Overland Content Feedback Thread

Chilly-McFreeze

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is no gameplay difference between a 100k player rolling in and nuking a group of vet overland before you get a hit in, and a 25k player doing the same to a debuffed player.

Either way the player didn't get to meaningfully interact with the mob in question.

The only difference is the immersion of some players, which is a subjective thing.

Saying one isn't a level playing field implies a gameplay difference that does not exist.

It is simply the reality of multiplayer gaming that you'll sometimes run into people who hit harder than you do.

Immersion is the whole reason some of us are asking for a vet overland.

Also, I'm one of those 100k guys (110k to be precise) so I don't care about differences between actual skills of players. If I saw someone nuking some quest enemies that I'm fighting faster than me in a vet overland I'd be impressed and be wanting to know how they did it. But if it was someone who simply weren't debuffed while I was? It's not a good feeling.

Sure but it's moreso the story immersion and not a competition with other players, yes? You want to have to deal with threats?Especially in boss fights which are already privately instanced so you won't run into another player. You're not likely to encounter this problem all that often and it can be resolved just by focusing on your own gameplay experience or waiting for them to get a bit ahead of you, which is already what less powerful players do when someone at your power level rolls through.

How many bosses are in private instances? Compared to those who are not, in % at best.

And yet again: you CAN push over a current (normal) quest boss with little effort. Even in Craglorn. Even on bad builds in the hands of "ordinary" players.
If they do it right, you have to actually invest in a good build and a bit honed skills to push over vet bosses. That is all depending on how they'd actually balance those vet optionals.

However with everyone thrown in the same pot it only leads to frustration when an unnerfed players rolls over the content of a debuffed one. Then they can save their effort to implement it at all. If I'd want that kind of bad experience I would go for the old "undress and unslot cp" advice many of you gave over the years.

You are actually pointing out another issue that gets resolved with vet instances: those leet players don't ruin the fun for the newbies by rushing through.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary baiting and some back and forth comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

LightningWitch

I don't understand what the point of this topic is, other than to give people a chance to vent.

The developers should know what we want.

Long time players have been asking for years for changes which have never come.

Proper balance, content released that's not buggy or broken, better content instead of the copy/repaint/paste format, more challenge, QoL things standard in every other game, and of course, stability in the PvP zone.

7 years, and barely a scratch in any of it.

Now this thread is posted so ... the developers have it easier to see the same complaints?

I feel this is nothing more than the boulder Sisyphus has to push up a mountain.

Chilly-McFreeze

Just to throw that in here bc we are talking about instanced chapter bosses currently. I just re-run elsweyr (northern) on a sub 50 toon, unoptimized of course.

Final Chapter boss Is Mulaamnir. While he has awe inspiring 15m health or so you'd actually break that down siginifantly with that Dragonhorn, shrubbing off millions of health at once.
His telegraphed attacks dealt around 5-6k damage, lighter attacks hit around 2-3k.
Main adds had 6.6k health. Thats around 2-3 light attacks on toons without a build. 2 adds had 60 / 85k health.

Yes, it did some time to finish the fight but that's because it's heavily scripted.
Now tell me gain how that instanced Chapter boss is anything of a threat.

LightningWitch wrote: »

I don't understand what the point of this topic is, other than to give people a chance to vent.

The developers should know what we want.

Long time players have been asking for years for changes which have never come.

Proper balance, content released that's not buggy or broken, better content instead of the copy/repaint/paste format, more challenge, QoL things standard in every other game, and of course, stability in the PvP zone.

7 years, and barely a scratch in any of it.

Now this thread is posted so ... the developers have it easier to see the same complaints?

I feel this is nothing more than the boulder Sisyphus has to push up a mountain.

Propably to have all the complaints in one threat so they can moderate it easier.

Casdha

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

However in the ESO, player strength is everything. So everyone can't stop painful grinding and gear farming.
Sigh, what kind of torture is this?

You already explained it yourself:

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, I love action games. "FarCry", "Horizon Zero Dawn", "Ghost of Tsushima" is my favorite.
Especially, I love FarCry series. The enemy base capture of FarCry is extremely fun!! So cool!!.
Each time engage the base capture mission, player find new walkthrough.

"Wow, there's under ground intrude entrance here, If I intrude here, I can destroy alarm easily."

"That high ground will be good sniping nest. If I could fly from mountain by wing suit, I can use this field tactics."

"When I search the area structure by binocular from high ground. I find predator cage.
If I shoot it by sniper rifle, funny chaos will happen there!!"

That is the kind of game you love. ESO isn't that kind of game.

You are correct but I believe the problem is that they started out trying to be, Why else would they use standard move, attack and evade controls from those types of games? They lured folks in with reactive combat controls then one of the first things to get changed was penalizing folks for dodging. They need to stop trying to mix turn base builds with reactionary combat and the more they try to fix it the more it gets broken.

Arthtur

About the players. Yes we are getting more and more players. How many of them will do endgame content? Because from what i saw in game we are losing endgame players. Its harder to find ppl for vet stuff and even if u will find u often get players not ready for harder content.

About the Rich quotes. He will always say what the players want to hear. For example... how many years PvP players are complaining about problems with PvP...? Sorry but i wont believe thats PvP is in good state. Sure he is right about thats most players are casual players who enjoy doing the story. But thats not a reason to throw away rest of the players. Its not like we are gonna destroy overland... Also before OT everything was forced and every zone was split into 3 difficulties if i remember correctly. And there were less players overall.

Every year the harder content is getting nerfed, because weaker players are complaining. Vet Frostvault Laser Boss is the most boring fight in the game after those nerfs, Vet Moonhunter Keep became "just burn the boss". Yes they are making easier DLC dungeons now while adding more challenge in HM but ppl are still complaining. So yeah, even in vet dlc dungeons we cant have anything difficult...

Well at this point i dont know what to even say. Casual players gets new zone - veteran players gets nerfs and mythic item that they need to get in order to ignore those nerfs. Veteran players gets new dlc dungeons - casual players complain that they didnt get anything and we should get a new zone instead of dlc dungeons... Sigh...

I will ask for one thing. Stop using quotes from Rich. Its like in previous threads. Somebody says something - no because "link to the twitch". Its not constructive in my opinion. Its just killing the discussion because somebody doesnt like it. Sure u can use it once to show somebody whats Rich said, but dont use it as a wall to block all the arguments.

SilverBride

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, I love action games.

