Remember me, please, why it's either DMs or DMs?

wheresbes

With Cyrodiil being broken again, I did some BGs yesterday; I've picked the solo, all modes queue and, needless to say, I got mostly DMs. I don't mind DMs once in a while, but I don't understand what's the point of having two separate queues if they both lead to pretty much the same outcome. I got quite depressed toward the end.

Each mode should have the same chance of popping up, even if that means longer queue times.

I miss BGs! Some of them were so fun!

Necrotech_Master

the problem started with their "deathmatch only" test (i stopped playing BG during this time cause deathmatch is my least favorite mode, and 0 chance to get everything else)

after a month they decided to switch it to the current system for some random unknown reason, in which the queue is heavily rigged in favor of deathmatch (i also have not participated in BG since because queue is still not "fixed")

i liked BG when random was truly random and there was an equal chance to get all of the games, it provided variety and occasional deathmatches were not bad (still not really enjoyable though)

they should have just change queue back to how it was originally (where you could select random for the bonus (like dungeons), or select specific game modes divided between deathmatch, land games, and flag games (although they could merge the land and flag games if that would improve queue times)

they really should have the queue set up like original (random for bonus, but individual buckets to choose game type as this would also facilitate working on achievements)

ealdwin

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the problem started with their "deathmatch only" test (i stopped playing BG during this time cause deathmatch is my least favorite mode, and 0 chance to get everything else)

after a month they decided to switch it to the current system for some random unknown reason, in which the queue is heavily rigged in favor of deathmatch (i also have not participated in BG since because queue is still not "fixed")

i liked BG when random was truly random and there was an equal chance to get all of the games, it provided variety and occasional deathmatches were not bad (still not really enjoyable though)

they should have just change queue back to how it was originally (where you could select random for the bonus (like dungeons), or select specific game modes divided between deathmatch, land games, and flag games (although they could merge the land and flag games if that would improve queue times)

they really should have the queue set up like original (random for bonus, but individual buckets to choose game type as this would also facilitate working on achievements)

Agreed.

I'd be willing to sacrifice Solo/Group divide too if it helped (have a feeling it will). The only additional change I'd recommend would be adding some way in the ui to see who is potentially grouped with who on your team or the other. Not because of "omg, pre-mades OP" complaints, but just for the information.

Aldoss

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

after a month they decided to switch it to the current system for some random unknown reason,

This is well known as to why these changes were made. All you need to do is read the plethora of recent threads discussing this queue change to become aware that splitting the queue any further from what it is now is not in the game's best interest.

nightstrike

Aldoss wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

after a month they decided to switch it to the current system for some random unknown reason,

This is well known as to why these changes were made. All you need to do is read the plethora of recent threads discussing this queue change to become aware that splitting the queue any further from what it is now is not in the game's best interest.

Actually, it isn't "well known". The current setup isn't really based on the actual outcomes of the test. There was mild hand waving and speculation, but as I stated in the thread that was curiously closed, ZOS's test and eventual "solution" were plagued by a nontrivial amount of confirmation bias.

Necrotech_Master

Aldoss wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

after a month they decided to switch it to the current system for some random unknown reason,

This is well known as to why these changes were made. All you need to do is read the plethora of recent threads discussing this queue change to become aware that splitting the queue any further from what it is now is not in the game's best interest.

i have been keeping up with the threads about the queue and all i see are numerous complaints about "why are we only getting DM" (i know why we are only getting DM, and such i just avoid playing battlegrounds entirely right now)

they could have done any number of other solutions that would have still allowed to play the other game modes instead of outright rigging the queue in favor of deathmatch (such as a single random queue that was 50% DM and 50% other modes, since that seems to be the dividing point of the BG community)

when i did BG i didnt mind the occasional deathmatches, but under the very original system (random + individual queue buckets for DM/land/flag), picking random did feel almost like a 50/50 for DM and other modes, but if i wanted to guarantee i wouldnt get deathmatch, i would be able to do that too

