ONE thing you really don't like about the writing in ESO?

Elsonso

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

ESO is not really an RPG. It is an action adventure game, and the stories are more along the lines of what you would expect from a short film or movie.

psychotrip

Elsonso wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

ESO is not really an RPG. It is an action adventure game, and the stories are more along the lines of what you would expect from a short film or movie.

Wow. We're really doing this now, aren't we? So the self-described MMORPG is not an RPG, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

Why are ES fans so good at gaslighting ourselves?

Elsonso

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

ESO is not really an RPG. It is an action adventure game, and the stories are more along the lines of what you would expect from a short film or movie.

Wow. We're really doing this now, aren't we? So the self-described MMORPG is not an RPG, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

I expect it to be an Elder Scrolls game. While it is more "RPG" than many others trying to lay claim to "MMORPG", calling it an "RPG" doesn't make it one. It is better described as an action adventure game.

psychotrip

Elsonso wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

ESO is not really an RPG. It is an action adventure game, and the stories are more along the lines of what you would expect from a short film or movie.

Wow. We're really doing this now, aren't we? So the self-described MMORPG is not an RPG, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

I expect it to be an Elder Scrolls game. While it is more "RPG" than many others trying to lay claim to "MMORPG", calling it an "RPG" doesn't make it one. It is better described as an action adventure game.

If we're really willing to accept that The Elder Scrolls isn't an RPG anymore, then this franchise really has fallen.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Two things:

1. Disposable lore: I couldn't care less to read that Goblins prefer toe rings made of Shablablah stones, or the thousandth unique combination of macguffins will open the ayleid door/activate the portal/attune me to the thingybob so I can commune with the ghost/free the prisoner/thing the thingy. Its "technically" lore, but lore that just forms a big pile of whatever that no one can care about, or will ever think about again, writers included. Why, in a world of monsters, magic and deep mysteries am I chopping wood to burn apples?

I want the lore to be part of a "lore system", to feel like it fits in to the lore matrix already established, that will be integral, referenced, useful and interesting.

2. Characters of various races that have no sense of racial identity; I love that the writers like to tunnel down to the idea that no matter who you are, where you live, at the end of the day a farmer is just a farmer, and her concerns are going to be immediate and recognisable, but I think that the writing misses a lot of nuance when you can take any character, stop them saying "fetching fetcher" and they feel like every other villager in the world.

Not to be that guy, but this is something the old games did better. I've mentioned before how much Daggerfall and Morrowind try to address how magic affects the culture, politics, and daily life of an otherwise "human" society.

Redguard did this surprisingly well too, in its own janky way. The races feel distinct and well-characterized. Dram may be the most "dunmer" a dunmer has ever been. Pretty sure he was some sort of magical clone as well. The khajiit even speak their own language to the player! At times it almost feels like fantasy star wars, with all these clashing cultures that feel really alien and distinct, but still feel like people. Yeah, the game itself sucked, but the world it presented was peak ES.

Fast forward to ESO. A pig farmer is a pig farmer. How interesting...

Dr_Con

Not sure if bug or not, but there are two instances of abnar tharn... the prologue quest for abnar tharn in elseweyr and for the main story quest. It's more of a continuity thing that bugs me. At launch, they wouldn't have had this issue, but as time progresses and they reuse the same characters, these sorts of things happen. I'm sure in Western Skyrim there's a version of Lyris who shouldn't exist if you skipped the tutorial (for some reason, my character gets placed in western skyrim when i create it now. Go figure)

Edit: I will add that Abnar he exists in both places at once in the mage's guild in stonefalls. The prologue version of him should come after the story line happens for continuity reasons, till then they should tell players that there will be continuity issues if they don't play the main story line first.

Also, not a fan of the anti-vampire stuff at vendors. I just saved your whole city/continent and you're going to refuse me services? I could be the most lauded hero and a brokeass vendor won't sell me their wares. Vampirism doesn't make sense in its current form, but if I do all the quests in a zone I should be allowed to use common vendors if vampirism stage 4. I have the crown store vendor but still, it's annoying as hell.

