Overland Content Feedback Thread

Ronin37

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

spartaxoxo

I actually think the game will change and have hopes for it. I think they will at least give us a little something. I sure hope they do, at any rate.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

spartaxoxo

@ZOS_Kevin

I know you may not be able to do this, but if you can could you please give us a total guess estimation of when you'd guys have a new response for us? Or any kind of status update? I know last week you said you guys were working on it.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

Not sure what RPGs you have played but what you are describing are Japanese visual novels. If I played an RPG with no challenge (which I have) they go back to the store. RPGs and and challenge are not strangers like Baulders Gate or Ultima. Original EQ had plenty of role players but still was satisfying in the challenge department. To be honest I am not sure what kind of gamers are you people because you surely not casual. You have gone beyond to the point you really don't want an actual game. Just a cosplay arena.

I come from pen&paper role play - you know, the original old-school role play, where you are sitting around a table, with your character sheets in front of you - and game master is basically advancing the story based on player input and the rule sets used - a player is not playing himself, but the character which is described by the attributes of this character on the character sheet and decisions of the character are made by the player but based on what the character is experiencing and as based on his personality, interests, dislikes and likes, his mental abilities and as well how he is perceived by others.

If you have a character with very low charisma for example, that can have lots of reasons, he could have a disability which other people don't accept or do not want to be confronted with - and that is why he has low charisma - or he could have tourette syndrome, randomly shouting insults at people - old-school role players put a lot of thought into how their characters are and form a idea how to play this character, which is matching the character attributes on the character sheet the best.

A video game cannot really reflect this kind of role play very well yet - but it is interesting to play like this and it not like cosplay, it is not imitating something, but actually giving life to those numbers on the character sheet - in a way your avatar is a little bit like this - those stats and skills he has, define it's abilities in the game - but what it does not have is personality - it is just an empty hull whcih you are using as an avatar - it is not a character on it's very own - old-school role play gives this avatar a personality and character on it's own - it is rich game play in itself - I wouldn't want to miss it.

Ok then larping is a better word than cosplay. And also your D&d character is pretty is pretty much an empty husk you are using as a char. Also play games like Neverwinter Nights, not the MMO.

SilverBride

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

You guys want easy trash mobs to get to your nodes and such. Personally I would make them all harder but that seems like a fair trade.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

Also nothing is perma nuked in the game now so how would that change.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

Not sure what RPGs you have played but what you are describing are Japanese visual novels. If I played an RPG with no challenge (which I have) they go back to the store. RPGs and and challenge are not strangers like Baulders Gate or Ultima. Original EQ had plenty of role players but still was satisfying in the challenge department. To be honest I am not sure what kind of gamers are you people because you surely not casual. You have gone beyond to the point you really don't want an actual game. Just a cosplay arena.

I come from pen&paper role play - you know, the original old-school role play, where you are sitting around a table, with your character sheets in front of you - and game master is basically advancing the story based on player input and the rule sets used - a player is not playing himself, but the character which is described by the attributes of this character on the character sheet and decisions of the character are made by the player but based on what the character is experiencing and as based on his personality, interests, dislikes and likes, his mental abilities and as well how he is perceived by others.

If you have a character with very low charisma for example, that can have lots of reasons, he could have a disability which other people don't accept or do not want to be confronted with - and that is why he has low charisma - or he could have tourette syndrome, randomly shouting insults at people - old-school role players put a lot of thought into how their characters are and form a idea how to play this character, which is matching the character attributes on the character sheet the best.

A video game cannot really reflect this kind of role play very well yet - but it is interesting to play like this and it not like cosplay, it is not imitating something, but actually giving life to those numbers on the character sheet - in a way your avatar is a little bit like this - those stats and skills he has, define it's abilities in the game - but what it does not have is personality - it is just an empty hull whcih you are using as an avatar - it is not a character on it's very own - old-school role play gives this avatar a personality and character on it's own - it is rich game play in itself - I wouldn't want to miss it.