i agree the 2nd version of queue (only pure random) was technically favorable to other modes vs DM (if you did only want DM, A you couldnt do it and B it was 20% chance of the match occurring), and also not ideal, but in the original queue system you could still select to play only DMs if you selected the option

the current version (3rd version) of the queue is like a half-baked version between original queue and purely random, but taking away all of the choice to be able to avoid deathmatches, while at the same time giving DMers the ability to only do DMs (but no way to pick the "no deathmatch" option)

which is why i think we should go back to the original queue, but instead of having separate buckets for land and flag games, just merge them into single bucket called "objectives", as this would give the most choice to everyone (random would get the daily bonus and be able to get any mode (exactly like dungeons right now), poeple who wanted DM can queue for DM and pull from random bucket (also like dungeons right now), and poeple who wanted to avoid DM can pick objectives and also share the random bucket

i dont currently have a good idea how to resolve the solo vs group queue though, i like the group queue cause i usually like to queue with a friend, but i understand people who prefer not having a chance to be against a "premade" group (maybe to improve BG just have the 3 options for group (random + dm/obj buckets), and then actually come up with a new game mode for the solo queue so there is only 1 queue (could be derived from some of the normal games, but make it no teams at all, free for all)

M0ntie

Thanks for asking because I don't understand why after they changed it to DM only for a test, and it was a fail in that it reduced number of players doing BGs, that they haven't put it back.
It seems they are catering to the DM only crowd, and totally ignoring the significant number of players who want an equal number of BG match types.
I refuse to do any BGs until they fix this.

luen79rwb17_ESO

If ZOS decided to split the queues (as they should). My wait time for obj BG would be X minutes. As of now my wait time is stopped at "X + infinite" because I'm not even trying BGs anymore and I wouldn't get my preferred BG modes.

If DM is supposedly the most popular option, and developers boast about it, then the current MM system just further marginalized the supposed minority of players. Almost entirely depriving us from playing it in favor of the supposed popular option. Talk about "diversity" and "inclusion"...

Aldoss

Going to reiterate something said multiple times in the numerous threads:

PvP BGers (who predominately prefer DM) were nearly barred from their preferred game mode for over a year, yet kept queuing. It took over a year for ZOS to hear us and finally make a change. I'm sure you could make it happen in less time.

Absolutely complain and speak your mind to ZOS about this decision, but you should also know that by abstaining from the BG queue outright, you are inflicting self-harm and giving ZOS all the affirmation they need to NOT reverse this queue decision to suit you and your wants.

The more people that say "screw it, I'm done", the less likely others get your preferred objective modes, the less likely those few players left who are giving the objective random queue a shot also ultimately decide to also quit trying.

If you want for objective mode BGs to succeed, you need to queue for it and show ZOS that that's what you want. So what if you get DM again? Or, do what the PvP BG community did for the last two years and organize your own events.

1 person queuing for DM-only screws 11 people over? Drown. Them. Out. Get your friends together and all the people that proclaim love for these now unicorn game modes and queue up together.

These forums are littered with complaints about "I'm done" and not one thread yet by someone saying "if you want objective modes, join me by queuing for the random mode at this time, on this date, on this server! Let's do this!"

Orchestrate something that gives you and the silent others some amount of joy. It will take work and it also might still result in DM modes popping up.

If you'd rather not, then don't feign surprise when ZOS issues statements that proclaim that no one wants objective modes, thus won't be given any dev time or queue priority.

When you want something, be a contributor and a proactive part of its growth. If that's not worth it to you, ask yourself if you really wanted it at all.

Taggund

Aldoss wrote: »

Going to reiterate something said multiple times in the numerous threads:

PvP BGers (who predominately prefer DM) were nearly barred from their preferred game mode for over a year, yet kept queuing. It took over a year for ZOS to hear us and finally make a change. I'm sure you could make it happen in less time.

Absolutely complain and speak your mind to ZOS about this decision, but you should also know that by abstaining from the BG queue outright, you are inflicting self-harm and giving ZOS all the affirmation they need to NOT reverse this queue decision to suit you and your wants.

