Add a separate Deathmatch queue for Battlegrounds!

Eevee_42

Deathmatch being the most popular mode is not even a contest. You can argue about statistics, proof, and screenshots until the end of time, but anybody who played battlegrounds on the regular before the solo queue era can attest to this. Those who prefer objective modes are very rarely actual pvp players due to the nature of these modes rewarding avoiding pvp.

Skoomah

Are you listening ZOS... or are you going to let the PVP in your game die off?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam

JobooAGS

I just don’t see what the issue with having a DM queue is? Let the players play what they want to play.

DrSlaughtr

Memories of 2 years ago and some screen caps aren't proof of anything. Scores are also misleading because DMs tend to last longer, ergo more points.

It's likely the most popular mode but that really doesn't change anything. I support going back to the old queue system.

It's also important to note how we got to this point. BGs can be very toxic, with full teams of griefers who aren't just there to win.

If it were up to me there would be a solo DM with no groups. That would be fun.

Bashev

Limiting the player options is bad choice in a game that promotes: play as you want.

The only way that this limitation receive more attention is if ZoS makes the dungeon queue solo random and group random without of dungeon choice. Then you will see how much rage will come.

The last 3 years I played mainly BGs, the other part of the game did not attract me. Cyro was fun but all the same and finding fights where the number is even is tiring. On top of that the campaigns do not matter. After no DM queue, I greatly reduced my playtime and I plan to move to another game.

Magio_

This is all a tangent anyway, it started with the argument of "population being too low for separate queues". Which is ZOS's fault for implementing Solo Queue as a "test" for way too long. I remember all the constant backlash on the forums. So many people quit back then. Getting people to try your game is hard, getting people to stay is harder. Getting people to come back after they've moved on is even harder. If we're really having a population problem, that just means ZOS brought back Group Queue a little too late and they need to do something about it. Not just say "not enough ppl playing it, we'll just let BGs die a slow painful death full of toxicity", because that is what they're doing right now.

Anyway, the reason we need specific queues is because DM players don't want to play objectives games and objective gamers don't want DMers in their matches. Neither side is happy and are toxic to each other all the time. This very thread and the others opened by both "sides" are proof enough that we need separate queues.

Imo, if a game mode dies because there is not enough population to support it, then so be it. The community has spoken. There is no point in keeping a certain game mode alive by forcing people to play it, who then don't even play it right.

I feel like some of the obj gamers here are against specific queues because deep down they know it's their queue that probably doesn't have the population necessary to keep it going. Remember, the "fragmented playerbase" argument against specific queues only works when you assume each queue will get an equal too low population that then none would pop. I highly doubt that is the case.

If population playing any BG mode is too low, that's also something ZOS has the power to change. Upping the rewards, even if temporary, while we get back a healthy population just makes sense. Why is that not something ZOS even thinks of doing? You really think more people wouldn't play if actual good stuff was rewarded?

I think dropping Solo Queue would be the best course of action. Go completely back to the old system from a few years ago. A lot of the complaints about premades were just people coping after going against better players anyway. People solo queueing would get accused of "being in a premade" all the time. This behavior was so prevalent, a lot of good players would get accused of being in a premade the first few weeks of Solo Only Queues being implemented by people that don't read patch notes. They had no idea it was impossible to premade, but they got beat badly, so it HAD TO be a premade...

With the system we have now, two full groups queueing to play each other have to wait ~20+ minutes for a match because there isn't a third full four man. Solo and duo queuers are being protected by the MMR System in the group queue. If that's not enough, then just increase the MMR multiplier for being in a trio/4-man. Long queues to pugstomp should deter people from 4 manning when there are no other 4 mans running. If they have LDE enough to power through the long queues to beat on solos, at least solos/duos will be protected for 2-3 matches before getting the 4 man.

Parasaurolophus

I think dropping Solo Queue would be the best course of action. Go completely back to the old system from a few years ago. A lot of the complaints about premades were just people coping after going against better players anyway. People solo queueing would get accused of "being in a premade" all the time. This behavior was so prevalent, a lot of good players would get accused of being in a premade the first few weeks of Solo Only Queues being implemented by people that don't read patch notes. They had no idea it was impossible to premade, but they got beat badly, so it HAD TO be a premade...

Of course, sometimes there are situations where one random group turns out to be stronger than the other random two. But the problem of premade groups was real and many of my friends pvp players noted this innovation with a solo queue as positive. They were mostly Cyrodiil players though. Still, I and many other BG players are happy with a separate solo queue.

Magio_

BrownChicken wrote: »

Of course, sometimes there are situations where one random group turns out to be stronger than the other random two.

