Penalty for bailing needs to be account wide and longer.

Xenite

Nothing like waiting 40 minutes for a dungeon and the tank decides he doesn't like the one that came up and bails on the group. Three times today I've had tanks or healers bail from the start. Sorry but a 10-12 minute penalty on a single character is not preventing people from doing this regularly. They just bail, jump on a different character and que right back up.

I get sometimes you get bad groups, but dumping a run before even the first pull because you wanted something easy is just obnoxious. Penalty should be 30 minutes and account wide for all toons.

HonestFarmer

Nothing like refusing to play support role then complaining about tanks and healers bailing when they see DDs doing no damage

Cuddlypuff

How is this even a complaint? I pray that pugs leave ASAP in every RND/RVD so I can just wipe skip all the way to final boss without any hassles. On a serious note, the real solution is to let people queue RND with 1, 2 or 3 man groups. These are people that clearly don't want to be carrying 0-dpsers while being slowed down by all manner of shenanigans just to grind a bit of xp, transmutes and undaunted rep.

the1andonlyskwex

I don't really agree about the penalty needing to be longer, but I definitely agree that it should be account-wide.

Dropping from a group is something that the player does, not something that the character does.

(I don't agree with lengthening the penalty because lasting 15 minutes is sufficient to indicate that you're actually trying to do the dungeon, and a longer penalty would force people to stick with groups that clearly aren't getting anywhere.)

Amottica

The best solution is to run with guildmates. Much smoother dungeon runs overall.

Xenite

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

These are people that clearly don't want to be carrying 0-dpsers

Like I said, it has nothing to do with the quality or lack of DPS. It has to do with people not wanting to do content that takes a bit longer or has any real mechanics. I'm not talking about leaving a group because they have wiped multiple times or lack the dps to complete a dungeon.

Nobody is dropping Fungal Grotto because it's quick and easy. But get something like March of Sacrifices you see tanks and healers bailing on groups as soon as they enter the dungeon. Those people shouldn't be allowed to simply change characters and que right back up.

Stuff like this (not to mention the fake tanks, meth speed running) are some of the reasons so many people think the dungeon experience in ESO is so terrible.

RealLoveBVB

Queued for random vet once and got icereach. Our "unchained" 19k hp tank immediately left. I whispered him and asked why he did that. "I don't want DLC dungeon".

So what do we have: players who abusing the tank role to get instant queues, but punishing 3 other players who had to wait XX minutes to get into dungeon and have to wait for another XX minutes for either tank replacement or a whole requeue.

Then based on his answer we have players who do that on a regular basis, so destroying the experience of players every day.

I don't even demand accountwide punishments for the queuetime, but actually -bans- for such selfish players.

Cuddlypuff

The other advantage of letting smaller groups queue as 1/2/3 members is that there is no impact on others if they decide to speedrun or dip or ignore quest etc. In an ideal world I'd call this a win-win but realistically it would remove all the carry players and render the queue system useless anyway. Personally I don't dip DLCs because I'm still missing a ton of stickers, quests and undaunted rep, but the level of entitlement that some pugs have whilst being carried is pretty toxic.

GuildedLilly

I'm against lengthening the penalty because ZOS has proven it has no ability to distinguish between when the server drops someone (game crash) and when they voluntarily leave in BGs. I have game crashes in dungeons as well, but since I play tanks and healers, most of the time the PUG group I'm running with will give me a chance to re-log vs. insta kick--when they don't, I get a penalty before I can requeue. I ALWAYS get a penalty when the game crashes mid-BG, there's no way to rejoin my team, and the battleground deserter penalty sticks to that character until it times out.

IF ZOS fixes their game to the point that issues like mine become a distant memory or rare, then by all means, feel free to increase the penalty and/or make it account wide. Until then, the current penalty length is just added insult to injury for players who are already being punished by ZOS's mistakes.

RealLoveBVB

GuildedLilly wrote: »

I'm against lengthening the penalty because ZOS has proven it has no ability to distinguish between when the server drops someone (game crash) and when they voluntarily leave in BGs. I have game crashes in dungeons as well, but since I play tanks and healers, most of the time the PUG group I'm running with will give me a chance to re-log vs. insta kick--when they don't, I get a penalty before I can requeue. I ALWAYS get a penalty when the game crashes mid-BG, there's no way to rejoin my team, and the battleground deserter penalty sticks to that character until it times out.