And the girl screaming "here ye cardsharps and collectors" at people, trying to get them to go to a place they can't access, and she doesn't stop. it's annoying af and makes me want to mute my volume. It would go away if i did the quest or if i accepted it but I am usually near 25 quests and would rather not drop one.

so mostly, the prologue stuff is what irks me.

psychotrip

My main issue is with the overall tone and vibe of the worldbuilding.

I deleted a *much* longer post on this because I was just rambling and listing off decade-old examples. I'll try to be more concise here:

Tamriel often feels confused as to what it was, what it is, and what it's trying to be. At times the game presents itself as a gritty, low-fantasy war story, but the plot and dialogue just cant sell it. Other times it tries to be high fantasy like the old games, but it just cant commit to it.

Characters feel like Joss Whedon stand-ins tossed into PG-13 Game of Thrones. At other times they're more like YA novel characters (Mary Sue Ayrenn comes to mind). God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

Political events which could be fascinatingly complex, filled with intrigue, controversy, and potential questlines, often feel oversimplified and brushed aside.

The lore sometimes feels inconsistent, even within the same game. I'll never forget the quest where an altmer tells me that summoning ANY daedra, even an atronach, is a death sentence. He said this to my Altmer sorcerer. Altmer have bonuses to conjuration in the singleplayer games, and have even proudly written books on daedric magic. I had to take a break from the game when I saw that.

The game sometimes introduces high-fantasy concepts that feel right at home in the older games, but they seem so afraid of letting the world feel "too weird" so they cant go all out with it. Outside of a few provinces, Tamriel just doesnt feel as fantastical or strange as I had been told it was when I first got into the franchise.

The world we got instead just isn't as inspired IMO.

Edit: Also, argonians being in the Ebonheart Pact will always feel gross to me, but I've said my piece on that elsewhere.

FluffyBird

I don't like how the writing quality steadily goes down.
Every new main story is blander, more dumbed down, more "we couldn't be bothered, so here's some recurring characters fanservice with lore inconsistencies on top instead of actually captivating plot" than the previous.

You know what, I really wanted some more Ravenwatch content or some news about papa Abnur. After High Isle I don't want them to ever touch my favorite characters.

Jazraena

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

Jazraena

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

Galadriel likely wouldn't have worked, simply because a Galadriel-type character wouldn't have built up the Dominion like that, or involved themselves into the Three Banners; though an older, more subtle Queen would have certainly been possible with some alternate imperfections.

But for the story as is, Ayrenn makes a lot of sense, in particular how her rise and actions triggered an internal feud with traditionalists. No, ZOS understood Altmer very well there; they just had succession go to an atypical Queen - such is the way of hereditary monarchies.

What bothers me about her in turn is rather that it's... incomplete. Ayrenn's story is the perfect setup for a villain origin, but since the war doesn't go anywhere, it's sort of just... there.

JonnAndCo

Perhaps the problem is they want every character to be likable now. In the original main story, I wanted to kick Abner in the arse, but now he's THE hero that saved Tamriel. Perhaps they are trying too hard, and should create disagreeable and/or annoying characters that elicit a strong reaction. This could add a lot of depth to their story telling.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

Galadriel likely wouldn't have worked, simply because a Galadriel-type character wouldn't have built up the Dominion like that, or involved themselves into the Three Banners; though an older, more subtle Queen would have certainly been possible with some alternate imperfections.

But for the story as is, Ayrenn makes a lot of sense, in particular how her rise and actions triggered an internal feud with traditionalists. No, ZOS understood Altmer very well there; they just had succession go to an atypical Queen - such is the way of hereditary monarchies.

What bothers me about her in turn is rather that it's... incomplete. Ayrenn's story is the perfect setup for a villain origin, but since the war doesn't go anywhere, it's sort of just... there.

You're taking the Galadriel part too literally. Get creative with it. My point is I wanted a wise, mysterious, elf-queen with some character depth instead of...what we got.

I wholesale disagree that ZOS portrays the Altmer well. They portray generic high elves decently I suppose, if thats what you're into. Like I said I would've preferred somthing between their more "alien" lore from the old games, and the more grounded portrayal from Oblivion and Skyrim. Instead they just made them pointy eared snobs living in Disney's magic kingdom.