There's almost no way for any one player to know whether the people that just beat them are in a group. Unless you know them and know they usually queue together, but even then sometimes I run into my duos by solo queueing. Like I said, the behavior of reeeeeeing at better players of winning "oNLy bEcaUsE yOu'Re iN a pReMaDe" was so prevalent, it kept happening even after it was impossible to group queue. And these are the people unstable enough to hate tell after they lost. There has to be people that thought the other team was "probably a premade", but weren't hate telling people about it. Would be a good idea to add some sort of marker in the scoreboard to stop these false accusations at the root, but that's a discussion for another thread.

BrownChicken wrote: »

But the problem of premade groups was real and many of my friends pvp players noted this innovation with a solo queue as positive. They were mostly Cyrodiil players though. Still, I and many other BG players are happy with a separate solo queue.

Did you not read what I said? The system does enough as is. Just had 25+ minute queue to face another 4 man we knew was queueing recently, because there wasn't a third 4 man. That's enough time for almost 2 full matches. Queue times for 4 mans are so bad even having multiple 4 mans for a BG tournament last night wasted so much time in queues that were 5+ minutes each WITH ALL 12 PEOPLE ACTIVELY TRYING TO GET INTO THE SAME MATCH. Even if you think that's not enough, I already suggested how to make it even more solo friendly by raising the MMR Multiplier for groups of 3 and 4 people to deter pugstomping. Do you actually believe that wouldn't be enough?

BrownChicken wrote: »

They were mostly Cyrodiil players though.

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like Battlegrounds shouldn't cater to Cyrodiil players' needs. I play BGs all day almost everyday and in my opinion Solo Queue is way less important than Specific Match Queues. I usually queue solo into the Group Random Queue because the Solo Queue is usually longer because there's less players in it anyway. If I run into a duo/group, I just try to get my own duo/group to fight whoever is grouping. Battlegrounds are a GroupvGroupvGroup arena. The fact that Cyrodiil players want to go in there to 1vX bots and get mad once they meet an organized duo/group or just better players in a noCP environment shouldn't mean we need to sacrifice letting people choose the mode they want to play.

Raeyleigh

BrownChicken wrote: »

I think dropping Solo Queue would be the best course of action. Go completely back to the old system from a few years ago. A lot of the complaints about premades were just people coping after going against better players anyway. People solo queueing would get accused of "being in a premade" all the time. This behavior was so prevalent, a lot of good players would get accused of being in a premade the first few weeks of Solo Only Queues being implemented by people that don't read patch notes. They had no idea it was impossible to premade, but they got beat badly, so it HAD TO be a premade...

Of course, sometimes there are situations where one random group turns out to be stronger than the other random two. But the problem of premade groups was real and many of my friends pvp players noted this innovation with a solo queue as positive. They were mostly Cyrodiil players though. Still, I and many other BG players are happy with a separate solo queue.

Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds are two entirely different things. If they noted the only solo queue as positive i am going to guess that they are 1vXers and wouldnt want to group up anyways. For them curb stomping noobs in soloq is a recreational substitude of 1vXing after getting zerged down in lagg for the 10th time straight. They want to 1vX and not play with a team against real oppisition, so its all good to them.

From experience i can say that soloq is no better than group queue. Its just not as obvious. When you get put into a lobsided match by matchmaking you often dont immediatly realize it and can just chalk it up to bad luck afterwards. When you face people who are likely coordinated premades while you get 3 potatoes on your team there are immediate targets for your frustration.

Nevertheless its a good thing that soloq exists. For the same reason that a dm queue needs to exist. So you can do what is fun for you and avoid what is not. And after all playing games is all about having fun.

Magio_

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds are two entirely different things. If they noted the only solo queue as positive i am going to guess that they are 1vXers and wouldnt want to group up anyways. For them curb stomping noobs in soloq is a recreational substitude of 1vXing after getting zerged down in lagg for the 10th time straight. They want to 1vX and not play with a team against real oppisition, so its all good to them.

That's what any BG veteran is thinking when reading that lol.

Raeyleigh wrote: »

From experience i can say that soloq is no better than group queue. Its just not as obvious. When you get put into a lobsided match by matchmaking you often dont immediatly realize it and can just chalk it up to bad luck afterwards. When you face people who are likely coordinated premades while you get 3 potatoes on your team there are immediate targets for your frustration.

I know of people who leave Solo Queue matches because they believed they accidentally queued for the Group Queue, just because the opposition wasn't a bunch of bots and people played off each other. Ofc, one of these was a well known Cyrodiil 1vXer. Any amount of teamwork is chalked up as people being sweaty groups in voice comms.

