Why procs need a major rework before re-enabling
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spacefracking
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Alright, so, I've had the discussion about procs about a million times at this point, and I am a bit puzzled at peoples' impression of what a balanced game should look like.
In cyrodiil pvp, there are several key mechanics, that every balanced class should need to play, and be considered when 1v1-ing:
Snare + Immobilize
This is CC type one. It allows putting distance between the player and the adversary, going ranged, escaping or stealthing, or other maneuvers.
Stun/knockdown/knock back/etc
This is CC type two. It is on a global cooldown, and gives the player an extra chance to execute a combination. A standard kill in pvp generally requires timing this stun at the right time, when health is low, and then finishing.
Gap closing
These abilities come in a variety of different flavors, but generally allow putting distance, or closing distance between a player and the adversary. I.e., streak, lotus fan, chains, silver leash, etc.
Heals and damage shields
Damage mitigation
Direct damage
Damage over time
Movement speed augmentation
NOW, why have I listed these?
I've listed these, because every single class should have to play every single mechanic in this toolset, otherwise it's 'broken'. Everyone says stamdens are broken. Why? They get a bunch of these in some swiss army knife abilities. Sorcs? They get an aoe stun, and gap close in one ability with streak. People complain about things like this all of the time.
Let me repeat, if ANY BUILD can ignore one of these mechanics, it is strong. Two or more? It is categorically broken, and not balanced in the game.
So lets look at why procs are a problem here, and which types of sets are the actual issue at hand.
Damage Procs
Should be pretty obvious here, people sometimes run with malacath for extra boost. When we have sets like Vicious Death, that can deal 33 THOUSAND damage, what are we even to say? How can there be a proc that is twice as strong as the strongest ultimate in the game? And it just triggers. At least prox det requires some skill.
The key here is that procs are so completely out of line with what active abilities can do in this game. And this game, _should_ be about the class you play, and the buttons you press.
Lets look at some problematic damage sets:
And ON and ON and ON. These proc sets are stronger than nearly any ability a person can cast, and many require virtually no aiming.
Does that sound like balance? I think not.
Now for the pure awfulness that is available to players
Some sets manage to turn many of the key mechanics into things that can be mostly ignored. Crimson deals a massive radius of damage (as strong as an ulti), and then a heal stronger than a heal ulti. From a set.
Snow treaders? Snow treaders disable two of the key mechanics, both snare AND stun, making combat totally broken. Oh, they can't run? They can gap close. This was not thought through enough if balance is the goal here.
Harbinger? You don't even have to attack enemies. Just standing around blocking, and its possible to get dozens of kills, and can take 30+ people to kill a single player _that isn't even attacking or healing_.
Ring of the wild hunt? No need to gap close. No need to root/snare, as when moving that fast, they essentially already are snared.
In conclusion
There is a clear intention for the setup of combat, and the slots that abilities are categorized into. A proper balanced build should have the ability to do all of these things adequately with a set of slotted abilities. If a build, or a collection of sets, allows players to ignore these categories, it is not balanced, and will cause certain classes to overperform to the point of absurdity, and others to be "unplayable".
So, if we want things to be balanced, damage procs, heal procs, Snow Treaders, Ring of the Wild Hunt, and others should not be allowed in pvp. They were a bad idea in the first place.
I know its fun to run around with these OP sets, and feel like a king taking about 30 noobies, because the player knew to farm crimson from castle thorn. But that is toxic to the community, and locks out new players.
I've seen the bad***es out there, 1vXing, no proc. That's legit. That takes skill. That's what makes this a game that's worth playing.
So, if ya like trashing noobs for a high, bring all the procs back, lets rock and roll, tho the pvp platform will continue to shrink.
But, if you want to show skill, and to not gatekeep against noobs joining, the only things to bring back are the stat bonus sets, the weird regen procs (like eternal vigor), the Master destro staff (buffs spell damage as a proc), Bright Throat (chug a potion, get spell damage), all of the things that require actually casting abilities to fill each of the key mechanics.
