Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

I forget where I saw or heard this but didn't they they were replacing the incursions with some new things? Is that just a rumor or...?

sans-culottes

SilverBride wrote: »

They have already been increasing the difficulty of world bosses and story bosses and have gone too far for many as is seen in the increasing number of complaints about it. I hope they scale these back (especially the story bosses) so players won't be locked out of completing the story.

To be fair, those complaints tend to be more about bad mechanics that artificially inflate difficulty (e.g., tedious invulnerability phases).

SilverBride

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They have already been increasing the difficulty of world bosses and story bosses and have gone too far for many as is seen in the increasing number of complaints about it. I hope they scale these back (especially the story bosses) so players won't be locked out of completing the story.

To be fair, those complaints tend to be more about bad mechanics that artificially inflate difficulty (e.g., tedious invulnerability phases).

I've seen complaints about both. All players should be able to complete the story, but many now can't.

spartaxoxo

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They have already been increasing the difficulty of world bosses and story bosses and have gone too far for many as is seen in the increasing number of complaints about it. I hope they scale these back (especially the story bosses) so players won't be locked out of completing the story.

To be fair, those complaints tend to be more about bad mechanics that artificially inflate difficulty (e.g., tedious invulnerability phases).

Yeah. Most of the complaints I have seen, few though they are, about things like difficulty activating synergies in time due to things like poor reflexes or bad internet. I don't think the difficulty is usually about the HP or incoming damage with the exception of a couple of fights.

Edit
Also, people not knowing how to do things like dodge roll, interrupt, bash, etc yet. So, for them it can be hard if a fight has something high damage they have to use basic gameplay mechanics to stop.

Here's an example
https://steamcommunity.com/app/306130/discussions/0/3821907717319254725/

spartaxoxo

Here's another one for where the trouble was the synergies, although in this case they were bugged making the fight harder than they were supposed the be

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/636034/spoiler-fight-is-pure-ridic/p1

SilverBride

Regardless of why, these bosses need to be scaled down so all players can complete the story.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Regardless of why, these bosses need to be scaled down so all players can complete the story.

I agree. One of the things they can do in terms of synergies to give people a little bit more time to activate them. Even better if it's part of a slider that let's people adjust difficulty up and down.

BasP

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I forget where I saw or heard this but didn't they they were replacing the incursions with some new things? Is that just a rumor or...?

All I know for sure is that we'll get a new encounter in locations where Dark Fissures appear in the base game (it's on the PTS). Judging by this video of someone doing that encounter, it doesn't appear to be difficult though.

From the PTS patch notes:

Reaper Strikes – New Worm Cult Themed Encounters
Strange new devices, known as Soul Reapers, have begun to surface across Tamriel, coinciding with the resurgence of the Worm Cult. Engage in these events to rescue their sacrifices and thwart the Worm Cult’s growing threat. Successfully completing Reaper Strikes will unlock the ability to purchase a unique furnishing from the Achievement Vendor and collect fragments to acquire a new Skill Style.

Keep an eye out for these Reaper Strikes in locations where Dark Fissures once appeared throughout the base game of Tamriel.

TaSheen

BasP wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I forget where I saw or heard this but didn't they they were replacing the incursions with some new things? Is that just a rumor or...?

All I know for sure is that we'll get a new encounter in locations where Dark Fissures appear in the base game (it's on the PTS). Judging by this video of someone doing that encounter, it doesn't appear to be difficult though.

From the PTS patch notes:

Reaper Strikes – New Worm Cult Themed Encounters
Strange new devices, known as Soul Reapers, have begun to surface across Tamriel, coinciding with the resurgence of the Worm Cult. Engage in these events to rescue their sacrifices and thwart the Worm Cult’s growing threat. Successfully completing Reaper Strikes will unlock the ability to purchase a unique furnishing from the Achievement Vendor and collect fragments to acquire a new Skill Style.

Keep an eye out for these Reaper Strikes in locations where Dark Fissures once appeared throughout the base game of Tamriel.

