Is it time to deal with HOT stacking or rework anti-ball group sets?

Ahk1lleez

HOT stacking is out of hand since hybridization. I can understand the apprehension from the developers side of making specific HOTs not stack but something has to be done here.

Ahk1lleez

Proposed set and ability changes:

Plaguebreak: Detonates upon expiration. The damage from this set is reduced by 1.5% per group member.

Hrothgar: Bump the damage from 13% to 20% and add an enemy in proximity multiplier.

Dark Convergence: This sets range and damage are now reduced by x% per group member.

Inevitable Detonation: Each enemy within the bombs radius increases damage done by 250%

React

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

It is painfully obvious that same-morph heal stacking needs to go. If the concern is that this will affect PVE, then zenimax should add this to battle spirit to avoid PVE entirely.

If you are on the fence about whether or not same morph heals should stack, I urge you to do this. Find a 12 man coordinated group on your server. Follow them to combat, then just stand inside of them as they move around.

You will see 3-5 radiating regens, and 3-5 echoing vigors on you the entire time. Think about the amount of healing per second every member of that group is getting all the time in combat from these two abilities alone. They're also casting things like ritual, springs, burst heals like combat prayer, and proccing sets such as earthgore that heal them aswell.

Not only is this completely unbalanced, allowing people to become unkillable gods that just walk through anything, but from zenimax's own testing we know that this behavior has a negative impact on performance. The stacking of same morph heals is the easiest low-hanging fruit to adjust, and it is ridiculous that we're now going to have to wait a minimum of four more months for this to be addressed since our chapter releases tomorrow.

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Both are good ideas, but even then it won't be enough.

CP system rework/removal from PvP alltogether, battlespirit removal, hammer removal/rework, siege rework, emp system/leaderboard rework, campaign system rework, IC rework, reward overhaul, stat adjustments, traits, several other sets outside of the mentioned ones need a buff to be on par for solo roamers to be useful, rebuff all other proc sets again to be viable, rework mythics (especially snow treaders), movement speed buff stacking needs heavily nerfed, and cc immunities, as well as making debuff useful again to the point where cc tanks are needed for PvP once more, and many more things need work.

Though regarding the healstack topic, the time where groups had to actually have couple tanks running defile/debuff and cc sets were the most fun I had in Cyrodiil. A reliable way to counter healstacking at that time (buff and debuff rework cutting everything in half wasn't implemented back then, as well as no mythics like snow treaders + speed buff stacking that nowadays literally makes anything regarding cc tanks pointless). Would straight play a PvP tank again, if that happens.

ResidentContrarian

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

At one point I had over 6 Radiatings on me when I was "around" a ball group for a keep defense. I can already heal up perfectly with just my own, guess how useful siege was with 5 additional HoTs on me?

Only cold stone posed any real threat, esp. since I can located the dodge, roll, and block buttons.

Defense in PvP should be an active thing IMO, and that anyone can avoid having to dodge, roll, and block, through various methods or combination of: HoT stack, too much damage reduction, OP sets, OP mythics, etc. is a balance problem and not exactly "PvP."

In fact, in its current state, and state of PvP on June 6 2022 I won't consider PvP skillful in the slightest as the problem is only gonna get worse with the massive powercreep, unless they surprise everyone. I doubt it. I'll lose it if I see their solution to the powercreep is nerfing crit again.

WeylandLabs

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

My theory is ZOS is trying to make super ball groups gods and unkillable to kill pvp or they complete dropped the ball ...


At this point in ESO who knows ? 😂

olsborg

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Ballgroups on ravenwatch is an issue and there should be some counters to it there too.

FeedbackOnly

Please don't mess up the skill in pve whatever happens.

React

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Please don't mess up the skill in pve whatever happens.

This is why they simply need to add this to battle spirit (the buff that affects you the entire time you're in PVP).

taugrim

Your poll really needs to have this suggestion (not from me):

Limit radiating regeneration stacks to the 2 highest initial tick value on a given target.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Why you want to punish 12 player who are able to stand vs 50 enemies?

