A plea to ZoS to introduce a proper ELO / Matchmaking system

YoureWrongImRight

All you're doing is supporting a system that is obviously flawed and doesn't work. Supporting game mechanics that are broken and have been for a long time. Perpetuating the current system but then just ranking is solves nothing.

You're obviously free to hold onto that stance, but it will just continue on the same path that's already been happening for a long time. A dead game with shrinking population since barrier to entry discourages new players from participating. Proof is in the numbers, people don't enjoy it, and they're leaving because of it. Enjoy the ride down.

Ominer

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

All you're doing is supporting a system that is obviously flawed and doesn't work. Supporting game mechanics that are broken and have been for a long time. Perpetuating the current system but then just ranking is solves nothing.

You're obviously free to hold onto that stance, but it will just continue on the same path that's already been happening for a long time. A dead game with shrinking population since barrier to entry discourages new players from participating. Proof is in the numbers, people don't enjoy it, and they're leaving because of it. Enjoy the ride down.

That's cool man, thanks for your inciteful and engaging commentary.
Look forward to hearing more from you while you continue to participate on the forums of a 'dead game'.

divnyi

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

you guys must be right, ESO is the pinnacle of competitive PvP and all that's required is a ranking system to show who's the best. That's why the population in PvP has been in steady decline for a long period, game as a whole is probably dying, people are constantly complaining about how bad it is everywhere you look.

Cannot possibly have anything to do with game mechanics, non competitive advantages that drive new players away, it even drives the old players away.

Maybe, just maybe, BGs not having any changes for years and years, have something to do with it?
Nah, it must be balance issues. Need another patch that changes everything and requires everyone to redo all builds again.

WordsOfPower

I'm sorry Kitkat but I just don't see your argument. There's a lot of words in that post, but you don't respond to the points I made.

There is no gear that gives an unfair advantage, since everyone can acquire the same things.

Please don't compare to other sports because that's just daft. You are arguing in favour of standardised great, so make your argument as if you were in an organised debate. And try to support it.

Maybe then I can follow it. Seems doubtful

Aldoss

No one is saying that BGs should ONLY be ranked. The card game isn't.

If ZOS were to offer a DM only ranked queue option for solo and group, my money is on starting to see some positive gains for this community starting immediately.

Yesterday, my wife and I queued for 5 matches. 4 of them were domination and every time we were matched against a well known sorc healer/stamplar duo. They annihilated everything they touched. It was painfully obvious who was queuing to bg and who wasn't. Wife and I were both on magdens. Our choice. We knew how much work we'd have to do to even begin to be competitive against them.

Our first queue was only a few minutes. The second queue was slightly longer and that match, the duo got paired with other PvPers on solid meta builds. The entire match was a slaughterfest until the winning obj team finally won with most of them going 0-10+.

After that match, queue time was nearing 15 minutes and then persisted. The duo was in every one of our lobbies.

Yesterday was the exact opposite of a healthy environment that grows the community. It's not the duo's fault for playing their way, it's ZOS's for making such negligent choices in their management of us. Putting a casual player up against two vet duos of sorc heal, double stamplar, and magdk who have no intention on ending the game with objectives will end 99% of the time with those casuals deciding that BGs aren't for them.

Yet, this is what you're arguing in support of @YoureWrongImRight?

The system right now doesn't work. It's not doing anything good for 95% of the community.

Talking about standardizing gear inside the lobby is a red herring because gear standardization is already within the control of the players who choose to queue for a BG.

The better option is to create a system that no longer puts casuals against vets so that the casuals at least have some sort of on ramping experience to better identify what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong both in how they build their toons and how they play those builds.

YoureWrongImRight

So we'll take a dying population that could not even handle the fragmentation of a DM and objective queue for BG's and we'll add all these things for ranked solo, ranked group, unranked solo, unranked group, DM only, objective only, then on top of that we'll add MMR so that ranked queue's are even more fragmented.

