game you know nothing or almost nothing. You are told to play with NPCs "novices like you", and in fact when you play with then its obvious the novice NPCs AI is way better than you.

The NPCs don't make mistakes, they pick exactly the cards they need to crush you. One game I was winning with 39 prestiges and the NPC was about 12 points behind. Suddenly the AI start to put "agents" in the table, and getting lots of power. I simply couldn't make power anymore. The game ended with 39 x 40 for the NPC! I lost by ONE POINT!

no, that is using those toss card, draw another card card and so on - I gave an example 2 posts above. They construct combos which give them a huge amount of possible moves.

Btw I lost one as well by one point - happens.

Ok! thanks! I will check you example.

Lysette

Scaletho wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

It is sometimes hard to follow what the NPC is doing - especially when it is reorganizing it's stack - the toss ability of some cards can be very powerful especially when you have several of those - the AI is most likely taking full advantage of that and creates this way a bunch of combos - especially towards the end of the game. But observe how often it is shifting cards from the draw stack to the cool down pile - and this way enhancing the probability to have combo-able cards on hand soon. The AI is as well taking full advantage of cards which let you draw a card more - I have seen sequences where it is using whole lot of cards, is reorganizing as well the tavern and so - especially when you reach 40 and it tries to overturn your result.

EXACTLY! I saw the AI taking cards from cooldown pile and sending all to the draw pile, and then using the hand cards and picking more cards from the draw! What the heck is that?

AI cheats. But my most important point is: when you start the game you know nothing or almost nothing. You are told to play with NPCs "novices like you", and in fact when you play with then its obvious the novice NPCs AI is way better than you.

The NPCs don't make mistakes, they pick exactly the cards they need to crush you. One game I was winning with 39 prestiges and the NPC was about 12 points behind. Suddenly the AI start to put "agents" in the table, and getting lots of power. I simply couldn't make power anymore. The game ended with 39 x 40 for the NPC! I lost by ONE POINT!

These constructions of combos is what the AI can do really well - I was about 20 ahead and passed 40 - and then it started constructing and using its cards and in the end it had 13 gold left and 27 power - and used the duke of crow - creating another 12 power, so it got 39 prestige in that turn - now I was about 19 behind, managed twice to make up and get ahead again, but in the end I lost that game.

But it was very interesting to observe, how powerful that actually is - the AI was before always doing a lot of shifting cards from the draw deck into the cool down pile (with those toss cards) and constructed this way hands which a lot of combos. And this actually works well, I am using this now as well whenever I get a chance - well not so much at start because there is nothing of value in my draw stack yet.

If you couldn't make power to prestige anymore, there was likely an agent active, which blocks the conversion of power to prestige. You have to remove them with one of the patrons - it costs 4 coin to get rid of one agent. Another possible way is the black hand card - it is a contract card and immediately played - it removes up to 2 agents.

Scaletho

Lysette wrote: »

EXACTLY! I saw the AI taking cards from cooldown pile and sending all to the draw pile, and then using the hand cards and picking more cards from the draw! What the heck is that?

AI cheats. But my most important point is: when you start the game you know nothing or almost nothing. You are told to play with NPCs "novices like you", and in fact when you play with then its obvious the novice NPCs AI is way better than you.

The NPCs don't make mistakes, they pick exactly the cards they need to crush you. One game I was winning with 39 prestiges and the NPC was about 12 points behind. Suddenly the AI start to put "agents" in the table, and getting lots of power. I simply couldn't make power anymore. The game ended with 39 x 40 for the NPC! I lost by ONE POINT!

These constructions of combos is what the AI can do really well - I was about 20 ahead and passed 40 - and then it started constructing and using its cards and in the end it had 13 gold left and 27 power - and used the duke of crow - creating another 12 power, so it got 39 prestige in that turn - now I was about 19 behind, managed twice to make up and get ahead again, but in the end I lost that game.

But it was very interesting to observe, how powerful that actually is - the AI was before always doing a lot of shifting cards from the draw deck into the cool down pile (with those toss cards) and constructed this way hands which a lot of combos. And this actually works well, I am using this now as well whenever I get a chance - well not so much at start because there is nothing of value in my draw stack yet.

If you couldn't make power to prestige anymore, there was likely an agent active, which blocks the conversion of power to prestige. You have to remove them with one of the patrons - it costs 4 coin to get rid of one agent. Another possible way is the black hand card - it is a contract card and immediately played - it removes up to 2 agents.[/quote]

Many thanks for your input. But I still find absurd that in order to finish the quest of be part of the Club (I forgot the quest name) the player must win one game, despite the completely lack of stills in the beginning. I'm stuck in this quest and simply can't win any game, despite I'm trying my best to use all I could read, see and study.

For the sake of introductory quest, simply play one game (win or lose) should be suffice to move on and finish it.

NPC "novices" are not novices at all. And I stand by my opinion that the AI don't make errors. No all players get the game quickly.

Lysette

Ok, I'll try it with a different approach - a little bit more systematic.

Card decks of patrons have different main goals:

Saint Pelin (the brownish one) - gain power, hinder prestige gain of the opponent
Duke of Crows (the blueish one) - draw cards from the stack during a turn
Hlaalu (the yellowish one) - acquire cards from the tavern
Celarius (he greenish one) - manipulate stacks and tavern

all provide as well gold, but what I wrote above is the main purpose of the associated decks.

At start the setup is as follows - who opens the game, has 4 gold and 1 power, the 2nd player starts out with 6 gold.

