Lyranth's statement on the Aedra

PrayingSeraph

So I read the recent Loremasters Archive with Lyranth where she states the following two answers to two different questions:

"Mundus, however, submits to the predictable influence of the et’Ada’s remains, but retains the stubborn caprice of the Liar. That makes it … doughy. Flatten a mortal’s vain little castle, and it remains flattened. But never for long. Soon, some other mortal with narrow aspirations builds another castle all on their own. I respect the lost et’Ada’s foolish attempt at creation. It’s tragic that they will never fully understand what a delightful playground they created for those of us who remain undiminished."

"Rather than pondering the stars’ alleged role in Dagon’s birth, you might consider their other failures. Is there anything so low as a Magna Ge? Say what you will about Mundus’s creators—at least they displayed conviction. What greater exercise of will exists than to die in pursuit of an impossible goal? But not the star-whelps and their cowardly sovereign. When matters turned dire, they simply fled! We will never know what might have been achieved had Magnus and his legions remained to finish their work. If they did have some hand in Dagon’s emergence, is it any wonder that he embodies destruction?"

Is Lyranth referring to death in this context as the Aedra sacrificing their physical forms? I get that death is the loss of the physical body, but the Aedra are still very much existant. The Divines have played direct influence into Mundus long after their "death", they answer certain prayers, they have sent avatars and in ESO, we meet a few Elnofey into Glenumbra. Yffre to is heavily implied to be active and alive, even his unpleasant afterlife Ooze is real for Bosmer who violate the green.

The only TES deity I'm aware of to be truly or fully dead is Lorkhan. As in, he doesn't exist anymore.

Does Lyranth know this or is she simply referring to death of the physical forms of the Aedra during creation? I suppose when she says they will never "fully understand" implies that they have an understanding(therefore conciousness), but don't "fully" understand which is Lyranth thinking aedric understanding as below Daedric understanding.

Is my understanding here correct?

Source:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/60037

Vevvev

The Aedra are as close to death as they can get. Still enough power to retain their immortality and aid mortals with a boon or blessing, but too weak to really truly do anything. They used to walk Nirn after it's creation, but steadily over time they've seem to have gone into a sort of coma. Who they are as people is greatly influenced by their children alive on Nirn, and sometimes one group will try to force their version of who they are onto them. This happened in the first era with the Imperial Cult trying to turn Auri'El into Akatosh by stripping all elvish influences from him. Created the first recorded Dragon Break.

RaddlemanNumber7

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

PrayingSeraph

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

That's interesting. Is this more theory or fact? I have never come across this interpretation before or read anything in game about Divines sacrificing their individuality to Lorkhan. Not that there is anything wrong with theories of course, *especially* with TES. Few things with TES mythology are straight forward afterall. I'm just curious what your source is

Also, the aedra seem to have links or power over some souls and afterlife. Given the Ooze and if I remember correctly, there is a side quest in ESO where Mara allows a deceased lover appear on Nirn once again to bring her newly freed lover(who was trapped on Nirn for a long time) back with her to Aetherius. The quest was freeing a npc(orc I think) from a trap that held him for I think hundreds of years, while his lover passed away from old age. I'm trying to find the quest name.

PrayingSeraph

Vevvev wrote: »

The Aedra are as close to death as they can get. Still enough power to retain their immortality and aid mortals with a boon or blessing, but too weak to really truly do anything. They used to walk Nirn after it's creation, but steadily over time they've seem to have gone into a sort of coma. Who they are as people is greatly influenced by their children alive on Nirn, and sometimes one group will try to force their version of who they are onto them. This happened in the first era with the Imperial Cult trying to turn Auri'El into Akatosh by stripping all elvish influences from him. Created the first recorded Dragon Break.

I wouldn't say they are to weak to truly do anything, given their actions post-mundus creation. Post walking on nirn as well.

But I guess my point is this. When the body dies, the soul persists(in TES and according to most real life religions). Existence is not defined by physicality alone.

The Aedra exist still in conciousness and spirit, and arguably are more powerful than some real life pagan mythology deities. Loss or lack of physical form often has no bearing on whether something is a deity(and one that's still active) in comparative mythology. Just to use an example, the world's largest religion is based on the idea that God "died". But in said religion, God lost physicality but still very well existed after the loss of body.