So that's what those are! Thanks for the info @BasP!

spartaxoxo

BasP wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I forget where I saw or heard this but didn't they they were replacing the incursions with some new things? Is that just a rumor or...?

All I know for sure is that we'll get a new encounter in locations where Dark Fissures appear in the base game (it's on the PTS). Judging by this video of someone doing that encounter, it doesn't appear to be difficult though.

From the PTS patch notes:

Reaper Strikes – New Worm Cult Themed Encounters
Strange new devices, known as Soul Reapers, have begun to surface across Tamriel, coinciding with the resurgence of the Worm Cult. Engage in these events to rescue their sacrifices and thwart the Worm Cult’s growing threat. Successfully completing Reaper Strikes will unlock the ability to purchase a unique furnishing from the Achievement Vendor and collect fragments to acquire a new Skill Style.

Keep an eye out for these Reaper Strikes in locations where Dark Fissures once appeared throughout the base game of Tamriel.

Thank you! I couldn't remember the name "dark fissure" so I couldn't find this information and it was driving me nuts! Just to confirm, dark fissures are those base game encounters where enemies appear with that "shoooom" sound and then it's like a vampire or something?

Muizer

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't want to play something separate from the existing stories. I want to enjoy the stories. While separate stuff did help spice things up a bit, they do nothing to address that core concern.

Ok, I know I'm not the most entertaining of writers, but I did actually go into that in my last paragraph

Muizer wrote: »

ZOS has already been working on this. The problem is they've been creating content that is separate from the existing overland experience. The obvious solution is to look for a ways to extend, rather than scale, existing encounters that are part of quests or quest zones.

They could, for instance, make more and harder NPC appear depending on your chosen difficulty. That approach gives combat designers close control over difficulty scaling. Something that no supposedly 'easy to implement' modifier will.

BasP

TaSheen wrote: »

So that's what those are! Thanks for the info @BasP!

You're welcome!

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thank you! I couldn't remember the name "dark fissure" so I couldn't find this information and it was driving me nuts! Are dark fissures are those base game encounters where enemies appear with that "shoooom" sound and then it's like a vampire or something?

Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure myself when I first read the patch notes, but I checked the UESP and those encounters are apparently called Dark Fissures.

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't want to play something separate from the existing stories. I want to enjoy the stories. While separate stuff did help spice things up a bit, they do nothing to address that core concern.

Ok, I know I'm not the most entertaining of writers, but I did actually go into that in my last paragraph

Muizer wrote: »

ZOS has already been working on this. The problem is they've been creating content that is separate from the existing overland experience. The obvious solution is to look for a ways to extend, rather than scale, existing encounters that are part of quests or quest zones.

They could, for instance, make more and harder NPC appear depending on your chosen difficulty. That approach gives combat designers close control over difficulty scaling. Something that no supposedly 'easy to implement' modifier will.

I read it. The problem with the "extend" it thing is it doesn't change the existing content. And that's what I want changed. I don't want some random add to show up and make Molag Bal look like some Banekin. I want Molag Bal to feel like a Daedric prince. I will not be satisfied with another separate solution and I don't think I am alone in that.

Scaling already works for other games, including another MMO. So I don't agree it couldn't work on this one.

spartaxoxo

BasP wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

So that's what those are! Thanks for the info @BasP!

You're welcome!

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thank you! I couldn't remember the name "dark fissure" so I couldn't find this information and it was driving me nuts! Are dark fissures are those base game encounters where enemies appear with that "shoooom" sound and then it's like a vampire or something?

Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure myself when I first read the patch notes, but I checked the UESP and those encounters are apparently called Dark Fissures.

Thanks! I even know where a couple of these spawn already. Although, I suppose everyone is fixing to know that now 😂. Fun fact: you could use these for the public dungeon/sweeper skull during the Witches Festivals.