You still don't seem to understand that games likes this die due to their barrier to entry, games get 3,5,10 years old and there's so many skill lines to get, so many gear sets to acquire, so much CP to work through, then learning all the tricks here and there. You don't attract new players like that. People just want to log in here and there and actually have an enjoyable experience, that means not getting trash canned by one guy even though there's you AND your 5 friends all smashing him and it's doing literally nothing, then they turn around and blow up you and your entire party with one combo. That's the experience new players have and that's why they don't stick around.

As I've stated in various ways in many posts, people seem way more concerned with bragging rights than actually bringing in new players which is what sustains the game. The more things you stack against them to be able to compete the less likely they are to stick around, and that's exactly what's happening.

Dem_kitkats1

WordsOfPower wrote: »

I'm sorry Kitkat but I just don't see your argument. There's a lot of words in that post, but you don't respond to the points I made.

There is no gear that gives an unfair advantage, since everyone can acquire the same things.

Please don't compare to other sports because that's just daft. You are arguing in favour of standardised great, so make your argument as if you were in an organised debate. And try to support it.

Maybe then I can follow it. Seems doubtful

I mean your advice is a bit contradictory since you commended someone else's post who did the same; compare ESO to other sports. Not sure how your one sentence comment on equal access to gear is qualified as any more organized, or supportive of an argument. Perhaps you should follow your own advice before you give it?

Aldoss wrote: »

No one is saying that BGs should ONLY be ranked. The card game isn't.

If ZOS were to offer a DM only ranked queue option for solo and group, my money is on starting to see some positive gains for this community starting immediately.

The better option is to create a system that no longer puts casuals against vets so that the casuals at least have some sort of on ramping experience to better identify what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong both in how they build their toons and how they play those builds.

I agree, the focus should be to separate DM and Objective modes ASAP. I think it would definitely be a positive step in getting some of the community to return. However, according to ZOS the population is barely large enough to support that as it is. I fear that the population is just not large enough to support a ranked mode on top of all of the other queues atm. Players in other threads have commented about having horrendous wait times for group as it is now. ESO is also just not marketed towards the competitive player, so I just don't think the pool for ranked would be that large and diverse enough to make prioritizing a competitive ranking system worth it, currently.

Also, players left the game for a number of reasons greater than a lack of a ranking system. Unless those problems are addressed and resolved in some way, players will continue to be disenchanted by them. Therefore those things should be the priority.

I do agree though, the current MMR needs to be updated so that new/casual players do not have to mix with the competitive sweats so they can actually get a feel for the environment without the pressure, and constantly dying.

Cuddlypuff

I agree about the MMR and matchmaking, but since this is not in place whatsoever - please remove the MMR-matching time from the BG queue. Seriously what is the point of waiting 15 minutes just so the finder can include people from the lowest to the highest MMRs when MMR doesn't even reflect anything except playtime.

As long as there are 11 other people searching, there should just be an instant pop and lobby created. God knows how many times I wanted a quick BG while bored but just cancelled the queue after 5 mins. I feel for those PVP streamers picking flowers for 30 minutes in between their BG rounds.

And to all the people thinking this will somehow mix casuals and cracked PVPers - what do you think is currently happening? My brand new alts were meeting streamers and 4 man sweats in literally their 3rd and 4th BGs (and no I didn't go 80-0 to pump my MMR in earlier games lol).

WordsOfPower

The queues must be separated if the game is to survive, because DM players will just leave if not. And that's 90% of the players.

Saying that the population was too low to support the games with DM only is silly. It worked fine for DM. Almost instant pop every time.

The problem was that no one ever got objectives because ZOS were daft enough to include DM in the random.

Had they not, or if they separate the queues in future, there will be a perfect scenario. Pop instantly for DM, or wait 15 minutes for the less popular objective games.

charlieb

This game just needs custom BGs.

Anything else is too much to ask from ZoS

YoureWrongImRight

WordsOfPower wrote: »

The queues must be separated if the game is to survive, because DM players will just leave if not. And that's 90% of the players.