We were the first ball group on ps eu who adapted in no proc and it was such a great time.
They brought out the anti ball groups sets, we used them too.

Remove heal stacking, we add a extra heal and spam burst heal.

How ever you gonna do it, all what happens is zergs will be squishier too and ball groups adapt.
Everything you take off ball groups, you also take of everyone else.

Organisation and coordination will always beat the opposite and thats how it should work.

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Why you want to punish 12 player who are able to stand vs 50 enemies?

We were the first ball group on ps eu who adapted in no proc and it was such a great time.
They brought out the anti ball groups sets, we used them too.

Remove heal stacking, we add a extra heal and spam burst heal.

How ever you gonna do it, all what happens is zergs will be squishier too and ball groups adapt.
Everything you take off ball groups, you also take of everyone else.

Organisation and coordination will always beat the opposite and thats how it should work.

Yea its fun to be in an unkillable LoSing and hot stacking speedy gonzales bombermen ball rolling over literally everyone who crosses its path. Organized and coordinated group play should have its advantage, yes of course thats just fair. But no matter the size of groups and no matter the effort at organizing, playing your cards right shouldn't grant constant aoe pulls with onehits of mass amounts of players at once at literally unstoppable fullspeed and a godmode on top!

How can anyone even defend this mess?

neferpitou73

Where is the leave everything alone and don't touch anything until performance is fixed option?

WreckfulAbandon

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Why you want to punish 12 player who are able to stand vs 50 enemies?

We were the first ball group on ps eu who adapted in no proc and it was such a great time.
They brought out the anti ball groups sets, we used them too.

Remove heal stacking, we add a extra heal and spam burst heal.

How ever you gonna do it, all what happens is zergs will be squishier too and ball groups adapt.
Everything you take off ball groups, you also take of everyone else.

Organisation and coordination will always beat the opposite and thats how it should work.

Great, so no same heal stacking wouldn't be a big deal to your group then, is what you're saying. I would love to see how it shakes out too

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

Proposed set and ability changes:

Plaguebreak: Detonates upon expiration. The damage from this set is reduced by 1.5% per group member.

So you want a solo player in plaguebreak to be able to aoe bomb everyone on a flag from range every 10 seconds?

I think players in general really need to consider what they ask for more carefully. Lets say you finally get rid of stacking heals. Whats next when you still cant kill the group, more proc sets, siege buffs. is 1 button one-shot cyrodiil really what is desired? whoever sees each other first gets the kill.

Lets look at the main reasons groups are especially strong currently:
1) Cyrodiil population size, gone are the 24m groups and the multiple guilds which used to be of some counter. In general unless a small group of players who know how to actually kill groups are present (normally those who play in groups and actually know their weaknesses) there are no longer enough pugs in cyro to make a real impact in most cases.

2) Group tools which used to aide those who weren't as strong such as purge, root and snare removal (rapid spam) have all been nerfed or removed completely making it harder for those who used to be able to achieve some success in larger number play because they were carried by 3-4 players in the group. This didn't impact the groups who were already used to 12m play because they weren't carrying as many players and so had to adapt less.

3) There are so many buffs and group buff sets players can basically invest everything into health and still deal huge damage in bursts. So basically you have enough health to survive not being burst but can still burst others. Include onto this all the proc sets which now stack and burn through players with ease. Synergy damage which scales on the person using the synergy allowing for supports to boost DD's output by huge amounts without the dd sacrificing much.

Healing is sure part of 3 but it's only really 1 small aspect of it.

Ahk1lleez

With HOT stacking as it stands doesn't matter if 5 solo people are having plaguebreak go off every 10 seconds. Just the same as innevitable detonation does absolutely nothing to good ball groups as it is now. The HOT stacking is that strong, even if Plaguebreak were buffed to not only go off on purge, but on expiration. This suggestion is to be in LIEU of making specific heals not stack, not to be combined with HOTs not stacking.

Your protest and that of those who are against any changes tells me you're part of a ball group that doesn't want to lose a clear and sizeable advantage. Miss me with the guilt tripping "So you want" nonsense. This is about the health of pvp in general. If this continues much longer as it is people will move on to other games and ZOS will see significant losses in revenue when they do.