But you're right: Ayrenn is incomplete. She doesn't go anywhere. Even if they didnt write themselves into a corner with the war, they just arent willing to do anything interesting with her.

VaranisArano

Ratzkifal wrote: »

DivineKitty wrote: »

What I didn't like is that The game Introduced the idea of "The Coldharbour Compact" Which prevents the most notable Daedric princes from directly interfering in Nirn. It kinda stretched this with the Vvardenfell and Summerset lines, because in those ones, Daedric Princes basically try conquer the world, but it's apparently fine, because they weren't part of the original Compact, and Mephala and Clavicus Vile eventually sign on to it anyway... And then we get to The Blackwood/Deadlands story...
Now, Mehrunes Dagon was already established to have already signed the Compact, meaning he cannot directly interfere in Nirn. We are also told in Deadlands that Dagon has actually tried to break the compact before and Sotha Sil straight up Kicked him out of Nirn. So this proves that not only is Dagon Bound to the Compact, Sotha Sil has both the Authority and the power to enforce it. So, Why oh why does Dagon just Invade Nirn on a whim in Deadlands? And where was Sotha Sil? He was shown in Summerset to still be looking out for Nirn when he "helped" stop the Triad (I say "Helped" because he basically just sat back and watched you do most of the work, then swooped in to clean up) and Yet Here is Dagon Physically appearing on Nirn and Sotha is apparently just fine with it. Where was he the whole time? Was he taking a nap for the whole of Blackwood? Homeboy should have just showed up the moment Dagon appeared and kicked his 4-armed butt to the curb.

You can't introduce a bit of lore specifically for the game, then just ignore it when it becomes convenient.

The Coldharbour Compact has been around since TES3. But only in ESO has it gained story relevance because there is no Dragonborn Emperor on the throne in Cyrodiil, so it's basically the only thing in place to prevent Daedric invasions. Molag Bal found his loophole by having the planemeld be started by Mannimarco from within so to speak.

I agree on the Blackwood story critique though. They only had Dagon invade because of Oblivion nostalgia bait, not because it would make sense. As for why Sotha Sil didn't appear in Blackwood, mainly because Summerset is connected to the events of Vvardenfell and Clockwork City, but Blackwood isn't, so they'd have to give him an introduction again and establish him in the story - otherwise it would be a literal deus ex machina to have Sil come and kick Daedric butt again. And to be fair, Sotha Sil was too late to prevent the destruction of Mournhold too so he probably would have kicked him out eventually but not immediately.

I think, technically, Dagon would've told Sotha Sil he wasn't

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

Galadriel likely wouldn't have worked, simply because a Galadriel-type character wouldn't have built up the Dominion like that, or involved themselves into the Three Banners; though an older, more subtle Queen would have certainly been possible with some alternate imperfections.

But for the story as is, Ayrenn makes a lot of sense, in particular how her rise and actions triggered an internal feud with traditionalists. No, ZOS understood Altmer very well there; they just had succession go to an atypical Queen - such is the way of hereditary monarchies.

What bothers me about her in turn is rather that it's... incomplete. Ayrenn's story is the perfect setup for a villain origin, but since the war doesn't go anywhere, it's sort of just... there.

I think we got her Villain origin at the end of the Dominion quest line in Reapers March. When we walked the Two Moons Path, we saw how she led to the downfall of the Dominion by seeking artifacts that would allow her to suppress dissent. Without the wisdom of the Mane added to the strength and spirituality of the Bosmer, she ruined everything and died as once loyal friends turned on her.

It never went down that dark road because the Vestige intervened and made sure the Dominion had solid leaders for all three nations in it, thus averting the bad ending.

(Now, I'd gripe that ESO didn't take her story further after that, but that's a separate gripe with the whole business of the writers saying everything happens in the same year with a vague connecting chronology.)