Ok then larping is a better word than cosplay. And also your D&d character is pretty is pretty much an empty husk you are using as a char. Also play games like Neverwinter Nights, not the MMO.

I play Elder Scrolls - the role playing game - if you want it or not, it is just a multi-player role play game in overland - that is why you guys are well tucked away from us - with low difficulty in overland - I can see that now, that it has this effect to protect us and let's us play Elder Scrolls like we were used to (normal mode TES games though) - I keep playing it like this as long as the game design allows me to do that and enrich it with old-school role play mechanics and empathy, given life to the character and personality of the avatar - if it would not be possible anymore, it would be time to bury Elder Scrolls for good.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

Also nothing is perma nuked in the game now so how would that change.

Because you don't like it and have no challenge there - and now I think this actually a good thing. Your list has jsut shown me the true nature of your request - better rewards just bosses more challenging - you give a damn about quests and the other content - you don't need a vet overland.

Ronin37

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Not a dev there, I have no clue how the varying levels of difficulty would work. That is something they would have to figure out, beta test, and tune.

spartaxoxo

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

You guys want easy trash mobs to get to your nodes and such. Personally I would make them all harder but that seems like a fair trade.

How would you solve the rewards issue? Rich touched on but didn't elaborate that there was an incentive issue where it's like obviously you have to but how?

I actually wonder about that a bit with the idea of a separate instance or even challenge banners (even though I like them) because they are one time only things. And should remain that way imo, as repeatable quests always seem to end up being remembered more for the difficulty of the encounter (or lack thereof) than they are for their stories. Like even having made a video about Frostvault's story the most memorable part of that dungeon is the first and last boss fight.

With a debuff slider or a new zone it's pretty easy, new zones have nobody who have completed it already so obviously normal incentives can apply. Debuff slider you can be like give it gold gain, maybe a title for killing x mobs while under the effect.

But a new vet version of say the Greenshade quests...well that was one and done. So how does that work for people who already did it?

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Why they need to know that? Nobody is asking us how difficult the new trials or dungeons should be, they just do them and then adjust on pts (sometimes) based on their numbers and feedback. Always develop harder encounters like that, they don't need our feedback on that now, they will need it when it will hit pts

Parasaurolophus

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

Not sure what RPGs you have played but what you are describing are Japanese visual novels. If I played an RPG with no challenge (which I have) they go back to the store. RPGs and and challenge are not strangers like Baulders Gate or Ultima. Original EQ had plenty of role players but still was satisfying in the challenge department. To be honest I am not sure what kind of gamers are you people because you surely not casual. You have gone beyond to the point you really don't want an actual game. Just a cosplay arena.

Cosplay arena. Exactly this.

spartaxoxo

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Not a dev there, I have no clue how the varying levels of difficulty would work. That is something they would have to figure out, beta test, and tune.

Personally I feel it should be VMA hard. There's no challenge in content tuned at Craglorn difficulty.

Arthtur

I dont think rewards should be tied to story quests. I would say something like this:

Achievement - Kill all of the WB in X after using Challenge Banner.
Reward - Color for Outfits + Title

Achievement - Do 30 daily quests for X after using Challenge Banner
Reward - Unlocks basic mount to buy from stablemaster (Guar in VV etc.)

If there would be an option for harder delves and public dungeons then:
Achievement - Clear all delves, public dungeons and WB after using Challenge Banner
Reward - Maybe special furnishing from zone like statue + something else like title or maybe special style page.

Those were for achievements so now time for rewards for doing content:
Each boss in zone has "special" drop after using Challenge Banners. Let it be runeboxes with pets, special furnishings, house guests (Nereid for example), tatoo, style page etc. Of course im not a specialist so i dont know what would be exacly a good balance. The point is to be able to farm this and sell them so ppl can buy them if they dont want to farm those. I think it would be nice.

We can also add busts for WB. I love those so i wouldnt mind having more of them.
Treasure maps which would help with farming those motifs from leads...

I wouldnt add more gold for harder content. Instead i would add something like "Adventurer backpack" which will drop materials for potions or something like that. Like whats the point of getting gold if u are losing it anyway because potions costs so much?