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Nevertheless its a good thing that soloq exists. For the same reason that a dm queue needs to exist. So you can do what is fun for you and avoid what is not. And after all playing games is all about having fun.

I completely agree with this, but if the argument of not having enough population is true, Specific Queues are more important than a Solo Queue in my opinion. I highly doubt these Cyrodiil 1vX Solo Queue Warriors play the objectives anyway and are probably ruining the matches for actual objective gamers.

Solo Queues can just be reimplemented once the population grows because everyone's happy being able to play their preferred game mode.

Eevee_42

Solo queue was the catalyst for killing BGs and decimating a large amount of the population. It still hasn’t recovered either due to a lack of a deathmatch option. In the past, “premades” were a convenient excuse for those who got beat by people who were simply better than them. Actual sweaty premades are not at all interested in fighting bot tier players that get farmed. There is a reason we are trying to organize tournaments and 4v4v4s (which is a massive pain on its own due to a lack of a lobby system, but that is a topic for another day).

As someone who plays in 4-mans fairly often, the queues are insanely long when there aren’t any other premades on. People who play solo will most likely not get in games versus these groups other than once in a blue moon. I wouldn’t be opposed to ZOS adding an MMR multiplier as suggested earlier to protect solo players further.

If BGs could go back to the way they were prior to the solo queue, that would be ideal. I have found myself playing much less often these days outside of organized pvp events/premades. It isn’t even fun solo/duo’ing into these objective game repeatedly.

BalticBlues

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

Bashev

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

@BalticBlues How I limit your game if I am able to queue to DM only and you can queue for all modes?

Arcanasx

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

Please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy deathmatch.

How would adding an extra option for deathmatch only limit the game for people who enjoy everything? They would still have the option to play objectives and deathmatch.

If you're worried about having longer queue times (even if they would become longer), so what. Many who prefer deathmatch would rather wait 15 minutes for a good deathmatch game than wait 10 minutes for a domination game that doesn't last 5 minutes because there's a few players who aren't actually interested in PvP; they avoid it and only go for undefended flags, and are only queueing for their daily completion rewards.

From what I'm seeing its mostly the players favoring objectives who want to hold the deathmatch players hostage so it can shorten their random queue that's 90% objective matches and that's incredibly selfish. Imagine if it were the other way around where there was a random only queue that was deathmatch 90% of the time and without the choice of choosing objective modes. I'm quite certain the objective players wouldn't be on the forums to oppose the idea of being able to select what type of match you want.

MurderMostFoul

Is there any rationale against this? ->

-Solo Objective (Daily Bonus Eligible)
-Group Deathmatch
-Solo Deathmatch

Clearly, if you want to queue as a group only for objective modes, this scheme won't help you, but the population that wants to do that must me borderline non-existent.

I think the population could support all three of these options.

-Solo Objective (Daily Bonus Eligible): Filled by the minority of players who prefer objective games and whoever is trying to get their daily bonus in.

-Group Deathmatch - Anyone who likes deathmatch and is trying to join as a group of 2, 3 or 4. (solos can join to if they want)

-Solo Deathmatch - For the deathmatch fans who aren't rolling with a party.

alberichtano

I have a better idea. Scrap deathmatches altogether. Maybe then more people will retorn to Imperial City.

alberichtano

Jameson18 wrote: »

I'm also all for adding a proper proportioned point contribution for kills no matter the game mode.

No. Very much no. Then every game would become deathmatch, meaning that only the "leet" would participate, and the rest of us wouldn't bother. The very point of not counting kills in the other modes is precisely so that smart but perhaps not too good gamers also have a chance to win once in a while.

Magio_

alberichtano wrote: »

I have a better idea.

You really don't.

alberichtano wrote: »

No. Very much no. Then every game would become deathmatch, meaning that only the "leet" would participate, and the rest of us wouldn't bother. The very point of not counting kills in the other modes is precisely so that smart but perhaps not too good gamers also have a chance to win once in a while.

The MMR system we have did a much better job at separating the "leet" gamers from the "not too good gamers" when we had specific queues than it does now.

Also, to be "leet" you already have to be "smart". Understanding the mechanics of the game's combat system, theorycrafting a build for your class and then executing combos against an enemy that reacts to your every move requires some thinking.

DMers enjoy constant brawling action in an enclosed environment with even numbers. So going to Cyrodiil or IC is not a half decent replacement for that. If you are smart, you know obj game modes promote avoiding engaging in PvP if you want to win.

