ZOS ; Dark convergence + Deathmatch only BGS = legit the WORST ever meta since game release.

Danse_Mayhem

Oh yeah, its another one of those threads about these things, sit back and enjoy another rant lol

Day 1 player here whos been through all of the horrific metas such as Viper / velidreth one shots, crit proc sets, sorcs with 30 second shields, wrecking blow being a thing, bash stamcro's, zergs of bombblades etc etc and I can honestly say that this is by far the very worst by a long shot.

Deathmatch only
- Literally no one asked for it. The reason was over players treating all modes like a deathmatch? Let them. The teams that do that usually lose and it retains the variation. Im honestly still at a loss for why removing all other modes would do anything but kill interest in BGs, and fast.
- Flag and land grab games split the teams up to other areas of the arena, making all fights varied as different people would go to different objectives which kept it mixed up. Deathmatch only just sees all teams stack in the middle being pinballed around by Dark Convergence and essentially the team with the most DC sets + healers will always win (See screenshot)
- It has killed the fast pace of Battlegrounds (again, screenshot) because now all teams know they are getting deathmatch when they que in, so all teams just take 1 or 2 healers and build tanky. With the previous and varied playlist, any game mode was possible which meant this line up wasnt optimal, and stopped that forward preparation to an extend, keeping it chaotic and unexpected.
- Its 100% stale, already, after just one week. The variety of players I have personally seen in BGs has plummeted big time. Sure we can all agree that it was nice to see a deathmatch after a bunch of capture the relic games but deathmatch all of the time is just boring.

Dark convergence
- I know many people saw the 3 new proc sets (DC, Hrothgars chill, and plaguebreak) as game breaking, but Dark convergence is just on another level to the other 2. Now that Hrothgars has been nerfed, and also fixed (I think) its fast becoming another irrelevant proc set which doesnt alter balance. Plaguebreak is situational - pretty much only good vs a zerg and not Xv1,which I think most can agree is fine. Dark convergence on the other hand is actually Better as part of a zerg. I see the proposed nerf to it with the damage and honestly say that you could straight up remove the damage altogether and it would still be game breaking in more than a few ways ;
- The concept of damage scaling like proximity detonation for more people inside is cool, but the ridiculous pull in just eliminates all need for any positioning, aiming, skill in general with (almost) no drawback. Players can just blindfold themselves and throw an AOE into a zerg and que that Simpsons meme of Martin "Im helping" as they CC a whole crowd of people with the group pull. Again, even without the damage at all, pvp has just turned into a battle of the pinball where the second anyone is out of CC immunity, they get snatched into another DC proc because they are actually everywhere.
- The drawback of this set ; It offers only a 1 second stun (Thank god, right?) No, its actually a terrible thing because it means players dont have to CC break when they are pulled in, they just step / roll to the side without needing to break free, with a free CC immunity to carry on fighting... But wait, if thats such a drawback then what is the rant for?? It means that no one dies because no stun combos are possible when everyone on both sides are immune to CC from constantly being pulled into DC from all angles, resulting in a huge stalemate game of pinball. Sure this changes when a ball group coordinates ultimates into one spot - This woks very well for my guild with a bunch of colossus etc following the DC proc, but did we really need to buff ball groups? For the most part its just seen most of cyro / the BG arena covered in DC procs all over the place.
- Get pulled > dodgeroll > heal up > reapply buffs > drop own DC > get pulled > repeat is basically the flow of most fights in cyro and BGs now.

The screenshot
This game I was using DC on a magcro with Sithis, Domi, New moon front, and potentates back bar. For the survivability and the DC cheese - its pretty much the perfect build right now, with my healer friend in there too. We won the game because we simply 'did it better' but all teams had the exact same strategy. Stack the middle, drop ults on dark convergence and hope for the best. barely anything was single target or player focussed here, it was like grinding skyreach and just throwing AOEs down until eventually getting a kill. This is what BGs have become now - A tanky dark convergence filled clash where all 12 players stack the middle and take turns pinballing each other around with this stupid set until someone doesnt move out of the middle of one of the procs fast enough (presumably because they fell asleep) and someone gets a kill. It was a whole 5 minutes into this BG before any team got a kill and as you can see, the game timed out before anyone won by points. Since the release of BGs I have never seen this happen in deathmatch until this change + set, and now its almost every game.

Final thoughts / solution
Bring back other modes ASAP before you lose player interest. Personally I love open world cyro and PVE so I wont be going anywhere but many are just boycotting BGs and ESO in general until other modes are back.
Dark convergence - I honestly got nothing. I theory craft this game to death, run the Facebook builds page and have always taken time to offer solutions to broken metas, but Dark Convergence, a set that can CC pull in a whole crowd with no aiming or placement skill at all was just such a terrible idea that I have no suggestions on how to fix. Aiming ultimates as part of a group at any size always took at least some coordination, now it just revolves around one of many DC procs that does it all for you. Removing the second pull and a chunk of the damage with the proposed nerf will maaaaaybe see slightly less people using it that cant just get a free one shot on that second pull, but its the pinball CC that is the real issue and unless there is some added effect where a player can only be affected by DC every X amount of seconds even after CC immunity ends, then this issue isnt going away any time soon. This set needs to be reworked completely, not nerfed.

