Some dungeon game design is terrible. Please improve

AvalonRanger

<Some dungeon game design is terrible. Please improve>

Recently, I've started dungeon content. And I found several bad game
design of dungeon content which needs to improve.

#1 Sometimes one of group member stuck in front of the door, and can't proceed next map.


#2 Strange or bad dungeon level design

<example> Strange wooden scaffoldings of Elden Hollow dungeon.


Sometimes people lose pledge mission target location in the intersection of the field.
Please put the something guide object on the field.




#3 Must include effective tutorial contents to avoid unpredictable and unfair super stressful
sudden death of last boss of dungeon.

Maybe, experienced player who are repeating same dungeon over and over can easily get accustomed to
avoiding lethal damage. However, some of lethal boss attack sign is too much "abstract" or "nonsense"
for the fresh man who try to challenge unknown dungeon. And there're not much good tutorial combat mission
in the dungeon before engaging dangerous boss.

<example> Depth of Malatar last boss (*This is YouTube video capture, not mine)


After white out, I've suddenly died. And I couldn't understand what kind of boss attack killed me,
or couldn't find out how to avoid such kind of damage.

<example>Lethal spike coming from ground "Cradle Of Shadows Dungeon last boss"



PS. Listen ZOS, please do not ignore minority report from players


ZOS usually ignore minority report or bug complaint of players from 2014.

aaisoaho

I disagree with the third part. The dungeons do a good job on teaching the mechanics, they do assume you know interrupting, blocking and aoes tho.

For example: WGT teaches you the portal mechanic before planar inhibitor, Bloodroot Forge teaches you the fire shalk and volcano mechanic before bosses utilising them and actually the spike of Velidreth is explained. Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

whitecrow

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

It's confusing because she is trying to kill you, so what you would think is to do the opposite of what she says!

Dropstitch

whitecrow wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

It's confusing because she is trying to kill you, so what you would think is to do the opposite of what she says!

It is slightly odd. Kinda like a boxer shouting "jab, jab, cross" at their opponent just before they throw them in a fight. I mean- why?

Kiralyn2000

Dropstitch wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

It's confusing because she is trying to kill you, so what you would think is to do the opposite of what she says!

It is slightly odd. Kinda like a boxer shouting "jab, jab, cross" at their opponent just before they throw them in a fight. I mean- why?

Because it's a game, not real life?


I mean, the boxer isn't going to 100% of the time yell "I will destroy you!" right before his big haymaker, right? But attack tells before Big Boss Attacks is pretty standard for any Boss Fight game.

zvavi

DoM example: died to the wall. Doesn't take a lot to understand that.
Veli example: she literally tells you to not move a muscle.

Agenericname

Dropstitch wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

It's confusing because she is trying to kill you, so what you would think is to do the opposite of what she says!

It is slightly odd. Kinda like a boxer shouting "jab, jab, cross" at their opponent just before they throw them in a fight. I mean- why?

They sacrificed some realism in order to telegraph the mechanics. Its not as realistic as Jorvuld guiding you through Scalecaller Peak, but it serves the same purpose. Its a fair trade IMO.

Dropstitch

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Dropstitch wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

It's confusing because she is trying to kill you, so what you would think is to do the opposite of what she says!

It is slightly odd. Kinda like a boxer shouting "jab, jab, cross" at their opponent just before they throw them in a fight. I mean- why?

Because it's a game, not real life?


I mean, the boxer isn't going to 100% of the time yell "I will destroy you!" right before his big haymaker, right? But attack tells before Big Boss Attacks is pretty standard for any Boss Fight game.

Shouting "I will destroy you!" might give you an advantage as you will momentarily confuse them. Shouting "E.T phone home!" gives you a lot more of an advantage.

whitecrow

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

But attack tells before Big Boss Attacks is pretty standard for any Boss Fight game.

They have gestures that act as tells but I can't think of another that explicitly instructs you how to avoid harm.

El_Borracho

If the game telling you what to do is too hard, there are many, many guides out there online that explain the dungeons to you. Though I had to laugh at the EH critique. First time I've ever seen a complaint about pointless scaffolding interrupting game play

Dropstitch

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the game telling you what to do is too hard, there are many, many guides out there online that explain the dungeons to you. Though I had to laugh at the EH critique. First time I've ever seen a complaint about pointless scaffolding interrupting game play

I can't believe the scaffolding was mentioned and not the crate sitting underneath it. I mean what the hell is that doing there?