Those are for Challenge Bannersin standard zones. For adventure zone it would look diffrent. Those are just examples how rewards could work.

Of course those are my examples and i love furnishings soo.... everyone would like diffrent rewards and its okey.

Lysette

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Not a dev there, I have no clue how the varying levels of difficulty would work. That is something they would have to figure out, beta test, and tune.

Personally I feel it should be VMA hard. There's no challenge in content tuned at Craglorn difficulty.

Your idea of an adventure zone as DLC content is still a valid one in my books - but I'm now against anything what puts you in overland content - be it separate or not - it is a lot of work for ZOS to do, and you do not want to quest there and do the content , but just picking raisins - the list of Ronin is pretty clear about what you want - this is not worth doing for ZOS and it would alienate us who are enjoying overland - ZOS will not shoot in their both feet. The game is very successful as it is - if you like it or not, most people enjoy it as it is - and to refactor all the many zones just for you to pick raisins in them -not going to happen.

spartaxoxo

Arthtur wrote: »

I dont think rewards should be tied to story quests. I would say something like this:

Achievement - Kill all of the WB in X after using Challenge Banner.
Reward - Color for Outfits + Title

Achievement - Do 30 daily quests for X after using Challenge Banner
Reward - Unlocks basic mount to buy from stablemaster (Guar in VV etc.)

If there would be an option for harder delves and public dungeons then:
Achievement - Clear all delves, public dungeons and WB after using Challenge Banner
Reward - Maybe special furnishing from zone like statue + something else like title or maybe special style page.

Those were for achievements so now time for rewards for doing content:
Each boss in zone has "special" drop after using Challenge Banners. Let it be runeboxes with pets, special furnishings, house guests (Nereid for example), tatoo, style page etc. Of course im not a specialist so i dont know what would be exacly a good balance. The point is to be able to farm this and sell them so ppl can buy them if they dont want to farm those. I think it would be nice.

We can also add busts for WB. I love those so i wouldnt mind having more of them.
Treasure maps which would help with farming those motifs from leads...

I wouldnt add more gold for harder content. Instead i would add something like "Adventurer backpack" which will drop materials for potions or something like that. Like whats the point of getting gold if u are losing it anyway because potions costs so much?


Those are for Challenge Bannersin standard zones. For adventure zone it would look diffrent. Those are just examples how rewards could work.

Of course those are my examples and i love furnishings soo.... everyone would like diffrent rewards and its okey.

So you want the rewards for challenge banners tied moreso to world bosses rather than story ones? That could be interesting because a casual could easily post in zone chat for help if they wanted to try and earn it, rather than being locked out completely the way it being tied to a story boss would since they can't get help with that and just have to be good enough.

I think that could potentially be a cool way to go about it.

spartaxoxo

Lysette wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Not a dev there, I have no clue how the varying levels of difficulty would work. That is something they would have to figure out, beta test, and tune.

Personally I feel it should be VMA hard. There's no challenge in content tuned at Craglorn difficulty.

Your idea of an adventure zone as DLC content is still a valid one in my books - but I'm now against anything what puts you in overland content - be it separate or not - it is a lot of work for ZOS to do, and you do not want to quest there and do the content , but just picking raisins - the list of Ronin is pretty clear about what you want - this is not worth doing for ZOS and it would alienate us who are enjoying overland - ZOS will not shoot in their both feet. The game is very successful as it is - if you like it or not, most people enjoy it as it is - and to refactor all the many zones just for you to pick raisins in them -not going to happen.

I'm fairly certain Ronin said the opposite of that with their suggestion. What Ronin proposed is only the bosses are effected and the mobs that get in the way of "raisins" be left alone.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

Also nothing is perma nuked in the game now so how would that change.

Because you don't like it and have no challenge there - and now I think this actually a good thing. Your list has jsut shown me the true nature of your request - better rewards just bosses more challenging - you give a damn about quests and the other content - you don't need a vet overland.

