Oakensoul is OP again

WordsOfPower

Major Heroism by itself is really worrying. When combined with all the other buffs, this ring is just really OP. Someone in my guild brought it up to me two days ago and I said that I thought it had been nerfed, when it went from completely OP to not much. I thought that the dev notes for that change were sensible.

I cannot fathom how they thought it needed these huge boosts, all of a sudden.

When people tell me that this is being done deliberately to sell High Isle, its difficult for me to form any alternative theory.

When the devs design a set, they must obviously have some sense of what is balanced. They might not have a mathematical formula, but no set has come before which provides this number of buffs in ONE piece.

You can still wear a Monster, and 1 five piece and 1 four piece, so the max that mythic should be able to provide is clearly calculable.

Sithis is strong, but has a strong drawback too.

In PvP, the backbar is mainly a buff bar anyway for most builds. So having only one bar but having those buffs always active is not really balanced at all.

There is a video made by TheRealGodzilla in which he has 80% uptime of Corrosive Armor.

I can think of many builds where cheaper ultimates can be spammed almost at will.

The meta that one can imagine where ultimate is so cheaply available is going to be crazy bursty and very low TTK.

i would argue that this ring cannot go live in its current form.

Really not sure why Zenimax would encourage 1 bar builds to this level.

Even more confused as to why after sensibly adjusting it down, it gets tuned back up to these extreme levels.

divnyi

Backbar isn't used for buffs only. It is also used for utility and healing.
For backbar weapon set. More often than not, of other type, than front bar.

Losing backbar most likely not gonna be meta for any group gameplay, because you'll lack cross-heals.

Merforum

It is interesting that every single thing people keep saying they can do with OAKEN they can already do with a 2 bar setup even better. Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

taugrim

Merforum wrote: »

Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

If you think people didn't wear Crimson Twilight, you either weren't active in PVP in the 2nd half 2020 to early 2021 or you have a poor memory.

There was a period of time where multiple people in every BG were using this set. This was back when procs had set values instead of scaling, and the tooltip said 8k damage per target IIRC. It was nuts.

I occasionally see tanky builds running Crimson Twilight in BGs but given that it now scales with Health and most damaging procs scale off highest offensive stats, Crimson Twilight is far from meta.

Rhaegar75

taugrim wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

If you think people didn't wear Crimson Twilight, you either weren't active in PVP in the 2nd half 2020 to early 2021 or you have a poor memory.

There was a period of time where multiple people in every BG were using this set. This was back when procs had set values instead of scaling, and the tooltip said 8k damage per target IIRC. It was nuts.

I occasionally see tanky builds running Crimson Twilight in BGs but given that it now scales with Health and most damaging procs scale off highest offensive stats, Crimson Twilight is far from meta.

Absolutely!!!

Especially BGs were absolutely packed with Proc Sets.
Crimson was very heavily used as it didn’t scale with health and used to generate easy proc damage.
Back in the midst of the ‘proc metà’ there was an actual infestation of CT

merpins

It's not going to be meta, and builds that do compete in the meta using this will be bursty glass canons. Glass canons in that they won't have much in the way of self heals. I'd say it could see a home on one-bar invincible tank builds, but there are better mythics for that. So It'll probably just end up being an off-meta niche ring that mid-tier players will use in BGs for dailies. That's about it, outside of the pvp players that actually use one-bar builds due to disabilities.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

It's not going to be meta, and builds that do compete in the meta using this will be bursty glass canons. Glass canons in that they won't have much in the way of self heals. I'd say it could see a home on one-bar invincible tank builds, but there are better mythics for that. So It'll probably just end up being an off-meta niche ring that mid-tier players will use in BGs for dailies. That's about it, outside of the pvp players that actually use one-bar builds due to disabilities.

I think you are seriously under estimating what this ring can and will do for PVP builds. I've already seen quite a few theory crafters and content creators put together some potentially ridiculous builds around the ring.

Tommy_The_Gun

Imho Oakensoul with all of those buffs will actually be way stronger than the initial "raw stats" version. I know, this item was too strong, but imho it was not as game breaking as it will be now.