The more people that say "screw it, I'm done", the less likely others get your preferred objective modes, the less likely those few players left who are giving the objective random queue a shot also ultimately decide to also quit trying.

If you want for objective mode BGs to succeed, you need to queue for it and show ZOS that that's what you want. So what if you get DM again? Or, do what the PvP BG community did for the last two years and organize your own events.

1 person queuing for DM-only screws 11 people over? Drown. Them. Out. Get your friends together and all the people that proclaim love for these now unicorn game modes and queue up together.

These forums are littered with complaints about "I'm done" and not one thread yet by someone saying "if you want objective modes, join me by queuing for the random mode at this time, on this date, on this server! Let's do this!"

Orchestrate something that gives you and the silent others some amount of joy. It will take work and it also might still result in DM modes popping up.

If you'd rather not, then don't feign surprise when ZOS issues statements that proclaim that no one wants objective modes, thus won't be given any dev time or queue priority.

When you want something, be a contributor and a proactive part of its growth. If that's not worth it to you, ask yourself if you really wanted it at all.

A decline in players queuing for BGs also tells ZOS they are not happy with the current state. I think they understand it is also helping make it more a DM only mode than if they were to queue.

Coming here to the forums to indicate they are not happy with the current state is also communicating with ZOS. At this point, it is ZOS who is not communicating, though they started out this "test" and now permanent state, with communication.

There are those that want DM only, those that want objective only, and those that want a balanced mixture. I still believe the majority of BG players don't want DM only, but a variety that includes objective modes. At least there is a significant portion that want objective modes, even if not the majority. The question is what does not including objectives do to the overall population (and if ZOS is even concerned with BG population impact on the game player base overall).

Though I prefer objective, I was OK with DM mode when it came up, but I can definitely say I don't want DM only, which is why I no longer queue (and as such, also lowered my overall ESO play) and come here for some feedback to/from ZOS, Eventually I'll just stop coming here too, and may not be around when they finally decide to make a statement (if they ever do).

_adhyffbjjjf12

Taggund wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Going to reiterate something said multiple times in the numerous threads:

PvP BGers (who predominately prefer DM) were nearly barred from their preferred game mode for over a year, yet kept queuing. It took over a year for ZOS to hear us and finally make a change. I'm sure you could make it happen in less time.

Absolutely complain and speak your mind to ZOS about this decision, but you should also know that by abstaining from the BG queue outright, you are inflicting self-harm and giving ZOS all the affirmation they need to NOT reverse this queue decision to suit you and your wants.

The more people that say "screw it, I'm done", the less likely others get your preferred objective modes, the less likely those few players left who are giving the objective random queue a shot also ultimately decide to also quit trying.

If you want for objective mode BGs to succeed, you need to queue for it and show ZOS that that's what you want. So what if you get DM again? Or, do what the PvP BG community did for the last two years and organize your own events.

1 person queuing for DM-only screws 11 people over? Drown. Them. Out. Get your friends together and all the people that proclaim love for these now unicorn game modes and queue up together.

These forums are littered with complaints about "I'm done" and not one thread yet by someone saying "if you want objective modes, join me by queuing for the random mode at this time, on this date, on this server! Let's do this!"

Orchestrate something that gives you and the silent others some amount of joy. It will take work and it also might still result in DM modes popping up.

If you'd rather not, then don't feign surprise when ZOS issues statements that proclaim that no one wants objective modes, thus won't be given any dev time or queue priority.

When you want something, be a contributor and a proactive part of its growth. If that's not worth it to you, ask yourself if you really wanted it at all.

A decline in players queuing for BGs also tells ZOS they are not happy with the current state. I think they understand it is also helping make it more a DM only mode than if they were to queue.

Coming here to the forums to indicate they are not happy with the current state is also communicating with ZOS. At this point, it is ZOS who is not communicating, though they started out this "test" and now permanent state, with communication.