That, is a balanced game. Death to one bar face roll builds!
P.S., I look forward to ya'll picking apart my analysis of what the key combat mechs are. Got some damned good players in cyrodiil, and this might give folks a chance to pick your brains
In cyrodiil pvp, there are several key mechanics, that every balanced class should need to play, and be considered when 1v1-ing:
Snare + Immobilize
This is CC type one. It allows putting distance between the player and the adversary, going ranged, escaping or stealthing, or other maneuvers.
Stun/knockdown/knock back/etc
This is CC type two. It is on a global cooldown, and gives the player an extra chance to execute a combination. A standard kill in pvp generally requires timing this stun at the right time, when health is low, and then finishing.
Gap closing
These abilities come in a variety of different flavors, but generally allow putting distance, or closing distance between a player and the adversary. I.e., streak, lotus fan, chains, silver leash, etc.
Heals and damage shields
Damage mitigation
Direct damage
Damage over time
Movement speed augmentation
NOW, why have I listed these?
I've listed these, because every single class should have to play every single mechanic in this toolset, otherwise it's 'broken'. Everyone says stamdens are broken. Why? They get a bunch of these in some swiss army knife abilities. Sorcs? They get an aoe stun, and gap close in one ability with streak. People complain about things like this all of the time.
Let me repeat, if ANY BUILD can ignore one of these mechanics, it is strong. Two or more? It is categorically broken, and not balanced in the game.
So lets look at why procs are a problem here, and which types of sets are the actual issue at hand.
Damage Procs
Should be pretty obvious here, people sometimes run with malacath for extra boost. When we have sets like Vicious Death, that can deal 33 THOUSAND damage, what are we even to say? How can there be a proc that is twice as strong as the strongest ultimate in the game? And it just triggers. At least prox det requires some skill.
The key here is that procs are so completely out of line with what active abilities can do in this game. And this game, _should_ be about the class you play, and the buttons you press.
Lets look at some problematic damage sets:
- Vicious Death: 33k, ripples in a chain reaction, makes ball group so far out of the realm of reason that they are universally hated.
- Vateshran desto staff: This proc deals more damage than the most powerful dot a player can cast.
- Syvarra's scales: massive aoe dot, compatible with malacath
- Zaan: deals 2k, 4k, 6k, 8k, 10k, 12k damage, each tick. What ability is this strong without having to aim, or even decide when you want to trigger it? Just root, zaan proc, vateshran, stun, pop an ulti. You get a kill. That's not combat. That's a joke.
And ON and ON and ON. These proc sets are stronger than nearly any ability a person can cast, and many require virtually no aiming.
Does that sound like balance? I think not.
Now for the pure awfulness that is available to players
Some sets manage to turn many of the key mechanics into things that can be mostly ignored. Crimson deals a massive radius of damage (as strong as an ulti), and then a heal stronger than a heal ulti. From a set.
Snow treaders? Snow treaders disable two of the key mechanics, both snare AND stun, making combat totally broken. Oh, they can't run? They can gap close. This was not thought through enough if balance is the goal here.
Harbinger? You don't even have to attack enemies. Just standing around blocking, and its possible to get dozens of kills, and can take 30+ people to kill a single player _that isn't even attacking or healing_.
Ring of the wild hunt? No need to gap close. No need to root/snare, as when moving that fast, they essentially already are snared.
In conclusion
There is a clear intention for the setup of combat, and the slots that abilities are categorized into. A proper balanced build should have the ability to do all of these things adequately with a set of slotted abilities. If a build, or a collection of sets, allows players to ignore these categories, it is not balanced, and will cause certain classes to overperform to the point of absurdity, and others to be "unplayable".
So, if we want things to be balanced, damage procs, heal procs, Snow Treaders, Ring of the Wild Hunt, and others should not be allowed in pvp. They were a bad idea in the first place.