Wolfpaw

HonestLoverr wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Why you want to punish 12 player who are able to stand vs 50 enemies?

We were the first ball group on ps eu who adapted in no proc and it was such a great time.
They brought out the anti ball groups sets, we used them too.

Remove heal stacking, we add a extra heal and spam burst heal.

How ever you gonna do it, all what happens is zergs will be squishier too and ball groups adapt.
Everything you take off ball groups, you also take of everyone else.

Organisation and coordination will always beat the opposite and thats how it should work.

Yea its fun to be in an unkillable LoSing and hot stacking speedy gonzales bombermen ball rolling over literally everyone who crosses its path. Organized and coordinated group play should have its advantage, yes of course thats just fair. But no matter the size of groups and no matter the effort at organizing, playing your cards right shouldn't grant constant aoe pulls with onehits of mass amounts of players at once at literally unstoppable fullspeed and a godmode on top!

How can anyone even defend this mess?

Make/join a ball group. Practice and get better.

Wolfpaw

This is the direction ZOS has pushed for large scale PvP update after update, even more with off-balance, & Occult Overload CP this coming update.

Teamwork, timing, & practice.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

With HOT stacking as it stands doesn't matter if 5 solo people are having plaguebreak go off every 10 seconds. Just the same as innevitable detonation does absolutely nothing to good ball groups as it is now. The HOT stacking is that strong, even if Plaguebreak were buffed to not only go off on purge, but on expiration. This suggestion is to be in LIEU of making specific heals not stack, not to be combined with HOTs not stacking.

Your protest and that of those who are against any changes tells me you're part of a ball group that doesn't want to lose a clear and sizeable advantage. Miss me with the guilt tripping "So you want" nonsense. This is about the health of pvp in general. If this continues much longer as it is people will move on to other games and ZOS will see significant losses in revenue when they do.

Where did I say I was against changes? other than explaining why a suggested change was a bad idea.
I explained why groups were strong which should infer as to why your changes aren't good and what is actually a good idea. I would suggest you take another look at it.

Also if 5 solo players with 5 hot's on them are standing on a flag and plaguebreak procs on all of them they will die, why do you think groups actually use it to kill solo players which are stacking with their factions?

Additionally groups and players disappear from the game because of changes that ZOS has made to make it harder to group (as well as the terrible performance of the last 6 years). idk if you remember all of the large guilds that used to play but I do - at least those from when I was playing on PC EU and PC NA
(lets take PC NA for example) you used to have 3-4 24m on each faction each night + pugs + 1-2 'ball groups'. Now you'd be lucky to see 1-2 ball groups and a handful of pugs.

Ahk1lleez

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

With HOT stacking as it stands doesn't matter if 5 solo people are having plaguebreak go off every 10 seconds. Just the same as innevitable detonation does absolutely nothing to good ball groups as it is now. The HOT stacking is that strong, even if Plaguebreak were buffed to not only go off on purge, but on expiration. This suggestion is to be in LIEU of making specific heals not stack, not to be combined with HOTs not stacking.

Your protest and that of those who are against any changes tells me you're part of a ball group that doesn't want to lose a clear and sizeable advantage. Miss me with the guilt tripping "So you want" nonsense. This is about the health of pvp in general. If this continues much longer as it is people will move on to other games and ZOS will see significant losses in revenue when they do.

Where did I say I was against changes? other than explaining why a suggested change was a bad idea.
I explained why groups were strong which should infer as to why your changes aren't good and what is actually a good idea. I would suggest you take another look at it.

Also if 5 solo players with 5 hot's on them are standing on a flag and plaguebreak procs on all of them they will die, why do you think groups actually use it to kill solo players which are stacking with their factions?

Additionally groups and players disappear from the game because of changes that ZOS has made to make it harder to group (as well as the terrible performance of the last 6 years). idk if you remember all of the large guilds that used to play but I do - at least those from when I was playing on PC EU and PC NA
(lets take PC NA for example) you used to have 3-4 24m on each faction each night + pugs + 1-2 'ball groups'. Now you'd be lucky to see 1-2 ball groups and a handful of pugs.