What are you talking about. I like the quest in this game but they are also the biggest let down part of this game. I can't take any big bad seriously. The Dead Lands and Cold Harbor should make you think twice about going there if you know the lore. Instead they might as well be a bunny filled meadow. And don't get me started about Murkmire.

If you ever played LOTRO and went into Moria for the first time you would know what I speak of. Yeah after you max level the area its pretty trivial but getting through it is satisfying and the story is good. ESO does not have that. Yeah its chock full of quest and such but there is never a satisfying conclusion to any of them. Your char never goes through a proper heroes journey. So the entire experience is trivialized.

spartaxoxo

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Would all the overland mobs become more difficult or just story bosses?
Story bosses

Would mini bosses become more difficult or just the main boss at the end of the zone's story?
increase mini boss difficulty but not to the level of main boss

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

Would all mobs have more mechanics?
No, mobs have plenty mechanics. We don't see them because the mob dies in 5 seconds

Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
Same as above

Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
Same as above

How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
Not sure if this is needed. really agree with challenge banners

Would there be additional rewards?
Yes. The last Halloween event is a good example. No point in added a nice challenging boss or event and then give out dirt. No other game really does that and why would you. Challenges are built on reward systems.

As a note we know this thread is here to coral all of this. I highly doubt that ZOS will change anything so the uber care bears can relax. your game is not going to change.

On my - so this basically means, you will nuke everything in your way until you get to the story boss to get your challenge - so if you are with us in the same zone, we have nothing left to play because you guys are perma-nuking our game content.

I am strictly against this.

Also nothing is perma nuked in the game now so how would that change.

Because you don't like it and have no challenge there - and now I think this actually a good thing. Your list has jsut shown me the true nature of your request - better rewards just bosses more challenging - you give a damn about quests and the other content - you don't need a vet overland.

What are you talking about. I like the quest in this game but they are also the biggest let down part of this game. I can't take any big bad seriously. The Dead Lands and Cold Harbor should make you think twice about going there if you know the lore. Instead they might as well be a bunny filled meadow. And don't get me started about Murkmire.

If you ever played LOTRO and went into Moria for the first time you would know what I speak of. Yeah after you max level the area its pretty trivial but getting through it is satisfying and the story is good. ESO does not have that. Yeah its chock full of quest and such but there is never a satisfying conclusion to any of them. Your char never goes through a proper heroes journey. So the entire experience is trivialized.

I actually find the quests quite satisfying storywise. Murkmire was one of my favorites though not the best one. But they would definitely be enhanced by challenge banners. I mean Rada-Al Saran looks cool as all get out, I remember the setting made me go "oh snappp" then I remembered what game I was playing. So I waited around for his immunity phases to be over and then trivially killed him.

tomofhyrule

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

How much more difficult would they become?
This is something the devs would need to tune.

Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
Sure. Keeps things interesting

The developers need to know how much difficulty the players want if they are to establish something that will please them.

How would varying degrees of difficulty work? Would there be different levels of veteran overland or just some mobs more difficult than others? Or both?

Not a dev there, I have no clue how the varying levels of difficulty would work. That is something they would have to figure out, beta test, and tune.

Personally I feel it should be VMA hard. There's no challenge in content tuned at Craglorn difficulty.

Just something to keep in mind - overland is supposed to be for everyone, not just leet DPS players - and I think a lot of people are underestimating how 40k+ DPS is unobtainable for a vast majority of the playerbase. Yes, I know everyone's claiming 'but optional!' but please also remember that there isn't an optional 'easy/solo mode' to get trial/dungeon stories either. ESO is unique in that there's a decent population of players who are here for the 'Elder Scrolls' part of the game, not the 'Online' part - they may not want to/care about group content or getting better at their role. They want to just see parts of Tamriel that haven't been seen since Arena.

And again, 'we should push people to be better at their role' doesn't shouldn't always mean 'you need to be a good DPS!'

Here's a picture from back in early September - my first vMA clear:

Total time: 3:39, all of the vitality gone.