There are those that want DM only, those that want objective only, and those that want a balanced mixture. I still believe the majority of BG players don't want DM only, but a variety that includes objective modes. At least there is a significant portion that want objective modes, even if not the majority. The question is what does not including objectives do to the overall population (and if ZOS is even concerned with BG population impact on the game player base overall).

Though I prefer objective, I was OK with DM mode when it came up, but I can definitely say I don't want DM only, which is why I no longer queue (and as such, also lowered my overall ESO play) and come here for some feedback to/from ZOS, Eventually I'll just stop coming here too, and may not be around when they finally decide to make a statement (if they ever do).

no, what consumers do is not pay if they are not happy with their service. paying players had their content taken away this year, i.e before the DM [snip] up we could play objective based PVP whenever I wanted, now we can't. Other AAA mmorpg are out there that offer good Objective based PVP that don't screw up like this if ZOS cant handle it.

[edited for profanity bypass]

wheresbes

Why make another queue if the outcome is pretty much the same? This is my gripe, really.

It's like if I ask you, do you want pie or pizza? You tell me pizza, I give you pie. They had a great idea about making two separate queues, I just can't get around to why it turned out this way.

I'm starting to suspect that, if things worked differently, we would have another wave of complaints, this time about the DM queue being too long because it's true that PVP BGers prefer DMs, but the majority of players aren't PVP BGers yet many would do a BG from time to time (mostly the daily one for XP).

Aldoss wrote: »

When you want something, be a contributor and a proactive part of its growth. If that's not worth it to you, ask yourself if you really wanted it at all.

Its worth is the same as any other in-game activity and with so many of them, if it ain't working, it's easier to move to something else, it's not us players that have to orchestrate things, it's devs that have to provide what's advertised.

To simply put it, some of us had something taken away, and we are rightfully fed up with it.

_adhyffbjjjf12

to quote ZOS once again

"First, it’s valuable to note the general feedback on this test was quite polarizing. While there were certainly a lot of players that liked only having Deathmatch available, there were just as many that didn’t enjoy it. A frequent complaint we saw, though, was the disappointment that we removed something that is ultimately at the core of our game: the freedom of choice. And in the case of this test, the data appeared to back that up as well. Although we initially saw a very slight bump in participation, it quickly declined and has left Battleground populations in a fairly unhealthy state."

is not 'DM is most popular so we will change the RANDOM queues to skew towards DM such that objective PVP is practically removed from the game'

Aldoss

wheresbes wrote: »

To simply put it, some of us had something taken away, and we are rightfully fed up with it.

I don't know what to tell you... the roadmap is there. BG PvPers were in your shoes back in 2020 when queues got changed as a compromise to get a group queue option, causing the DM mode to pop less than 10% of the time.

Sure, we complained, but we also kept queuing and ultimately ZOS made an adjustment that favored this niche demographic.

I guess I don't understand the mentality of self-defeat. You say you want something, but don't have the population to support it, but also don't want to queue to try and build the population worthy of that support.

Maybe your threats will work. All I'm saying is that the BG PvP community proved that you can get what you want from ZOS with enough effort.

nightstrike

Aldoss wrote: »

wheresbes wrote: »

To simply put it, some of us had something taken away, and we are rightfully fed up with it.

I don't know what to tell you... the roadmap is there. BG PvPers were in your shoes back in 2020 when queues got changed as a compromise to get a group queue option, causing the DM mode to pop less than 10% of the time.

Sure, we complained, but we also kept queuing and ultimately ZOS made an adjustment that favored this niche demographic.

I guess I don't understand the mentality of self-defeat. You say you want something, but don't have the population to support it, but also don't want to queue to try and build the population worthy of that support.

Maybe your threats will work. All I'm saying is that the BG PvP community proved that you can get what you want from ZOS with enough effort.

From what ZOS told us, there were people who would treat capture the relic as death match. How do you treat death match as capture the relic?

My solution has been to join and then drop.

drunkendx

nightstrike wrote: »

From what ZOS told us, there were people who would treat capture the relic as death match. How do you treat death match as capture the relic?

My solution has been to join and then drop.