Puzzlenuts

I'd happy to get through the door in wayrest sewers without having to do a bunch of door mechanics

Shantu

I never really had much off an issue with dungeon design. The only thing that drives me crazy is when trying to solo some of the earlier dungeons. For example, the frustrating de-sync of some two-hander bosses (like the final bosses in Banished Cells 1, Blessed Crucible, and Crypt of Hearts 1) is absurd. I mean it's not a huge issue in completing those trials, but being frozen and unable to move while the boss smacks you, or being damaged by an AOE your are clearly out off, just screams of buggy design and sucks the enjoyment out of the experience.

moo_2021

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

I played it over half a dozen times and never realized it's saying anything.

The dungeon is dark and confusing as hell, and the snares! Hate all dark dungeons...

AvalonRanger

I've been playing most of AAA action game through more than 10 years.
But, ESO is the most stressful combat game just rather than boring old fashioned
action game.

[snip]

#1 Why level design is so important?
-->Because, it defines how to act through the game sequence for the players.
Not just decoration of the background landscape.

<Group dungeon map should not be actual maze>

"Hey!! what are you doing!? keep taunting!"
"What are you waiting for? Just go!! We need to finish pledge ASAP. Why are you keep standing there?"

(Personally say, MMO grouping mission is so stressful for me. When someone picked up chest, it's a only relief time )

Exploring essence of the grouping dungeon is meaningless.
We can't enjoy "exploring or reading lore, or just enjoy landscape" like the
Skyrim or Fallout4 at the grouping dungeon anyway.

There're no reason build dead-end corridor or (*#1)meaningless scaffoldings which doesn't have tactical
benefit for the combat. It should be more "liner road" without any branch.
(*#1 ESO doesn't have any of elevation combat mechanics. Everything hold on flat ground.
What a old fashioned game !! )

#2 Why UI design is so important for the game design?
-->Because, it's a most important communication tools to send the correct message to the players.
-->Please check screenshot I put it at the this thread before.

<ESO doesn't have integrated UI designing rules which every people can easily understand game system.>

-->In the DeadSpace, player and all NPC have health bar at the back of spine.
It's a unified rules of UI design in the DeadSpace world.

-->In the DOOM ETERNAL, "green light" indicates main road direction or explains
the game hint for the players. It's a unified design rules.

--> ESO also has "red marker" which tell the players dangerous situation. But, there're too
much variation of damage amount through the ESO world. And, there're not clear sign
lethal or average. Moreover, there're not much unified designing rules.It's so chaos.
Sometime, it's too much abstract design direction and rough way.
-->Please check screenshot I put it at the this thread before.

[snip]


PS. ESO is my first MMO experience, and will be last experience. If ESO is the best MMORPG,
I don't want to play these type of game anymore.

[edited for bashing]

karekiz

You will always have some mechanics not telegraphed 100% in content. ESO has some bad ones, but they are few.

Moongrave IMO first boss is probably an example of a "Bad" design in that way. You go through a whole bunch of first trash being forced to be taught the box mechanic to immediately hit the first boss with the orb mechanic that you have never used before.


It feels like they needed to swap Boss 1 for the Gargoyle boss. I also dislike that boss because giant hit box + swarms of trash is just clunky AF.

Jazraena

Frankly, I think ESO does hilariously bad at preparing new players for what's going on in boss fights. The tells are there usually, but they're only really obvious for those already aware of them - a better reminder than an explanation for the unaware.

This goes doubly so for the mechanics 'explained' by random trash mobs before a boss. A mob does a funny effect, it doesn't really hurt you much. Why doesn't it die? Oh, now it did, maybe someone else knew how. Can't be important, whatever it was. Cue boss fight -> wipe, because evidently it wasn't explained properly. Fairly standard with many mechanics.

My favourite to this day is Selenes Web Vet. Braindead easy to tank, really. But why, why the hell does the final boss one shot you with a heavy attack that the game taught you to block? Of the few things this game does teach it punishes you if you do so?

On the other hand, some effects look far more deadly than they are. It creates this weird dichotomy where you really just need to know which stuff instant-kills you, and which will only tickle, irrespective of tells.