Note that by this point, I've been playing over 2 years. Ihad over 1100 CP. I've completed every vet dungeon, including the two new ones. Of the DLC, I did 14/22 hardmodes, 14/22 speedruns, and 7/22 nodeaths, with 5 Challenger achieves. I completed every trial on vet, including the Crags on HM. I've even managed to solo some of the vet HMs solo with a Companion. I may not be elite, but I do think that I qualify as 'vet-level' at that point.

But I always thought vMA would be forever out of my reach. Why? Notice my weapon I have there. I play a tank. My biggest DPS contributor was Leeching Plate; I was normally around 10k DPS. I cleared vMA on a tank with 50 points in health, and vVH wasn't a problem until Maebroogha. But I can't physically do the DPS check in vVH with the build I want, which is the build I made based on my character's story (he's more of a stonewall sort of character who can take a lot of damage but not really dish it out). Now, I've gotten better, and I now have a DPS build specifically to do arenas. I had to rebuild my character totally to clear and I'm working on my Undying Song and Flawless achieves (which is so much easier with a proper DPS build). But rebuilding the character to do a specific piece of content goes against the idea of "play as you want." When I'm running high-level content with a group, I don't feel like I'm playing an RPG anymore, I feel like I'm doing a job with a tool (or more accurately, the raid leader is telling you what tool to use and about the only 'role play' you have is deciding what outfit to wear). I do it and it's fun to play with friends, but I could be playing a black box with buttons for all I care then since the storytelling doesn't factor into the difficulty.

Yes, I was proud of my unoptimized vMA. I was even proud when my unoptimized character made it through nVH. But if we're going to talk about 'optional vet modes,' we also need to try not to introduce more toxicity into the game - it should be "normal" and "I want to challenge myself mode," not "baby noob mode" and "expected mode to get any respect in the game." We do already have problems with people not respecting new players - there are players who will kick low CPs from basegame random normals since they're 'too low level,' or speedrunning and not even noticing that others may be on dungeon quests
(my last time running a RND, we got Dread Cellar one of the DPS pulled the first trash mob instantly before I could get there, and that caused the questgiver to despawn for the healer and screwed them out of their skill point).

This is another point of consternation - why is "things are too easy" only considering people who can lay down 100k+ DPS. Imagine if the shades were unkillable and only way to clear Maebroogha's tether mechanic was to instead turtle up in the center and buff resistances while the arena got smaller and the colossi came in and pounded you in the center, forcing everyone to play tank (requires heavy armor and a decent investment into health) on that fight, there would be a lot more people complaining about it being unfair. But as it is, it's a DPS check and dedicated healers/tanks are supposed to rebuild into a DPS - that's what the Armory is for, right? Now if that mechanic could be translated into an overland boss... what if Lady Belain did the shade ring instead of her portals around the room, and the shades couldn't be defeated. You'd only be able to defeat her by building into a full-HP tank with basically no damage output. The fight would take longer, definitely. You'd really have to focus on mechanics since you're not doing much damage and one misstep means you get to reset the whole thing. But people would complain, and rightly so. Nobody wants to fight a damage sponge with a wet noodle. I did that when I did vCoHI HM solo and the last pull took 20 minutes. It was exhausting. And I'm sure a full DPS build can do it without breaking a sweat, but it seems nobody considers 'let me rebuild my character into something other than a DPS to make it challenging,' since they see 'why would I debuff myself?'

...at least soloing things as a tank is making me really good at dealing with mechanics, because you have to be on point since you can't burn things down. It's even what got me to get the 'Missed Me By That Much' achievement in vVH - true I was playing on a DPS there but I still can't nuke her totally, but I know the mechanics. A lot of my guildies said you could only get it by sorc cheesing the tether or nuking her before it even happened, but that's not true. I did the tether at the last second flawlessly seven times in a row and took my time with it because I've drilled mechanics over raw damage output.