Simple example would be an Incap spam build I made on PTS. Major Heroism made it possible. On top of that I have major force & as a NB more crit damage & guaranteed crit chance. I hope I don't have to explain how much this is busted - especially if you will utilize proc sets - like Caluurion that will crit for more & more often. Same with other op sets like DC or PB.

A "red warning flag" imho is the fact that Oakensoul basically gives stronger buffs than all of the WW buffs & passives combined. With Oakensoul, you are basically a WW, but in human form and you can still use all of the abilities you want and other than having 1 bar, you don't have any other drawback that WW has. So forget WWs using this (& being OP as some people claimed they will be lol). Non WW 1 bar build will be way stronger than WW could ever hope to be (Kinda making WW even more pointes tbh. Why use it, if you can just slot Oakensoul ?).

ResidentContrarian

Merforum wrote: »

It is interesting that every single thing people keep saying they can do with OAKEN they can already do with a 2 bar setup even better. Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

False.

katorga

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Major Heroism by itself is really worrying.

There is a video made by TheRealGodzilla in which he has 80% uptime of Corrosive Armor.

I can think of many builds where cheaper ultimates can be spammed almost at will.

The meta that one can imagine where ultimate is so cheaply available is going to be crazy bursty and very low TTK.

i would argue that this ring cannot go live in its current form.

Really not sure why Zenimax would encourage 1 bar builds to this level.

You can spam cheap ultimates that right now, without the ring.

IMO, Oakensoul is a solo item. In a group I get almost all the buffs from myself and the group. So I lose a back bar for nothing.

BG's maybe, because a 4 man group probably lacks the full buff capability.

Solo maybe, but you are at such a disadvantage solo, why?

WordsOfPower

My thoughts are from a small group or solo POV. PvZerg is the worst part of the game IMO.

In BGs and 1vX, this thing is going to be crazy strong.

All of you that are opining in the other direction, I hope you're right, but that number of buffs on a single item is extremely unhealthy for the game IMO

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

It is interesting that every single thing people keep saying they can do with OAKEN they can already do with a 2 bar setup even better. Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

Love how people rewrite history, NOBODY was using crimson effectively and it was never more than a slight nuisance. Some like me tried to use Crimson many times for BGs, it was just bad. The damage gives a massive 2 second warning and obvious visual. Good PVPers never got caught in the explosion.

But SORRY I should never mention stuff like that as I know if sends people on a tangent. Back to OAKEN as I said in another thread.
"There really should be NO complaints. The ring will have several effects IMO

1. top end PVPer who are used to 2 bars and way better that way will never use it
2. mid level PVPer without disabilities will have TWO options, continue using 2 bar or be about the same with 1 bar
3. disabled and anyone who struggles with 2 bars will have large boost, probably enough to compete with group #2
4. beginner PVPer will have biggest boost but still be killed easily, but be able to get to group 2, 3 FASTER and maybe even jump to group 1 because they won't be SO bad they the quit before they 'git gud'

So ironically the ring gives group 2 more options for builds which you would think was a WIN, but they don't like it ONLY because group 3 will be competitive (which you would also think was a WIN since they keep talking about competition). And as I said before 1vXer will hate this ring because the X will potentially be much stronger.

BTW I am so bad with bar swap I would have used the ring in any form so far for PVP. PVE maybe not the nerfed one. Current version I think I would use it in most activities.

EDIT playing BGs with the sweatlords the past week I can say that something like RAT is going to be mandatory with all the mDK snare spammer, so that is 1 slot gone almost for sure. If using ring with WW might go with one of the snare removal"

WordsOfPower

I don't expect your comments on disabilities will probably go down very well.

Vaoh

It’s totally broken but ZOS wants to sell the chapter to PvPers. Not much else to it.

rbfrgsp

WordsOfPower wrote: »

i would argue that this ring cannot go live in its current form.

Any time you see that phrase posted on the forum it's a surefire sign that whatever new item/feature they are talking about is definitely going to go live.

WordsOfPower

Haha you're probably right.

Too bad reverse psychology doesn't work...