Please ZOS - Your PTS players told you about this way before it went live. They told you Hrothgars was busted and you still sent that mess live. Just look at the streams / Youtube videos of pvp now and the fact that barely anyone is enjoying it. The below screenshot should not be how a BG ends at all.

Rant over,
Yours sincerely, someone who loves ESO but not this ridiculous meta




,

NoxiousBlight

Dark convergence is getting toned down on the PTS. Should be a bit more niche after the next patch. I think DC is a much larger problem in Cryo where it can pull you off keeps than it is in BGs.

And I disagree about the DM only queue being bad. I have really been enjoying it. Even if it is only temporary. People are adapting to it and the fights have been really good.

It is far from stale - in fact it is driving me to play many, many more BGs than I normally would because I don’t have to worry about the annoyance of Capture the Relic.

Thinking about queue health, I keep thinking of alternative solutions. Plenty want a DM only queue, others don’t. I previously suggesting have veto power over one game mode - for example I would veto CTR so I never end up in that un-fun game again. Others can veto DM if they only like objective games.

Perhaps after you compete one random BG, you get a token (I’m thinking of “offerings” from Dead by Daylight if you are familiar with that) where you can choose the next BG you land in. So no matter what I at least know every other game is a DM for me. Maybe that would help keep the queue heathy.

Who knows though. My BGs are popping much quicker in the last week, so my gut feeling is a lot more people are playing the DM only queue than when the objective games were mixed in.

Jackey

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Oh yeah, its another one of those threads about these things, sit back and enjoy another rant lol

There can never be enough rants about Dark Convergence

I agree with you, I'm a regular BG player who stopped playing it because of Dark Convergence and DM only.
I would personally like BGs to become no proc but I know many don't want that.
So at least they should disable zerg busting sets in there. Those are clearly not intended for BGs so why allow them in there in the first place?

renne

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Deathmatch only
- Literally no one asked for it. The reason was over players treating all modes like a deathmatch? Let them. The teams that do that usually lose and it retains the variation. Im honestly still at a loss for why removing all other modes would do anything but kill interest in BGs, and fast.

It's a test. They've said repeatedly it's a test. It's just a test, it doesn't matter if anyone asked for it, they're running tests to see how to make BGs good for everyone.

It is a test. There's even an entire thread pinned to this section of the forums about how it's a test. If they get data that it's killed interest in BGs then they have that data. From this test.

StarOfElyon

I prefer death match because it's the best place to get fights (IC isn't bad but Cyrodil is obnoxious with all the wasted potential RP space and the constant horseback riding only to get zerged down). But I agree with the following:

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Dark convergence
- I know many people saw the 3 new proc sets (DC, Hrothgars chill, and plaguebreak) as game breaking, but Dark convergence is just on another level to the other 2. Now that Hrothgars has been nerfed, and also fixed (I think) its fast becoming another irrelevant proc set which doesnt alter balance. Plaguebreak is situational - pretty much only good vs a zerg and not Xv1,which I think most can agree is fine. Dark convergence on the other hand is actually Better as part of a zerg. I see the proposed nerf to it with the damage and honestly say that you could straight up remove the damage altogether and it would still be game breaking in more than a few ways ;
- The concept of damage scaling like proximity detonation for more people inside is cool, but the ridiculous pull in just eliminates all need for any positioning, aiming, skill in general with (almost) no drawback. Players can just blindfold themselves and throw an AOE into a zerg and que that Simpsons meme of Martin "Im helping" as they CC a whole crowd of people with the group pull. Again, even without the damage at all, pvp has just turned into a battle of the pinball where the second anyone is out of CC immunity, they get snatched into another DC proc because they are actually everywhere.
- The drawback of this set ; It offers only a 1 second stun (Thank god, right?) No, its actually a terrible thing because it means players dont have to CC break when they are pulled in, they just step / roll to the side without needing to break free, with a free CC immunity to carry on fighting... But wait, if thats such a drawback then what is the rant for?? It means that no one dies because no stun combos are possible when everyone on both sides are immune to CC from constantly being pulled into DC from all angles, resulting in a huge stalemate game of pinball. Sure this changes when a ball group coordinates ultimates into one spot - This woks very well for my guild with a bunch of colossus etc following the DC proc, but did we really need to buff ball groups? For the most part its just seen most of cyro / the BG arena covered in DC procs all over the place.
- Get pulled > dodgeroll > heal up > reapply buffs > drop own DC > get pulled > repeat is basically the flow of most fights in cyro and BGs now.