That is the kind of game you love. ESO isn't that kind of game.

You are correct but I believe the problem is that they started out trying to be, Why else would they use standard move, attack and evade controls from those types of games? They lured folks in with reactive combat controls then one of the first things to get changed was penalizing folks for dodging. They need to stop trying to mix turn base builds with reactionary combat and the more they try to fix it the more it gets broken.

ESO was never the kind of action game he described, which is more of a military let's snipe from the top of this hill and sneak up on the enemy camp from behind etc.. It was still story driven as it is today but had many flaws.

spartaxoxo

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

However in the ESO, player strength is everything. So everyone can't stop painful grinding and gear farming.
Sigh, what kind of torture is this?

You already explained it yourself:

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, I love action games. "FarCry", "Horizon Zero Dawn", "Ghost of Tsushima" is my favorite.
Especially, I love FarCry series. The enemy base capture of FarCry is extremely fun!! So cool!!.
Each time engage the base capture mission, player find new walkthrough.

"Wow, there's under ground intrude entrance here, If I intrude here, I can destroy alarm easily."

"That high ground will be good sniping nest. If I could fly from mountain by wing suit, I can use this field tactics."

"When I search the area structure by binocular from high ground. I find predator cage.
If I shoot it by sniper rifle, funny chaos will happen there!!"

That is the kind of game you love. ESO isn't that kind of game.

You are correct but I believe the problem is that they started out trying to be, Why else would they use standard move, attack and evade controls from those types of games? They lured folks in with reactive combat controls then one of the first things to get changed was penalizing folks for dodging. They need to stop trying to mix turn base builds with reactionary combat and the more they try to fix it the more it gets broken.

It's not so much that they lured them in as it is it's not relevant unless you're playing a higher difficulty. Try not dodging something you need to in vet dungeons for example and you'll end up one shot.

The reason it's not in the quests is because they want those to serve as tutorial level content, basically. The real challenge is meant to be in auxiliary stuff like world bosses, dungeons, etc. Where the reactive gameplay is much more necessary to pay attention to

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

I wouldn't call the current state of the game healthy tbh.
ESO have a big problem and that is both end game pve and pvp players are leaving in masses.

There is no proof of this.

Rich Lambert said a few months ago that the game is doing better now than it ever has. I trust his word.

This is as well my impression - I resubbed after a longer time again and normal overland content is packed with lots of new players (at least seen by their character-levels)- so from my point of view, the game is very healthy and thriving despite the doom presented on this forum - the vast majority is just enjoying the game and not complaining on the forum, I guess. This creates a distorted view on the state of the game - it seems to be a splendid and really enjoyable game for most.

The game is as well better supported in regards to quality of life implementations - I have been absent for several months and so the improvements are quite obvious to me - finally stable connection, no connection loss anymore - overall better performance - hints when one is near to skyshards (quite nice, I still have to search for them, but it got easier without having to install an add-on) - interface improved, more info, when it is required, less unnecessary info for those, who want a light hud experience - this is all stuff I really like - and the quality of costumes, outfits and gear has improved as well - so yeah, I understand completely why new players flock to ESO now.

Now if they would stop making story NPCs stalking players - especially in the older regions - it would be great, they are annoying.

Harvokaan

Lysette wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

I wouldn't call the current state of the game healthy tbh.
ESO have a big problem and that is both end game pve and pvp players are leaving in masses.

There is no proof of this.

Rich Lambert said a few months ago that the game is doing better now than it ever has. I trust his word.

This is as well my impression - I resubbed after a longer time again and normal overland content is packed with lots of new players (at least seen by their character-levels)- so from my point of view, the game is very healthy and thriving despite the doom presented on this forum - the vast majority is just enjoying the game and not complaining on the forum, I guess. This creates a distorted view on the state of the game - it seems to be a splendid and really enjoyable game for most.

The game is as well better supported in regards to quality of life implementations - I have been absent for several months and so the improvements are quite obvious to me - finally stable connection, no connection loss anymore - overall better performance - hints when one is near to skyshards (quite nice, I still have to search for them, but it got easier without having to install an add-on) - interface improved, more info, when it is required, less unnecessary info for those, who want a light hud experience - this is all stuff I really like - and the quality of costumes, outfits and gear has improved as well - so yeah, I understand completely why new players flock to ESO now.

Mind that I'm talking mostly about the vet players population shrinking. Vet players are leaving but there is not enough fresh blood to keep the end game healthy. That is the simple fact, easy to spot when you are part of that community.
Zos not so long ago stated that the usual player spend in game around 6 weeks then leave and come back for big release. Zos targeted this kind of players and my whole point was that this kind of players are not the one who create content about the game that might be valuable for new/vet players or as free advertisement. I don't think catering mainly (sometimes i think only) to this part of the playerbase is healthy for the game in a long run.

Lysette

Harvokaan wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

I wouldn't call the current state of the game healthy tbh.
ESO have a big problem and that is both end game pve and pvp players are leaving in masses.

There is no proof of this.

Rich Lambert said a few months ago that the game is doing better now than it ever has. I trust his word.

This is as well my impression - I resubbed after a longer time again and normal overland content is packed with lots of new players (at least seen by their character-levels)- so from my point of view, the game is very healthy and thriving despite the doom presented on this forum - the vast majority is just enjoying the game and not complaining on the forum, I guess. This creates a distorted view on the state of the game - it seems to be a splendid and really enjoyable game for most.

The game is as well better supported in regards to quality of life implementations - I have been absent for several months and so the improvements are quite obvious to me - finally stable connection, no connection loss anymore - overall better performance - hints when one is near to skyshards (quite nice, I still have to search for them, but it got easier without having to install an add-on) - interface improved, more info, when it is required, less unnecessary info for those, who want a light hud experience - this is all stuff I really like - and the quality of costumes, outfits and gear has improved as well - so yeah, I understand completely why new players flock to ESO now.

Mind that I'm talking mostly about the vet players population shrinking. Vet players are leaving but there is not enough fresh blood to keep the end game healthy. That is the simple fact, easy to spot when you are part of that community.
Zos not so long ago stated that the usual player spend in game around 6 weeks then leave and come back for big release. Zos targeted this kind of players and my whole point was that this kind of players are not the one who create content about the game that might be valuable for new/vet players or as free advertisement. I don't think catering mainly (sometimes i think only) to this part of the playerbase is healthy for the game in a long run.