"I really hope they don't cancel the card game"

ResidentContrarian

rbfrgsp wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

i would argue that this ring cannot go live in its current form.

Any time you see that phrase posted on the forum it's a surefire sign that whatever new item/feature they are talking about is definitely going to go live.

The sad part is that people are seriously trying to distort reality and pretend a ring that gives you all those buffs -- which you can't get on any class even with a full backbar + sets at 100 percent uptime (and even if you could you would have to pay for it with sustain), is somehow balanced.

People would choke if Daedric Trickery gave you 100% uptime on those buffs and that's a 5-piece with mostly defensive buffs. Yet the mythic is okay?

The "one piece set" will simply increase DPS tremendously because it improves sustain, gives 100% uptime, and it really has no real cost once you stack all the upsides vs. downsides.

The argument that it's for accessibility makes zero sense, because ZOS is the one nerfing everyone every patch, and when they release this "one piece set" what are they going to do when DPS increases substantially, nerf everyone without it to compensate? That just makes things more inaccessible in the end.

In PvP spaces, the item has zero replacement as it surpasses the power of multiple 5-set effects and 2-piece helms no matter how you try to slice it, and will lead to a super burst-tanky meta that will be accessible only if you have the mythic.

It's really an "I win" button in the hands of anyone that isn't 'disabled' or whatever group anyone wants to try to use to justify something completely out of line.

If accessibility is needed in PvP to that extent, then no one can say PvP is competitive -- not that it is on live right now anyway since sets continue to contribute most to the end result of any encounter and they refuse to reign in the power of certain items and sets that we all know will be used in conjunction with this ring like frenzied momentum.

What ZOS doesn't understand, and I've said it before, is that when players notice a huge immovable gulf because of bad balancing decisions they simply will not log in and play or go do something else because its NOT fun.

But anyone can continue to defend the mythic and if it goes live enjoy the empty servers that just got populated in PvP. I will be watching the show.

Vetixio

It just needs a line saying it doesn’t work with Werewolves cause we don’t need a Werewolf meta 2.0 no one will enjoy that 🤢

Elrond87

ya its like wearing Chudan, Spell power, Kinra, Drake rush, treasure hunter, rattlecage 5th bonus within one item with a 100% uptime of "aggressive warhorn" seems ridiculous to me, whats going to be run in dungeons, like 2 heavy hit dk builds with the tank and healer giving major slayer and minor courage

xDeusEJRx

katorga wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Major Heroism by itself is really worrying.

There is a video made by TheRealGodzilla in which he has 80% uptime of Corrosive Armor.

I can think of many builds where cheaper ultimates can be spammed almost at will.

The meta that one can imagine where ultimate is so cheaply available is going to be crazy bursty and very low TTK.

i would argue that this ring cannot go live in its current form.

Really not sure why Zenimax would encourage 1 bar builds to this level.

You can spam cheap ultimates that right now, without the ring.

IMO, Oakensoul is a solo item. In a group I get almost all the buffs from myself and the group. So I lose a back bar for nothing.

BG's maybe, because a 4 man group probably lacks the full buff capability.

Solo maybe, but you are at such a disadvantage solo, why?

You're looking at it from wrong perspective, it is a solo item indeed. It's meant to uphold solo players but in group play it's busted, because reality in group PVP, you don't need a back bar. You can be healed by any random player because of cross healing so if you play zerg fights you don't have to worry too much about healing because a random breath of life, radiating regen, purge will come to save you from pugs. That plus extra buffs you can get from groups, you can 100% afford to lose your second bar when you're in a group. It only becomes difficult playing solo. Imagine being a snipe build who only uses poison inject and lethal arrow following a 20 man zerg? Where's the downside? You have no back bar but that means squat when you're running with 20 other players who can come save you.
It's pretty OP in group play/zerg settings

xDeusEJRx

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It is interesting that every single thing people keep saying they can do with OAKEN they can already do with a 2 bar setup even better. Reminds me of all the Crimson vids I saw while NO ONE actually wore it. The ring is never going to be Meta, but will make a lot more competition between mid level PVPers.