Let's get some tank/healer checks, in dungeons and even in solo content, so supports can feel valued as players. As it is, it feels like only leet DPS are considered 'good players' in this game sometimes. At least in overland, I can take overland bosses down in a reasonable amount of time. It's hard, as a support main, to see people say "we should have a vet mode just for us!" and only hear "screw supports, go play with the rest of the noobs" sometimes.

spartaxoxo

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Let's get some tank/healer checks, in dungeons and even in solo content, so supports can feel valued as players. As it is, it feels like only leet DPS are considered 'good players' in this game sometimes. At least in overland, I can take overland bosses down in a reasonable amount of time. It's hard, as a support main, to see people say "we should have a vet mode just for us!" and only hear "screw supports, go play with the rest of the noobs" sometimes.

I mean I have been pretty vocally supportive of debuffs as the way to increase difficulty precisely because they are customizable to a different players needs pretty easily.

But if they were to go down the path of a vet mode with one difficulty, then I still think it should be vma difficulty. Not because I dislike healers or tanks but because there really isn't a lot of content for solo builds looking for that level of challenge. Tanks and healers should be able to get completes much slower so I'm not necessarily in favor of a dps check in the fashion of vvh's ghost tether mech, but that level of difficulty is good. And as you demonstrated, perfectly completable by tanks and healers.

tomofhyrule

spartaxoxo wrote: »

But if they were to go down the path of a vet mode with one difficulty, then I still think it should be vma difficulty. Not because I dislike healers or tanks but because there really isn't a lot of content for solo builds looking for that level of challenge. Tanks and healers should be able to get completes much slower so I'm not necessarily in favor of a dps check in the fashion of vvh's ghost tether mech, but that level of difficulty is good. And as you demonstrated, perfectly completable by tanks and healers.

But the ghost tether is not completable by tanks and healers. I was permanently stuck there until I completely rebuilt my character into a DPS: backbar a MA bow, lose the SnB weapon skills and go for class skills, respec all attributes into stam, respec all CP out of resists and into dmg, etc. I'm still not good at DPS - I haven't just sit and parsed, but I think I'm pulling somewhere around 35k-ish in my setup and improving - but that's beside the point. The ghost tether can only be done by characters trained in DPS. You can't shield/heal through it. That means the design of that fight says that DPS is the single most important thing to that fight, and it a reason why supports are frustrated since they feel that they're not given options other than "just git gud and do more deeps, noob!"

(Yes, I know it's a 9.5k or so DPS check, but clearing 10k DPS while moving and getting hit by colossi and mages and slimes and everything is different than getting 10k on a parse dummy which throws you shards)

I've seen a lot of the toxicity thrown at people who do 'sub-par' DPS. I've seen how people are saying that DPS is all that matters. So to make a 'vet' instance where the only thing that matters is doing more DPS, that seems like it would only exacerbate the problem. Not to mention that redesigning even a small zone like Murkmire into vMA level mobs/bosses is a lot of work. You say there isn't a lot of content for solo builds looking for that level of challenge, but redoing a zone would take as much time (and possibly remove the option of having) a new one. Imagine if the Markarth DLC had just redone Western Skyrim to have a vet zone with harder enemies instead of giving us Vateshran hollows. Would that have been sufficient? Sure, you get a chance to fight King Svargrim, Belain, and Rada with harder mechanics and one shots, but at the expense of an entirely new arena.

I support debuffs. They could easily put in slottable CP stars to debuff your damage and resistances or allow enemies to crit or whatever, and that also means you can't rely on your CP buffs. That also would mean that the devs could still make new content instead of spending a lot of dev time just rehashing old stuff. I know that it seems insufficient to a lot of people, but dropping to 5-15k DPS would mean you need to focus a lot more on mechanics. True, the basegame stuff is very light on mechanics and I can still breeze through basegame bosses even wearing pYol, but each DLC is giving more and more mechanically intense fights...which people would notice if they weren't nuking things down. I actually enjoyed the fights in the Skyrim storyline since they were a lot of mechanics and it was more than just a 'drop my standard and finish,' but I didn't need to rebuild my whole character and spend three hours trying to find a way to cheese one fight. That's just frustrating. Hand the DPS a wet noodle and low resistances, and you'll have to start playing mechanics. After all, a dead DPS does 0 DPS.