I agree seen from a vet-player's perspective - but this is commercial game - as long as there are enough new players, the game is healthy. In the end one cannot really make veteran players happy - they have played the game, they have bought what they need, so what is to gain from them, from a company perspective?- Not that much anymore, whereas new players need everything and are going to buy stuff, if the game is just enjoyable enough to stay in the game - and it is for new players, they can achieve something even if they are not that much into combat mechanics, have disabilities or are otherwise slow (like me due to high ping times - hard to get out of red for me at all) - so for those it is a good enjoyable game - and as long as there are enough new players, there is no reason to cater to those, who won't be happy for long - as in vet-players - what they are doing is adapt to the changes and the game will again be too easy for them - it is a waste of time and effort, they will not be happy in the long run anyway - that is imo, why the game caters to new audiences and not that much to vet-players.

Harvokaan

Lysette wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

I wouldn't call the current state of the game healthy tbh.
ESO have a big problem and that is both end game pve and pvp players are leaving in masses.

There is no proof of this.

Rich Lambert said a few months ago that the game is doing better now than it ever has. I trust his word.

This is as well my impression - I resubbed after a longer time again and normal overland content is packed with lots of new players (at least seen by their character-levels)- so from my point of view, the game is very healthy and thriving despite the doom presented on this forum - the vast majority is just enjoying the game and not complaining on the forum, I guess. This creates a distorted view on the state of the game - it seems to be a splendid and really enjoyable game for most.

The game is as well better supported in regards to quality of life implementations - I have been absent for several months and so the improvements are quite obvious to me - finally stable connection, no connection loss anymore - overall better performance - hints when one is near to skyshards (quite nice, I still have to search for them, but it got easier without having to install an add-on) - interface improved, more info, when it is required, less unnecessary info for those, who want a light hud experience - this is all stuff I really like - and the quality of costumes, outfits and gear has improved as well - so yeah, I understand completely why new players flock to ESO now.

Mind that I'm talking mostly about the vet players population shrinking. Vet players are leaving but there is not enough fresh blood to keep the end game healthy. That is the simple fact, easy to spot when you are part of that community.
Zos not so long ago stated that the usual player spend in game around 6 weeks then leave and come back for big release. Zos targeted this kind of players and my whole point was that this kind of players are not the one who create content about the game that might be valuable for new/vet players or as free advertisement. I don't think catering mainly (sometimes i think only) to this part of the playerbase is healthy for the game in a long run.

I agree seen from a vet-player's perspective - but this is commercial game - as long as there are enough new players, the game is healthy. In the end one cannot really make veteran players happy - they have played the game, they have bought what they need, so what is to gain from them, from a company perspective?- Not that much anymore, whereas new players need everything and are going to buy stuff, if the game is just enjoyable enough to stay in the game - and it is for new players, they can achieve something even if they are not that much into combat mechanics, have disabilities or are otherwise slow (like me due to high ping times - hard to get out of red for me at all) - so for those it is a good enjoyable game - and as long as there are enough new players, there is no reason to cater to those, who won't be happy for long - as in vet-players - what they are doing is adapt to the changes and the game will again be too easy for them - it is a waste of time and effort, they will not be happy in the long run anyway - that is imo, why the game caters to new audiences and not that much to vet-players.

Cannot agree on that. It is important to secure constant influx of new players, thats correct. What isn't is a statement that vet players cannot be happy or enjoy the product in a long run. MMOs tend to release stuff for both new layers and vets and try to keep both of them in the game as each type holds different kind of value. Vet players create content around the game, videos, sites, reddit, streams, etc. It is important to keep this population healthy. Wow start loosing their players in mases after big players with large communities around them move to different titles. Ppl who created machinimas, run sites, stream communities, whole discords. The loudest example would be asmongold who created a large community around and when he moved to ffxiv a huge amount of players move to final together with him. We are talking about more then 50k players, driven by single creator alone (it is still probably an underestimation as he gathers constantly above 100k unique viewers during his first final streams, mind that his core viewers back there were mostly wow players).
There is this old polish proverb "Ryba psuje sie od głowy" which basically you can translate to "The rot starts at the top". I'm not asking about cathering mostly to the vet community, zos shouldn't do that. But they need to throw a bone and sometimes give some love to end game pve and pvp players if they want to keep this free advertisement and communities gathered around specific individuals. One of the worst things that can happened is when ppl stop talking about your mmo, silence in net often prevents people from checking the title.
Releasing one trial a year and clling it a victory is not the way. And not giving pvpers anything, even working pvp is even worse. I was shocked when they advertise new pvp emote as a new addition to pvp, most my pvpers friends treated it as straight mockery into their faces from zos.

Lysette

Well, it is not the typical MMO in the first place - the series comes from single player and the game concept is made so, that it can be played as if it would be single player game. The original goal was something like "Skyrim with friends" and at start they certainly had the idea of mass battles in the 3 faction war - which turned out to be a bad idea whilst breaking the basic rule of client-server architecture (never trust the client) - so they had to change that and performance got worse pvp-wise - but it is still better than a game, where everyone can cheat easily - game like that do not survive in the long run.

The game is mainly pve content - story-driven and leisure compliant - it is not made to be challenging and does not require serious commitment to the game it is still an Elder Scroll game as it always had been - with a difficulty like you had in "normal" mode - TES in normal mode wasn't challenging either and so is the game now as well. There will be new players because the series is not going to end anytime soon - Skyrim was a huge success and still is and even when the next TES will be out there, it will bring new people to Elder Scrolls and if they have played the game and get to know, that there is an even bigger game world like this in ESO, this will still bring in new players for years to come.

Endgame is not part of this concept - not really imo - the game is the overland content from level 1 to 50 - everything after that is fine, but not really the focus - why would there otherwise be that many regions for pve content (in normal difficulty) and not that much content for higher difficulty?- The game is by concept not made to be challenging, but a continuation of the TES series - just online, to be played solo or with friends. The game has achieved that imo - and it caters even more to the single player community with NPC companions - why would there have to be companions, if there are enough other players? Simple answer, because most play it like they played TES before - solo with NPC companions - it is clearly not the typical MMO.

Edit:

I'll give you my personal opinion, how the game is best enjoyable (from a single player perspective). Avoid vet-players and guilds, which focus on pvp content, because they will bring people to rush through the game, get to level 50 as quickly as possible and then the endless grind for gear and champion points starts - and that, what would be the game is actually rushed through and now they are in a state, where they cannot enjoy most of the content anymore.