They look pretty easy in that video though.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

I don't know if this has been mentioned about overland. I have just watched Jakeclips,s latest vid on the subject, about 21 hours old. It is quite short but reassuring. He says overland will not be overpowered but there will be insertions into the zones. These will be events of harder content, I think solo and group. Nothing will be forced on the player base but will be self imposed, though one point was a bit vague.

I don't know who Jakeclips is or how he knows, but that sounds like something I'd expect them to do. Especially since Bastion Nymics were introduced as one answer to overland difficulty.

I don't think they will ever just increase the difficulty of all overland mobs, but rather will just insert more difficult content into what is already there.

I will never, ever understand how anyone considers Bastion Nymic to be overland content. Sure, you hunt a few tough bosses for a minute but what you're doing immediately after that is an instanced dungeon in all but name. It's just not what I'm looking for, and if that's their intention going forward, or if the solution ends up being their new Craglorn-like zone, it's not going to be a satisfying solution.

People are asking for one or two very specific kinds of solution and if ZOS chooses to swerve left on this, I'm certain it will deflate a lot of the hope we have for the future of the game.

Mrtoobyy

For new players I understand that harder overland is not no.1 on their wishlist.

But for us veteran players, I started in Beta and had my main templar since 2014.
I BADLY want to quest with him again and feel threatened by the big bad villain, or even have to think twice about taking on a delve boss for that specific drop.
I have dominated Battlegrounds many times and consider myself a pretty good PVPer with the Templar class.
It feels as PVP is the only dynamic solo things left for me to do on my main.

And yes I have tried running the "naked build" on him and new toons and the overland is still WAY too easy. I don't see the incentive anymore for a veteran player do anything else than pvp. Wich means BG's cause Cyrodil is not playable

Muizer

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem with the "extend" it thing is it doesn't change the existing content.

That's simply not true. It won't change the existing mobs, but it would definitely change the existing encounters and that's what matters.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And that's what I want changed. I don't want some random add to show up and make Molag Bal look like some Banekin. I want Molag Bal to feel like a Daedric prince. I will not be satisfied with another separate solution and I don't think I am alone in that.

I can understand if you want those fights to be harder, but from a technical pov that's instanced content. It's not the same challenge as the 'open world' overland or public dungeons.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Scaling already works for other games, including another MMO. So I don't agree it couldn't work on this one.

LOTRO has been brought up, but for most of its difficulty increase it actually uses 'deus ex machina' like mechanics.

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The problem with the "extend" it thing is it doesn't change the existing content.

That's simply not true. It won't change the existing mobs, but it would definitely change the existing encounters and that's what matters.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And that's what I want changed. I don't want some random add to show up and make Molag Bal look like some Banekin. I want Molag Bal to feel like a Daedric prince. I will not be satisfied with another separate solution and I don't think I am alone in that.

Such story boss fights are technically instanced content though. I can understand if you want those fights to be harder, but it's just not the same challenge from a technical pov.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Scaling already works for other games, including another MMO. So I don't agree it couldn't work on this one.

LOTRO has been brought up, but for most of its difficulty increase it actually uses 'deus ex machina' like mechanics.

I think that what matters is that the current encounters actually match up with their lore. Adding new mobs doesn't change that core complaint. It adds a new element, it doesn't change what currently exists. A change to what currently exists is the request.

From a technical point of view, placing a debuff on yourself automatically changes all of your fights by the same percentage. The LOTRO developers actually described it as a cheat because of how effective it was versus the time spent developing a new vet server (their equivalent to a separate instance).

Here's what LOTRO does

When completing a Difficulty quest, the character will gain a Difficulty debuff. This debuff has the following effects on the character:

Decreases outgoing damage
Increases incoming damage
Increases XP and Virtue XP gain
Triggers additional effects on enemy targets
The higher the Difficulty selected, the more pronounced these effects will be.

There's no reason ESO couldn't do something similar.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know who Jakeclips is or how he knows, but that sounds like something I'd expect them to do. Especially since Bastion Nymics were introduced as one answer to overland difficulty.

I don't think they will ever just increase the difficulty of all overland mobs, but rather will just insert more difficult content into what is already there.

