What is the performance issue? It's this simple

HanStolo

When you went no proc, the ball grps stopped playing for a long time. The performance was really amazing. Lately, they are back and its a laggy, de-sync'd mess when they are on.

Greasytengu

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

xylena_lazarow

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

Amottica

One post here indicated the issue with organized groups, which seems to be what people call ball groups, is that players try to take them on without any organization themselves. That would seem to be a challenging way of doing things.

So the question is, why not try to organize players? Consoles have VOIP and PC has Discord for voice communication. I expect there are many who can lead a group well.

SirAndy

HanStolo wrote: »

It's this simple

no

xylena_lazarow

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

It would also mean fights end before the server melts down, and there can be other battles on the map. There's way too much damn healing at every level and scale of PvP.

techyeshic

I know they said performance didn't get better without cross healing outside groups,but I say it got worse when they undid that. I'd rather have 12 organized players spamming heals on each other over 24 or a faction stack doing it

Ackwalan

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

We perhaps have different ideas of stack. I'm referring to 'Faction Stacks' bombers cannot simply kill a faction stack unless they are all together on a transit after having already captured the keep.

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

We perhaps have different ideas of stack. I'm referring to 'Faction Stacks' bombers cannot simply kill a faction stack unless they are all together on a transit after having already captured the keep.

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

And yet, in a ball group, I hope for a faction stack. I take back keeps to draw a zerg. They are two sides of the same coin, the zerg and the ball group.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

We perhaps have different ideas of stack. I'm referring to 'Faction Stacks' bombers cannot simply kill a faction stack unless they are all together on a transit after having already captured the keep.

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

And yet, in a ball group, I hope for a faction stack. I take back keeps to draw a zerg. They are two sides of the same coin, the zerg and the ball group.

It doesn't really feel like you play in ball groups recently if thats what you think.
The aim is to split up the enemy faction to reduce lag on the server. Sure you still want a sizable enemy force to fight but if you fight a faction stack you will just lag out and die unless the situation is extremely favourable or the enemies are VVery bad. (or ofc if one is in your own faction stack as an organised group)

DTStormfox

Wait for that patch where they scale proc sets from stats.
Which will require even more calculations on both client-side and serverside. Which in turn will make the performance even worse for you if it already is bad.

techyeshic

DTStormfox wrote: »

Wait for that patch where they scale proc sets from stats.
Which will require even more calculations on both client-side and serverside. Which in turn will make the performance even worse for you if it already is bad.

I'm waiting for any evidence all these calculation tests provide that calculations have significantly impacted anything

Ranger209

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

We perhaps have different ideas of stack. I'm referring to 'Faction Stacks' bombers cannot simply kill a faction stack unless they are all together on a transit after having already captured the keep.

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

And yet, in a ball group, I hope for a faction stack. I take back keeps to draw a zerg. They are two sides of the same coin, the zerg and the ball group.

It doesn't really feel like you play in ball groups recently if thats what you think.
The aim is to split up the enemy faction to reduce lag on the server. Sure you still want a sizable enemy force to fight but if you fight a faction stack you will just lag out and die unless the situation is extremely favourable or the enemies are VVery bad. (or ofc if one is in your own faction stack as an organised group)

Izzy I have nothing but respect for you, and the way you express yourself on the forums. So many things you say are for the betterment of the game as a whole, and not driven by a desire for personal gain. At the same time I am part of the anti-ball crowd, not to the point of obliterating the playstyle, but to the point of reeling in the aggregate power that ball groups can achieve. On this topic we disagree.

While the aim may be to split up the enemy faction, which may happen for a short while, the end result because of how hard groups like yours are to dispatch, is to draw the faction stack to you over time. The longer you hold a point of interest the more the stack comes to you. If groups like yours could be dealt with by 30 unorganized people what you are saying might actually work. Unfortunately it takes more like 60 people to get the job done with groups like yours. Drac is the best ball on pcNA so yours is not typical of all ball groups. But the problem remains that the power delta is too wide between ball groups and the unorganized, and in the end the faction stack must come to you in order to deal with you. If we could get to the point that 30 people could take care of ball groups the factions stacks could dwindle, and the server stress could be reduced.