The better experience imo is, to stay clear of these endgame players and play the game like any TES game has been played before - just enjoying yourself in the game world, do a quest here and there and engage in other activities, which do not have a combat focus, like thievery, antiquities, story-content, eventually socializing in guilds, which do not have a combat focus (because that leads to overpowering oneself and this is counter-productive to enjoying the game, because it is not made for overpowered players).

colossalvoids

Would respectfully disagree with @Lysette on those points. It might be like that for some players for sure, zero doubt here but it's not for everyone (reason for this thread - everyone's experience matters, not only majority. if said majority even exists - doubt there's a majority's agreement on anything really, players are individuals).

That's just my own opinions, pretty safe to be ignored. For example i hardly can think of any Elder Scrolls game with such a difficulty level, even skyrim's apprentice would be more of a veteran in ESO if not abusing alchemy or enchanting loops but just "normal play". That was first thing I've noticed in ESO after playing elder scrolls games primarily for years - lack of difficulty, or better say that majority of content is more of a visual novel style whilst challenge, danger and exploration (adventure) only exists in some closed environments such as IC, Cyrodiil and veteran content of various difficulty.

I've had it as a given personally but nowadays when there's basically no pvp community left and pve endgame one starting to shrink dramatically again it's getting problematic as some of us are still here and want to enjoy other aspects of the game also. Most "new blood" we're getting are their primary target audience now of people checking game out, buying some costumes and crates and off to go until next story dlc or expansion, if they ever return when other good games keep releasing.

On companions, that's also the point we're "complaining" here about - there's no use for them with such a difficulty we have currently available. It's a human replacer in group content so it's not used and in solo play you already struggling to prolong fights to see some animations kick in. I'd love to have a use for them (outside of trading gear) but currently they're just a dust collector.

As for single player I'd better play single player games for the experience. Eso lacks exploration and danger elements, encounters are... Let's just say underwhelming. While game like Skyrim would have bandit or necromancer tiers and with just a mod or two they would become even more different and exciting to met while ESO have a critter tier, wolf, bandit, some sub-boss and boss ones with all the same downtimes between mechanics and auto-attacks they throw at you, zero individuality or perks. Thieving is the same deal, 3 randomised loots with flavour text - stab. It's fun on occasion or for some time but a pale shadow of elder scrolls here.

I'm not trying to say that eso is worse in any regard, just that it's a very different game with very different players in the same one place together, with their own preferences and likes. While there's some core principles like guilds related trading, separate pvp zone, no separate balancing for pve and pvp, classes, eso's specific combat, mmo elements etc. some things could be easily compromised if they're giving players options to enjoy already existing content more or at all. Giving players seeking a challenging more options is precisely that compromise and not something that would hurt the game in any way (performance? Idk, that's for engineering team to decide).

Lysette

I guess, ZOS would do a difficulty slider thingy, if people would not expect better rewards with it as well. This s the real problem, they do not just want more challenge, they want as well better rewards - just let go on better rewards, and ZOS might give you more challenge. But I guess, then those saying they want more challenge will refrain from actually getting it.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lysette wrote: »

I guess, ZOS would do a difficulty slider thingy, if people would not expect better rewards with it as well. This s the real problem, they do not just want more challenge, they want as well better rewards - just let go on better rewards, and ZOS might give you more challenge. But I guess, then those saying they want more challenge will refrain from actually getting it.

Despite sounding awfully like a strawman, what would the actual problem of granting a higher rarity (blue instead of green etc.) be? At best I potentially could see an issue if they would lock specific items behind vet OL (like they do in vet group content).

colossalvoids

Lysette wrote: »

I guess, ZOS would do a difficulty slider thingy, if people would not expect better rewards with it as well. This s the real problem, they do not just want more challenge, they want as well better rewards - just let go on better rewards, and ZOS might give you more challenge. But I guess, then those saying they want more challenge will refrain from actually getting it.

The problem is that zenimax itself knows that the more the challenge - the better rewards are as in any other game really. They probably don't want to spend time on something players can "achieve themselves" in their opinion, kinda "just unequip gear!" deal (loosing all progression isn't fun, it won't address "mob stupidity" either) plus they don't want to bring new rewards tiers that are kinda mandatory for any difficulty increase. It's not really about people trying to get better rewards and be all, it's more about that there mechanically should be rewards cause it's how games like this are working and if that's something they don't want to do it's easier to scrap entire idea of another difficulty all along.

That's kinda same with current endgame rewards versus it's crates counterparts and CS in general, people aren't just insanely entitled to get "best" stuff through their routine of hardmodes, it's more in line with motivation for the push itself (currently it's just playing with people you like and pure encounter/competitiveness satisfaction), motivation for newer players cause "shinies" and how store affects satisfaction of getting something from "the very top" when there's almost same thing available for cash or given away for free.

Lysette

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I guess, ZOS would do a difficulty slider thingy, if people would not expect better rewards with it as well. This s the real problem, they do not just want more challenge, they want as well better rewards - just let go on better rewards, and ZOS might give you more challenge. But I guess, then those saying they want more challenge will refrain from actually getting it.

The problem is that zenimax itself knows that the more the challenge - the better rewards are as in any other game really. They probably don't want to spend time on something players can "achieve themselves" in their opinion, kinda "just unequip gear!" deal (loosing all progression isn't fun, it won't address "mob stupidity" either) plus they don't want to bring new rewards tiers that are kinda mandatory for any difficulty increase. It's not really about people trying to get better rewards and be all, it's more about that there mechanically should be rewards cause it's how games like this are working and if that's something they don't want to do it's easier to scrap entire idea of another difficulty all along.

That's kinda same with current endgame rewards versus it's crates counterparts and CS in general, people aren't just insanely entitled to get "best" stuff through their routine of hardmodes, it's more in line with motivation for the push itself (currently it's just playing with people you like and pure encounter/competitiveness satisfaction), motivation for newer players cause "shinies" and how store affects satisfaction of getting something from "the very top" when there's almost same thing available for cash or given away for free.

[snip] as soon as more challenge with same rewards is mentioned, the true nature of this request is showing off - you want better rewards, not more challenge really [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

colossalvoids

Lysette wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I guess, ZOS would do a difficulty slider thingy, if people would not expect better rewards with it as well. This s the real problem, they do not just want more challenge, they want as well better rewards - just let go on better rewards, and ZOS might give you more challenge. But I guess, then those saying they want more challenge will refrain from actually getting it.