I know its fun to run around with these OP sets, and feel like a king taking about 30 noobies, because the player knew to farm crimson from castle thorn. But that is toxic to the community, and locks out new players.
I've seen the bad***es out there, 1vXing, no proc. That's legit. That takes skill. That's what makes this a game that's worth playing.
So, if ya like trashing noobs for a high, bring all the procs back, lets rock and roll, tho the pvp platform will continue to shrink.
But, if you want to show skill, and to not gatekeep against noobs joining, the only things to bring back are the stat bonus sets, the weird regen procs (like eternal vigor), the Master destro staff (buffs spell damage as a proc), Bright Throat (chug a potion, get spell damage), all of the things that require actually casting abilities to fill each of the key mechanics.
That, is a balanced game. Death to one bar face roll builds!
P.S., I look forward to ya'll picking apart my analysis of what the key combat mechs are. Got some damned good players in cyrodiil, and this might give folks a chance to pick your brains
3
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WolfyRaps✭✭✭✭Without all those sets you cited the games lacks variaty and is awfully boring. The proof is now in Cyro where all the campaigns are completly dead exept in prime time. I haven't played cyro more than 2 hours in the last two months, while before I used to play it all the time.
All the sets you cited are good in specific situations only and have hard counters and I can say it with confidence because I have tested them all in all PVP scenarios (duels, BG, Cyro).2 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Without all those sets you cited the games lacks variaty and is awfully boring. The proof is now in Cyro where all the campaigns are completly dead exept in prime time. I haven't played cyro more than 2 hours in the last two months, while before I used to play it all the time.
All the sets you cited are good in specific situations only and have hard counters and I can say it with confidence because I have tested them all in all PVP scenarios (duels, BG, Cyro).
On NA the campaigns are still alive and well, not just during prime time. The no-proc thing doesn't seem to have changed population much, if at all. It did however, create much larger faction stacks for protection, which has basically negated any improvements in lag.2 -
WolfyRaps✭✭✭✭
On NA the campaigns are still alive and well, not just during prime time. The no-proc thing doesn't seem to have changed population much, if at all. It did however, create much larger faction stacks for protection, which has basically negated any improvements in lag.
And faction stacking eliminates any resemblance of "skill". That is why Cyro is completly unplayable and extremly boring for the real PVPers. This goes completly against your argument that build diversity that comes from allowing all game content in PVP deminishes skill.
Building a strong PVP character using a vast array of available choices is fun and a necessary skill in an MMO, unlike an FPS where you equip one of the 19 avaible weapons and you go to work.
Cyro atm is unplayable, it is a joke and a slap in the face of the whole ESO community !
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Elo106✭✭✭✭✭On one hand people complain about sets doing X for you but with the other they press one key to activate a burstheal, heal over time, stun all at the same time. Those sets added stuff to fix your class/builds weaknesses, just stacking stats is boring.
I want more options than the few sets we have. Some classes lack so much they relied on procs, now if you dont play necro/warden/magsorc you are gimping yourself.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Without all those sets you cited the games lacks variaty and is awfully boring. The proof is now in Cyro where all the campaigns are completly dead exept in prime time. I haven't played cyro more than 2 hours in the last two months, while before I used to play it all the time.
All the sets you cited are good in specific situations only and have hard counters and I can say it with confidence because I have tested them all in all PVP scenarios (duels, BG, Cyro).
If PvP needs armor sets to do powerful/flashy/arguably broken things that far exceed what regular class abilities could accomplish in order not to awfully boring, then PvP is not worth playing, let alone saving.2 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
If PvP needs armor sets to do powerful/flashy/arguably broken things that far exceed what regular class abilities could accomplish in order not to awfully boring, then PvP is not worth playing, let alone saving.
Erm, those sets don't have to be op or broken, ZoS made them that way, they created this meta.
They could balance them properly.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
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Erm, those sets don't have to be op or broken, ZoS made them that way, they created this meta.
They could balance them properly.