Unfortunately the stack has become a habit, and now will require even more time for that playstyle to fade away, if and when ball group power is reeled in.

ks888

How I see it:

When the performance started to really, REALLY suffer 2 years ago - we lost a ton of organized guilds.
Losing those organized groups seemed to cause the number of fights happening on the map at any one time to drop. It was not out of the ordinary to see several keeps or outposts at a time with cross-swords near them in the early days. Today, it seems like there is only ever 3-4 medium to large-sized fights going on at any given time. So instead of multiple fights spread out through the map, we have the entire population of Cyrodiil condensed to a few places.

For example, think back to Wabbajack or Thornblade days: 10-15 players fighting at BRK, 8 or so at Sej, 15 at Bleakers, 12 Nikel, 20 at Fare - more fights occurring at the same time. Fast forward to the average 7 pm EST on GreyHost today, 40+ players at Alesw and 40+ players at Ash or Nikel. No one is spread out. All skills being cast are occurring in 1-3 locations on the entire map.

Yet we wonder where the lag comes from... It's not from 1 guild or group at one keep. The "will my skills fire this time?" moments are happening when the majority of players are stacking one spot. It may not be at the keep you're fighting at, but if a 40 vs 40 fight is happening somewhere on the map while you're in that fight, you're screwed.

Those types of fights were reserved for an emp dethrone or scroll defense - i.e. less common events. Now, that's just how you defend your frontline. There are no spread-out fights anymore. Spread out for a change. Get rid of the faction locks so players can help balance the map. ZOS clearly isn't going to fix it anytime soon, but we can try to improve the experience by keeping campaigns competitive and spreading the heck out. Stacking makes the lag worse fam.

xylena_lazarow

ks888 wrote: »

if a 40 vs 40 fight is happening somewhere on the map while you're in that fight, you're screwed. Those types of fights were reserved for an emp dethrone or scroll defense - i.e. less common events. Now, that's just how you defend your frontline.

40v40 doesn't end, you need to lag the server out 80v40 to actually win (because of all the damn healing), plus the fact that casual PvPers have zero chance if they dare leave the faction zerg.

Jaraal

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

The lag began when ZOS moved most calculations server side and started routing all incoming data to a remote DDoS server for filtering. Before that happened the "faction stacks", which were larger due to the higher population caps, didn't cause the lag present today.

Also the worst lag I personally encounter in Cyrodiil is when capping a resource solo in prime time, while there are many ball groups operating all over the map. I'm nowhere near any other players, but due to the above mentioned changes combined with the total amount of server calls, sometimes my skills won't fire, I can't bar swap, or use my weapons.

Blaming the players for performance issues that are actually caused by ZOS's programming choices is wrong.

HanStolo

Shortly after the no proc change, I was in some really big zergy keep fights and the lag was non-existent. The server performance was the best it had been in 2 years without a doubt. As the ball grps returned, the performance got worse when they were on. There is a big difference in performance when there is a huge fight as opposed to a huge fight where one ball grp is present. If there is two, it's completely unplayable.

Look I don't know why this is the case but personally, the performance is way better when they are not on. It's been proven to me over and over. They need to fix their game, obviously because these cheeseball players aren't going to stop their cheeseball ways.

Joy_Division

The ball groups didn't leave. Performance still sucked. Yes it would be nice if they fixed their game. No, they won't because they don't even have a PvP developer.

Sandman929

Ranger209 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

there was literally no change in performance, if anything it got worse since more people are stacking up into ever growing zergs now that VD isn't there to break them up.

It doesn't break them up, because if it takes 60+ pugs to wipe an optimized 12-man, guess what the pugs are gonna do. The floor/ceiling gap for large scale PvP is out of control, not because of AoE bombs but because an optimized 12-man can become functionally invincible when facing only the random noise damage of disorganized pugs.

You wanna stop the stacking? PvP healing gets gutted. No more 12 guys each with 12 stacks of RR, no more insta healing from execute to full, no more incidental ally healing stapled to your self heals... players gotta die.

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

If healing didn't stack, bombers would kill those groups. People would quickly learn to avoid standing to close to allies. Groups would become smaller and more spread out. With groups spread out there (might) would be less lag.

We perhaps have different ideas of stack. I'm referring to 'Faction Stacks' bombers cannot simply kill a faction stack unless they are all together on a transit after having already captured the keep.

The lag caused by Faction Stacks is what causes 90% of all server issues so encouraging them isn't something which should be acceptable by anyone.