The screenshot
This game I was using DC on a magcro with Sithis, Domi, New moon front, and potentates back bar. For the survivability and the DC cheese - its pretty much the perfect build right now, with my healer friend in there too. We won the game because we simply 'did it better' but all teams had the exact same strategy. Stack the middle, drop ults on dark convergence and hope for the best. barely anything was single target or player focussed here, it was like grinding skyreach and just throwing AOEs down until eventually getting a kill. This is what BGs have become now - A tanky dark convergence filled clash where all 12 players stack the middle and take turns pinballing each other around with this stupid set until someone doesnt move out of the middle of one of the procs fast enough (presumably because they fell asleep) and someone gets a kill. It was a whole 5 minutes into this BG before any team got a kill and as you can see, the game timed out before anyone won by points. Since the release of BGs I have never seen this happen in deathmatch until this change + set, and now its almost every game.

Final thoughts / solution
...


Dark convergence - I honestly got nothing. I theory craft this game to death, run the Facebook builds page and have always taken time to offer solutions to broken metas, but Dark Convergence, a set that can CC pull in a whole crowd with no aiming or placement skill at all was just such a terrible idea that I have no suggestions on how to fix. Aiming ultimates as part of a group at any size always took at least some coordination, now it just revolves around one of many DC procs that does it all for you. Removing the second pull and a chunk of the damage with the proposed nerf will maaaaaybe see slightly less people using it that cant just get a free one shot on that second pull, but its the pinball CC that is the real issue and unless there is some added effect where a player can only be affected by DC every X amount of seconds even after CC immunity ends, then this issue isnt going away any time soon. This set needs to be reworked completely, not nerfed.

Please ZOS - Your PTS players told you about this way before it went live. They told you Hrothgars was busted and you still sent that mess live. Just look at the streams / Youtube videos of pvp now and the fact that barely anyone is enjoying it. The below screenshot should not be how a BG ends at all.

Rant over,
Yours sincerely, someone who loves ESO but not this ridiculous meta




,

I hate that set so much I refuse to play with anyone using it. The strategy you described above is the way I observed and also said it was being used. It's game breaking. I would be fine with it if it was an ultimate but it's a freaking proc set - that's insane! Even after the adjustments, a proc that pulls players in an AOE should not exist. I repeat, it should not exist! This feels like the moment ESO jumped the shark.

jaws343

Honestly, the only class I've had any issues with DC against is Necro. DC paired with the colossus ult and the self synergizing boneyard is pretty rough. Every other class using it is fairly easy to get out of.

I've found the Deathmatch only queue to be far more enjoyable. This game is awful at objective gameplay.

VaranisArano

I get going Deathmatch-only for a bit. Lots of people like Deatchmatch.

But what I'm not sure I understand is going Deathmatch-only with the current meta. Like, it was always going to be Dark Convergence and Hrothgar's Chill and proc city in Deathmatch. Sure, some people are going to love it, but for everyone who hates those sets, it's nothing but Deathmatch, dominated by the sets they hate. Not exactly the best way to give people a great Deathmatch experience, right?

jaws343

VaranisArano wrote: »

I get going Deathmatch-only for a bit. Lots of people like Deatchmatch.

But what I'm not sure I understand is going Deathmatch-only with the current meta. Like, it was always going to be Dark Convergence and Hrothgar's Chill and proc city in Deathmatch. Sure, some people are going to love it, but for everyone who hates those sets, it's nothing but Deathmatch, dominated by the sets they hate. Not exactly the best way to give people a great Deathmatch experience, right?

I guess I just don't see how that has anything to do with Deathmatch. The sets were already prevalent and far more impactful in objective modes before the BG change. Denying area with DC did more to influence relic and domination than it does to secure kills in deathmatch. And area denial in deathmatch is mostly irrelevant since you aren't fighting over a static objective and can move the fight or disengage as needed.

DavGlen

jaws343 wrote: »

I guess I just don't see how that has anything to do with Deathmatch.

Because in DM the 3 teams are almost always together, spamming procs and aoes and calling it skillful gameplay

Marcus_Aurelius

renne wrote: »

It is a test. There's even an entire thread pinned to this section of the forums about how it's a test. If they get data that it's killed interest in BGs then they have that data. From this test.

Doing a test while Dark Convegence impact so many people that refuse to do BGs because of it?
I don't want to criticize ZoS Developers but I really think they should study how good tests are done because this one will not give any meaningful data.