Love how people rewrite history, NOBODY was using crimson effectively and it was never more than a slight nuisance. Some like me tried to use Crimson many times for BGs, it was just bad. The damage gives a massive 2 second warning and obvious visual. Good PVPers never got caught in the explosion.

But SORRY I should never mention stuff like that as I know if sends people on a tangent. Back to OAKEN as I said in another thread.
"There really should be NO complaints. The ring will have several effects IMO

1. top end PVPer who are used to 2 bars and way better that way will never use it
2. mid level PVPer without disabilities will have TWO options, continue using 2 bar or be about the same with 1 bar
3. disabled and anyone who struggles with 2 bars will have large boost, probably enough to compete with group #2
4. beginner PVPer will have biggest boost but still be killed easily, but be able to get to group 2, 3 FASTER and maybe even jump to group 1 because they won't be SO bad they the quit before they 'git gud'

So ironically the ring gives group 2 more options for builds which you would think was a WIN, but they don't like it ONLY because group 3 will be competitive (which you would also think was a WIN since they keep talking about competition). And as I said before 1vXer will hate this ring because the X will potentially be much stronger.

BTW I am so bad with bar swap I would have used the ring in any form so far for PVP. PVE maybe not the nerfed one. Current version I think I would use it in most activities.

EDIT playing BGs with the sweatlords the past week I can say that something like RAT is going to be mandatory with all the mDK snare spammer, so that is 1 slot gone almost for sure. If using ring with WW might go with one of the snare removal"

What you're saying is not necessarily how things will go down, because unfortunately most PVP is not solo pvp or 1v1 pvp.

Most is group PVP and the ring completely destroys group pvp dynamic with how overloaded it is, you can afford to lose a bar if you're running around with 20 other pugs who can stack cross heals to save you at any time. Imagine being a snipe ganker build using oaken and 2 damage sets in a 20 man zerg, not only do you have a big zerg to face tank any danger that comes to you, they can also save you with heals making it so you can free cast your snipes away with no worries in the world.

Which really just makes mid level and low tier players worse because larger groups and ball groups will just become stronger, it just upsets this "pvp-tier" scale you set for yourself

Tommy_The_Gun

Vetixio wrote: »

It just needs a line saying it doesn’t work with Werewolves cause we don’t need a Werewolf meta 2.0 no one will enjoy that 🤢

But it wont be that good for a WW in 1st place... I mean in WW form, you will get Major Courage, Protection and Force (that last one may not be as good since you will need decent crit chance). Other Mythics like Gaze of Sithis or Shapeshifter may be actually way better for WW.

I am rather thinking that Okensoul will make any non-WW builds way too strong/broken. You are basically getting stronger buffs than WW has as passives, but you don't have any of the drawbacks (aside from 1 bar) that WW has. You are not limited to a preset of skills. You don't take more dmg from poison & fighters guild. You have access to all of the passives that are disabled in WW form (class, weapon, guild etc). You don't have an expensive magicka costing heal. You have access to CC immunity skills. All of the things that are are normally there when it comes to WW "balancing factors" are gone.

So why would any one sain run WW next patch, if you can have all of those juicy passives & access to better, non-restricted skills in human form ? Idk. Maybe some hardcore WW players will, but I can not simply see any clear benefit. Maybe only looks & RP.

Other builds look way more scary if you think about it. DC & PB proc sets. Necro bombers. Ulit spam DK builds. NB khajiit gankers (maybe even bow gankers). Ball groups. Templar Jab builds. 1-bar Sorcs. Vamp & Necro transinformation builds.

All of those things.... and people are worried about Werewolves... I mean I get it... but... no I take it back.

I don't get it...

TechMaybeHic

It is in fact, super powerful for what it gives you alone. And then barely anyone even talks about opportunity cost it saves you from not having to buff. Those saved GCDs are quite an advantage in a fight. It will be like launch time DKs in bat swarm for everyone, so long as they buy the expansion

TechMaybeHic

lol Just was fooling around and id a build. 3 potentate, 1 traine, Oakensoul, bloodspawn, 5 Daring Corsair, on a nord DK with corrosive. LOL

Kory

Vaoh wrote: »

It’s totally broken but ZOS wants to sell the chapter to PvPers. Not much else to it.