I will never, ever understand how anyone considers Bastion Nymic to be overland content.

With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that.

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know who Jakeclips is or how he knows, but that sounds like something I'd expect them to do. Especially since Bastion Nymics were introduced as one answer to overland difficulty.

I don't think they will ever just increase the difficulty of all overland mobs, but rather will just insert more difficult content into what is already there.

I will never, ever understand how anyone considers Bastion Nymic to be overland content.

With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that.

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

Frankly, that's exactly my point, and it's also the core of the problem we're dealing with. People have been screaming for overland changes for years and we've provided a range of possible solutions over and over, and yet ZOS repeatedly chooses to present alternatives which do not address the issues people are actually experiencing.

we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty

Awesome! That's really exciting! So what's going to be done about it?

and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that.

Instanced...for up to 4 players...

That is in no way overland content. That is exactly what a dungeon is. That is not an answer to the question, no matter how ZOS chooses to present it. In a vacuum, it's nice content, but it's not what we're asking for.

LootAllTheStuff

tohopka_eso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I'm hoping that whatever system they use as the test for overland difficulty will allow us to use it in West Weald. It's a shame that they didn't introduce it with Ithelia, would have made her absolutely epic.

She was already epic to me. I still had trouble taking her down, everything was getting to chaotic and Isobel died twice saving me.

Ithelia is an interesting example, as I recently completed that storyline for the second time. First was on a max level Nightblade, second on a level 20-ish Dragon Knight (although with the CP points from the earlier character). The first time was extremely chaotic, as you describe, and did actually die on my first time through because I missed one important aspect of the fight mechanics. Second time was a decent fight, but much more in control because I knew what to expect.

I think that's an important point to remember when it comes to assessing how difficult something is - familiarity makes a huge difference to performance, and that in turn colours our perception of difficulty.

Right now I'm working through Elsweyr for the first time, and I feel that it's sitting at about the right level for me personally simply because a lot of the base mechanics used in the various fights are now familiar enough that I know how to respond. I may not always execute perfectly, but I now usually know where I went wrong.

TaSheen

Well.... ZOS hasn't historically actually given anything the players have ever asked for as the players have asked for it - it's always been ZOS's idea of maybe sorta kinda what the players want.... and mostly pretty far off misses.

disky

TaSheen wrote: »

Well.... ZOS hasn't historically actually given anything the players have ever asked for as the players have asked for it - it's always been ZOS's idea of maybe sorta kinda what the players want.... and mostly pretty far off misses.

I'm aware, but the issue is that Bastion Nymics are so blatantly off the mark that it's kind of laughable. Bastion Nymics, with the small exception being the requirement to access them, are literally just dungeons. They have nothing to do with overland in any way. They are explicitly not overland content.

It's understandable for developers to find their own solutions, but something like BN is borderline offensive in how it ignores what people have asked for and have provided constructive feedback about for years.

SilverBride

I am sure by now ZoS is well aware of what players are asking for. But they may not be able to provide it in the way some want.

It seems they are injecting more difficult content into overland without completely changing overland and the story as a whole. I for one am very pleased if this is their solution because it won't affect anyone that loves overland as it is now negatively.

I would also be fine with a toggle or debuff but that doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

Avoriaa

TaSheen wrote: »

Well.... ZOS hasn't historically actually given anything the players have ever asked for as the players have asked for it - it's always been ZOS's idea of maybe sorta kinda what the players want.... and mostly pretty far off misses.

I mean they have a weird policy of not being able to take play ideas. I'm not sure if that's a thing with other games, but it does concern me because they seem to go out of their way to avoid out ideas (to follow that guideline?). If that's the case than isn't it possible that by suggesting things, we're actually removing them as a possibility? I don't see why they can't just use our ideas, I mean Blizzard has their policy where they literally own anything we make on their games.

disky

Avoriaa wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Well.... ZOS hasn't historically actually given anything the players have ever asked for as the players have asked for it - it's always been ZOS's idea of maybe sorta kinda what the players want.... and mostly pretty far off misses.