EndOfGreen

There should be NO tests on real servers where people pay money for game stuff. Wanna tests something? There's a dedicated testing server for that. Even though DM is a great mode (maybe the best), there MUST be a choice for all gamers. Why not to simply add mode options in a queue list?

jaws343

EndOfGreen wrote: »

There should be NO tests on real servers where people pay money for game stuff. Wanna tests something? There's a dedicated testing server for that. Even though DM is a great mode (maybe the best), there MUST be a choice for all gamers. Why not to simply add mode options in a queue list?

Unfortunately, test servers have nowhere near the population size and participation required to actually do real, legitimate testing for a number of issues. Anything that is testing stress on the server, or user participation, has to be done on the live servers to get actual data. Anything less is a joke and provides absolutely nothing of value.

Gizele

reinstalled the game to be a part of this test, count me out now because after several games of being pulled in this circle of instant ridiculous death, repeatedly, Every Match. i can only wonder how many are traumatized by this & don't wanna be part of this test anymore. like someone already mentioned, the data from this test will most likely be flawed.

Araneae6537

Because Crimson Twilight was not obnoxious enough, we now have the ultimate cheese set. Who thought a PROC that pulls AND stuns AND deals damage was a good idea???

gariondavey

Actually, tons of members of the bg community have been asking for the ability to queue for dm.
Hundreds of us.

gariondavey

But I agree that the set is very annoying. If more than 2 players in the bg have it equipped, the game is significantly less fun. If only 1-2 do, it isn't TOO bad

Foto1

"Literally no one asked for it. "
I asked

_adhyffbjjjf12

jaws343 wrote: »

EndOfGreen wrote: »

There should be NO tests on real servers where people pay money for game stuff. Wanna tests something? There's a dedicated testing server for that. Even though DM is a great mode (maybe the best), there MUST be a choice for all gamers. Why not to simply add mode options in a queue list?

Unfortunately, test servers have nowhere near the population size and participation required to actually do real, legitimate testing for a number of issues. Anything that is testing stress on the server, or user participation, has to be done on the live servers to get actual data. Anything less is a joke and provides absolutely nothing of value.

its not a valid test, its a flawed amateur statistical hack.

A person:
I started playing because I only like DM

Another person
I always played BG but I prefer DM and happy to drop objective based PVP for ever. (no statistical change)

Another Person :
I like DM but only as part of a rotation so will eventually stop playing through boredom (eventual statistical change)

Another person
I've just started playing, i wont get an opportunity to try objective based PVP. I may or may not like DM. (not measured, false reading as I like DM only?))

Another Person :
I like DM as part of a rotation. I'm not playing now in case my participation is misread as 'I like DM only' Note devs ****** this customer over just now for the sake of this 'experiment' (false statistic, i like DM)

Another person
I only like objective based PVP Il persevere because DM is all that is left. Note devs ****** this customer over just now for the sake of this 'experiment' (false statistic, I don't like DM)

Another person
I only like objective based PVP, i've stopped now and wont be back. Note devs ****** this customer over just now for the sake of this 'experiment' (treating customer badly)

Another person
I'm not playing just now for other RL reasons that happens to coincide with this 'experiment' (false statistic)

renne

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

its not a valid test, its a flawed amateur statistical hack.

That still doesn't stop it from being a test. ZoS is running tests, that's what they're doing. I mean, you don't even know what they're actually testing for because they haven't specifically said what they're actually testing for.

Just because ppl don't like it or think it's flawed doesn't actually make it any less of a test to ZoS.

_adhyffbjjjf12

renne wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

its not a valid test, its a flawed amateur statistical hack.

That still doesn't stop it from being a test. ZoS is running tests, that's what they're doing. I mean, you don't even know what they're actually testing for because they haven't specifically said what they're actually testing for.

Just because ppl don't like it or think it's flawed doesn't actually make it any less of a test to ZoS.

A test needs measurable criteria with controlled variables. A more accurate representation would be a trial which again is questionable, since this trial consists of taking away 80% of all BG content from paying customers.

StarOfElyon

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

renne wrote: »

It is a test. There's even an entire thread pinned to this section of the forums about how it's a test. If they get data that it's killed interest in BGs then they have that data. From this test.

Doing a test while Dark Convegence impact so many people that refuse to do BGs because of it?
I don't want to criticize ZoS Developers but I really think they should study how good tests are done because this one will not give any meaningful data.

I've said similar things. It's a crying shame that we got all Deathmatch, only to have it ruined by Dark Convergence. PLAYERS LEAVE MATCHES DUE TO THIS SET!

McTaterskins

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Doing a test while Dark Convegence impact so many people that refuse to do BGs because of it?
I don't want to criticize ZoS Developers but I really think they should study how good tests are done because this one will not give any meaningful data.

I've said similar things. It's a crying shame that we got all Deathmatch, only to have it ruined by Dark Convergence. PLAYERS LEAVE MATCHES DUE TO THIS SET!

Quoted for truth and agreement.