The problem is that zenimax itself knows that the more the challenge - the better rewards are as in any other game really. They probably don't want to spend time on something players can "achieve themselves" in their opinion, kinda "just unequip gear!" deal (loosing all progression isn't fun, it won't address "mob stupidity" either) plus they don't want to bring new rewards tiers that are kinda mandatory for any difficulty increase. It's not really about people trying to get better rewards and be all, it's more about that there mechanically should be rewards cause it's how games like this are working and if that's something they don't want to do it's easier to scrap entire idea of another difficulty all along.

That's kinda same with current endgame rewards versus it's crates counterparts and CS in general, people aren't just insanely entitled to get "best" stuff through their routine of hardmodes, it's more in line with motivation for the push itself (currently it's just playing with people you like and pure encounter/competitiveness satisfaction), motivation for newer players cause "shinies" and how store affects satisfaction of getting something from "the very top" when there's almost same thing available for cash or given away for free.

[snip] as soon as more challenge with same rewards is mentioned, the true nature of this request is showing off - you want better rewards, not more challenge really [snip]

[snip] that there's rewards tied to content always, no matter if we want anything or not. We can't change that even if it means not getting something content wise, as it's not in our power nor competence. A lot of people myself included stated that we can't care less for overland rewards but that isn't working like that for zenimax nor any other company I can think of. I remember Rich also instantly started mention rewards in his discussion because it's natural for the game, they would need something new to make a difference and market it somehow to other players that might currently not be interested in new overland.

[Edited for Baiting]

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

I remember Rich also instantly started mention rewards in his discussion because it's natural for the game, they would need something new to make a difference and market it somehow to other players that might currently not be interested in new overland.

Here's what he said.

There is a ton of work, and then as lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you're not going to get anything out of it why do it, you know? The satisfaction is there sure, but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.So like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3 of the game was never played by players, so we changed it.

And honestly he's not wrong here. You want the vet content to give something over and beyond the normal. But it also cannot be the typical vet rewards because these quests are not repeatable. So what incentives do you give?

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place. But honestly if next story DLC's had a "veteran side" instance instead of all this "Harrowstorms" and "roaming world bosses" this would bring a lot more satisfaction overall as those "endgame" zone activities aren't what people are generally looking for as we see and are relevant until people got their achievements or end of seasonal event. Might be different situation on some platforms, idk.

Anyway we have zero idea if ever or how zos would solve the issues some of us are having which were explained numerous times here and there. They've had community driven ideas before, but I believe all of them were changed to the point it had zero connection to what was asked in the first place so I don't see a value in researching ways of incentivisation someone into some non yet existing content which may take any form possible or none at all which is more possible. But voicing our thoughts have way more significant value, there's a saying in my native language - "water sharpens the stone". So it's better be flowing as " the stone " might actually change with time.

Just a possibility for some action but better than a radio silence in a sense.

Parasaurolophus

@Lysette I do not agree with you. Even Rich said that if he had the opportunity to change something from the very beginning of the development of the game, he would like to make eso more like elder scrolls, not mmo. Look at Fallout76, it's a real Fallout with friends. Eso is not Skyrim with friends, this is mmo. It carries a completely different experience than the games in the TES series. I wrote about this earlier in my big post:

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

First, thanks to @ZOS_Kevin for officially providing us with this thread where we can share the feedback. But I would like to remind the players that this is precisely the feedback thread, where we just speak in detail about our impressions, and do not argue with each other. Past threads were closed because players were actively arguing with each other. I would not want this to happen again. Especially in the official feedback thread. Thanks!
I see how much has been said on this topic on both sides. But I really have something to say. I'll just try to be original and share a few of my thoughts that I haven't seen in this thread.

This game is not like the classic The Elder Scrolls series game. When ESO realise, it received a lot of unfair critic. One of the points of such unfair critics was that this is not Skyrim online. However, the further Skyrim went into history, the better the public looked at ESO. However, ZoS touts ESO as a classic in the series that will give us that Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim experience. Although it makes no sense to explain for a long time why you should not compare an online project with a solo game, I still say that exploration, questing, storytelling, looting, combat, leveling in any classic RPG work together, creating a deep immersion experience for the players. But in ESO, each gameplay element exists separately:

- There is no exploration in ESO. Remember how you accidentally discovered caves or ancestral tombs, where we could find something interesting, such as a unique item or quest. How dragon claws were found from an unknown nordic tomb. ESO has simple POI compliments and nothing more.

- No looting. We are not happy with a new sword found in a chest or 10 gold coins dropped from a robber. ESO has a farming.

- And questing is more like a visual novel than an RPG questing.

But this is an MMO, right? No one expects that mmo will give us the same experience as a classic RPG. But the problem is that this game is not similar to either the classic RPG or the classic MMO. As many have already said that questing is like a visual novel, where we run from marker to marker, just to continue the story. It’s even more like reading comics for me, because I don’t feel like I’m involved in the story at all.
In an interview, Rich Lambert was asked what would he change in the game in the very early stages of development? And he replied that he would try to make this game more like the Elder Scrolls than an MMO. And looking at Fallout76, I understand why. Fallot76 looks like Betheda`s Fallout, plays like Bethesda`s Fallout, feels like Betheda`s Fallout, smells like Betheda`s Fallout. ESO feels, looks and plays like an MMO. It's not bad for itself. But i also expect something different from the game, which is mmo.

Who are casual players really? No, these are not the players who play only questing and housing, and are afraid of any challenge. No. These are the players involved in the game as well as the powerplayers. And I love them, really! But Rich once said that the average play time for the average ESO player is only six weeks. I would be surprised, but I often hear game analysts say that only a small part of players, who buying games, complete them to the end. And it is true. Open Steam, open any popular and hyped game of the last years, and look at the percentage of players who received achievements for completing the game? What percentage of players also received other different achievements besides the achievements for completing the first stages of the game? Usually the value does not exceed 15-20%. I don't know for sure, but it seems like on consoles there is an opportunity to see what percentage of players received certain achievements. I remember how this information just surprised me at first. I thought how could this be true? Buy a game and do almost nothing there? How? But I was convinced of this later.
Now, let's forget about the difficulty of mobs for a while, okay? Let's imagine that this is not the main topic, then:

- If the main problem for Craglorn was the difficulty of mobs and bosses, then why did ZoS abandon the concept of Adventure Zones entirely? After all, ZoS could continue to develop locations with a lot of content, many different activities, several mini dungeons like the Shada`s Tear or Skyrich?