Saying that the population was too low to support the games with DM only is silly. It worked fine for DM. Almost instant pop every time.

The problem was that no one ever got objectives because ZOS were daft enough to include DM in the random.

Had they not, or if they separate the queues in future, there will be a perfect scenario. Pop instantly for DM, or wait 15 minutes for the less popular objective games.

How does this encourage new players to continue to join and participate which is what sustains population?

They can either have good queue times for DM and get annihilated.

Or they can wait 15+ minutes for an objective mode where they could actually potentially feel useful as they can still capture points etc regardless of how bad they are. Likely answer is... they won't stick around.

They'll just cancel the queue after 5-10 minutes like others have stated and go play another game.

You guys seriously need to try and look outside of your own experience and think about what will actually bring people in and keep them coming back so you actually have people to play against, not just the same 20 guys over and over.

You can still win all the time and have fun without placing so many advantages in your favor and completely annihilating people. You're still going to win due to the hours invested in the game. At least let people feel like if they played well they'd have a chance, because right now they don't feel that. Nobody wants to get blown up in one combo over and over, that doesn't motivate people to try and progress through any kind of ranking system whatsoever, just leads to uninstall and eventually you have no one to play against.

Cuddlypuff

The last time I felt BGs were somewhat populated was when I just started the game and everybody was running some poison injection 1 button build or crimson werewolf. Not my cup of tea but I guess these builds were easy and accessible for the lowest skill floors. Maybe the community secretly wants cheesefests whilst furiously complaining on forums about balance. BTW the current MagDK meta doesn't really help the lowest common denominator - it still requires thumbs.

divnyi

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

They can either have good queue times for DM and get annihilated.

Or they can wait 15+ minutes for an objective mode where they could actually potentially feel useful as they can still capture points etc regardless of how bad they are.

Or they have an alternative of fast-queueing into the game full of PvPers who disregard objectives and murder the likes of them each time he is in the close vicinity.

And after half a year PvPers get bored and find a better game, that doesn't humiliate them into forcing playing worthless modes without access to mode with actual PvP. And queue times will be 15 minute+ again.

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

You guys seriously need to try and look outside of your own experience and think about what will actually bring people in and keep them coming back so you actually have people to play against, not just the same 20 guys over and over.

I wasn't hired by ZOS to be a PvP recruiter for casuals.
On the opposite, I have given ZOS a lot of money and I want to play the game the way I like it.

Aldoss

So a quick recap of this thread:

- Proposed idea: ranking system
- Supplementary idea: standardize gear
- Supplementary idea: separate the queues

The detractors in this thread against the proposed idea clearly know the problem and predicament we're in, but can't seem to contribute any other ideas that might solve this disparity between new players and vet players.

In my experience, new players with golded gear =/= competitive against vet players with golded gear. They will still lose 99 out of 100 times.

Separating the queues is a bandaid solution that will fix the problem, but it won't solve it.

Providing a ranking option that measures the successes of a player in combat scenarios is the only idea thus far that can have a pronounced, measurable effect on a new player's experience.

"We don't have the population to support it"

Something new needs to happen and it should have happened this patch. Instead, ZOS chose to flip the table and leave us with the terrible atmosphere they created back in 2020.

Arguing against ranking because it's not perfect is arguing for the perpetration of this terrible atmosphere which brought us these low populations in the first place. Golded gear for free won't fix it. Putting a wall between us won't do much to help boost the populations.

Make the experience of new players better by putting them against each other. Ranking them is the only way I can think of that can do this.

How else can this be done?

"DMers just want another way to brag"

Comments like these only prove that those who say it have no actual experience with evenly matched games.

Here's a scoreboard from an in guild BG League, curated 4v4v4. No pugs.



10 kills. Total.

They don't always end this way, but there's no longer a scoreboard of someone going 20-0 because everyone in the match was around the same skill level.

I promise you, if there were even one pug in that match, even with golded gear, they would have been farmed. This combat system is extremely efficient at finding the weak links.