JonnAndCo

One Tamriel has severely limited their options I would think. I don't see how they could have any meaningful, world altering event, when the player chooses which order he experiences the story. All we will get is stand alone story segments with limited character development, until they change their stance on how we experience things chronologically. Current progression is limited to a few lines of dialogue if you have interacted with that character previously - nothing meaningful. It leaves the story feeling very fragmented.

Oakenaxe

JonnAndCo wrote: »

One Tamriel has severely limited their options I would think. I don't see how they could have any meaningful, world altering event, when the player chooses which order he experiences the story. All we will get is stand alone story segments with limited character development, until they change their stance on how we experience things chronologically. Current progression is limited to a few lines of dialogue if you have interacted with that character previously - nothing meaningful. It leaves the story feeling very fragmented.

Exactly. I gave this some thought and came up with the idea of the return of the Main Questline. However, in order for it to work at this point, it should be unlocked only after completing all of the storylines from the maps that are somehow involved in the game's main plot (Three Banner's War/Planemeld) and/or with the game's main characters. All of the new DLCs from now on would have it's regional storyline AND the main questline. This way they can keep future content both independent and meaningful/impactful in a main storyline. I'd like to know what they think of this

@ZOS_Kevin - couldn't find Zenke's @

JonnAndCo

I am afraid they will be unwilling to release content for a small portion of the player base. For example, I havn't completed all the story on just one character. With all the drastic changes to combat, my main character has changed over the years, so I have done some of the story on older characters, and some on more recent characters - no one character has completed it all. This is a problem I would like to rectify, but I imagine there are many with the same issue.

Oakenaxe

JonnAndCo wrote: »

I am afraid they will be unwilling to release content for a small portion of the player base. For example, I havn't completed all the story on just one character. With all the drastic changes to combat, my main character has changed over the years, so I have done some of the story on older characters, and some on more recent characters - no one character has completed it all. This is a problem I would like to rectify, but I imagine there are many with the same issue.

I see your point, it would indeed be for a selected portion of the player base that is willing to complete a lot of older stuff. I see no other alternative, sadly. It is a shame that we stay bound to seasonal short stories that have no deep implications in the world and it's characters. Especially in a TES game.

FrancisCrawford

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

PLEASE put the R back into the MMORPG.

All I want is an MMORPG with an actual R in it. Not just cosplaying and playing pretend with a toxic RP guild, but a game that actually caters to people who want to play a ROLE in a living world.

Can't really happen. The RP is the most convincing when you feel like a solo player.

EldritchSun

Stupid quest dialogues, I guess.

'- Hey, person I've just met. I want you to go to the Hollow Pit and return my Journal.
- I will go to the Hollow Pit and return your journal.
- Goodbye.'

FluffyBird

JonnAndCo wrote: »

I am afraid they will be unwilling to release content for a small portion of the player base. For example, I havn't completed all the story on just one character.

There are workarounds. For example, Genshin used to strictly require players to do certain story content before participating in story-heavy events. Now they went too far for a new player to catch up, so they say: "Fine, you can start the event right now, but if you do this and that quest before, it will improve your experience". So ZOS could just give a warning. And make a nice menu with proper order of quests.

psychotrip

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Aztrias wrote: »

Jacen_Veron wrote: »

The stupidity of the player character is rather upsetting, but I understand why the “who’s this?” and “what’s that?” questions exist.

Who is Vivec? - Dark Elf vestige

What's the Hist? - Argonian vestige

ESO is very much a game where the player is along for the ride. The story is written for the player, not the character.

Keeping in mind that the story is written for the player, not the character, those questions make perfect sense. It isn't the character that is asking, it is the player. The player is the one participating in the story. The character is just the player's avatar. The player may not be familiar with Hist, or Vivec, or all of that, and to understand the story, the player must ask about it, or just be presented with the necessary information

This is, like, the definition of bad RPG storytelling. Aspiring writers could use this as a lesson in what NOT to do.

Obviously this isnt the fault of the writers per se, they just have to work with what they're given, but it does speak to the overall leadership at ZOS that seems to place so little priority on the storytelling and roleplay aspects of their MMORPG

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

PLEASE put the R back into the MMORPG.