IF ZOS fixes their game to the point that issues like mine become a distant memory or rare, then by all means, feel free to increase the penalty and/or make it account wide. Until then, the current penalty length is just added insult to injury for players who are already being punished by ZOS's mistakes.

I think it's intentional to not players rejoin in bgs anymore. Bgs only take a maximum of 15 mins (in most cases its finished earlier by points). So if you have a crash or a DC, then you will minimum take 1-2 minutes to be able to rejoin. It alone takes 1 minute for the game to recognize, that you crashed, so you have the annoying "account already logged in" message.
If they would reserve your slot, then your team would have a huge disadvantage, which could cost them the match.
So it's better to just drop the player at all and get a replacement on the fastest way.

On the other way there could be griefers, who just enter and rejoin, saying they would have connection issues.

I am on your side- it annoys me a lot too when being dced in a bg. But it's more of an advantage to get dropped at all.

GuildedLilly

I agree that BG teams shouldn't be penalized--but my point was essentially until ZOS can prove it can differentiate between voluntarily dropping group, and game crashes, the in-game penalty shouldn't be worse. I HATE getting a BG deserter penalty when I didn't leave by choice-- the game crashed. I hate being unable to re-Q for dungeons when I didn't go offline on purpose, the game crashed and my group kicked me before I could re-log.

I will never support increasing penalties until ZOS can prove those penalties are being imposed on players who actually INTENDED to abandon their team, vs. every player who goes offline (even if the reason they went offline is because the game crashed). I don't support existing penalties being inflicted upon players when the game derps, so I definitely wouldn't support increasing them.

Xenite

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Queued for random vet once and got icereach. Our "unchained" 19k hp tank immediately left. I whispered him and asked why he did that. "I don't want DLC dungeon".

So what do we have: players who abusing the tank role to get instant queues, but punishing 3 other players who had to wait XX minutes to get into dungeon and have to wait for another XX minutes for either tank replacement or a whole requeue

What set me off on the issue is I have been trying to farm blood moon. Waited twice yesterday (nearly 40 minutes each time) only to have a tank and then a healer bail as soon as we loaded in. The replacement system also is near useless, it doesn't seem to prioritize you for someone as both times we waited a good 10+ minutes and never got anyone and finally the groups fell apart.

It's a common theme for a lot of DLC dungeons.

El_Borracho

As someone who tanks a lot of randoms, normal and vet, I love threads like this. You also could not have picked a more perfect dungeon to illustrate this point. March of Sacrifices is a great dungeon with a competent group. It is an absolute nightmare for a tank with bad DDs. "Keep the bosses apart." "No I don't want to do the side quest {get ignored as the DDs run off to do the side quest)." "Kill the lurchers." "Don't run ahead of the group or you'll pull all the adds to you." "Kill the archers." "Go, run ahead. Pull all the adds. Yes, I understand its somehow my fault that you refuse to listen." "Crouch." "Ignore the boss, kill the adds." "No, the boss can't be aggo'd the whole time." "Oh goody. You ran ahead again." "Follow the player who is glowing." "Stay on the land." "Stay in the water." "I'm sure you normally do hit 100K but my poor tanking ruined your mojo because I am the worst tank ever." "KILL THE ADDS!!!" "No I'm not giving you any gear."

That dungeon is not one you want to tank with randoms. Once you see it pop up, you instantly recall all the bad times so you are predisposed to quit. Its comes down to looking at the group's levels, then decide if you want to roll the dice and run with them, knowing you are probably only adding time to the eventual quitting penalty. You're far better off with a premade group.

As I don't know you, I'm not passing any judgment on you @Xenite. And I'm just using this thread to posit a different perspective on why tanks quit early. Threads like this completely ignore that support roles like tanks and healers DO NOT LIKE BEING STUCK WITH BAD DPS GROUPS. Especially in mechanic heavy dungeons that are long even with decent DPS. Tanks are not here to serve the needs of DDs who want gear. We like having fun too.