We can't let these asinine attempts at derailing the thread make us forget the most important reason we need specific queues back: DM players don't want to play Objective Modes 80% of the time and Objective Gamers don't want DM players in their matches. We have seen enough threads opened by players on each camp.

DangOlMeatball

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam HULLO pls notice us.

Eevee_42

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

That’s easy for you to say if you enjoy objective games due to the massive odds of queueing into one. Just because YOU like things the way they are doesn’t mean everybody else should have their freedom to choose a game mode taken away.

Nobody is asking for limitations, in fact, we are asking for more options. If you “enjoy everything”, then there should not be any issue with most players wanting deathmatch and the random queue going back to the way it used to work, right? Let a game mode’s popularly speak for itself rather than having it forced down our throats.

Viewsfrom6ix

Another PTS natch potes, another day losing hope for DM queue.

OlumoGarbag

Bringing back DM que or at least some way of competitive battlegrounds that promote fights is the only way ill ever go back playing this game.

Amottica

Bashev wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

@BalticBlues How I limit your game if I am able to queue to DM only and you can queue for all modes?

The queue for DM was likely not a separate queue and drew on players who queued for a random BG. As such it would have drawn players into DMs. That means it takes only one person to command a DM match being formed and could be filled with as many as 11 players who requested a random BG.

I would take no issue if Zenimax offered a completely separate DM queue option that did not affect those who chose to join a random queue as we currently have. Based on many comments made in this thread this also seems to be ideal for those interested in a DM option as some have said they do not want to play with those interested in objective-based PvP.

I am pretty sure the person you quoted would agree.

Raeyleigh

Amottica wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

@BalticBlues How I limit your game if I am able to queue to DM only and you can queue for all modes?

The queue for DM was likely not a separate queue and drew on players who queued for a random BG. As such it would have drawn players into DMs. That means it takes only one person to command a DM match being formed and could be filled with as many as 11 players who requested a random BG.

As did the objective queue. Im not gonna write it twice, so here:

Raeyleigh wrote: »

DM leaderboards were far above and beyond objective modes, that is hard proof that far more people who activly queue for more than the daily prefered DM.
If there are, say, 5 people queueing for DM, 2 for landgrab and 1 for capture the flag, then far more people who queued for random will get filled into objective modes.
And in my anecdotal memory the chance to get a DM while queueing random was still easily around 75%.
Or in short the old system funneled far more players into objective modes than DM.

Queueing for objective modes specifically always worked fine and didnt have that much longer wait times than dm, thanks to said random queue.

Stop trying to take people hostage, none of us promotes that either.

Parasaurolophus

Eevee_42 wrote: »

Solo queue was the catalyst for killing BGs and decimating a large amount of the population. It still hasn’t recovered either due to a lack of a deathmatch option. In the past, “premades” were a convenient excuse for those who got beat by people who were simply better than them. Actual sweaty premades are not at all interested in fighting bot tier players that get farmed. There is a reason we are trying to organize tournaments and 4v4v4s (which is a massive pain on its own due to a lack of a lobby system, but that is a topic for another day).

As someone who plays in 4-mans fairly often, the queues are insanely long when there aren’t any other premades on. People who play solo will most likely not get in games versus these groups other than once in a blue moon. I wouldn’t be opposed to ZOS adding an MMR multiplier as suggested earlier to protect solo players further.

If BGs could go back to the way they were prior to the solo queue, that would be ideal. I have found myself playing much less often these days outside of organized pvp events/premades. It isn’t even fun solo/duo’ing into these objective game repeatedly.

No. This was a real problem that killed BG in its time. At some point, seeing once again that the pre-made teams were hitting, they simply refused to go down and wait to get their 6k ap. As many say, the premade queue is very long. Which confirms the fact that the population is very small. Alas. Perhaps the return of mode switching will bring back people's interest.

Eevee_42

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Eevee_42 wrote: »

Solo queue was the catalyst for killing BGs and decimating a large amount of the population. It still hasn’t recovered either due to a lack of a deathmatch option. In the past, “premades” were a convenient excuse for those who got beat by people who were simply better than them. Actual sweaty premades are not at all interested in fighting bot tier players that get farmed. There is a reason we are trying to organize tournaments and 4v4v4s (which is a massive pain on its own due to a lack of a lobby system, but that is a topic for another day).

As someone who plays in 4-mans fairly often, the queues are insanely long when there aren’t any other premades on. People who play solo will most likely not get in games versus these groups other than once in a blue moon. I wouldn’t be opposed to ZOS adding an MMR multiplier as suggested earlier to protect solo players further.

If BGs could go back to the way they were prior to the solo queue, that would be ideal. I have found myself playing much less often these days outside of organized pvp events/premades. It isn’t even fun solo/duo’ing into these objective game repeatedly.

