Please buff the overworld enemies.

FlopsyPrince

Vhozek wrote: »

I just got done playing New World beta for 10 hours and the difficulty level in that game is amazing. ESO is my first MMO and New World would be my second so I don't know if it's normal but, certain areas had specific level enemies and they just completely destroyed me every time I tried to fight them. It wasn't even discouraging, it just made me want to beat them even more. Someone please take a look at that system and replicate it because I feel much more incentivized to play that game. Even the combat is similar but feels much more fleshed out and with some weight behind each attack. It feels ALIVE and I want ESO to feel that way too.
Reminder that we already have companions that can make the game easier for casual players so it won't hurt them at all to make the overworld more difficult. Also, if you're concerned that certain zones will feel bad due to enemies being too weak after you have leveled up, does that not make sense? You leveled up to be stronger, not up to par with overworld mobs. Plus you will already be doing raids/trials and high level content at that point, not trying to progress anymore. Probably the ONLY concern is quest bosses being too weak once you decide to come back to quest at max level.

IF THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT THE JOURNEY, THEN YOU MIGHT AS WELL START SELLING MAX LEVEL CHARACTERS IN THE SHOP.

Fight the guy with disciples in Southern Elsweyr if you want impossible bosses. I am sure some here can tank them, but even the disciples hit me like a truck so I can only do them as part of a group.

MagmaFerret

Vhozek wrote: »

I just got done playing New World beta for 10 hours and the difficulty level in that game is amazing. ESO is my first MMO and New World would be my second so I don't know if it's normal but, certain areas had specific level enemies and they just completely destroyed me every time I tried to fight them. It wasn't even discouraging, it just made me want to beat them even more. Someone please take a look at that system and replicate it because I feel much more incentivized to play that game. Even the combat is similar but feels much more fleshed out and with some weight behind each attack. It feels ALIVE and I want ESO to feel that way too.
Reminder that we already have companions that can make the game easier for casual players so it won't hurt them at all to make the overworld more difficult. Also, if you're concerned that certain zones will feel bad due to enemies being too weak after you have leveled up, does that not make sense? You leveled up to be stronger, not up to par with overworld mobs. Plus you will already be doing raids/trials and high level content at that point, not trying to progress anymore. Probably the ONLY concern is quest bosses being too weak once you decide to come back to quest at max level.

IF THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT THE JOURNEY, THEN YOU MIGHT AS WELL START SELLING MAX LEVEL CHARACTERS IN THE SHOP.

So, I'll just say that the answer to a Hard-core player being bored should probably never be blanket difficulty changes. And let's be honest, but unless you're the biggest Whale in the ESO player base, Zenimax isn't likely to change things just because you say so.

MMOs that isolate the Casual players don't tend to have large player counts. And they might quickly gain the reputation of being "toxic" or "bad". Part of the whole Massively Multiplayer deal is also dealing with players who don't know how to build a character able to one-shot world bosses (yes, that's an exaggeration). MMO devs have to try to balance this, meaning that there's a difficulty curve just based off individual player knowledge.

Demands for blanket changes aside, Difficulty Instancing would be a decent fix for this. As would having harder, or "Veteran" servers. But I then wonder how long until these harder versions of ESO would be labeled as "too easy".

Personally, I don't see any changes needed with the Overworld mobs. Mowing through packs of wolves can make some players feel "powerful", and it can also increase the impact of an important boss if these "powerful" characters struggle against them, or even die to them. For others, the mobs are mostly a nuisance. I'm running into an issue where players keep rushing through content, dragging trains of aggroed mobs behind them, and dumping them into my (already tedious) mob fights. Or these same players dragging mobs away from a resource they were spawned at, losing aggro, and the mobs returning in the middle of my gathering. Blanket mob buffing simply means that I now need to waste more time on cannon fodder, or having an increased risk of losing my resources to another player not stuck in a mob fight (because I've seen plenty of players camp a mob guarded node, waiting for someone else to clear them; or only gathering from nodes that had mobs currently being cleared by another player).