I queue for solo random BG and if I get DM (which has been running as 100% chance in my case) I just switch toons.

Aldoss

nightstrike wrote: »

From what ZOS told us, there were people who would treat capture the relic as death match. How do you treat death match as capture the relic?

We don't need to get into it, but my opinion on that matter is those who prioritized killing players as opposed to trying to capture the flag were playing the objective... The people who had a problem with it are the same people upset that DM is the most popular option because they don't actually want to play modes that incentivize combat.

You could embrace the RedTalos method which is a huge meme on PCNA. They only stay in arenas that have death drops and then spends the entire match trying to magnum shot players off.

The real answer is: don't. Play the deathmatch, just as so many DMers played domination after domination when barely any DM would pop. Sure, some people stopped playing the objective in an overtly malicious way, but you get toxicity like that in any social game. There are players right now who sit in the spawn and spend the entire game refusing to participate and help their teammates at all.

Again, abstaining from the random queue entirely will only manifest in ZOS feeling justified in not making any changes that suit you.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Aldoss wrote: »

wheresbes wrote: »

To simply put it, some of us had something taken away, and we are rightfully fed up with it.

I don't know what to tell you... the roadmap is there. BG PvPers were in your shoes back in 2020 when queues got changed as a compromise to get a group queue option, causing the DM mode to pop less than 10% of the time.

Sure, we complained, but we also kept queuing and ultimately ZOS made an adjustment that favored this niche demographic.

I guess I don't understand the mentality of self-defeat. You say you want something, but don't have the population to support it, but also don't want to queue to try and build the population worthy of that support.

Maybe your threats will work. All I'm saying is that the BG PvP community proved that you can get what you want from ZOS with enough effort.

the needs

Aldoss wrote: »

nightstrike wrote: »

From what ZOS told us, there were people who would treat capture the relic as death match. How do you treat death match as capture the relic?

We don't need to get into it, but my opinion on that matter is those who prioritized killing players as opposed to trying to capture the flag were playing the objective... The people who had a problem with it are the same people upset that DM is the most popular option because they don't actually want to play modes that incentivize combat.

You could embrace the RedTalos method which is a huge meme on PCNA. They only stay in arenas that have death drops and then spends the entire match trying to magnum shot players off.

The real answer is: don't. Play the deathmatch, just as so many DMers played domination after domination when barely any DM would pop. Sure, some people stopped playing the objective in an overtly malicious way, but you get toxicity like that in any social game. There are players right now who sit in the spawn and spend the entire game refusing to participate and help their teammates at all.

Again, abstaining from the random queue entirely will only manifest in ZOS feeling justified in not making any changes that suit you.

No abstaining from content I don't want to play and pay for means I can pay for and play content I do want to play. If ZOS wants to remove content I paid for then that's not a company i'm going to trust going forward.

wheresbes

Aldoss wrote: »

The people who had a problem with it are the same people upset that DM is the most popular option because they don't actually want to play modes that incentivize combat.

I like combat, yet I find combat as an end goal extremely boring. We had good fights before WHILE pursuing an objective. In every mode, you had to fight to capture, fight to defend and sometimes tactfully sneak the other way.

That's why I very much enjoy Cyrodiil; the fights are there and are big, yet, the ultimate goal is to capture and hold the map, which is what makes it especially interesting for me.

ZOS should just truly separate queues, DMs only and all-modes to make everyone's happy IMO.

Necrotech_Master

not everyone has 12 friends to queue into a random BG at the same exact time (and still wont guarantee avoiding DM because there is still a minimum of 20% chance of DM for the random bucket)

i can understand them wanting to give DM players an option to focus on DM games, but if they want fairness why are there no specific queue options for say every other mode? i know they dont want the queues taking forever, but blatantly rigging it in favor of deathmatch does not make more people want to queue, especially for people who dont like deathmatch to begin with (it is my personally least favorite mode, and until random actually means random, im not bothering with BGs, especially since i have all the gear collected from there too)

Casul

I just went back to dark souls 3, I'd rather deal with getting ganked over there then getting ignored over here.