No. This was a real problem that killed BG in its time. At some point, seeing once again that the pre-made teams were hitting, they simply refused to go down and wait to get their 6k ap. As many say, the premade queue is very long. Which confirms the fact that the population is very small. Alas. Perhaps the return of mode switching will bring back people's interest.

Read what I said again. Premade queues are long during the times when there aren’t 2 other groups on. This is not indicative of any population issue, but rather that the queue is working as intended by trying not to match 4-man groups against solo players.

This is merely speculation on my part, but being able to choose our game modes while merging the solo and group queue together again will bring back a lot of people who are only interested in deathmatch (which is most pvp players) and will therefore create a healthier population. Like I said, the game already seems to be punishing premades with long wait times when no other groups are in the queue, so this should discourage pug stomping.

Bashev

Amottica wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

@BalticBlues How I limit your game if I am able to queue to DM only and you can queue for all modes?

The queue for DM was likely not a separate queue and drew on players who queued for a random BG. As such it would have drawn players into DMs. That means it takes only one person to command a DM match being formed and could be filled with as many as 11 players who requested a random BG.

I would take no issue if Zenimax offered a completely separate DM queue option that did not affect those who chose to join a random queue as we currently have. Based on many comments made in this thread this also seems to be ideal for those interested in a DM option as some have said they do not want to play with those interested in objective-based PvP.

I am pretty sure the person you quoted would agree.

@Amottica then you can queue only for the objectives modes as I am queueing only for the DM. Again back to the question, how can I limit your game?

tonyblack

As a solo player mostly I enjoyed bgs the most when group queue was removed entirely. Fast matchmaking, game mode choices and fair matches were main reasons i played battlegrounds more than now. Bringing group queue back by making it default thus dividing population further was an odd choice. Quality of opponents in group queue led me to believe that it’s populated mostly by solo players who don’t even know solo queue exist, while solo queue is mostly same people over and over. Getting same game mode several times in a row is not fun either. Instead of playing 4 dominations or 4 dm in a row i would rather pick the mode i want and wait longer. In my opinion perfect solution would be making solo queue default and adding option to choose mode for both solo and group. That way solo queue would be filled with players of different preferences and group queue would be an option for those who wants to queue there intentionally and not to lure unaware noobs.

Parasaurolophus

tonyblack wrote: »

As a solo player mostly I enjoyed bgs the most when group queue was removed entirely. Fast matchmaking, game mode choices and fair matches were main reasons i played battlegrounds more than now. Bringing group queue back by making it default thus dividing population further was an odd choice. Quality of opponents in group queue led me to believe that it’s populated mostly by solo players who don’t even know solo queue exist, while solo queue is mostly same people over and over. Getting same game mode several times in a row is not fun either. Instead of playing 4 dominations or 4 dm in a row i would rather pick the mode i want and wait longer. In my opinion perfect solution would be making solo queue default and adding option to choose mode for both solo and group. That way solo queue would be filled with players of different preferences and group queue would be an option for those who wants to queue there intentionally and not to lure unaware noobs.

I also often notice that the skill of the players in the group queue is much lower than in the single queue. Also, I very rarely meet with premade`s, although the queue exists primarily for them.

BalticBlues

BalticBlues wrote: »

I really like how the system works NOW.

Premades can play against other premades - great.
Solo players can play against other solo players - great.
People can play and enjoy ALL modes - great.

Who cannot enjoy all modes and only enjoys Deathmatch - I am sorry for you.
However, please do not insist to limit the game for people who enjoy everything.

Bashev wrote: »

@BalticBlues How I limit your game if I am able to queue to DM only and you can queue for all modes?

An extra DM queue would limit the game because it would split the population.
Probably to a point where waiting times for other modes could become so long that people would not play them anymore.

tonyblack wrote: »

As a solo player mostly I enjoyed bgs the most when group queue was removed entirely. Fast matchmaking, game mode choices and fair matches were main reasons i played battlegrounds more than now.

I could agree to this. As I see it, we can either have a premade queue, as it is now, OR an extra DM game mode queue. Because each queue splits the BG population a bit more - so that waiting times will get too long if there are too many queues.

Myself, I will always prefer small waiting times. So even though I prefer the Objetive modes, I do not mind playing a DM game once in a while (even though the most powerful team then just harvests the team having only 3 players in the beginning - a questionable game design which IMHO is braking DM mode). To keep small waiting times, I therefore could support a solo DM queue only if the Premades queue would be removed for this. However, I still think that the Premades groups is more important to enable playing with friends than an extra DM queue would be.