Parrot1986

On the boss mechanics and telegraphing, the game shouldn’t hold your hand too much and it should require an element of figuring stuff out. Also voice commands from the boss give additional hints.

For depths of Malator the gold wall walking towards you with no way past is a fairly clear indication you need to do something I.e kill an add. This boss calls on meridian soldiers and makes it clear these are enemies, therefore you must kill them.

For cradle of shadows the spike mechanic zos has improved this greatly. Previously there was only keeping an eye on the boss or watching the ground shake on the floor to know. Now they have added an aoe over your feet which fills and you need to roll dodge when it’s close to full. Velidreth also says at this point “stay still” which is key to this mechanic so the hints are there.

Thing is you might die to these mechanics a few times then you figure out what’s happening and then you don’t die anymore. That’s a huge part to mmo gameplay and shouldn’t be too watered down otherwise you go into dungeons and one shot them.

Similarly with quest guidance, I’d personally rather go back to less guidance and markers and need to read quest text to figure out what to do. Some line on the ground telling me to follow this sounds like a total waste of what is meant to be an exploration experience.

The games not perfect and doesn’t always prepare new players the best however I know existing players do spend time explaining mechanics and helping as well which i also think is really good.

wishlist14

Dropstitch wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If the game telling you what to do is too hard, there are many, many guides out there online that explain the dungeons to you. Though I had to laugh at the EH critique. First time I've ever seen a complaint about pointless scaffolding interrupting game play

I can't believe the scaffolding was mentioned and not the crate sitting underneath it. I mean what the hell is that doing there?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Jazraena

I honestly don't think randomly dying is a good way to 'figure things out'.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Parrot1986

Jazraena wrote: »

I honestly don't think randomly dying is a good way to 'figure things out'.

[snip]

You don’t ever randomly die. You get hit by an attack that kills you. That attack you can almost certainly be avoided and then you won’t die.

The heavy attack example you gave in selenes isn’t a one shot for tanks. You can block the damage. If you died to it either you weren’t blocking maybe if you were bar swapping or had no stam so block doesn’t mitigate the damage.

There are some poorly telegraphed attacks such as stone garden HM and the boss attack that applies a terrible bleed on the tank, this can be dodged but it’s very hard to see and do regularly.

[edited to remove quote]

alanmatillab16_ESO

amusing dungeon design?

Consider this: There are more than a few tombs etc that have been sealed for decades or centuries until you go mooching in opening all the urns and barrels looking for provisions to make breakfast

magnusthorek

I have to agree with Velidreth's pike. The "don't move a muscle" thing isn't the problem because you do have, assuming default colours, a tiny green circle under your feet while the whole arena becomes red (green = good; red = bad). The problem is the second pike as the red circle expands relatively too fast for a perfect dodge (I've failed several times in getting the no-death for the ugly skin because of this).

You have to look at her, in the ceiling (meaning you won't be able to see the floor where the circle is), and when she starts "wiggling" it's your indication you have to dodge soon but the actual dodging time is when she's coming down, about 1/3 (maybe 2/3) the distance between the ceiling and the floor

Jazraena

[snip]

And yes, of course dying is always the result of an attack or another. But it feels random often enough to a newer, less experienced player, which is the point I'm trying to make.

As for Selene's Web - unless they nerfed it it's absolutely a oneshot even on a 44k health Tank with max res, blocking, Defensive Stance slotted and Bound Aegis active.
Now, I haven't actually tried to block it in a long while, so it's entirely possible that was altered in the meanwhile.

[edited for discussing moderator action]

Parrot1986

magnusthorek wrote: »

I have to agree with Velidreth's pike. The "don't move a muscle" thing isn't the problem because you do have, assuming default colours, a tiny green circle under your feet while the whole arena becomes red (green = good; red = bad). The problem is the second pike as the red circle expands relatively too fast for a perfect dodge (I've failed several times in getting the no-death for the ugly skin because of this).

You have to look at her, in the ceiling (meaning you won't be able to see the floor where the circle is), and when she starts "wiggling" it's your indication you have to dodge soon but the actual dodging time is when she's coming down, about 1/3 (maybe 2/3) the distance between the ceiling and the floor

Ok it’s each to their own I guess. Since the floor addition I’ve never needed to use anything else. You don’t need a perfect roll dodge anything from half full is enough to miss it

Parrot1986

Jazraena wrote: »

[snip]

And yes, of course dying is always the result of an attack or another. But it feels random often enough to a newer, less experienced player, which is the point I'm trying to make.