Yeah in that case people are gonna buy the expansion, farm the leads to acquire the mythic. Then it will get nerfed again, so you waste time and money.

geonsocal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So why would any one sane run WW next patch,

I don't get it...

it's pretty hard to optimize, i'll give you that...spent about twenty minutes or so at nikel transformed, we owned it, and there was some mindless/pointless 3 way fighting going on around the outpost...no sieging, just fighting...

by and large though, the werewolf "playstyle" is pretty niche (weekends and lots of bodies)...if you're focused on working the map, not really that useful...

i have four active werewolf builds, i don't usually transform that often though anymore...

MEBengalsFan2001

I can see melee based Templar using this.

merpins

PVPers in here going mental about an item that will see use for a week, then no one will ever use it again. I can think of one outlier case where it might be used thanks to the Major Heroism buff (a buff the ring doesn't really need imo), but outside that, I can't see it being used.

Someone that uses this ring in PVP is going to lose out on 20% effectiveness both in PVP and PVE, except at early to mid-level gameplay. If you're a mid-level PVPer, you might be shaking in your boots because now some people will do a bit better in short burst fights, but that won't change the fact that they're now gonna be squishy without their self heals. In PVE, everyone is theory-crafting these super builds that do a ton of damage... you know, 100k damage. No end-game player worth their salt is going to touch this ring because it doesn't do top-end damage. You're sacrificing damage for ease of access, and end game players aren't looking for ease of access, they're looking for damage.

I'd say it's a little bit overtuned. It doesn't need the Herosim buff at all; in fact, that's probably what's going to get ZoS to hit the ring with the sledgehammer again. They should remove this buff, and not replace it with anything. If they really wanted to keep it, lowering it to Minor would be better, but again, it doesn't need the buff. Major Heroism is what's going to get this item abused in pvp, most likely.

divnyi

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I'd say it's a little bit overtuned. It doesn't need the Herosim buff at all; in fact, that's probably what's going to get ZoS to hit the ring with the sledgehammer again. They should remove this buff, and not replace it with anything. If they really wanted to keep it, lowering it to Minor would be better, but again, it doesn't need the buff. Major Heroism is what's going to get this item abused in pvp, most likely.

Agree

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

If you're a mid-level PVPer, you might be shaking in your boots because now some people will do a bit better in short burst fights, but that won't change the fact that they're now gonna be squishy without their self heals.

It's not that self-heals will take the hit, it will be crossheals. Unless you roll healing staff as your only weapon, you are gonna be only healing yourself and only occasionally others with burst heals, compared to stacks of radiant ppl used to have.

Maxdevil

Sources of major heroism are rare. Always having this buff seems overpowered

MEBengalsFan2001

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

PVPers in here going mental about an item that will see use for a week, then no one will ever use it again. I can think of one outlier case where it might be used thanks to the Major Heroism buff (a buff the ring doesn't really need imo), but outside that, I can't see it being used.

Someone that uses this ring in PVP is going to lose out on 20% effectiveness both in PVP and PVE, except at early to mid-level gameplay. If you're a mid-level PVPer, you might be shaking in your boots because now some people will do a bit better in short burst fights, but that won't change the fact that they're now gonna be squishy without their self heals. In PVE, everyone is theory-crafting these super builds that do a ton of damage... you know, 100k damage. No end-game player worth their salt is going to touch this ring because it doesn't do top-end damage. You're sacrificing damage for ease of access, and end game players aren't looking for ease of access, they're looking for damage.

I'd say it's a little bit overtuned. It doesn't need the Herosim buff at all; in fact, that's probably what's going to get ZoS to hit the ring with the sledgehammer again. They should remove this buff, and not replace it with anything. If they really wanted to keep it, lowering it to Minor would be better, but again, it doesn't need the buff. Major Heroism is what's going to get this item abused in pvp, most likely.

The 100K Pet Sorc one bar build will greatly benefit from this ring.