I mean they have a weird policy of not being able to take play ideas. I'm not sure if that's a thing with other games, but it does concern me because they seem to go out of their way to avoid out ideas (to follow that guideline?). If that's the case than isn't it possible that by suggesting things, we're actually removing them as a possibility? I don't see why they can't just use our ideas, I mean Blizzard has their policy where they literally own anything we make on their games.

If that were the case then they would probably be forbidding constructive feedback because it would paint them into an extremely narrow corner. You couldn't operate a forum like that. Do you happen to have anything to back up that claim?

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

I am sure by now ZoS is well aware of what players are asking for. But they may not be able to provide it in the way some want.

It seems they are injecting more difficult content into overland without completely changing overland and the story as a whole. I for one am very pleased if this is their solution because it won't affect anyone that loves overland as it is now negatively.

I would also be fine with a toggle or debuff but that doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

I'm not surprised that you're pleased because it doesn't address the issue in a way which affects you, but it also doesn't address the issue in any kind of sensible or satisfying way for the thousands of people who have lamented it for years, some of whom have left the game because of it.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am sure by now ZoS is well aware of what players are asking for. But they may not be able to provide it in the way some want.

It seems they are injecting more difficult content into overland without completely changing overland and the story as a whole. I for one am very pleased if this is their solution because it won't affect anyone that loves overland as it is now negatively.

I would also be fine with a toggle or debuff but that doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

I'm not surprised that you're pleased because it doesn't address the issue in a way which affects you, but it also doesn't address the issue in any kind of sensible or satisfying way for the thousands of people who have lamented it for years, some of whom have left the game because of it.

And when everyone heard about increased general overland difficulty, which would negatively affect those that do not want an increase in difficulty, there were many posting how pleased they were with that.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am sure by now ZoS is well aware of what players are asking for. But they may not be able to provide it in the way some want.

It seems they are injecting more difficult content into overland without completely changing overland and the story as a whole. I for one am very pleased if this is their solution because it won't affect anyone that loves overland as it is now negatively.

I would also be fine with a toggle or debuff but that doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

I'm not surprised that you're pleased because it doesn't address the issue in a way which affects you, but it also doesn't address the issue in any kind of sensible or satisfying way for the thousands of people who have lamented it for years, some of whom have left the game because of it.

And when everyone heard about increased general overland difficulty there were many posting how happy they were with that, even though it would negatively affect the many players that do not want a general difficulty increase.

And that's not great either. I really wish more people would understand that there are solutions which can work for everyone, and that those solutions are as good for them as if they were something they wanted for themself. In an MMO, excluding other players from the game lowers the population of the game, and that is bad for everyone.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am sure by now ZoS is well aware of what players are asking for. But they may not be able to provide it in the way some want.

It seems they are injecting more difficult content into overland without completely changing overland and the story as a whole. I for one am very pleased if this is their solution because it won't affect anyone that loves overland as it is now negatively.

I would also be fine with a toggle or debuff but that doesn't seem to be the direction they are taking.

I'm not surprised that you're pleased because it doesn't address the issue in a way which affects you, but it also doesn't address the issue in any kind of sensible or satisfying way for the thousands of people who have lamented it for years, some of whom have left the game because of it.

And when everyone heard about increased general overland difficulty there were many posting how happy they were with that, even though it would negatively affect the many players that do not want a general difficulty increase.

And that's not great either. I really wish more people would understand that there are solutions which can work for everyone, and that those solutions are as good for them as if they were something they wanted for themself. In an MMO, excluding other players from the game lowers the population of the game, and that is bad for everyone.

I think we as players do understand that solutions that work for everyone would be ideal. But realistically that may not be possible.

I think they are really trying to give more overland difficulty options to those asking for it, but also not letting it completely ruin overland for those that don't want it.

What may seem like a simple solution for us may not be.

But we still don't know exactly how this is going to be done yet, since it's "experimental".