As for Selene's Web - unless they nerfed it it's absolutely a oneshot even on a 44k health Tank with max res, blocking, Defensive Stance slotted and Bound Aegis active.
Now, I haven't actually tried to block it in a long while, so it's entirely possible that was altered in the meanwhile.

[snip]

For me death recaps, repetition and group play is a the eduction of mechanics I’d rather have. I don’t want a game that telegraphs everything to the point where it’s pretty much impossible to die especially if your an experienced player.

I totally get there needs to be a balance but making it fit for new players only makes the experience worse for experience players who enjoy any challenge they can get in a game already watered down.

On selenes I’ve ran pledges as a tank for about 18 months and never had a death to the heavy or bear attack with 34k health and 27k resistances.

As far as I’m aware especially non dlc there are literally no true one shot attacks from any boss for a tank. Not including pin attack in FG2 from 2nd boss as that’s locked behind something that the group needs to do.

[edited to remove quote & for discussing moderator action]

aaisoaho

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I've been playing most of AAA action game through more than 10 years.
But, ESO is the most stressful combat game just rather than boring old fashioned
action game.

[snip]

#1 Why level design is so important?
-->Because, it defines how to act through the game sequence for the players.
Not just decoration of the background landscape.

<Group dungeon map should not be actual maze>

"Hey!! what are you doing!? keep taunting!"
"What are you waiting for? Just go!! We need to finish pledge ASAP. Why are you keep standing there?"

(Personally say, MMO grouping mission is so stressful for me. When someone picked up chest, it's a only relief time )

Exploring essence of the grouping dungeon is meaningless.
We can't enjoy "exploring or reading lore, or just enjoy landscape" like the
Skyrim or Fallout4 at the grouping dungeon anyway.

There're no reason build dead-end corridor or (*#1)meaningless scaffoldings which doesn't have tactical
benefit for the combat. It should be more "liner road" without any branch.
(*#1 ESO doesn't have any of elevation combat mechanics. Everything hold on flat ground.
What a old fashioned game !! )

#2 Why UI design is so important for the game design?
-->Because, it's a most important communication tools to send the correct message to the players.
-->Please check screenshot I put it at the this thread before.

<ESO doesn't have integrated UI designing rules which every people can easily understand game system.>

-->In the DeadSpace, player and all NPC have health bar at the back of spine.
It's a unified rules of UI design in the DeadSpace world.

-->In the DOOM ETERNAL, "green light" indicates main road direction or explains
the game hint for the players. It's a unified design rules.

--> ESO also has "red marker" which tell the players dangerous situation. But, there're too
much variation of damage amount through the ESO world. And, there're not clear sign
lethal or average. Moreover, there're not much unified designing rules.It's so chaos.
Sometime, it's too much abstract design direction and rough way.
-->Please check screenshot I put it at the this thread before.

[snip]


PS. ESO is my first MMO experience, and will be last experience. If ESO is the best MMORPG,
I don't want to play these type of game anymore.

[edited for bashing]

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, but let me try to counter some of your points.

First of all, there's absolutely no rule of "make levels linear" in game design. The one thing I do remember from the studies is, that each dead end should contain some kind of reward for the explorer. In Disneyland, it can be a carbage bin, and in ESO's dungeons it can be a barrel or a bookshelf.

A maze design is actually part of a challenge in Ruins of Mazzatun, and it has a meaning there. It is meaningful both for the gameplay purposes but also meaningful for the storytelling.

IIRC the hist makes the argonian tribe crazy in RoM and makes them create organized structures of stone into a maze-like structure, where an abudance of dead ends are. One section of the said dungeon is a maze, where players intuitively end up in dead ends filled with enemies. If a player figures out the maze by looking the map instead of going by intuition, they are rewarded by not having to fight packs of mobs.

And I wouldn't go so far as to call the dungeon team amateurs, since they actually do practice a lot of textbook material. Let's take the example of Fang Lair next.

You get to see a glimpse of where you are headed at the beginning of the dungeon. The ending is shown time to time, and in the meanwhile you crawl deeper. This technique of level design is sometimes called 'Denial and reward'.