And yet, in a ball group, I hope for a faction stack. I take back keeps to draw a zerg. They are two sides of the same coin, the zerg and the ball group.

It doesn't really feel like you play in ball groups recently if thats what you think.
The aim is to split up the enemy faction to reduce lag on the server. Sure you still want a sizable enemy force to fight but if you fight a faction stack you will just lag out and die unless the situation is extremely favourable or the enemies are VVery bad. (or ofc if one is in your own faction stack as an organised group)

Izzy I have nothing but respect for you, and the way you express yourself on the forums. So many things you say are for the betterment of the game as a whole, and not driven by a desire for personal gain. At the same time I am part of the anti-ball crowd, not to the point of obliterating the playstyle, but to the point of reeling in the aggregate power that ball groups can achieve. On this topic we disagree.

While the aim may be to split up the enemy faction, which may happen for a short while, the end result because of how hard groups like yours are to dispatch, is to draw the faction stack to you over time. The longer you hold a point of interest the more the stack comes to you. If groups like yours could be dealt with by 30 unorganized people what you are saying might actually work. Unfortunately it takes more like 60 people to get the job done with groups like yours. Drac is the best ball on pcNA so yours is not typical of all ball groups. But the problem remains that the power delta is too wide between ball groups and the unorganized, and in the end the faction stack must come to you in order to deal with you. If we could get to the point that 30 people could take care of ball groups the factions stacks could dwindle, and the server stress could be reduced.

Unfortunately the stack has become a habit, and now will require even more time for that playstyle to fade away, if and when ball group power is reeled in.

This is what I'm saying. The balance is shifted too far in favor of a good group and the choice has become ignore them or faction stack them. Most of the time I see the latter.
I love organized group play, but it's completely imbalanced for reasons I've stated over and over again. I refuse to pitch a lie that I do it to break off a reasonable chunk of players because a reasonable chunk, disorganized, isn't going to put up a fight.
The ball group kills the zerg, and the zerg eventually kills the ball group. What do I do in a ball group without a zerg? How can I claim I want zerging reduced when they're what I'm looking to fight? That would be totally disingenuous.
I don't think the balance should be tilted so far in favor of organized groups that it takes a faction to defeat them. Thats just moving the zerg around, not doing anything to break it up.

xDeusEJRx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This would actually make players stack more as the more numbers you have the easier it is to kill enemies and recover from being killed.

It would also mean fights end before the server melts down, and there can be other battles on the map. There's way too much damn healing at every level and scale of PvP.

That would have more implications to it though. Healing is one way to counter/lessen incoming damage. Another being blocking or having higher resistances. If you gut healing, what people will then do is just make their characters beefier, meaning more resistances or HP to make up for crap healing, which means that a tank meta is imminent because resistances would be the only viable way to counter damage. (blocking isn't viable because you can only block so many attacks before your stamina is gone, especially when fighting multiple people). People are just gonna build tanky to work around that. I think healing meta is better than a tank meta, at least resources drain fast and you can kill someone if they waste all their resources healing/blocking. Resistances just makes it so they survive better and they have to waste less time & resources keeping self heals going

L_Nici

Proof is given currently in Cyro, its awful. Procs returned the lag is insane, you can't fight range, because everyone seems to be out of range always, you can't fight melee everything seems to be out of range always, you can't break free just because the server doesn't care, even dodging doesn't work on time. Overall everything is delayed except the Procs of course, they once more hit reliable as ever.

NotTaylorSwift

HanStolo wrote: »

Shortly after the no proc change, I was in some really big zergy keep fights and the lag was non-existent. The server performance was the best it had been in 2 years without a doubt. As the ball grps returned, the performance got worse when they were on. There is a big difference in performance when there is a huge fight as opposed to a huge fight where one ball grp is present. If there is two, it's completely unplayable.

Look I don't know why this is the case but personally, the performance is way better when they are not on. It's been proven to me over and over. They need to fix their game, obviously because these cheeseball players aren't going to stop their cheeseball ways.

Performance is literally no different when ball groups are raiding and when they are not...

We raided today (a ballgroup) on Ravenwatch eu from around 19:30-20:30 Cest. Performance was mostly perfect, probably because the population was low. Ep locked, Ad 2 bar, Dc 3 bar. But there was still a ballgroup active and it wasn't laggy at all so it's clearly not the main problem.