Additionally, to the "just group up" statements supporting blanket buffing, Casuals are less likely to guild and group up. Most guilds large enough to have a handful of players online round the clock will kick you if you go inactive, which Casuals do often. Plus, many random groups tend to have at least one player who's enjoyment of the game is "ruined by Casuals" and will state that everyone should be optimized or quit. For most Casuals, MMO means that there's tons of other players running around in the same area as you, and you can see them. It doesn't mean that every bit of game content needs to be done with others. Your typical Casual will also more likely be mad about games that are "Online Required" or "Forced Co-op". Making all of the content require a group to complete will isolate and push away Casual players.

So, in my opinion:
Blanket Overworld mob buff = bad
Optional higher difficulty instancing = sounds good to me

[Edit] Fixed a spelling error

amanes

No thank you.

SirPaws

I sometimes get a bit frustrated by the low-difficulty of overland content, but wouldn't want to see the game return to how it was when I started playing. I got the game on Xbox on release but never got my character past level 30. Iirc, I burned out when I got to Rivenspire.

Nowadays the game is so much more enjoyable so I don't think buffing overland enemies is the way to go. That said, I don't think nerfing the player is fun, either, so I tend to disagree with the "just wear white gear" approach.

It's probably a bad idea, but I wonder if overland difficulty could be played with using Mythics. When the Thrassian Stranglers landed, I'd put them on for doing overland stuff for extra squishiness. The risk/reward was quite fun and made overland a bit more challenging.

I'd be curious to see if future Mythics could address difficulty in a fun way somehow, like an item that increases damage taken from all sources by x% but carries an x% chance of double-drops from all harvest nodes and treasure chests. Something that's totally optional, wouldn't require an experienced player to nerf themselves by changing their build too much, while at the same time making overland more rewarding (and possibly tackling the issue of inflated prices of crafting mats in the process).

Biro123

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

Its true, we don't want to. Part of the game is progression, improving your character through unlocking skills and finding gear. This is a major part of RPGs and a key reason why many of us are playing an RPG.

And yes its still too easy. I've levelled 2 brand new characters recently, not spending cp, not crafting anything, not using food or pots, just the gear found while overland questing. It was too easy.

Nobody said that its impossible to die with trash gear. It IS impossible to die with the meta endgame Stam PvP setup - the kind of stuff I normally wear.

Biro123

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

zelaminator

Biro123 wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

Its true, we don't want to. Part of the game is progression, improving your character through unlocking skills and finding gear. This is a major part of RPGs and a key reason why many of us are playing an RPG.

And yes its still too easy. I've levelled 2 brand new characters recently, not spending cp, not crafting anything, not using food or pots, just the gear found while overland questing. It was too easy.

Nobody said that its impossible to die with trash gear. It IS impossible to die with the meta endgame Stam PvP setup - the kind of stuff I normally wear.

Biro123 wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

Its true, we don't want to.
Nobody said that its impossible to die with trash gear. It IS impossible to die with the meta endgame Stam PvP setup - the kind of stuff I normally wear.

And that's part of the reason that you most likely won't get a solution.. you don't want to use the one there is.. you expect a wolf to be as dangerous as a trial enemy.. you use gear that is made to kill some of the hardest in-game content, and expect that 100% regular enemies will be a challenge.. that's not how it works here.. And yes, many claims gave been made that it's impossible to die in white trash gear and even naked

Coatmagic

zelaminator wrote: »

And that's part of the reason that you most likely won't get a solution.. you don't want to use the one there is.. you expect a wolf to be as dangerous as a trial enemy.. you use gear that is made to kill some of the hardest in-game content, and expect that 100% regular enemies will be a challenge.. that's not how it works here.. And yes, many claims gave been made that it's impossible to die in white trash gear and even naked

Now that's a 'hold my beer' proposal if ever there was one

PS: Yes, it'd be nice if they hadn't made things quite this easy, but it is what it is.

PPS: BTW, if you are new and clueless you can still die to overland trash. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've had to afk while out doing surveys and making dinner at same time and come back dead and I'm wearing gold gear and sitting at 1700 cp. xD

vingarmo

zelaminator wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

Its true, we don't want to. Part of the game is progression, improving your character through unlocking skills and finding gear. This is a major part of RPGs and a key reason why many of us are playing an RPG.