Wake me up when ZOS balances anything properly.
There is a difference between an argument that having more than 18 sets would make theory crafting more interesting and offer more viable options and the argument that we need sets like Earthgore, Thews, Venomous Smite, Zaan, and all the other crap that people will immediately go right back to wearing once update 30 launches to make the game less "boring." It might be less "boring" but it certainly is a lot more frustrating.
I will push back against arguments that just claim we need powerful proc sets to make PvP more fun or varied or whatever other justification people use to want 5 piece armor bonuses that play the game for players and are disproportionately strong.Edited by Joy_Division on 13 April 2021 14:313 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭Without all those sets you cited the games lacks variaty and is awfully boring. The proof is now in Cyro where all the campaigns are completly dead exept in prime time. I haven't played cyro more than 2 hours in the last two months, while before I used to play it all the time.
All the sets you cited are good in specific situations only and have hard counters and I can say it with confidence because I have tested them all in all PVP scenarios (duels, BG, Cyro).
Opposite experience here, I've been playing more Cyro than I have in years. Usually IC/BG.
I find it wholly refreshing that I'm not getting proc/dotted to death by a horde of light attacks.
Having been able to somewhat step into the past with the no-proc changes, I can confidently say Malacath + Procs makes for boring, garbage gameplay.
There is an argument to be made for Vicious Death and WD/SD stat boosting procs being allowed in Cyro, we'll have to see what they come up with for the next cycle.
For the time being, I'm bingeing the proc free zone.Light Attack Hero
Class contextSpoilerStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB2 -
spacefracking✭✭✭✭Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't have access to the majority of sets that have stat procs. Those are very important for variety. Molag Kena with procced spell damage, War maiden with spell damage *just* for magic attacks, eternal vigor for an interesting regen mechanic, etc etc etc.
Those should definitely be saved.
But one more look at the example of vicious death. With CP 2.0, a slottable star was added that causes enemies to explode for 8k damage. Vicious Death procs for _33 thousand_ damage. That's more than 4 times a stat, which is outrageous.
I would prefer my first option, if only stat procs, and specific stars, where added back into the game. But if the others are to be added back, I think it would only make sense to make the damage/heals no stronger, or better yet, less strong, than active abilities.
No more 1 bar faceroll stuff like stamdens. I haven't heard a single person say that stamdens is balanced at any time in the past year.1 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭All the sets you cited are good in specific situations only and have hard counters and I can say it with confidence because I have tested them all in all PVP scenarios (duels, BG, Cyro).
Sets like zaans and vateshran destro only have one counter, and that's to run away. They both increase damage the longer it's active, so there's no point sitting in the middle healing because that's just gonna increase the damage they deal, so the only "counter" is to run. If actively avoiding a fight by running away is the only proper counter to a setup, then it shouldn't function that way to begin with.
I would be fine with vicious death if everyone wasn't using it in masse, everyone just runs zerg style with vd which makes these groups exponentially stronger. Even in BGs now its this way, I joined a group BG and the enemy team were all running VD and the randoms who grouped with me were all getting killed and I got killed with 4 VD's on my recap for 12k because randoms stay stacked on each other 24/7. If it was utilized by one person, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the problem is people running groups 12-20+ all running VD at the same time, even if their abilities are weak if they stack 12k VD's there's not much you can doEdited by xDeusEJRx on 13 April 2021 18:45Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade2 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I occasionally miss the "good" procs and the "bad" procs, for different reasons, but no proc Cyrodiil has been anything but boring for me. For the first time in ages, it feels like I can run any class and be successful but at the same time
Opposite experience here, I've been playing more Cyro than I have in years. Usually IC/BG.
I find it wholly refreshing that I'm not getting proc/dotted to death by a horde of light attacks.
Having been able to somewhat step into the past with the no-proc changes, I can confidently say Malacath + Procs makes for boring, garbage gameplay.