- If overland content is for storytelling, then why did ZoS abandon the concept of long lines of side quests? Remember of the quests in Morrowind about Sun-in-Shadows or Veya Releth. These are beautiful long stories that remain in the memory. But why did ZoS give up on this? Why ZoS returned to the concept of a large number of short quests? Why isn't this already in Clockwork? Did the players hate these quests? It seems not, I have only met good reviews.

As you can see, the reason is far from being difficult. The vast majority of players have never completed most of the content. And not because it is difficult. It's just that the "life cycle" of such a player is very short. Such a player will buy a game or dlc, play a little, maybe pay some extra money, and then leave. And maybe, maybe it will return to q4 dlc. Yes, the concept of "year story", which has been criticized a lot lately, is based on this. That is why we do not get satisfaction by completing the main quest in the chapter, when we are shown how the bigboss simply leaves us. And then we have to wait for him for another six months. Aslo, this is not a problem for me. I'm fine with a year-long story. I think the problem is with the quality of the writing, not the concept. But that's a different topic.
Also, in 2016, it seems Matt Firor said in an interview that the biggest peaks in population occur with the release of new dlc, mainly due to returning players. There is also every reason to believe that it is for this purpose that events are held too often in the game. I also think that the delayed release of new motives in each new chapter and dlc is an attempt to keep the population in new content.
And ZoS just optimized the development. Why create a content-rich overland if most of the players just never see it? Of course, by reducing the amount of content per location and making it trivial, ZoS increased the completion rate. But it only hurt the content. So it turns out that overland is content for players who play very little and are not involved. Quests are not just trivial. They are short. 20 minutes each. I completed the entire Blackwood area in four evenings. I have already completed all the side quests in Deadlands in one evening. But I'm a big fan of TES and I carefully read every dialogue, every note and book I find. I'm not saying we need more quests. No. It's just that after I complete all the quests, the location becomes useless to me. Literally tomorrow, maybe the day after tomorrow, I will complete Deadlands and never return there. Daily quests? Zerging bosses and running around delves is hardly fun. I'd rather buy the motives later. I only get achievements when I get bored.
So I think the problem of overland is far from just only difficulty. ZoS as a whole approaches overland creation too sparingly and it is felt after two or three completed locations. I am not going to judge whether ZoS could really create content that could keep different types of players for months, or whether this approach to attracting fickle casual players is just a necessary measure. I do not know.

Times before One Tamriel. One of the biggest things that surprises me about these threads is that some players say there was once a veteran overland in the game. Even Rich Lambert said that. And this is ... very ... strange. I have been playing since November 2014 and I remember those times very well. And I say that there has never been a real difficult overland in eso. It does not matter at all what level you have, 10lvl or 10 vet. rank, all mobs on your level/rank have always had the same difficulty. You just had to meet the level requirement, but no more. Therefore, the statement that eso became more popular because the difficulty was nerfed is highly doubtful. One Tamriel did a lot of the right things, it really is. But there was never a difficult overland in the game, there was just compulsory leveling. Why was the vanilla eso a failure? Well, this is a separate topic, but there are a lot of reasons. For me personally, this game was saved by the release of veteran dungeons and new, better quality dlc. Only Craglorn was truly a veteran zone. I won't say why the players didn't like Craglorn then, other players have talked about it a lot earlier. But yeah, having to group up for quests annoyed me too. I would like to say about Imperial City. There are many examples where the pvp / pve concept is perfectly implemented. However, due to some bad design decisions, IC is dead. So is Craglorn. There are many mmo where there is an interesting overland and where difficulties work well. For what reason this just cannot exist in eso, I do not understand.

Look at the concept of the Adventure Zone again. For me personally, this is the most ideal option. Although, I will be glad to any movement towards to more difficult overland content. I think that the best solution would be to release new locations, with the option to switch modes like in dung/trials. Fewer mobs, but more dangerous. Remove delves. Make four or five dungeons like Shada's Tear or Skyreach with daily quests. We need more different activities. And the main thing, of course, is a switch so that players who only want to go through quests could do it calmly. But even such players would have more to do in this type of overland.
Do two or three side questlines, like in Vvardenfell, 3-4 quests each. Instead of two dozen short quests, which are then hard to remember.

Rewards? I don't see anything wrong with expecting a balance between effort and reward in video games. We already have monster helmets, perfect sets, SS and RG mounts, guaranteed motif drops. It can even be just achievements. But suppose it could be some special sets. Or, for example, cosmetic rewards that would be collected from 100 shards. In veteran mode, more shards would simply be dropped. In general, I do not think that this is a desperate situation and that no balance can be found here.

But this is my personal opinion. Anyway, I will support any other solution for a more amusing overland.

A few more thoughts:

- All players who love TES want to play overland. We want to return to these beautiful locations, do tasks and walk there. But we do not want this pastime to feel like something useless and trivial.

- Yes, quests really only complete once. But the fact that they are completed by the players does not mean that it was a pleasant experience for them. We want questing to be a fun experience for us.

- Challenging combat isn't the only way to make overland and questing more fun.

- Plucking the Crow was a good experience for me. The boss had some pretty basic mechanics, but they made me move and heal. I was pleased.

- I'm waiting for fewer people in Deadlands to try to fight the walking bosses.

- I would not go back to old zones and replay old quests just because the mobs there have become more hardy. I think it's worth focusing on new content.

- Although the idea of giving players the opportunity to replay zones again seems very good to me.

- I liked the difficulty slider in Skyrim. At the highest difficulty, the mobs did not have a lot of hp. But they did a lot of damage. This made the fight not long, but risky and fun.

-Why are we doing more difficult content? Because we want to be distracted. To turn my attention away from problems into play. But we cannot do this because the process is so easy an lame that we do not need to concentrate and we cannot focus on the game. When I play eso overland or questing, I turn on YouTube, think about my life, because I cannot immerse myself in the game. Also, many people go to the gym to relax and unwind. Strange isn't it?

Thanks! I feel heard.

ESO today is more like a visual novel with high-end content.

SilverBride

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

ESO today is more like a visual novel with high-end content.

ESO today is more successful than its ever been. They must be doing something right.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

Parasaurolophus

SilverBride wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

ESO today is more like a visual novel with high-end content.

ESO today is more successful than its ever been. They must be doing something right.