And yes its still too easy. I've levelled 2 brand new characters recently, not spending cp, not crafting anything, not using food or pots, just the gear found while overland questing. It was too easy.

Nobody said that its impossible to die with trash gear. It IS impossible to die with the meta endgame Stam PvP setup - the kind of stuff I normally wear.

Biro123 wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

Its true, we don't want to.
Nobody said that its impossible to die with trash gear. It IS impossible to die with the meta endgame Stam PvP setup - the kind of stuff I normally wear.

And that's part of the reason that you most likely won't get a solution.. you don't want to use the one there is.. you expect a wolf to be as dangerous as a trial enemy.. you use gear that is made to kill some of the hardest in-game content, and expect that 100% regular enemies will be a challenge.. that's not how it works here.. And yes, many claims gave been made that it's impossible to die in white trash gear and even naked

Nobody expect animal mobs to be a challenge and they aren’t even in vet dungeons. However, it’s hard to take story seriously when big bad boss in main dlc stories much weaker compare to their minions from dungeons and trials (for example Lady Thorn and that guy you fought at the end of reach dlc or Pyroturge Encratis vs final boss of Blackwood). Optional hard mode for quest bosses (a lot of them are instanced already btw) is bare minimum that I wish will be added in the future.
Increased difficulty for generic enemies could be done in a lot of different ways: different instances, unique mystic/scroll debuff, quests with different difficulty, etc. My personal favorite here would be mystic akin Symbol of Avarice from Dark Souls which will drain you hp over time/apply heal debuff/damage done debuff/increased damage received while granting you more chances for drops, higher quality loot and more gold. But that mystic still would be tricky to balance correctly to avoid cases where it could be abused.
Making yourself weaker is not a solution but lazy workaround that does everything against what rpg genre stands for (that is character progression ofc) and for obvious reasons rightfully ignored by most.

Tandor

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

No, I'm not suggesting a level 30 gets level 32 gear.

At present, dropped gear scales to your level, being capped at CP160 based on encounters that some players are complaining are facepalmingly easy. By and large even when levelling alts through the overland content they have a lot of CPs, also of course when they are taking a maxed character through new DLC/Chapter content. What a lot of them say is that they want a much tougher encounter but that they also want gear commensurate to that increase in challenge - in other words, they want something significantly better than the standard scaled gear that would continue to drop for those not opting for the tougher mode which I call veteran mode. Veteran in this context is not a reference to past veteran levels, it's simply a term to distinguish the tougher challenge that players could opt for from the standard default encounters that other newer and more casual players would still pursue. That's where I think it becomes unbalanced because the proposal doesn't just introduce a greater level of challenge for those who want it, it also introduces a greater level of dropped gear for those choosing that option than currently exists in overland content, otherwise some of them they say there is no incentive to opt for the greater level of challenge. For some it's just about the challenge, for others it's also about the drops - and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game. That was my point.

the1andonlyskwex

Tandor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

No, I'm not suggesting a level 30 gets level 32 gear.

At present, dropped gear scales to your level, being capped at CP160 based on encounters that some players are complaining are facepalmingly easy. By and large even when levelling alts through the overland content they have a lot of CPs, also of course when they are taking a maxed character through new DLC/Chapter content. What a lot of them say is that they want a much tougher encounter but that they also want gear commensurate to that increase in challenge - in other words, they want something significantly better than the standard scaled gear that would continue to drop for those not opting for the tougher mode which I call veteran mode. Veteran in this context is not a reference to past veteran levels, it's simply a term to distinguish the tougher challenge that players could opt for from the standard default encounters that other newer and more casual players would still pursue. That's where I think it becomes unbalanced because the proposal doesn't just introduce a greater level of challenge for those who want it, it also introduces a greater level of dropped gear for those choosing that option than currently exists in overland content, otherwise some of them they say there is no incentive to opt for the greater level of challenge. For some it's just about the challenge, for others it's also about the drops - and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game. That was my point.