Why are you so vehemently against this? How is this not a step in the right direction versus the dumpster fire we have now?

YoureWrongImRight

Never said that just giving them gold gear would make new players win, the entire point of everything I have said is that even with the same gear as you they still wouldn't win.

So knowing that you, still feel the need to give them a literal stat disadvantage where they could literally NEVER win, they are deficient in skill and in stats. Everything I have said is about making the disadvantage smaller.

How many times have I seen people say "OH I can farm noobs in gold gear even when I'm in trash blue gear". Okay that's very nice for you, so why do you feel the need to crank your stats way beyond theirs when it's obvious you don't need it.

charlieb

Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, without offence I honestly believe ESO ain’t built for ranked PvP. 4v4v4 ain’t built for ranked PvP. ZoS would literally need to start updating their game and balancing sets more frequently. They would need to shift focus from Cyro to BGs which I don’t think would happen.

How would you even do an ELO system with 3 teams? Win rate? DOGWATER with objective modes being garbage. K/D/A? Rip healers. Medal score? High ELO crit healers nice.

Just give us custom BGs, literally the easiest option. I don’t trust ZoS to have a proper ELO or matchmaking system. You can’t compare class/stat averages like other games. I don’t see ZoS implementing a good system unless some big changes come with it.

Aznox

charlieb wrote: »

How would you even do an ELO system with 3 teams? Win rate?

Yes.

Queue 1 : Objective modes / Current MMR system (no ranking) / Solo or Duo queuing

Queue 2 : DM / New ranking system based on winrate / Solo queuing

Queue 3 : DM / New ranking system (different leaderboard than queue 2) / 4man queuing

Queue time would be as fast as it is today for queue 1 and 2, and queue 3 would be mostly hardcore groups organizing themselves to queue at the same time during peak hours.

Everyone who really plays BG would be happier:

Objective players would have almost no hardcore players in their BG.

Competitive DM players can fight more balanced matches between themselves and play the ranking.

We can see a true hardcore 4v4v4 scene emerge in the group DM queue.

(Of course several players that do not like the current BG PvP and are not interested in making it better will reply here asking for a complete rework instead, like standardized stats, balance changes, and other off-topic suggestions, but I won't engage in this discussion).

Aldoss

charlieb wrote: »

Just give us custom BGs, literally the easiest option. I don’t trust ZoS to have a proper ELO or matchmaking system. You can’t compare class/stat averages like other games. I don’t see ZoS implementing a good system unless some big changes come with it.

I'd be happy if this were the only change ZOS implemented after this several year long debacle.

charlieb

Aznox wrote: »

charlieb wrote: »

How would you even do an ELO system with 3 teams? Win rate?

Yes.

Queue 1 : Objective modes / Current MMR system (no ranking) / Solo or Duo queuing

Queue 2 : DM / New ranking system based on winrate / Solo queuing

Queue 3 : DM / New ranking system (different leaderboard than queue 2) / 4man queuing

Queue time would be as fast as it is today for queue 1 and 2, and queue 3 would be mostly hardcore groups organizing themselves to queue at the same time during peak hours.

Everyone who really plays BG would be happier:

Objective players would have almost no hardcore players in their BG.

Competitive DM players can fight more balanced matches between themselves and play the ranking.

We can see a true hardcore 4v4v4 scene emerge in the group DM queue.

(Of course several players that do not like the current BG PvP and are not interested in making it better will reply here asking for a complete rework instead, like standardized stats, balance changes, and other off-topic suggestions, but I won't engage in this discussion).

So second place counts as a win or a loss?

Que times absolutely would not be the same for a ranked solo queue when you have different ranks.

4man premade ghost town queue. Why even have ranked if you still have to coordinate with two other teams to queue? Now imagine rewards tied to rank, oh lawd.

Just “make it ranked bro,” ain’t gonna cut it.

I want ZoS to fix some problems in this game not create more tbh.