RaddlemanNumber7

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

That's interesting. Is this more theory or fact? I have never come across this interpretation before or read anything in game about Divines sacrificing their individuality to Lorkhan. Not that there is anything wrong with theories of course, *especially* with TES. Few things with TES mythology are straight forward afterall. I'm just curious what your source is

Off the top of my head, the most explicit example I can think of is this one:

The transcendent Lorkhan has many pseudonyms, as well as many faces. One of them is the Void Ghost...

Vivec’s 37th Sermon:
[…] the tower, where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum, imbecile in its rhythm. And he [Vivec] asked of it, "Who are you, that need no signature at all?"

A drum made of a dragon skin. A drum is an empty skin. Akatosh is an empty skin. In the time of ESO Akatosh is merely an instrument played by the Void Ghost.

PrayingSeraph

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

That's interesting. Is this more theory or fact? I have never come across this interpretation before or read anything in game about Divines sacrificing their individuality to Lorkhan. Not that there is anything wrong with theories of course, *especially* with TES. Few things with TES mythology are straight forward afterall. I'm just curious what your source is

Off the top of my head, the most explicit example I can think of is this one:

The transcendent Lorkhan has many pseudonyms, as well as many faces. One of them is the Void Ghost...

Vivec’s 37th Sermon:
[…] the tower, where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum, imbecile in its rhythm. And he [Vivec] asked of it, "Who are you, that need no signature at all?"

A drum made of a dragon skin. A drum is an empty skin. Akatosh is an empty skin. In the time of ESO Akatosh is merely an instrument played by the Void Ghost.

Isn't the void ghost being Lorkhan from post Bethesda MK writings? I don't think there is a canon source for it, though correct me if I'm wrong on that. If I remember correctly, MK stated that the Void ghost is a conciousness of Lorkhan that resides in the Serpent constellation. However this was all post Bethesda fanon(which I'm not trying to imply fanon as a bad thing, it's not, it's just not canon).

Even so...it seems a bit of a stretch to assume the aedra have somehow been high jacked by Lorkhan based on vague writings of Vivec(a known deceiver who falsely props himself a god) . We know the Aedra and the the Earthbones(or atleast some) still lack conciousness and when we speak to 3 of them in ESO, I don't think they are high jacked puppets of Lorkhan.

Not to sound ungrateful to your reply of course! I appreciate the source. Do you have any others by any chance?

RaddlemanNumber7

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

That's interesting. Is this more theory or fact? I have never come across this interpretation before or read anything in game about Divines sacrificing their individuality to Lorkhan. Not that there is anything wrong with theories of course, *especially* with TES. Few things with TES mythology are straight forward afterall. I'm just curious what your source is

Off the top of my head, the most explicit example I can think of is this one:

The transcendent Lorkhan has many pseudonyms, as well as many faces. One of them is the Void Ghost...

Vivec’s 37th Sermon:
[…] the tower, where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum, imbecile in its rhythm. And he [Vivec] asked of it, "Who are you, that need no signature at all?"

A drum made of a dragon skin. A drum is an empty skin. Akatosh is an empty skin. In the time of ESO Akatosh is merely an instrument played by the Void Ghost.

Isn't the void ghost being Lorkhan from post Bethesda MK writings? I don't think there is a canon source for it, though correct me if I'm wrong on that. If I remember correctly, MK stated that the Void ghost is a conciousness of Lorkhan that resides in the Serpent constellation. However this was all post Bethesda fanon(which I'm not trying to imply fanon as a bad thing, it's not, it's just not canon).

Even so...it seems a bit of a stretch to assume the aedra have somehow been high jacked by Lorkhan based on vague writings of Vivec(a known deceiver who falsely props himself a god) . We know the Aedra and the the Earthbones(or atleast some) still lack conciousness and when we speak to 3 of them in ESO, I don't think they are high jacked puppets of Lorkhan.

Not to sound ungrateful to your reply of course! I appreciate the source. Do you have any others by any chance?

There are lots of mentions of the dead Divines in ESO, including in dialogue, but no sources I can think of that are more knowing than Lyranth and Vivec.

To believe or disbelieve them is your choice.

PrayingSeraph

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

This is my understanding. Others may differ...

What Lyranth says in those two paragraphs is largely correct, and astoundingly clear and comprehensive by TES Lore standards. As to your questions...

Lorkhan is the archetype of mortals. Lorkhan died a mortal death. The sundered bits of his dead body, animus and memory became parts of the world, like any mortal remains. His spirit tho', the essence of his consciousness, his individuality, remained intact and extant after death (ordinary mortals have this bit too, it's the essential thing that makes mortals mortals).