I agree, and to clarify, there's more to "better loot" than just higher level drops. Normally overland enemies drop a mix of white, green, blue, and (rarely) purple gear. A lot of people asking for a veteran overland mode seem to want something like how veteran dungeons work, where the level of the gear isn't higher, but the quality is. There are also suggestions for things like double drops from crafting nodes in veteran mode.

At the end of the day, I tend to see all of the proposals that mention better loot as people thinking that a veteran mode will let them more efficiently leverage their OP trials build to speed up their gold/mat farming.

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Parasaurolophus

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Players who prefer casual content and stories for relaxed gameplay shouldn't care if someone else gets better rewards. After all, the best rewards were never meant to complete lightweight content. And the game has not always made any special awards for the sloppy content. Perfect sets differ little from non-perfect. And triple achievement awards are just makeup. I am not against such a policy, really. Just do not think that people who will play in easy mode will somehow be greatly disadvantaged.

PS: You shouldn't equate all the players who are asked to make a difficult overland. We have different opinions on how it should look like, how it should be rewarded and how difficult it should be. We have no consensus. However, the fact that 90% of the content is just a boring walking / dialogue simulator is a real problem to which you simply cannot turn a blind eye.

Lugaldu

I was recently playing through the Glenumbra main quest again after a long time. What a tremendous tension is being built with Angof the Gravesinger, big evil villain. And then, finally, the crucial final battle - however, Angof was dead within 3 seconds... What an immersion.

So, yes, please, something about the bosses urgently needs to be improved.

Artim_X

There are many ways to make eso harder for oneself (turn off cp and don't use bis gear).

One can hang around Craglorn for a challenge (most of it can be done solo even normal dragonstar arena). The solo arenas offer a decent challenge on vet. You can also go around killing world bosses.

Companions are only good for overland content and even then they're rubbish. I'm always seeing high CP players struggle in overland so not everyone out here knows what they are doing.

ESO offers plenty of challenging content for those who think overland is too easy (what I mentioned above, trials, dungeons, Imperial City, etc.).

I think ZOS is more interested in catering to everyone and not only those who wants every encounter to feel like Dark Souls.

theyancey

NO. Not here nor in any of the other umpteenth threads asking for ESO to be converted to some type of difficult Neverwinter, BDO, NW, or other game. This is ESO. The number one principle that it is built on is the lore. It is storytelling. It is book reading. It is roll playing. It is what it is and is such for a reason. It will never be a totally PvP focused game and it will never be some uber difficult challenge to a small group who think that they are some Daedric gift to gaming. It should remain as intended: an Elder Scrolls online game that offers the widest possible appeal to the largest population of players including PvP and PvE and offering both group and solo content all the while remaking true to the lore first and foremost. Locking the casual player base out of the game would cause great damage not only to ESO but to the franchise across the board. That should not and will not happen.

Biro123

Tandor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

No, I'm not suggesting a level 30 gets level 32 gear.

At present, dropped gear scales to your level, being capped at CP160 based on encounters that some players are complaining are facepalmingly easy. By and large even when levelling alts through the overland content they have a lot of CPs, also of course when they are taking a maxed character through new DLC/Chapter content. What a lot of them say is that they want a much tougher encounter but that they also want gear commensurate to that increase in challenge - in other words, they want something significantly better than the standard scaled gear that would continue to drop for those not opting for the tougher mode which I call veteran mode. Veteran in this context is not a reference to past veteran levels, it's simply a term to distinguish the tougher challenge that players could opt for from the standard default encounters that other newer and more casual players would still pursue. That's where I think it becomes unbalanced because the proposal doesn't just introduce a greater level of challenge for those who want it, it also introduces a greater level of dropped gear for those choosing that option than currently exists in overland content, otherwise some of them they say there is no incentive to opt for the greater level of challenge. For some it's just about the challenge, for others it's also about the drops - and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game. That was my point.

I dont think I've actually seen anyone who wants a difficulty option ask for better loot. If they have, it's a minority. I don't think anybody is expecting to see cp180 gear from this - why would they? Vet dungeons and trials don't give that.
If it were to offer better loot (and I don't think it should), surely it would just be a slightly higher drop chance of better quality loot (blue vs green etc.), which, for farming would barely offset the additional time taken to kill the mobs.