There is an argument to be made for Vicious Death and WD/SD stat boosting procs being allowed in Cyro, we'll have to see what they come up with for the next cycle.
For the time being, I'm bingeing the proc free zone.
Same, I've played nothing but Cyrodiil since the no-proc started because I know those annoying sets are still present everywhere else. It's going to be very sad if procs are just enabled as they were when the next update hits.3 -
Mr_Gallows✭✭✭Procs should be minor bonuses... not game defining. They need complete rework or just dtay out of pvp. Defensive procs are even worse than the offensive ones.1
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
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Opposite experience here, I've been playing more Cyro than I have in years. Usually IC/BG.
I find it wholly refreshing that I'm not getting proc/dotted to death by a horde of light attacks.
Having been able to somewhat step into the past with the no-proc changes, I can confidently say Malacath + Procs makes for boring, garbage gameplay.
There is an argument to be made for Vicious Death and WD/SD stat boosting procs being allowed in Cyro, we'll have to see what they come up with for the next cycle.
For the time being, I'm bingeing the proc free zone.
Wish I could play outside primetime more, I really can't play with the 2-3 sec skill delay that happens during that time in cyro.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Wake me up when ZOS balances anything properly.
There is a difference between an argument that having more than 18 sets would make theory crafting more interesting and offer more viable options and the argument that we need sets like Earthgore, Thews, Venomous Smite, Zaan, and all the other crap that people will immediately go right back to wearing once update 30 launches to make the game less "boring." It might be less "boring" but it certainly is a lot more frustrating.
I will push back against arguments that just claim we need powerful proc sets to make PvP more fun or varied or whatever other justification people use to want 5 piece armor bonuses that play the game for players and are disproportionately strong.
Well to counter your point, you can see what ZOS qualifies as procsets.
I dont think they have the will to actually ever balance this game, sadly. Especially not for pvp.
But i can hope. At least until New World releases...0 -
Mr_Gallows✭✭✭
Well to counter your point, you can see what ZOS qualifies as procsets.
I dont think they have the will to actually ever balance this game, sadly. Especially not for pvp.
But i can hope. At least until New World releases...
Limited sets and some kind pf balance is better than the ilkusion of build diverdity and messed up gameplay.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mr_Gallows wrote: »
Limited sets and some kind pf balance is better than the ilkusion of build diverdity and messed up gameplay.
If, and only if Zos didn't blanket disable sets, that no one in their right mind would call procs, I'd be okay.
But I don't trust them to realize what most of the community would identify as proc sets.
But with the current cyro as is, you are just shuffling the same few sets around for maximum stats and that's it.
I don't enjoy the proc meta. Here on pc EU it didn't go away, Beacuse players realized that they can run the exact same disgusting stuff and now they just have more stats too.
But I also don't want the blandness thats in cyro right now.
Honestly at this point they should just hire someone else for balance cuz the current team messed up the game so hard it's ridiculous.0 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭
Wish I could play outside primetime more, I really can't play with the 2-3 sec skill delay that happens during that time in cyro.
Same, I've never been able to tolerate the "main" campaign. The unlocked 30 day has a fairly unbalanced pop on PC/NA but it doesn't see ballgroups or real zergs like the locked 30.
I play there and hop back and forth to whoever has low-pop bonus.Light Attack Hero
Class contextSpoilerStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB0 -
spacefracking✭✭✭✭Hmm. Surprised there's largely agreement here. Balancing the game really shouldn't be that complicated. Hopefully the no-proc thing will give them the time to figure out what to do in pvp.0
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
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Same, I've never been able to tolerate the "main" campaign. The unlocked 30 day has a fairly unbalanced pop on PC/NA but it doesn't see ballgroups or real zergs like the locked 30.
I play there and hop back and forth to whoever has low-pop bonus.
Oh, the ball groups left? I know two large DC guilds that used to use Blackreach for light PVP got targeted by them, so left. I guess they got bored and left too then, since they didn't have any more groups of PVP newbies to farm.0