Your last sentence just shows that you have something personal against ballgroups and ballgroup players, so you choose to blame them. Like most people who blame them.

ks888

To clarify - not blaming players because we're doing the best we can with the crappy performance ZOS has given us. Just making an observation on the current status and contributing factors. The lag will be ever-present until ZOS actually cares about PvP. Funny thing that the 3 banners war and Cyrodiil is in the Blackwood cinematic, but any new players coming into PvP are going to be turned off by the lag. So one again, way to go ZOS I guess.

Vizirith

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

HanStolo wrote: »

Shortly after the no proc change, I was in some really big zergy keep fights and the lag was non-existent. The server performance was the best it had been in 2 years without a doubt. As the ball grps returned, the performance got worse when they were on. There is a big difference in performance when there is a huge fight as opposed to a huge fight where one ball grp is present. If there is two, it's completely unplayable.

Look I don't know why this is the case but personally, the performance is way better when they are not on. It's been proven to me over and over. They need to fix their game, obviously because these cheeseball players aren't going to stop their cheeseball ways.

Performance is literally no different when ball groups are raiding and when they are not...

We raided today (a ballgroup) on Ravenwatch eu from around 19:30-20:30 Cest. Performance was mostly perfect, probably because the population was low. Ep locked, Ad 2 bar, Dc 3 bar. But there was still a ballgroup active and it wasn't laggy at all so it's clearly not the main problem.

Your last sentence just shows that you have something personal against ballgroups and ballgroup players, so you choose to blame them. Like most people who blame them.

1 ball group will not stress the servers much. That was a terrible anecdote. There is still a performance hit no doubt, how much is the question. If there is nobody on the server besides 3 ball groups, guess what, lag won't be bad. By that same anecdotal evidence I can say that I can predict when a ball group on the other side of the map makes contact with enemies with nigh 100% accuracy based on the lag spikes. If ping was at 50 before you guys came and then it spiked up to 80 when you guys are fighting, that is a significant increase in lag for 12 or so people. It does not automatically become laggy with 1 ball group because then the game would just break literally every primetime.

It is abundantly obvious that any players that run alot of aoe's will cause more server issues. Is that even up for debate? Radiating regen is almost 4x more server calculations *than vigor*, not including sanctuary set or the increase in calculations if you are a templar or warden healer. Dswing is literally just my outgoing dmg calculations and your defensive calculations. An aoe that hits 3 people is my outgoing dmg calculations and 3 people's incoming defensive calculations.

Edit: *than vigor*

Vizirith

EDIT: Quoted by accident

Well there are fundamentally 2 issues with ball groups. 1 is with the actual pvp balance of them, the other is with server performance. While I personally am not a fan of the overall balance of them, my biggest issue is with their impact on server performance. Off hours when there aren't any ball groups the game runs great almost regardless of numbers. Even more concerning is what, if any plans zos has going forward for more tests. In order to reduce the amount of server noise I make as a solo player running all single target abilities to make up for somebody in a ball group making probably at least 5 (but probably more like 10) times the noise; to the point that lag is better is going to be brutal.

CrustyCroco

Your D-Swing example is completely missing one of the main problems for online games. Location checks, which are made by the server by some server fps rate. If it runs on 100fps for example, it sends updates every 10ms to the players (=10 per second), which is A LOT, especially if it has to deal with multiple players.
I don't know that much about it, but the game basically asks for the player's position in a constant matter, so that you can see the other player running around fluently. To make that possible, these checks are made SO often within a second, that the used skill from an individual player doesn't produce so many calculations in relation to the location checks, than you might think.
These also help to measure, how far those players are from your position etc, no matter what skill you are using. These checks play a big role within the "smart targetting" combat system that eso has. You don't really have to aim anything 100% correctly, it's the game doing it for you, but for that it has to always ask, who is closest/farthest/lowest health etc etc and since it has to find out who is the closest, it asks EVERYONE around, even if you just use a single target skill.

It probably gets worse, if the 3rd faction joins the fight, cause then all these range and location checks are going to the next level.

Lag in 1v1 tournaments is more or less confirming this. With quite a crowd watching, the lag is still existent, even tho noone uses a lot of skills, AoEs or other stuff. Just by being there and moving around, the server is put on a lot of stress.
Of course it gets worse, if many people are fighting on top of that, but i can't hear all this "ball group cause the lag" anymore, when there is so much more behind it and people just try to find the best possible scapegoat for what is mainly a multiplayer game mechanic issue.