A direct question. Do you have a problem with the suggestion to have an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that provides no better rewards? Aside from your belief that nobody wants that.

Parasaurolophus

theyancey wrote: »

NO. Not here nor in any of the other umpteenth threads asking for ESO to be converted to some type of difficult Neverwinter, BDO, NW, or other game. This is ESO. The number one principle that it is built on is the lore. It is storytelling. It is book reading. It is roll playing. It is what it is and is such for a reason. It will never be a totally PvP focused game and it will never be some uber difficult challenge to a small group who think that they are some Daedric gift to gaming. It should remain as intended: an Elder Scrolls online game that offers the widest possible appeal to the largest population of players including PvP and PvE and offering both group and solo content all the while remaking true to the lore first and foremost. Locking the casual player base out of the game would cause great damage not only to ESO but to the franchise across the board. That should not and will not happen.

What does lore have to do with it? We are asking for an option, not to turn all locations into darksouls

drunkendx

OP, if you like NW combat so much, well, soon you can go play it at leave us players who like ESO as it is to play as we like.

drunkendx

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Dungeons and Dragon Online proved you right with reaper difficulty.

It was supposed to bring challenge to powerful players and instead it became meta where you could rarely find group if you did not wanna do reaper content.

LordArconSeptim

Overland bosses are fine, leave them alone ESO is the best MMO right now and will stay so for long time...ESO is a huge game and compared to any mmo currently on the market they stand no chance

Biro123

drunkendx wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Dungeons and Dragon Online proved you right with reaper difficulty.

It was supposed to bring challenge to powerful players and instead it became meta where you could rarely find group if you did not wanna do reaper content.

It's why I don't want a vet zone, just an optional battle-spirit-like debuff (Of varying severities) that I can choose whether to apply to my character or not.
I wouldn't use it for farming, but would use it for the following:
Doing story quests on my main in a new zone/dlc (fairly hard setting)
Doing story quests on a new ungeared character (medium setting)
Doing overland with a friend.. If he's new, he could play on normal, while I apply the debuff and we could maybe feel the benefit of each others help..
Testing out endgame/pvp builds.

Sylvermynx

Biro123 wrote: »

drunkendx wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Dungeons and Dragon Online proved you right with reaper difficulty.

It was supposed to bring challenge to powerful players and instead it became meta where you could rarely find group if you did not wanna do reaper content.

It's why I don't want a vet zone, just an optional battle-spirit-like debuff (Of varying severities) that I can choose whether to apply to my character or not.
I wouldn't use it for farming, but would use it for the following:
Doing story quests on my main in a new zone/dlc (fairly hard setting)
Doing story quests on a new ungeared character (medium setting)
Doing overland with a friend.. If he's new, he could play on normal, while I apply the debuff and we could maybe feel the benefit of each others help..
Testing out endgame/pvp builds.

This sounds like the most sensible option of all. I have no idea how much work it would be to implement, though with battle spirit already working in Cyrodiil, you would think it wouldn't be out of reach.

Kiralyn2000

Iccotak wrote: »

Going to repeat what I've said in the past:

In our opinion: Story =/= Easy

Whereas I've not always connected "story" and "difficulty".

Honestly, in single player games I've done over the decades (CRPGs and JRPGs especially), 'difficulty' has frequently been the thing that gets in the way of the story for me. Big Dramatic Boss Fights in JRPGs aren't some anticipated high point, to go Woohoo, Yeah! after finishing - they're annoying roadblocks between me and getting back to the story.
(one big reason why I don't play any of the Boss Fight:The Game-style games out there - I've learned over time that I just don't enjoy 'boss fights'.)