Nevertheless, eso is not as popular as it could be in this field. Look at FF14, Genshin or NW. Eso from the best MMO 2016-2018, just disappeared somewhere. She also has a damn low rating on Twich. ESO just exists today. And the fact that the game somehow keeps afloat does not mean that everything is fine. As we can see, after 2020 the game began to lose a lot of players, especially the high-end.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

ESO today is more like a visual novel with high-end content.

ESO today is more successful than its ever been. They must be doing something right.

Nevertheless, eso is not as popular as it could be in this field. Look at FF14, Genshin or NW. Eso from the best MMO 2016-2018, just disappeared somewhere. She also has a damn low rating on Twich. ESO just exists today. And the fact that the game somehow keeps afloat does not mean that everything is fine. As we can see, after 2020 the game began to lose a lot of players, especially the high-end.

Most games lost players in 2021 (and gained them in 2020) due to the surge of players that only played because of Covid.

Lysette

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

@Lysette I do not agree with you. Even Rich said that if he had the opportunity to change something from the very beginning of the development of the game, he would like to make eso more like elder scrolls, not mmo. Look at Fallout76, it's a real Fallout with friends. Eso is not Skyrim with friends, this is mmo. It carries a completely different experience than the games in the TES series. I wrote about this earlier in my big post:

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

First, thanks to @ZOS_Kevin for officially providing us with this thread where we can share the feedback. But I would like to remind the players that this is precisely the feedback thread, where we just speak in detail about our impressions, and do not argue with each other. Past threads were closed because players were actively arguing with each other. I would not want this to happen again. Especially in the official feedback thread. Thanks!
I see how much has been said on this topic on both sides. But I really have something to say. I'll just try to be original and share a few of my thoughts that I haven't seen in this thread.

This game is not like the classic The Elder Scrolls series game. When ESO realise, it received a lot of unfair critic. One of the points of such unfair critics was that this is not Skyrim online. However, the further Skyrim went into history, the better the public looked at ESO. However, ZoS touts ESO as a classic in the series that will give us that Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim experience. Although it makes no sense to explain for a long time why you should not compare an online project with a solo game, I still say that exploration, questing, storytelling, looting, combat, leveling in any classic RPG work together, creating a deep immersion experience for the players. But in ESO, each gameplay element exists separately:

- There is no exploration in ESO. Remember how you accidentally discovered caves or ancestral tombs, where we could find something interesting, such as a unique item or quest. How dragon claws were found from an unknown nordic tomb. ESO has simple POI compliments and nothing more.

- No looting. We are not happy with a new sword found in a chest or 10 gold coins dropped from a robber. ESO has a farming.

- And questing is more like a visual novel than an RPG questing.

But this is an MMO, right? No one expects that mmo will give us the same experience as a classic RPG. But the problem is that this game is not similar to either the classic RPG or the classic MMO. As many have already said that questing is like a visual novel, where we run from marker to marker, just to continue the story. It’s even more like reading comics for me, because I don’t feel like I’m involved in the story at all.
In an interview, Rich Lambert was asked what would he change in the game in the very early stages of development? And he replied that he would try to make this game more like the Elder Scrolls than an MMO. And looking at Fallout76, I understand why. Fallot76 looks like Betheda`s Fallout, plays like Bethesda`s Fallout, feels like Betheda`s Fallout, smells like Betheda`s Fallout. ESO feels, looks and plays like an MMO. It's not bad for itself. But i also expect something different from the game, which is mmo.

Who are casual players really? No, these are not the players who play only questing and housing, and are afraid of any challenge. No. These are the players involved in the game as well as the powerplayers. And I love them, really! But Rich once said that the average play time for the average ESO player is only six weeks. I would be surprised, but I often hear game analysts say that only a small part of players, who buying games, complete them to the end. And it is true. Open Steam, open any popular and hyped game of the last years, and look at the percentage of players who received achievements for completing the game? What percentage of players also received other different achievements besides the achievements for completing the first stages of the game? Usually the value does not exceed 15-20%. I don't know for sure, but it seems like on consoles there is an opportunity to see what percentage of players received certain achievements. I remember how this information just surprised me at first. I thought how could this be true? Buy a game and do almost nothing there? How? But I was convinced of this later.
Now, let's forget about the difficulty of mobs for a while, okay? Let's imagine that this is not the main topic, then:

- If the main problem for Craglorn was the difficulty of mobs and bosses, then why did ZoS abandon the concept of Adventure Zones entirely? After all, ZoS could continue to develop locations with a lot of content, many different activities, several mini dungeons like the Shada`s Tear or Skyrich?

- If overland content is for storytelling, then why did ZoS abandon the concept of long lines of side quests? Remember of the quests in Morrowind about Sun-in-Shadows or Veya Releth. These are beautiful long stories that remain in the memory. But why did ZoS give up on this? Why ZoS returned to the concept of a large number of short quests? Why isn't this already in Clockwork? Did the players hate these quests? It seems not, I have only met good reviews.

As you can see, the reason is far from being difficult. The vast majority of players have never completed most of the content. And not because it is difficult. It's just that the "life cycle" of such a player is very short. Such a player will buy a game or dlc, play a little, maybe pay some extra money, and then leave. And maybe, maybe it will return to q4 dlc. Yes, the concept of "year story", which has been criticized a lot lately, is based on this. That is why we do not get satisfaction by completing the main quest in the chapter, when we are shown how the bigboss simply leaves us. And then we have to wait for him for another six months. Aslo, this is not a problem for me. I'm fine with a year-long story. I think the problem is with the quality of the writing, not the concept. But that's a different topic.
Also, in 2016, it seems Matt Firor said in an interview that the biggest peaks in population occur with the release of new dlc, mainly due to returning players. There is also every reason to believe that it is for this purpose that events are held too often in the game. I also think that the delayed release of new motives in each new chapter and dlc is an attempt to keep the population in new content.
And ZoS just optimized the development. Why create a content-rich overland if most of the players just never see it? Of course, by reducing the amount of content per location and making it trivial, ZoS increased the completion rate. But it only hurt the content. So it turns out that overland is content for players who play very little and are not involved. Quests are not just trivial. They are short. 20 minutes each. I completed the entire Blackwood area in four evenings. I have already completed all the side quests in Deadlands in one evening. But I'm a big fan of TES and I carefully read every dialogue, every note and book I find. I'm not saying we need more quests. No. It's just that after I complete all the quests, the location becomes useless to me. Literally tomorrow, maybe the day after tomorrow, I will complete Deadlands and never return there. Daily quests? Zerging bosses and running around delves is hardly fun. I'd rather buy the motives later. I only get achievements when I get bored.
So I think the problem of overland is far from just only difficulty. ZoS as a whole approaches overland creation too sparingly and it is felt after two or three completed locations. I am not going to judge whether ZoS could really create content that could keep different types of players for months, or whether this approach to attracting fickle casual players is just a necessary measure. I do not know.