And yes 'just wear white gear!' is not a debuff. There are people who can clear vMA without weapons faster than I could in my first attempt because they're that practiced at the game. But those people are the exception, not the ones that everything should be tuned around.

This is something I notice since I do like to challenge myself by solo/duo with Companion in dungeons on normal or vet basegame - I really need to pay attention to the mechanics, and sometimes even try to get my Companion to stand in the right place (can we get a 'go there' command?). I can't rely on high DPS to clear everything. But as power creep goes, people get more and more used to skipping mechanics for straight-up burns. After all, when's the last time someone's even seen Lunar in vMoL? I know there are groups who will just wipe if they get to the 6th pad and Rakkhat's still not dead, and most groups will just send runners in the back once and ignore the backroom for the burn after that (or even ignore the backroom entirely). There are a lot of mechanics that exist in the game that people are used to burning through, so let's see them.

You know, "Deal 75/50/25/10% damage," "Take 50/100/200/300% damage," "Lower resists by 25/50/75/90%," "Skills cost 25/50/75/100% more," "Resources reduced by 15/30/45/60%," "Non-player enemies have a 10/20/30/40% chance to crit for 50/75/100/125% damage," etc. are all different debuffs that allow you to customize how difficult you want the game to be, and that wouldn't require a massive rebuild of a zone or a fight to get things done. It's a bit more than just 'lol don't eat food,' but it'd still add some danger where you didn't expect any - if you chose to let enemies crit, you may need to start building with Impen armor or else you'd find the dagger-throwing guy suddenly hit you like a vBRP footsoldier.
...and to people who say "vet content doesn't have the guy who walks backwards and throws the dagger like an idiot," I've seen DPS in vBRP get one-shot by that exact move. Does that mean that vBRP is fake difficulty since the mobs all have the same mechanics, they just hit like a truck?

spartaxoxo

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

But if they were to go down the path of a vet mode with one difficulty, then I still think it should be vma difficulty. Not because I dislike healers or tanks but because there really isn't a lot of content for solo builds looking for that level of challenge. Tanks and healers should be able to get completes much slower so I'm not necessarily in favor of a dps check in the fashion of vvh's ghost tether mech, but that level of difficulty is good. And as you demonstrated, perfectly completable by tanks and healers.

But the ghost tether is not completable by tanks and healers

Sure, but that's one mechanic out of all the arena fights in the game. As I said a DPS check in that vein isn't necessary to having difficult content on that level. Almost all the mechs in those arenas are doable with a tank or healer.

Ronin37

But a new vet version of say the Greenshade quests...well that was one and done. So how does that work for people who already did it?

That's the one thing I never got. I play this game with the wife and the fact you can't redo missions is a pain. But thankfully it is not as bad as is was at launch. Still missions should be repeatable as it helps with adventuring with others but as some have pointed out this is a massively online single player game.

summ0004

Some sort of debuff difficulty slider that is adjustable would work. And you get additional gold, xps and/or better item quality as you increase the slider.

That way people can tune if for their preferance based on difficulty and rewards.

Harvokaan

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You know, "Deal 75/50/25/10% damage," "Take 50/100/200/300% damage," "Lower resists by 25/50/75/90%," "Skills cost 25/50/75/100% more," "Resources reduced by 15/30/45/60%," "Non-player enemies have a 10/20/30/40% chance to crit for 50/75/100/125% damage," etc. are all different debuffs that allow you to customize how difficult you want the game to be, and that wouldn't require a massive rebuild of a zone or a fight to get things done. It's a bit more than just 'lol don't eat food,' but it'd still add some danger where you didn't expect any - if you chose to let enemies crit, you may need to start building with Impen armor or else you'd find the dagger-throwing guy suddenly hit you like a vBRP footsoldier.