Now, I'm sure there's multiple factors that contribute to this. Like, I'm not a l33t player, and I'm just not incredibly motivated become one, to 'perfect' my gameplay. Sure, there's some improvement & learning that happens, leading to greater success & skill - and that's cool. But I'm fine with 50-70% improvement, I'm not driven to push to 90% or 100%.
I'm not really Competitive, either. I'm not picturing it as Me Vs The Game, and that I Have To Beat It. (this surely contributes to the previous point, since that 'competitive drive' is probably a big part of that push to perfect your skill further.)


But, sure - different people are different. That's why there've been those various "gamer personality" studies (like ranking people in Killer/Socializer/Achiever/Explorer). This is easier to deal with in SP games, where you don't have to try to balance everything to appeal to everyone at the same time.


(in that old gamer personality thing, I rate high in Explorer, some in Achiever, very low in Socializer/Killer. Yeah, I totally avoid team-based pvp. )

Tandor

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

No, I'm not suggesting a level 30 gets level 32 gear.

At present, dropped gear scales to your level, being capped at CP160 based on encounters that some players are complaining are facepalmingly easy. By and large even when levelling alts through the overland content they have a lot of CPs, also of course when they are taking a maxed character through new DLC/Chapter content. What a lot of them say is that they want a much tougher encounter but that they also want gear commensurate to that increase in challenge - in other words, they want something significantly better than the standard scaled gear that would continue to drop for those not opting for the tougher mode which I call veteran mode. Veteran in this context is not a reference to past veteran levels, it's simply a term to distinguish the tougher challenge that players could opt for from the standard default encounters that other newer and more casual players would still pursue. That's where I think it becomes unbalanced because the proposal doesn't just introduce a greater level of challenge for those who want it, it also introduces a greater level of dropped gear for those choosing that option than currently exists in overland content, otherwise some of them they say there is no incentive to opt for the greater level of challenge. For some it's just about the challenge, for others it's also about the drops - and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game. That was my point.

I dont think I've actually seen anyone who wants a difficulty option ask for better loot. If they have, it's a minority. I don't think anybody is expecting to see cp180 gear from this - why would they? Vet dungeons and trials don't give that.
If it were to offer better loot (and I don't think it should), surely it would just be a slightly higher drop chance of better quality loot (blue vs green etc.), which, for farming would barely offset the additional time taken to kill the mobs.

A direct question. Do you have a problem with the suggestion to have an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that provides no better rewards? Aside from your belief that nobody wants that.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have never indicated that I believe nobody wants that. Nor, for that matter, have I ever mentioned CP180 gear.

I believe there is a case for finding a way for veteran players to be able to get more out of overland content in DLCs and Chapters, and it makes sense for that to be through some kind of optional difficulty setting. I don't believe the case is made out so strongly for that to be applied to all the existing overland content, as that is not designed for veteran players while new content is intended to be played by everyone.

Toxic_Hemlock

Craglorn was a big fail to all the casuals, I know I avoid it on all my alts. If they make every map as difficult as Craglorn they will lose one ESO+ subscriber and I'm sure I would not be alone in my decision.

If you want more difficult content do trials or vet dungeons naked just leave my casual playtime alone.

Thanks.

Edit:clarity

Biro123

Tandor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Make game harder: craft white gear then go quest. Seriously I don’t see the issue.

That's the thing though.. They don't want to, or they will claim that it is still too easy.. Just like how some of them claim that even with white trash gear, no cp and standing still, it is "impossible to die unless you really try to"

I agree, plus a lot (not all) of those claiming they want a greater challenge are really just after higher level loot from overland content which will totally change the balance of the game leveling up and in competitive content generally, or at the very least have said they wouldn't dream of opting for the veteran mode if they didn't get the veteran level drops commensurate with it. How fair would a duel be between two characters, one in trash gear from drops and quest rewards at the default level and the other in veteran gear from doing Khenarthi's Roost in veteran mode?

I still don't understand why you think this, and why you think it would unbalance anything. What do you mean by higher level loot? If I kill a mob at level 30 and it drops a set piece, are you saying we want it to be level 32? What's the point? I wouldn't be able to wear it, and would level out of it by 37.. How would that break anything and why would anyone want that? It would just clog up my inventory with stuff I can't use yet.

Who duels in trash gear and expects an even fight? Surely most duellers are maxed out PVPers already?