You're trying to show how this could potentially be imbalanced but in a game of NB and Necro bombers being able to wipe out entire groups by themselves 5 plaguebreaks used by 5 solo players being able to take out 5 people who were unwilling to spread out within 10 SECONDS when seeing the proc doesn't exactly move me to say that it expiring on expiration would be imbalanced. I expect vehement disagreement with my proposed changes coming from someone from Drac, but to ignore already existing mechanics currently in game while trying to justify your point shows your bias. At least plaguebreak even buffed would have some sort of counterplay....simply spread out. 8 meters is not that far. The tactics most groups use with dark convergence and necro ults? Not so much. You can be spread out and still get pulled...which is why most ball groups are running an abundance of those exact builds.

Tell us you don't want things to change without telling us you don't want things to change. We understand you don't want competition and you love easy kills on those who are unorganized. There's a reason you continue to target one faction a majority of the time. It's plain for all to see.

Ahk1lleez

Detonating on expiration rather. For some reason I'm unable to edit my posts anymore...

And as soon as I say I can't edit....suddenly I'm able to again. Funny how that works.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

With HOT stacking as it stands doesn't matter if 5 solo people are having plaguebreak go off every 10 seconds. Just the same as innevitable detonation does absolutely nothing to good ball groups as it is now. The HOT stacking is that strong, even if Plaguebreak were buffed to not only go off on purge, but on expiration. This suggestion is to be in LIEU of making specific heals not stack, not to be combined with HOTs not stacking.

Your protest and that of those who are against any changes tells me you're part of a ball group that doesn't want to lose a clear and sizeable advantage. Miss me with the guilt tripping "So you want" nonsense. This is about the health of pvp in general. If this continues much longer as it is people will move on to other games and ZOS will see significant losses in revenue when they do.

Where did I say I was against changes? other than explaining why a suggested change was a bad idea.
I explained why groups were strong which should infer as to why your changes aren't good and what is actually a good idea. I would suggest you take another look at it.

Also if 5 solo players with 5 hot's on them are standing on a flag and plaguebreak procs on all of them they will die, why do you think groups actually use it to kill solo players which are stacking with their factions?

Additionally groups and players disappear from the game because of changes that ZOS has made to make it harder to group (as well as the terrible performance of the last 6 years). idk if you remember all of the large guilds that used to play but I do - at least those from when I was playing on PC EU and PC NA
(lets take PC NA for example) you used to have 3-4 24m on each faction each night + pugs + 1-2 'ball groups'. Now you'd be lucky to see 1-2 ball groups and a handful of pugs.

I expect vehement disagreement with my proposed changes coming from someone from Drac, but to ignore already existing mechanics currently in game while trying to justify your point shows your bias

If you want to talk about ignoring existing mechanics lets talk about it.
Extremely optimized group play is not only encouraged but is actually systematically buffed by ZOS almost every patch for the past 5+ years yet you consider this as unintended and want to remove core game mechanics such as stacking HoT and remove the small counterplay options which exist from sets or imbalance sets completely so that they one shot large groups of players.

Cyrodiil is a Capture the Flag gamemode, the result of your suggestions would be to prevent players from capturing the objectives by punishing them every time they stack to try and do so. As a group we have learned to spread out or mitigate damage for years but solo players and pug groups don't know these mechanics and generally aren't willing to put any thought into learning them these days because the reward for learning is non existent when someone can simply complain about someone being better 'should be nerfed or must be hacking' in order to experience some small win. Compared to the past where groups and players would try and improve because they had a lot of peers and competitors doing so, as well as a shallower learning curve.

Dark Convergence has an even easier counterplay option compared to spreading out, just hold down the right mouse button and it can't pull you. So if this was about counterplay ease then the argument would still be invalid. Counterplay is not 'Abandon your objective'. Counterplay is something proactive which can be done to mitigate an issue whilst acomplishing your objective.
For example when they added the fact that you need to roll dodge not block Sorc's rune stun. This is a 'different counterplay' option which you can execute whilst still attacking the sorc.