YoureWrongImRight

And of course since ESO players are all top tier lovers of equality and balance, we won't see the sudden emergence of 10,000 smurf accounts to farm noobs.

And we are just to assume that good players will just want to play ranked all the time and will never enter the unranked queue's where the noobs are expected to go and farm them.

This whole system basically just gives vet players more options for "I can play serious when I want" and "I have a direct line to go farm noobs" when I want. Even with this glorious ranking system you can always get to them, sounds great for you, not great for them.

divnyi

So pay for account and level up toons just to have a bit of time in low ranks until you get higher? *yawn*

YoureWrongImRight

divnyi wrote: »

So pay for account and level up toons just to have a bit of time in low ranks until you get higher? *yawn*

lol as if that's a time consuming endeavor? literally takes 1 day to level a character and people just intentionally lose a few matches to maintain low MMR... that's how smurfing works. Exists in literally every other ranked game but you think this one would be immune?

divnyi

I'd say this game wants 1v1 and 3v3 rankeds, not 4v4v4.

Although it would be hard to implement 3v3 system that doesn't tolerate stalling after the first kill. 3 teams actually solve this issue, but is vulnerable to two teams being the same guild and grouping on third.

Dem_kitkats1

Aldoss wrote: »

Why are you so vehemently against this? How is this not a step in the right direction versus the dumpster fire we have now?

It's a dumpster fire because people want the system to change without changing anything. The only change a ranking system provides is separation between new/casual players and vets, with a few extra incentives for vet players. But without making changes and resolving the core issues of the game, you're promising an experience that's really not that different than now.

A ranking system only works and is rewarding when there is a population that is large and diverse, which is why the question of population is important. Who are you going to even fight when the already low population is splintered even further? You'll be running into the same situation as now in having to curate groups and schedule times to run matches in order for fights to occur in a timely matter. Put a ranking system in place now and solo queues will also be affected from players having to wait to find others who match their rank. The vets who do return, how long will they stay when the issues that annoyed them before are still there? Also, lets face it, many vets who have been playing the game for years are older, have more demands in life now, which means they have less time to dedicate to gaming in general, which means we need to get other players in more quickly to fill in those gaps. Healthy games are games that can regenerate population quickly.

People are suggesting the implementation of standardized gear, because it would help to alleviate some of the main issues that the community has been facing since the inception of BGs:

1. Builds are the biggest barrier to entry in this game. Instead of being able to just jump in and focus on learning the skills and tactics required to face their opponents, new players have to spend countless hours researching, and farming gear, only to find out it doesn't work for their playstyle. Then, on top of that, they need to level up various skill lines to be remotely competitive. Not all gear is accessible when mythics and new gear sets are only available through purchasing DLCs and ESO+. PvE players already playing the game might be more inclined to try BGs because their own gear doesnt give them such a disadvantage when they're simply trying it out. Plus they dont have to farm their gear and then PvP gear on top of that. Normalized gear and stats simply allows players to jump in immediately, work on their combat skills, and fight their way up the ranks more easily. Starting on equal footing also reduces the large skill gap, which results in the population growing and diversifying more quickly. That's how the most competitive games stay populated and competitive. Proof is in the pudding of the top competitive games.

2. Balance in BGs will never be achieved or prioritized when Devs have to take into consideration all other aspects of the game. However, if you were to take gear out of the equation, the only balance players need to worry about is class imbalances. This would make it easier for Devs to actually see how the classes, themselves, are performing and implement changes based on that. That way we can avoid constant situations like these that resulted in many players turning away from the game:

Aldoss wrote: »

BGs are now a game of "avoid DC for 10 minutes" except for the 1 in 10 matches you get where everyone is on the same page that the set is the worst thing to happen to ESO in its entire existence, so no one runs it.