What do you mean by VETERAN gear? That used to be the equivalent of level 50 - CP160 gear. Nowadays its all just gear that matches your level. You can't wear higher, wearing lower is just a very temporary thing till hitting cp160 and crafting/farming/buying your first 'build', which doesn't take long at all.

Please, explain this.

No, I'm not suggesting a level 30 gets level 32 gear.

At present, dropped gear scales to your level, being capped at CP160 based on encounters that some players are complaining are facepalmingly easy. By and large even when levelling alts through the overland content they have a lot of CPs, also of course when they are taking a maxed character through new DLC/Chapter content. What a lot of them say is that they want a much tougher encounter but that they also want gear commensurate to that increase in challenge - in other words, they want something significantly better than the standard scaled gear that would continue to drop for those not opting for the tougher mode which I call veteran mode. Veteran in this context is not a reference to past veteran levels, it's simply a term to distinguish the tougher challenge that players could opt for from the standard default encounters that other newer and more casual players would still pursue. That's where I think it becomes unbalanced because the proposal doesn't just introduce a greater level of challenge for those who want it, it also introduces a greater level of dropped gear for those choosing that option than currently exists in overland content, otherwise some of them they say there is no incentive to opt for the greater level of challenge. For some it's just about the challenge, for others it's also about the drops - and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game. That was my point.

I dont think I've actually seen anyone who wants a difficulty option ask for better loot. If they have, it's a minority. I don't think anybody is expecting to see cp180 gear from this - why would they? Vet dungeons and trials don't give that.
If it were to offer better loot (and I don't think it should), surely it would just be a slightly higher drop chance of better quality loot (blue vs green etc.), which, for farming would barely offset the additional time taken to kill the mobs.

A direct question. Do you have a problem with the suggestion to have an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that provides no better rewards? Aside from your belief that nobody wants that.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have never indicated that I believe nobody wants that.

Apologies. I must have you mixed up with someone else who has very similar views on the subject.

Minyassa

No thank you. I feel accomplished enough after I've had to complete the difficult and arduous task of searching 50 different guild traders for something. If I had to hack and slash my way through mobs that took work to defeat every time I rode across the map to the next guild trader for a piece of furniture to decorate my house, which is what I would really rather be doing than *either* of these two things, I would just give up and find another game. Not everyone's in this for challenge, some people like it because it's got good stories and pretty graphics, and/or their friends are playing it, and it's more visual than reading a book but more participatory than watching tv.

the1andonlyskwex

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

drunkendx wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

In general, my problem with veteran modes is that almost inevitably they either become "mandatory" (because their rewards are so much better than normal mode), or nobody actually wants to play them (because they make grinding/questing too slow).

Dungeons and Dragon Online proved you right with reaper difficulty.

It was supposed to bring challenge to powerful players and instead it became meta where you could rarely find group if you did not wanna do reaper content.

It's why I don't want a vet zone, just an optional battle-spirit-like debuff (Of varying severities) that I can choose whether to apply to my character or not.
I wouldn't use it for farming, but would use it for the following:
Doing story quests on my main in a new zone/dlc (fairly hard setting)
Doing story quests on a new ungeared character (medium setting)
Doing overland with a friend.. If he's new, he could play on normal, while I apply the debuff and we could maybe feel the benefit of each others help..
Testing out endgame/pvp builds.

This sounds like the most sensible option of all. I have no idea how much work it would be to implement, though with battle spirit already working in Cyrodiil, you would think it wouldn't be out of reach.

It already does exist. Just swap from your gold trials gear to something like blue dungeon gear (or even all the way down to level 1, enchantless, traitless, non-set, white gear).

Biro123

Tandor wrote: »

Nor, for that matter, have I ever mentioned CP180 gear.

Is that not what you meant by this;

and once you increase the quality of the drops over and above the present CP160 capped gear in overland content that represents the major part of the game you change the present balance of the game

?
If not, then I'm afraid I still don't understand your concern over better rewards.

tomofhyrule

Biro123 wrote: »

A direct question. Do you have a problem with the suggestion to have an OPTIONAL difficulty setting that provides no better rewards? Aside from your belief that nobody wants that.