Imo plaguebreak could be made stronger sure, but if it is then it should be avoidable.
If it was a floor effect which could be stepped out of I would be fine with it exploding on expiration as well as on purge.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Whatever is in the game will be used to max effect by organised groups. How cant you understand that ?

Nemeliom

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Could we get ZOS into this conversation? We need them to know this is happening.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Adrikoth @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_ConnorG

Amottica

Change heal stacking and Grand healing becomes the heal for the so-called ball groups. And that should affect everyone in the circle up to the cap. It would still be a formidable situation for the group that is less effective.

Also, Zenimax knows what is happening. They do not live in a bubble. They also can see possible unintended effects.

BazOfWar

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

HonestLoverr wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Why you want to punish 12 player who are able to stand vs 50 enemies?

We were the first ball group on ps eu who adapted in no proc and it was such a great time.
They brought out the anti ball groups sets, we used them too.

Remove heal stacking, we add a extra heal and spam burst heal.

How ever you gonna do it, all what happens is zergs will be squishier too and ball groups adapt.
Everything you take off ball groups, you also take of everyone else.

Organisation and coordination will always beat the opposite and thats how it should work.

Yea its fun to be in an unkillable LoSing and hot stacking speedy gonzales bombermen ball rolling over literally everyone who crosses its path. Organized and coordinated group play should have its advantage, yes of course thats just fair. But no matter the size of groups and no matter the effort at organizing, playing your cards right shouldn't grant constant aoe pulls with onehits of mass amounts of players at once at literally unstoppable fullspeed and a godmode on top!

How can anyone even defend this mess?

Well said @HonestLoverr

karekiz

Why punish good players for synergizing with each other instead of zerging around?

Nemeliom

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Can ZOS PLEASE do something about cross healing? This is terrible. Can't beat a 5 groups because they heal 12k per second...

ShadowProc

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

Proposed set and ability changes:

Plaguebreak: Detonates upon expiration. The damage from this set is reduced by 1.5% per group member.

So you want a solo player in plaguebreak to be able to aoe bomb everyone on a flag from range every 10 seconds?

I think players in general really need to consider what they ask for more carefully. Lets say you finally get rid of stacking heals. Whats next when you still cant kill the group, more proc sets, siege buffs. is 1 button one-shot cyrodiil really what is desired? whoever sees each other first gets the kill.

Lets look at the main reasons groups are especially strong currently:
1) Cyrodiil population size, gone are the 24m groups and the multiple guilds which used to be of some counter. In general unless a small group of players who know how to actually kill groups are present (normally those who play in groups and actually know their weaknesses) there are no longer enough pugs in cyro to make a real impact in most cases.

2) Group tools which used to aide those who weren't as strong such as purge, root and snare removal (rapid spam) have all been nerfed or removed completely making it harder for those who used to be able to achieve some success in larger number play because they were carried by 3-4 players in the group. This didn't impact the groups who were already used to 12m play because they weren't carrying as many players and so had to adapt less.

3) There are so many buffs and group buff sets players can basically invest everything into health and still deal huge damage in bursts. So basically you have enough health to survive not being burst but can still burst others. Include onto this all the proc sets which now stack and burn through players with ease. Synergy damage which scales on the person using the synergy allowing for supports to boost DD's output by huge amounts without the dd sacrificing much.

Healing is sure part of 3 but it's only really 1 small aspect of it.

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

pleximus

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

[/quote]

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable. [/quote]

People in ball groups are selfish. They don't care that they're destroying the server performance and gameplay of others (who have ALSO paid for the game).

neferpitou73

pleximus wrote: »

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable. [/quote]

People in ball groups are selfish. They don't care that they're destroying the server performance and gameplay of others (who have ALSO paid for the game).[/quote]

TIL that I am selfish for wanting to play with my friends.

Seriously I don't get these threads, people just complain and when actual group leaders come here to make more sensible suggestions to nerf groups they get driven out with torches and pitchforks.

Maybe the people that run and design these groups have more insight in ways to nerf them than solo players or pugs.