Vizirith

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Your D-Swing example is completely missing one of the main problems for online games. Location checks, which are made by the server by some server fps rate. If it runs on 100fps for example, it sends updates every 10ms to the players (=10 per second), which is A LOT, especially if it has to deal with multiple players.
I don't know that much about it, but the game basically asks for the player's position in a constant matter, so that you can see the other player running around fluently. To make that possible, these checks are made SO often within a second, that the used skill from an individual player doesn't produce so many calculations in relation to the location checks, than you might think.
These also help to measure, how far those players are from your position etc, no matter what skill you are using. These checks play a big role within the "smart targetting" combat system that eso has. You don't really have to aim anything 100% correctly, it's the game doing it for you, but for that it has to always ask, who is closest/farthest/lowest health etc etc and since it has to find out who is the closest, it asks EVERYONE around, even if you just use a single target skill.

It probably gets worse, if the 3rd faction joins the fight, cause then all these range and location checks are going to the next level.

Lag in 1v1 tournaments is more or less confirming this. With quite a crowd watching, the lag is still existent, even tho noone uses a lot of skills, AoEs or other stuff. Just by being there and moving around, the server is put on a lot of stress.
Of course it gets worse, if many people are fighting on top of that, but i can't hear all this "ball group cause the lag" anymore, when there is so much more behind it and people just try to find the best possible scapegoat for what is mainly a multiplayer game mechanic issue.

I've never heard of lag in 1v1 tournaments until now so I can't speak much to that. But the fact that when there are no ball groups even with a pop locked server, which has happened ping never gets all that high. By your reasoning then cyrodiil should ALWAYS be very laggy. If it is simply the number of people on a server regardless if they are pvping or not, then we wouldn't have lag spikes at all. And more telling is just how high they spike.

CrustyCroco

Vizirith wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Your D-Swing example is completely missing one of the main problems for online games. Location checks, which are made by the server by some server fps rate. If it runs on 100fps for example, it sends updates every 10ms to the players (=10 per second), which is A LOT, especially if it has to deal with multiple players.
I don't know that much about it, but the game basically asks for the player's position in a constant matter, so that you can see the other player running around fluently. To make that possible, these checks are made SO often within a second, that the used skill from an individual player doesn't produce so many calculations in relation to the location checks, than you might think.
These also help to measure, how far those players are from your position etc, no matter what skill you are using. These checks play a big role within the "smart targetting" combat system that eso has. You don't really have to aim anything 100% correctly, it's the game doing it for you, but for that it has to always ask, who is closest/farthest/lowest health etc etc and since it has to find out who is the closest, it asks EVERYONE around, even if you just use a single target skill.

It probably gets worse, if the 3rd faction joins the fight, cause then all these range and location checks are going to the next level.

Lag in 1v1 tournaments is more or less confirming this. With quite a crowd watching, the lag is still existent, even tho noone uses a lot of skills, AoEs or other stuff. Just by being there and moving around, the server is put on a lot of stress.
Of course it gets worse, if many people are fighting on top of that, but i can't hear all this "ball group cause the lag" anymore, when there is so much more behind it and people just try to find the best possible scapegoat for what is mainly a multiplayer game mechanic issue.

I've never heard of lag in 1v1 tournaments until now so I can't speak much to that. But the fact that when there are no ball groups even with a pop locked server, which has happened ping never gets all that high. By your reasoning then cyrodiil should ALWAYS be very laggy. If it is simply the number of people on a server regardless if they are pvping or not, then we wouldn't have lag spikes at all. And more telling is just how high they spike.

I don't think the game does the location checks for everyone in Cyrodiil but at a certain range to each other. Like in a keep area, render distance etc, even keepwalls get added as a "unit" into esologs for example, but only if you are in range. So the more people/ targetable objects are stacked in a location, the more stress is on the server and thus the map overall.

neferpitou73

The performance issue is likely that ZOS moved calculations from client side to server side. From what I've heard this mess started around that point, and bugs and broken fixes have likely compounded on that.

I think we should stop blaming this playstyle or that playstyle for the mess. Fact is you could have much bigger fights when the game started, and as we've seen from all of the tests they've done, it's not sets or heal spams that's doing this. The only thing these "fixes" have done is further frustrate and decrease the pvp population.

This is a server issue not a playstyle issue.