All I want is an MMORPG with an actual R in it. Not just cosplaying and playing pretend with a toxic RP guild, but a game that actually caters to people who want to play a ROLE in a living world.

Can't really happen. The RP is the most convincing when you feel like a solo player.

Not sure I understand this. People have been RPing together since D&D.

It would take a different kind of mmo, sure, but let's not limit our imagination here. Thats how we got to this current era of mediocre MMOs to begin with.

KingArthasMenethil

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

I don't see Ayrenn being young as being an attempt to relate to young people. Her age and time spent away from the Summerset Isles is the only way for her to push Summerset towards changes given just how rigid Altmer society is. Which has had a few issues given the Veiled Heritance and some stuff on Summerset.

Ayrenn is a failed mary sue and that's how it feels like she has been written in base game. Like her stuff is causing alot of issues with her people which created the Veiled Heritance (before lol more Daedra took that over but Dagons love of Destruction). I think someone on this forum posted about Ayreen being a failed mary sue somewhere but can't remember.

samanthasays

The big thing I dislike about the writing is the number of recurring characters. Sometimes they make sense, but at this point, it feels like half the characters in a DLC are ones we met on the other side of Tamriel. I'd much rather have a new character more local to the area to learn about and get their unique perspective instead of being an outsider with a gimmicky character trait to make you remember where you met them last. You lose out on fun character relationships and local knowledge. Why have someone we know from Hammerfell visiting the Systres doing a job that could be done by a new character?

TiaFrye

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I hate that new content retcons away many of the best old characters.
(...)
Darien's return was handled well. Characters who just have the status of minor quest-givers or less (Therraya, Kireth, Gwendis ...) can be handled well. But any character who was actually developed, Darien aside, tends to be botched when re-used in recent expansions.

Second this. Plus, in my opinion, Verandis as well. Abnur for like 90%.

To add some salt to the wound, Darien aside, characters like Abnur who got softer in epilogue quests of Dragon season after nursing a princess for a year or Verandis who got his mirror arc pretty much finished properly and happily this time - they suffer from play in any order so much. Can you imagine going to Rivenspire after Markarth and seeing Verandis hating on himself again, sacrificing himself again? It's awful. Some characters haven't keep their characters arcs at all with this model.

Honestly the only faith I still harbor for quality continuation of any recurring character's story - if it will happen at all - it's Darien. From the three alliance mascots his return was handled almost perfectly. Naryu's return in Morrowind had a bit too much edge but was good overall, she had a nice storyline and consequences to it but recent return of Raz in Elsweyr was just bad. Also seeing him being brought back yet again in Firesong, for the 3rd time in the last 5 years if you start counting at Naryu's last questline? He wasn't in Stibbons' or Rigurt's league in the Base game but he surely going there now. Also being written by several people, it shows.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

As others have stated the limitations that were imposed after One Tamriel severely limiting story continuity, you defeat Gods such as Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon and yet Average Joe over here thinks he stands a chance? what do you think this Ascended Order in High Isle would do if they knew that you have gone up against literal deities in combat and beaten them, they would not actually think they could win right? Another point is how the game "forgets" a few details regarding the player character and how their ability to revive was not just a game mechanic but this little detail is ignored.

You can be a Blood Scion with time powers who has battled Dragons and Daedric Princes and just so happens to be the Emperor and yet these details are all ignored.

VaranisArano

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

I don't see Ayrenn being young as being an attempt to relate to young people. Her age and time spent away from the Summerset Isles is the only way for her to push Summerset towards changes given just how rigid Altmer society is. Which has had a few issues given the Veiled Heritance and some stuff on Summerset.

Ayrenn is a failed mary sue and that's how it feels like she has been written in base game. Like her stuff is causing alot of issues with her people which created the Veiled Heritance (before lol more Daedra took that over but Dagons love of Destruction). I think someone on this forum posted about Ayreen being a failed mary sue somewhere but can't remember.

I've talked about her as a deconstruction of a Mary Sue a couple of times. Yeah, she's got all the hallmarks of a Mary Sue in the making from her backstory, but then in the story she's clearly in over her head, alienating her allies, and desperately needs the Khajiit and Bosmer to step up together in order to make her dream of an alliance work. On her own, it ends disastrously.