One of the problems with an optional difficulty mode is that it's essentially taking players away from the 'normal' mode, making the normal mode de facto harder.

Imagine that a zone can hold 100 players before it's instanced (I don't know what the actual number is, but let's just go with that). Some popular zones like the capital cities have several fragments in the first place, but underpopulated zones may only have enough players for one.

We'll assume we're in Northern Elsweyr after the event. A brand new player chooses Elsweyr from the portal in Balfiera and pops into Elsweyr, and gets their 'kill 3 dragons' quest. They're new, but they know that you can group up to kill dragons.

/z "can anyone help me kill the dragon in the southeast?"

If there are only 99 other people in zone, how many are answering that call? Especially since a lot of those players who see that message are just parked in Rimmen at the crafting stations for writs, and others won't move for a dragon besides the one right next to the Star Haven wayshrine.

Now imagine that we shard a 'normal' NElsweyr and a 'vet' NElsweyr. At that point, the crafters and the new players will stay in the normal, but anyone from the forum (which people here are claiming is basically anyone who had played longer than a week) will say "ooh, I can get one shot by Terror Birds, so I'm going there!" How many people are left in the 'newbie' zone to help the new player kill the dragon? Maybe you'll get a train of new players to go get it... none of whom know the mechanics so even a group of 10 newbies in no gear will get wasted.

What happens? The new player says "wow, dead game. Screw this." Or "I guess I need to go vet...?" and then they do and get oneshot by a Hackwing and say "Screw this." Net result: new players stop joining.

So yes, "we should have the option!" does have a hidden meaning of saying "we should be able to go to our special place and let the new players suffer alone!" Unless this hypothetical 'vet overland' has a mechanic to pull experienced players back to the normal one to help new players take down world events/world bosses/etc., it's still splitting the zones. And the new players probably need a bit more help to not quit outright than the vets need to not kill things in one blow. Experienced players know they can find harder content - we have two one-man arenas, many group dungeons are soloable (and they really should fix the ones that aren't like Direfrost or ICP to make it possible), etc. It's much easier for vets to find groups, using either the group finder or PUGs in Craglorn. New players don't have those resources yet, so it's a lot more to ask for a day-one player to be able to find a group of guildies ("what's a guild?") to take out a dragon or older DLC zone WB.

I think the best option would be a self debuff. I know a lot of people disagree with the idea of making the enemies sponges, but that's really the only way that you could do it without affecting other players. Maybe have it be something on the CP menu that replaces all 12 slots, so you're de facto going no CP, and then it's a damage done nerf and a taken increase.

---

Now as for me, I main a tank and I enjoy taking screenshots as I go. I don't want to have to fully switch my build just to dps through overland, and now with Companions I can even stay in my pYol as I'm questing. It's a huge QoL increase for players who play supports to not have to rebuild the character (new sets, weapons, morphs, CP...) between group content and overworld. Besides, the game is very heavily focused on DDs in the first place: I know I'll have a hard time getting through vVH on my current build because of the DPS check - nVH I timed to about 45-50 minutes a run when I was farming my awesome SnB. I'd really hate to have to spend 30+ minutes to do a single overland quest because I need to either rebuild my character or hack on a wolf with negligible DPS.

Besides, when I'm questing, I prefer to be storytelling in my head as well. Sure, many players see the end fight with Molag Bal and think 'omg that was not threatening.' I spent the last PTS cycle just rerunning that fight using no skills and jumping off a cliff to reset it. I was trying to get a perfect screenshot for my story rather than actually fight back. There's a lot of personal storytelling in this game already - "Who is Meridia?" is not exactly an appropriate question for a character who finished the main quest to ask in a later quest, so I'm already rewriting their lines in my head. It's not much more effort to have the actual fights be much more intense in my head either. I know I ended up with about two pages when I was writing my main's fight with Majorn (the vampire from the Eastmarch questline) and it borrowed a lot of elements from the fight against Lady Thorn. Sure, in game he went down easy. In my story, it wasn't clear he was coming out of that alive.