I tend to look for cards from Hlaalu (those where you can take a card from the tavern up to value 5), this or the associated agent, who has just 1 gold solo, but can in a combo acquire another card from the tavern up to a value of 5). If you can get those cards or the agent from Hlaalu, you have a quite good start and your deck will fill up quickly with valuable cards.

If none of those is there, I look for cards from Celarius - mainly a mixture of gaining gold and draw-stack manipulation or removal from cards in the tavern. Those can be useful, if the tavern does not have good cards available.

If that is as well not there, I go for cards from Saint Pelin - those are the cards which gain power and their agents and contractors hinder the opponent to gain prestige. Those can be important in the later game, not so much at start.

Finally cards from the duke - these allow to draw more cards from the stack during a turn - especially in combos very useful.

What the AI does ist basically gathering these strategic cards and use them in the later game to create extremely long sequences, which build up resources (gold, power) in huge amounts, because those are ongoing combos. Those cards of the duke care for that it does not run out of new cards quickly, cards from celarius organize the draw stack in a way, which leads to more combos and manipulate the tavern until good cards are available.

Basically combos from Hlaalu acquire many cards rather cheaply, Celarius manipulates stack and tavern that enough good cards are available and cards from the Duke keep the sequence going. And all that to acquire cards from Pelin in the end, which are then converted into prestige at the end.

This is basically what the AI does to get these amazing runs at the end of a game. It looks like magic, but it is just a clever combination of cards from these 3 patron decks to acquire a large amount of cards from Pelin.

Michae

I don't know, I don't want to sound cheeky, but are you certain that the tutorial didn't say those things?
I finished the quest with the elf in blue and I certainly knew what the winning conditions were.
The matches with novice NPCs are really easy, just accumulate gold and power giving cards and pay attention to their prestige levels.

The matches with other players can be harder as some people apparently got the gist of it faster than me, but still I know what's going on and why I'm losing.

Skvysh

Reverb wrote: »

Someone on Reddit asked for a dumbed down explanation of the card game (ELI5) and the top response was las long as a detailed dungeon walkthrough.

While they initially asked about power itself, there was no easy way to explain it and not leave out too much details without going into the game mechanics. I tried to cover some of basic strategies there as well, which is why the post got so long.

Michae wrote: »

The matches with other players can be harder as some people apparently got the gist of it faster than me, but still I know what's going on and why I'm losing.

Definitely Though deck builders aren't a new concept, people (myself included) already had quite a bit of experience with how these type of games work.

Easiest strategy for winning against novice AI is to rush the 4 patrons. The AI only activates the Hlaalu patron and only in some very specific cases, so it's mostly up to you to setup a Pelin patron (buying an agent and having 2 power) and forcing the AI to buy an agent of their own so you can knock it out with the Psijic patron. Of course, some patron picks can make the whole thing a lot easier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzkrwivSeI

Hvíthákarl

This game is super fun but as I already posted on General discussions, it *needs* an optional, interactive extended tutorial that both teaches, shows and makes you do the stuff. Otherwise it's bound to put off ppl who otherwise would be very invested in it.

Scaletho

I finally won an AI match, mainly because I managed to use several Youtube tutorials and other explanations and after lose so many games.

I won by "knock out". I was able to get all Patrons' favor. In fact, I was losing again -- shamefully - but I tried to use the combos to "gain" favors. Eventually I got lucky and made a combo for the last Patron in my favor.

I agree with @Hvíthákarl . ZOS must give us an optional, interactive and extended tutorial of all strategies and ways to won.

TT has a lot of potential and is rewarding but it need more work on straightforward support for new player. If ZOS don't do it, I again say that the number of ESO players interested in the game will be very low.

Reverb

Skvysh wrote: »

[
While they initially asked about power itself, there was no easy way to explain it and not leave out too much details without going into the game mechanics. I tried to cover some of basic strategies there as well, which is why the post got so long.

I meant no criticism of your explanation, which was fantastic. I meant only that the card game is far more complex and time consuming than I’m interested in as a mini game.

Skvysh

Reverb wrote: »

I meant no criticism of your explanation, which was fantastic. I meant only that the card game is far more complex and time consuming than I’m interested in as a mini game.

I guess that's the issue then - treating it like a mini game. Deck builders I've played before spent more time explaining the rules + some of the strategies (though ultimately still being 10-15 min read), but they're by no means a mini game.

It makes sense that for a Chapter, we would get something more than a "mini game", something more complex - but I agree that it's not presented well for newcomers and I am starting to feel like it is consuming a bit too much time to be just a "short, casual tavern game" that they seemed to want to go for. I fear that, after a while, there will be very few people who will enjoy 20-30 minute competitive matches, as part of their daily ESO routine.

Lysette

Tales of Tribute is certainly not a "mini-game" - it is quite tricky to play and I love the variety of strategies, which can even change during a match, because some are more useful at start and some more useful towards the end of the game. It is as well important to keep an eye on the activity of the opponent, like which cards does he prioritize.

And never underestimate an opponent's Hlaalu agents - they are so powerful, once they can be protected with Pelin agents and contracts. He will gain so many more cards at no gold cost, if that agent cannot be removed - and even worse if he has 2 of them on the table, which he will be able to protect due to the high influx of new cards due to these Hlaalu agents. These agents will help his abilities by providing Duke and Celarius cards, and doom is on the horizon with those. Never underestimate Hlaalu agents - they look so harmless, but can be so damaging, if you just let them stay.