Either no one has it or half or more of the lobby has it. It was fine when there was only one person with it. That doesn't happen anymore. It's an all or nothing gambling game now and one that I choose to no longer play.

hesobad wrote: »

Is the nerf coming soon or not? Like the no CP community is so completely broken, more so than CP because bleeds, sloads and Zaan are over performing so harshly in no CP. not to mention incap

If this game is as skill based (in the tradtional sense) as people claim it to be, then I'm not sure why normalized gear and stats would be so terrible for BGs only. You would still have other content in which you can still theorycraft. Or refuse to make any changes, and accept that the game will not be competitive anytime soon.

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

And of course since ESO players are all top tier lovers of equality and balance, we won't see the sudden emergence of 10,000 smurf accounts to farm noobs.

And we are just to assume that good players will just want to play ranked all the time and will never enter the unranked queue's where the noobs are expected to go and farm them.

This whole system basically just gives vet players more options for "I can play serious when I want" and "I have a direct line to go farm noobs" when I want. Even with this glorious ranking system you can always get to them, sounds great for you, not great for them.

Lowbies smurfs are a prime example of that.

Aldoss

@Dem_kitkats1 if someone can prove this statement wrong, by all means go for it:

No other game has ever had to solve the current dilemma that ESO has.

BGs have had drastic changes done to them nearly every year since being unveiled. That plus poor patch deliveries compounded by ZOS being ZOS have gotten us to the low populations we have.

There's no guarantee that any suggestion being presented on these board will have any actual impact on solving that problem. Even reverting back to "the good ol' days" is a roll of the dice as to whether or not the BG population can be brought back.

If you don't agree that ranking will do it, say it, and then move on. I'm voicing support for some iteration of a ranking system because I believe it will help kick start the inclusion of new players into BG format combat without the inevitable immediate experience that PvP is silly because everyone else is so much better, so why even try?

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that this forum board is neglected and isn't monitored in any real terms by any ZOS staff member. None of our ideas will make it to a director who makes the final judgement call on these kinds of decisions.

Thank you to all who have shared their thoughts. I feel I've said my peace. I hope ZOS hears any of us and can see that this is a community in deep frustration that really needs some care and attention before it flat lines.

Rhaegar75

Sadly i cannot add anything new apart from voicing my frustration with the current state BGs are.

Somehow I must be in the top/high bracket as I seem to find myself in some pretty well followed streamers’ videos.

It’s a very strong divide between truly pro players and the normal ones like me…. It’s the same players rotating unless somehow I end up in a BG where all of a sudden I’m in god mode……10 minutes later I’m back in pleb mode against the Pros…..perms death

Would I like to get better? Of corse…the infamous git gud ……unfortunately I have no time to dedicate to training in a videogame.

If the system was more fluid I’d probably end up playing with other people in my skill bracket…result: a larger pool of players and more interesting matches

Silversmith

I feel like there is less than 100 unique ids that play battlegrounds regularly.

CameraBeardThePirate

Silversmith wrote: »

I feel like there is less than 100 unique ids that play battlegrounds regularly.

Because the community has been severely neglected. There haven't been any new maps, balance changes, or game modes in literal years, despite BGs being the least laggy and most functional pvp in the game. It's no wonder the BG community has been hemorrhaging players when the only significant changes to BGs in the past 2 years were taking away the player's ability to choose the gamemode they want.

Rhaegar75

I’m fine with no new maps or anything…..give us a decent ranking system.

This evening I ended up playing against groups that dished out 7m + damage and a ton of healing…. Not great fun.

Please ZOS can we get to a stage where ‘normal players’ like me are not stuck fighting streamers or Uber players?!?!?! It’s not fun

However, if Cyro is truly fixed I will say bye to the toxic BGs and stick to Cyro: larger player base and in general more balanced fights

TheS1X

Yup, it sux, I play against top players who are with crazy builds and I am far from equal with them.
I lose a lot or quit a lot because it is just frustrating, I even gave up on PVP and enjoyed PVE and other games and even after 3 months of not touching BGs I am still matched against those crazy CP 2k+ players.
So yeah, I totally agree on creating ELO system where people can fall back down and play against equal competitors.