Times before One Tamriel. One of the biggest things that surprises me about these threads is that some players say there was once a veteran overland in the game. Even Rich Lambert said that. And this is ... very ... strange. I have been playing since November 2014 and I remember those times very well. And I say that there has never been a real difficult overland in eso. It does not matter at all what level you have, 10lvl or 10 vet. rank, all mobs on your level/rank have always had the same difficulty. You just had to meet the level requirement, but no more. Therefore, the statement that eso became more popular because the difficulty was nerfed is highly doubtful. One Tamriel did a lot of the right things, it really is. But there was never a difficult overland in the game, there was just compulsory leveling. Why was the vanilla eso a failure? Well, this is a separate topic, but there are a lot of reasons. For me personally, this game was saved by the release of veteran dungeons and new, better quality dlc. Only Craglorn was truly a veteran zone. I won't say why the players didn't like Craglorn then, other players have talked about it a lot earlier. But yeah, having to group up for quests annoyed me too. I would like to say about Imperial City. There are many examples where the pvp / pve concept is perfectly implemented. However, due to some bad design decisions, IC is dead. So is Craglorn. There are many mmo where there is an interesting overland and where difficulties work well. For what reason this just cannot exist in eso, I do not understand.

Look at the concept of the Adventure Zone again. For me personally, this is the most ideal option. Although, I will be glad to any movement towards to more difficult overland content. I think that the best solution would be to release new locations, with the option to switch modes like in dung/trials. Fewer mobs, but more dangerous. Remove delves. Make four or five dungeons like Shada's Tear or Skyreach with daily quests. We need more different activities. And the main thing, of course, is a switch so that players who only want to go through quests could do it calmly. But even such players would have more to do in this type of overland.
Do two or three side questlines, like in Vvardenfell, 3-4 quests each. Instead of two dozen short quests, which are then hard to remember.

Rewards? I don't see anything wrong with expecting a balance between effort and reward in video games. We already have monster helmets, perfect sets, SS and RG mounts, guaranteed motif drops. It can even be just achievements. But suppose it could be some special sets. Or, for example, cosmetic rewards that would be collected from 100 shards. In veteran mode, more shards would simply be dropped. In general, I do not think that this is a desperate situation and that no balance can be found here.

But this is my personal opinion. Anyway, I will support any other solution for a more amusing overland.

A few more thoughts:

- All players who love TES want to play overland. We want to return to these beautiful locations, do tasks and walk there. But we do not want this pastime to feel like something useless and trivial.

- Yes, quests really only complete once. But the fact that they are completed by the players does not mean that it was a pleasant experience for them. We want questing to be a fun experience for us.

- Challenging combat isn't the only way to make overland and questing more fun.

- Plucking the Crow was a good experience for me. The boss had some pretty basic mechanics, but they made me move and heal. I was pleased.

- I'm waiting for fewer people in Deadlands to try to fight the walking bosses.

- I would not go back to old zones and replay old quests just because the mobs there have become more hardy. I think it's worth focusing on new content.

- Although the idea of giving players the opportunity to replay zones again seems very good to me.

- I liked the difficulty slider in Skyrim. At the highest difficulty, the mobs did not have a lot of hp. But they did a lot of damage. This made the fight not long, but risky and fun.

-Why are we doing more difficult content? Because we want to be distracted. To turn my attention away from problems into play. But we cannot do this because the process is so easy an lame that we do not need to concentrate and we cannot focus on the game. When I play eso overland or questing, I turn on YouTube, think about my life, because I cannot immerse myself in the game. Also, many people go to the gym to relax and unwind. Strange isn't it?

Thanks! I feel heard.

ESO today is more like a visual novel with high-end content.

I guess it depends on the play style how someone is experiencing ESO - to me it is not like an MMO - there are other players around, which provide the stuff, which I can buy on the player-driven market. But I play mainly when others are working or sleeping, so to me it is much like a single player game - at prime time this is different of course, because quest areas are deprived from enemies, because too many are questing at the same time - not so at those times, where I mainly play, there are still enough enemies around to feel like a single player game and even I see players rushing around or passing through, I can mainly ignore them and carry on with my solo play style - so yes, to me it feels like a continuation of TES - actually I see ESO now as "the elder scrolls" and am not very likely to even play TES6, when it will be out - I have what I want in ESO already.

Actually if it would feel like an MMO, I would most likely not play it - the appeal for me is that is a increasingly huge game with "endless" content (at my pace I will never be able to see or do it all). where I don't need others to be successful - but my pace is quite different - if my characters make in average 5 levels per year (after level 20), this is ok to me - so the game lasts for about 6 years for each character - I don't intend to ever get to champion content, the game ends for me at level 50 and getting there is likely the end of it for that character - to me the game is level 1 to 50 - all what comes after it is not the content, I want to do - I guess that is why it doesn't feel like an MMO to me.

My characters do not fit into the concept of DD, tank and healer - they are neither this nor that - they are adventurers, used to be on their own and on their own, they have to be quite different than a DD, tank or healer - they are a little of everything and good in nothing really - and that is how I like them to be - average or below average characters, who are just enjoying themselves - not being champions or elite. That is as well why there is no grind for my characters - they do what they want to do and everything else is just ignored by them. And this can be done perfectly in ESO, because it isn't challenging (in the level 1 to 50 range), there they are allowed to be just average or below average and still have fun - with a challenging game, I couldn't enjoy playing like this and would most likely be exposed to grind and stop playing.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

spartaxoxo

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

They would obviously not do "vet achievements" if there would be no way of repeating said quests on a new difficulty, same as there would be just exactly same achievements but now with ability to complete on any difficulty you prefer so if you already did everything you would literally gain no new ones. Can't imagine Zeni doing things differently and I'm unsure why anyone expects them to fail in the literally easiest part of such implementation. Just share normal and vet progress or include possibility of repeating stories. Pretty sure they would manage not to forget such a simple thing, not a rocket science at all.