Necrotech_Master

i usually dont do random queue anymore because too many times now it gives me dungeons i dont need to collect any gear from, so it feels like a "wasted run" to me because at almost cp2100 i dont need the xp, and if i wanted more transmutes, i would just go to cyro (i usually only do randoms with friends now)

in the past week i ran about 12 randoms, only 1 of those was for a dungeon i actually needed gear from

as someone who has played all roles, i usually try to avoid bailing on the run unless i have an absolute hard stop time and the run is not progressing

i have both been on the runs as a DPS who has more hp than the "tank" and can survive better than them too, and ive been the tank on a run where the total group dps was 12k (of which i was doing 70%), but i still saw the run through to the end

if the dungeon is normal, i am pretty confident with my ability to solo any dungeon that doesnt have some mechanic that requires a 2nd person

i even once forgot to change my role back to dps on my pvp NB once after i was running with friends to just start the queue and so had to tank march of sacrifices on normal as a pvp NB with 12k resists (i did at least slot a taunt, and it was tricky with some bosses since i couldnt directly take some of the heavy hits even when blocking lol)

NordSwordnBoard

About the account wide aspect - let's say I'm the healer, and my current group doesn't need me as much as the friend who keeps whispering they need a healer desperately. If I leave, with the consent of my current group - I am banned from helping my friend for about 20 minutes? Also banned from getting on a different healer, DD, or tank so people can swap to account for my penalty?

As already mentioned, eso can't differentiate between a quitter and a disconnect. Imagine getting disconnected, penalized, and unable to que for any dungeon content on that account - because of a game failure and nothing you did.

Elendir2am

My main issues with punishment of dropers is, that they are not who refuse play game in some causes.

You end in group with 3 skippers for example. Boring experience wait for you then insted playing dungeon.
Punishing, here I am coming!

Cuddlypuff

Elendir2am wrote: »

My main issues with punishment of dropers is, that they are not who refuse play game in some causes.

You end in group with 3 skippers for example. Boring experience wait for you then insted playing dungeon.
Punishing, here I am coming!

If 3 out of 4 are skipping aren't you just the selfish one expecting them to wait for you?

karthrag_inak

Xenite wrote: »

Nothing like waiting 40 minutes for a dungeon and the tank decides he doesn't like the one that came up and bails on the group. Three times today I've had tanks or healers bail from the start. Sorry but a 10-12 minute penalty on a single character is not preventing people from doing this regularly. They just bail, jump on a different character and que right back up.

I get sometimes you get bad groups, but dumping a run before even the first pull because you wanted something easy is just obnoxious. Penalty should be 30 minutes and account wide for all toons.

Yeah, because game desperately needs even more baked-in incentive to not queue in the first place. Brilliant!

Jaimeh

HonestFarmer wrote: »

Nothing like refusing to play support role then complaining about tanks and healers bailing when they see DDs doing no damage

The OP clearly talked about cases where the tank dropped right away without even seeing how the first pull would go, so this doesn't apply.

Back on topic, I think 30-40 minutes timeout is way too long, after all someone might drop incidentally because of something happening in their RL, so13 minutes account-wide might be a better midway solution. Also, a good idea in general when pugging is that when you're on a support role and don't have enough time/patience to deal with a long or more challenging random, then queue with a friend or guildie that is <level 45 and you won't get a dlc this way.

seldomseenkd

Disagree.

The problem of people dropping group is caused by a badly designed system. People will always choose the path of least resistance, so systems should be designed to utilise this reality rather than work against it. Punishing people for choosing the easy path will not solve this fundamental design mistake.

vindex9ona

Additionally, a long account wide timeout will push people to switch to another game in the meantime, and that is not a good strategy.

Lailaamell

Fix for this is remove dlc dungeons from rnd most dont want to do dlc dungeons thats is getting prettty obvius atm

Cuddlypuff

Lailaamell wrote: »

Fix for this is remove dlc dungeons from rnd most dont want to do dlc dungeons thats is getting prettty obvius atm

Not necessarily - I have all the stickers from non-DLC so I would prefer a DLC only option for RND. The only change that needs to be made is to allow duos to get in and out without dealing with queue or pugs.

kaisernick

Sure
if it also becomes banable to que for a role you are not Ie fake tank and healers then absolutly.

if anything if people keep quing for fake roles i feel the cooldown needs to go as nothing is worse than quing only to pop and find the tank or healer isnt what they claim to be.

chrisub17_ESO104

It's not my fault ZOS wants to force players to run content they don't want, by mixing it into other content that is required to get your daily transmutes. Be mad at ZOS not players that simply want to maximize their play time.

Hell yes I quit if it's a scenario that is a huge waste of my time. I'll say sorry I can't stand this content and drop.

Why can't we have a better dungeon finder? That's the real problem here.

DarcyMardin

People dropping for one reason or another, including getting DC’d, which happens to me a lot, is something that’s been ongoing since the beginning. I really doubt the situation is going to change, considering the group finder system that we have.