I have two main issues with solution like this: mobs still charge their special attacks for 5s and those attacks are too easy to dodge and I don't like the idea of being debuffed in zone with players who are not, trolling potential is big. If they would increase the base cast speed and reduce cooldown then it might be okayish but that one would increase overland difficulty (not by much because damage for not debuffed players would stay the same) for all players.

CP5

Responding to Silver here.

• Would all the overland mobs become more difficult?
  If I'm doing a quest and the army of bandits sieging the town aren't a threat, why should I care? If deadra are pouring out of an oblivion gate, but so little as a field of caltrops are enough to stop their invasion, why should I care? If an ancient vampire raising an army of creatures of the night can't live long enough to get off his monologue, why should I care? It would need to be applicable to all mobs, as all of them play a role in establishing the tone of the world and story, though simple creatures I wouldn't expect to fight back with all that much vigor. But deadra worshipers? The undead? Other powerful things? They should fight like they care at least.
  
• How much more difficult would overland become?
  I honestly only feel one additional tier is needed. Standardizing the mobs around what you see in vet dungeons in terms of health (so trash mobs live long enough to act) and damage (so they hit hard enough to be worth paying attention to). But as other posters have mentioned, like Harvokaan said, many mobs take 5-10s to use some of their attacks. At that rate, they're better off just using their standard attack. When fighting a dragon, I don't flinch when they summon iron atronachs, those can be kited and laughed at while they stand still channeling attacks. But flame atronachs? When a dozen of those spawn sure one or two waste their time, but the rest spam their basic attacks, that's the real threat, not their special skills. I am of the mindset that if an enemy has an attack they put time into, it should actually do something impactful during the fight.
  
• Would mobs have more mechanics?
  Bosses for sure, but it isn't necessarily about having more mechanics. It's about having impactful ones. I don't care if an enemy archer is casting volley on a bush that I was standing near 10min ago. I don't care if a tank mob jumps into the air to try to land on me. Those attacks only waste the enemies time while I kill off their allies. Replacing worthless enemy skills with impactful ones would make fight more engaging on their own, like replacing the tanks urge to flee the fight with chains, or replace the archers taking aim with the barrage skill seen on the goblin archers in Frostvault.
  
• How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
  Just, a toggle, in some menu. If we went the route of instances it would just be an option like the one in the group menu, and when you toggle instance you'd just be ported to the nearest wayshrine in one of the other difficulties instances as is standard when switching instances.
  
• Would there be additional rewards? (I vote no.)
  Better rewards exist to compensate for the additional time spent. If two players spent an hour in game, one on normal and one on vet, I would expect both to be able to leave with roughly the same amount of exp gained. So increased exp from fights would be a thing. Additionally, you get less loot for killing fewer enemies, so an upgrade in quality, as is seen in every other instance of harder content, would make sense. The stat difference between blue and purple gear isn't as impactful as people may suspect and wouldn't "invalidate" the increased difficulty, plus there is no sensible world where gold gear would drop this way. But all bonuses to loot and exp would be tied only to fights, as it is too easy to farm chest and resources without fighting, and making players 'have' to go to a vet instance to turn in quest would be silly to say the least.

I've gone more in depth about some of these in prior post, but the lot of it boils down to this. Enemies need to live long enough to act in combat, be impactful in the fights they take part in, and actually provide enough resistance that I need to consider who I'm fighting, where I'm fighting, and what I should do in a fight. As is every melee and ranged npc does exactly the same as every other, they have the same health, deal the same damage, and their special attacks that differentiate them are so low impact they can just be ignored. A separate instance solution would allow healers to heal, conjurors to summon more dangerous creatures, let pyromancers set the world on fire, and so on. The 'self flag' system wouldn't allow for those sorts of things, but it could still at least give enemies the strength they need to sell the stakes of a story or the illusion that the daedric plain you're venturing in is actually a dangerous place.

SilverBride

@CP5 Thank you for a very well thought out post. It makes the proposal for a separate veteran overland much clearer knowing what it could actually entail.

I am still not convinced it's the best route but it does make more sense to me now.