Classic Mary Sue's tend to be overly idealized, hyper competent, wish fulfillment characters. While Ayrenn's backstory tries to paint her in that light to hype her up to her less than enthusiastic subjects, I think the AD questline itself presents a far more realistic look at a young, naive Queen who's not actually as wise or experienced as she thinks she is.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

God I wish Ayrenn felt more like an ancient, wise, powerful elf-queen. I feel like Altmer are missing a character like that.

I agree with a lot in your post, but... Ayrenn? Why would she she be that?

She's 27. It's what makes her 'We must rule the children toying with powers they cannot control for their own good' so super hypocritical. Shes ruthless and ambitious, but the youngest of the three rulers.

If she'd come across as wise we'd be looking at an entirely different character.

Thats my point? Ayrenn should have been an entirely different character. She shouldnt have been 27. That was such a stupid choice imo. Were they trying to relate to young people? I'm in my 20s and I can't imagine being put in charge of a nation of ancient and powerful wizards. I'm "ruthless and ambitious" too. I'd run the place into the ground within weeks. But she's just built different I guess?

I wanted the AD to be led by some badass Galadriel style elf-queen, not some 27 year old adventurer who just happens to be great at everything. Ayrenn makes me cringe *so hard*. The AD feels like it's led by a human with pointy ears named Mary Sue. It's like they intentionally wanted to make her as different from the Altmer as possible, I guess because ZOS finds the Altmer unlikable?

I dont know, and I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic (as always) but I genuinely dislike everything about Ayrenn's character design. To me, she's emblematic of how ZOS misunderstands the Altmer, at least in my eyes.

Altmer are so often boiled down to either "snobby pricks" or "humans with pointy ears". Ayrenn is emblematic of their issues writing the Altmer imo.

Overall, I really wish they had found some middle ground between PGE1 and PGE3 Altmer, instead of replacing so much of their lore with (imo) generic high elf tropes. ESO's protrayal of the Altmer is severely lacking in creativity, but that's another conversation entirely.

I don't see Ayrenn being young as being an attempt to relate to young people. Her age and time spent away from the Summerset Isles is the only way for her to push Summerset towards changes given just how rigid Altmer society is. Which has had a few issues given the Veiled Heritance and some stuff on Summerset.

Ayrenn is a failed mary sue and that's how it feels like she has been written in base game. Like her stuff is causing alot of issues with her people which created the Veiled Heritance (before lol more Daedra took that over but Dagons love of Destruction). I think someone on this forum posted about Ayreen being a failed mary sue somewhere but can't remember.

I've talked about her as a deconstruction of a Mary Sue a couple of times. Yeah, she's got all the hallmarks of a Mary Sue in the making from her backstory, but then in the story she's clearly in over her head, alienating her allies, and desperately needs the Khajiit and Bosmer to step up together in order to make her dream of an alliance work. On her own, it ends disastrously.

Classic Mary Sue's tend to be overly idealized, hyper competent, wish fulfillment characters. While Ayrenn's backstory tries to paint her in that light to hype her up to her less than enthusiastic subjects, I think the AD questline itself presents a far more realistic look at a young, naive Queen who's not actually as wise or experienced as she thinks she is.

I didnt want my faction's leader to be a meta commentary on Mary Sues. I wanted an interesting leader that didnt just feel like a human with pointy ears. Ayrenn is such a missed oppprtunity.

MajThorax

It's childish. Characters talk like 10year-olds. No mystery, no weird behaviour. Adults are not like that.

Lugaldu

MajThorax wrote: »

It's childish. Characters talk like 10year-olds. No mystery, no weird behaviour. Adults are not like that.

I actually find that adults are usually more silly than children in many situations... but that's another story. The characters in ESO are very various, like in real life there are some who get on your nerves and others who are much more profound. The people of Tamriel show a wide range, I think.

Syldras

MajThorax wrote: »

It's childish. Characters talk like 10year-olds. No mystery, no weird behaviour. Adults are not like that.

Yes.