The "death" experienced by the divines was the polar opposite of mortal death. The divines "died" by surrendering their individuality to Lorkhan. Their "physical" portions persisted, functionally intact, including their animi. The earthbones we meet are manifestations of some of those animi.

In the second era Lorkhan is the one god with many faces. The Divines are some of those faces. Lorkhan is "the Missing God" partly because he is hidden by a veil of ineffability (and moths).

The TES world is an Arena in which mortals can strive to pass Lorkhan's test. That's probably the only bit that Lyranth does not fully comprehend. It's creation was not a failure. It's meant to be a playground, a sand pit. It's mean to go around in cycles. It's all designed for the sake of mortals. Lyranth's daedric pride may prevent her from accepting that, or she may just not be allowed to see Lorkhan's ineffable purpose.

That's interesting. Is this more theory or fact? I have never come across this interpretation before or read anything in game about Divines sacrificing their individuality to Lorkhan. Not that there is anything wrong with theories of course, *especially* with TES. Few things with TES mythology are straight forward afterall. I'm just curious what your source is

Off the top of my head, the most explicit example I can think of is this one:

The transcendent Lorkhan has many pseudonyms, as well as many faces. One of them is the Void Ghost...

Vivec’s 37th Sermon:
[…] the tower, where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum, imbecile in its rhythm. And he [Vivec] asked of it, "Who are you, that need no signature at all?"

A drum made of a dragon skin. A drum is an empty skin. Akatosh is an empty skin. In the time of ESO Akatosh is merely an instrument played by the Void Ghost.

Isn't the void ghost being Lorkhan from post Bethesda MK writings? I don't think there is a canon source for it, though correct me if I'm wrong on that. If I remember correctly, MK stated that the Void ghost is a conciousness of Lorkhan that resides in the Serpent constellation. However this was all post Bethesda fanon(which I'm not trying to imply fanon as a bad thing, it's not, it's just not canon).

Even so...it seems a bit of a stretch to assume the aedra have somehow been high jacked by Lorkhan based on vague writings of Vivec(a known deceiver who falsely props himself a god) . We know the Aedra and the the Earthbones(or atleast some) still lack conciousness and when we speak to 3 of them in ESO, I don't think they are high jacked puppets of Lorkhan.

Not to sound ungrateful to your reply of course! I appreciate the source. Do you have any others by any chance?

There are lots of mentions of the dead Divines in ESO, including in dialogue, but no sources I can think of that are more knowing than Lyranth and Vivec.

To believe or disbelieve them is your choice.

My apologies for my late reply. Life has been busy lately.

The divines are "dead" but only in the physical sense. They sacrificed their bodies, their physical form and much of their power. But they their will, conciousness and some power still lives on, as deities. Several appear as avatars during certain periods.

So with the quote of Vivec's, which I'll be honest I'm not sure i'd say it suggests Lorkhan is controlling Akatosh(*maybe* manipulate if we go by that interpreation), that verse from Vivec doesn't deal with the vast majority of Aedra, be it the other 7 divines, the elnofey or the othe Aedric deities present in the numerous mythologies. In your original reply you suggested that Lorkhan has many faces and the divines are some of those faces...but im not seeing that given the source you posted is a vague poetry by Vivec that may or may not suggest Lorkhan is manipulating Akatosh(and only Akatosh). Not to mention, the verse referring to the Void ghost as "Imbecile to it's rhythm" suggests its not in control but is being controlled by the rhythem. Regarding the "who are you" line, to quote an analysis from Teslore, "In music, there's something called a time signature. It's basically the rhythm, the pace and flow of the music. Vivec is asking the Void Ghost, what makes you think you can exist apart from Akatosh, from Time, to go against the natural order of things?"


To be fair, you did mention and start off that this is your interpretation, so this response certainly isnt meant to come off as an attack

Correct me if im wrong, but Jone and Jode as deities are essentially confirmed to be conscious deities(that have a will and agenda) in the Elseweyr/Khajiit storylines in ESO. And if I remember correctly, Z'en which is basically Bosmeri interpretation of Zentihar sends his emmisary in ESO where said spirit explicietly mentions Zenithar's will and how he has chosen to turn his back on the world until the scales tip once again. Side quest "The Oldest Orc"" features a spirit coming back to take her orc lover, according to her, "By the grace of Mara, I've been allowed to take you beyond this mortal realm".

Also, isn't it a common theory that whatever remains of Lorkhan(him being truly dead seems heavily debated) Lorkhan was mantled by Talos?