Design choices are often subtle in ESO, but everything does seem to have a meaning. Nothing is random or out of place, when you dig deeper into it. The scaffolding you keep mentioning? Have you tried to look it like it was an arrow? Where the lines move your view? They point you into the direction where to go next - they point you to an opening. They guide you.

Darkstorne

I'm gonna take the opportunity to praise Tarcyr's mechanics design here, in the March of Sacrifices dungeon:

The main mechanic that can cause confusion here is when he turns invisible to stalk you, and the game wants you to enter stealth mode and keep moving about to avoid detection. That's not something you normally do in combat like blocking, or interrupting, or dodging, which is always well telegraphed. This is a brand new mechanic. And while many other bosses will one-shot you if you fail to instantly understand their unique mechanic, with Tarcyr you just take regular amounts of damage if you fail to sneak, with the game and the token NPC advisor repeatedly telling you to sneak. It's only if the boss hits you three times that you'll die, at which point... that's 100% on you for not learning

AlnilamE

moo_2021 wrote: »

aaisoaho wrote: »

Velidreth climbs to the ceiling and says "Don't move a muscle" and she means it! If you move, she kills you with the spike. If you stay still, you get an aoe effect growing under your feet, you must dodge it just before the aoe is at its full size.

I played it over half a dozen times and never realized it's saying anything.

The dungeon is dark and confusing as hell, and the snares! Hate all dark dungeons...

I mean, it's called "The Cradle of Shadows". That is truth in advertising if I've ever seen it.

Another tell of when to dodge is there will be a small puff of smoke beneath your feet.

Parrot1986 wrote: »

On the boss mechanics and telegraphing, the game shouldn’t hold your hand too much and it should require an element of figuring stuff out. Also voice commands from the boss give additional hints.

For depths of Malator the gold wall walking towards you with no way past is a fairly clear indication you need to do something I.e kill an add. This boss calls on meridian soldiers and makes it clear these are enemies, therefore you must kill them.

I've not done DoM very often, but when I died to the wall when it's a windmill formation and it was coming up behind me and I didn't get out of the way in time because I didn't see it. It's an interesting mechanic, though.

Ratzkifal

Not sure what the issue with the "strange wooden scaffolding" is. It doesn't really distract anyone, does it? And they were clearly digging for something before we arrived, so it makes sense for there to be some, does it not?

Jazraena

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

[snip]

And yes, of course dying is always the result of an attack or another. But it feels random often enough to a newer, less experienced player, which is the point I'm trying to make.

As for Selene's Web - unless they nerfed it it's absolutely a oneshot even on a 44k health Tank with max res, blocking, Defensive Stance slotted and Bound Aegis active.
Now, I haven't actually tried to block it in a long while, so it's entirely possible that was altered in the meanwhile.

[snip]

For me death recaps, repetition and group play is a the eduction of mechanics I’d rather have. I don’t want a game that telegraphs everything to the point where it’s pretty much impossible to die especially if your an experienced player.

I totally get there needs to be a balance but making it fit for new players only makes the experience worse for experience players who enjoy any challenge they can get in a game already watered down.

On selenes I’ve ran pledges as a tank for about 18 months and never had a death to the heavy or bear attack with 34k health and 27k resistances.

As far as I’m aware especially non dlc there are literally no true one shot attacks from any boss for a tank. Not including pin attack in FG2 from 2nd boss as that’s locked behind something that the group needs to do.

[edited to remove quote & for discussing moderator action]

Oh, never at risk is not something I want either. But oneshots, in particular but not exclusively with tanks, aren't the way to go IMHO; least of all when you're blocking. It completely negates any point of trying to build for survivability, is needlessly punishing for a brief moment of lag, an imprecise AoE, or even just a newer player missing something the first time around. It also is at least partially responsible for why many groups dispense with a tank - why sacrifice damage for tankiness when said tankiness doesn't keep you alive any more than the DPS even in most boss fights?

As much as I hate Fang Lair HM hitboxes and AoE zones, Orryn's channel attack is actually a good example what I like - you can weather it if you're ready for it (and if not you likely shouldn't be there) but probably not several times in a row or if you make a second mistake at the same time.

As for Selene's Web - as said, I haven't tried to block it in forever. May well have been longer than 18 months, and changed at some point during that time. If so, good. That bothers/bothered me to no end. I'll give it a try next time I'm there.