Want to test the no group Cyrodiil?

master_vanargand

Many players believe that the Ballgroup is the cause of Cyrodiil's lag.
So why not do a no group test with Cyrodiil?
Players can cooperation together in VC, but there is no Ballgroup that eternal Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This may also improve Cyrodiil's game balance.

IAmIcehouse

Can we stop with the tests? Why do we want more? We're not beta testers, this shouldn't be an expectation.

Joy_Division

No.

We already had a test of max group size 6.

Stop the tests. Hire a PvP developer, give them the resources to make meaningful changes, and then the quality of PvP will improve.

LarsS

No

Tommy_The_Gun

Most likely not gonna happen. Cyro needs groups, for the same reason it needs solo players.

But I would like to point one thing out. Best PvP experience I had was in 2014 - 2015, back when game launched. Back then people were just experimenting and no one knew what is BiS. There was no meta.

Granted, there were groups, people were playing in group and also solo. But the most important part is that back then, people had not figured out yet to stack AOEs and Ulti-dump. Single target abilities were used more often than AOEs.There were no ball groups, even though we had 24 man organised groups. Kinda crazy to even imagine, right ? That it was possible to play in 24 man group, but without "ball group effect".

Nord_Raseri

We already have that. It's called 'Davon's Watch Wayshrine'

Reverb

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Most likely not gonna happen. Cyro needs groups, for the same reason it needs solo players.

But I would like to point one thing out. Best PvP experience I had was in 2014 - 2015, back when game launched. Back then people were just experimenting and no one knew what is BiS. There was no meta.

Granted, there were groups, people were playing in group and also solo. But the most important part is that back then, people had not figured out yet to stack AOEs and Ulti-dump. Single target abilities were used more often than AOEs.There were no ball groups, even though we had 24 man organised groups. Kinda crazy to even imagine, right ? That it was possible to play in 24 man group, but without "ball group effect".

I’ve got to counter that a little. By late summer 2014 the meta was warlock and seducer, and we were absolutely stacking aoe and coordinating ulti dumps. There are plenty of NM, Havok, Decibel, IR, DIE, Alacrity, etc. videos from 2014-15 showing this.

The pop caps were much higher, and there were several highly (to moderately) coordinated guild groups on each alliance. And it was a much better all around pvp experience for it.

TequilaFire

No
Group PvP is why I bought the game in the first place.

UntouchableHunter

I was waiting for this topic.
The solo player never will understand and respect the others will.

"Let's make a no group test Cyrodill"

Three weaks later ZOS come and announce that because the positive feedback groups in Cyrodill will be disabled.

Ridiculous right?

They just did it with 97% of our sets...

CSose

I want a test with more investment into server capacity and technology. We haven't had that test yet.

NeillMcAttack

If you are able to still heal alliance members I don’t see how this test would have any real benefits or results. People will still gravitate to where the largest fights are and spam AOE’s leading to the same performance we have now. Granted I agree that ball groups put significant strain on the bandwidth. But simply removing the crown indicator may not have any meaningful results.

Anyway, is it even possible to do this. I would imagine that ZOS is developing a way to test this when they refer to “campaign rule sets” but then again. They may just mean “limiting sets” as “campaign rule sets”. Who the hell knows!?

I am of the mind that unless the network and net code can be improved. Or all AOE spells and set effects can be completely changed. Cyro will remain in a poor state.

Though in short, yes, I would like to see the results of such a test.

hafgood

No, just no

I don't Ball Group but I'm fed up of the let's blame them for everything attitude that festers on these forums.

Ball Groups are a valid play style as is playing solo. Let's stop trying to end one and force the other on everyone.

And it wouldn't work anyway. When I PvP it's as part of a guild group, we use guild chat to coordinate the groups and either split up for separate objectives or all hit the same place. Making us play solo wouldn't stop this.

I'd rather see an increase in group size to make the game more inclusive. Because we have to use GC to talk to each other due to having multiple groups it excludes players not in our guild from Amy conversation, this means if we pick up a random they have no idea of what's going on and cannot follow crown. Let's get back to groups of 24 ASAP

Brrrofski

As a solo player, we don't need this.

To be honest, most solo players aren't too concerned with objectives. Ball groups go to an objective and farm dumb zerglings all day.

Ball groups rarely attack me, and I don't chase them around towers. So I have no issues.

I rarely see ball groups target solo players. They might target an individual, but that's usually someone caught outside of their zerg that usually zerg them down.

Do they cause lag? Maybe. But our focus shouldn't be on stripping away pieces of cyrodiil. We need new servers or ZOS need to work out how to optimize their current ones. That's all we need. Will it happen? Probably not.

I think people need to accept that performance is what it is. Either we put up with it, play something different on ESO like BGs or IC, or play something else entirely. That's a sad thing to say, but none of the tests so far have provided any positive outcomes, so not sure any more will fix it (from a gameplay perspective).

RinaldoGandolphi

Joy_Division wrote: »

No.

We already had a test of max group size 6.

Stop the tests. Hire a PvP developer, give them the resources to make meaningful changes, and then the quality of PvP will improve.

Sadly, that won't fix it. To keep Cyrodiil groups the way they are right now allowing players to heal, purge, and buff each other in large numbers group or not, the game will never work properly. This is due to the overhead in TCP and ZOS use of TCP netcode in ESO. WOW gets away using TCP because they cooldowns on abilities which in essence clamps the number of TCP requests per minute. ESO doesn't do that.

The only way to fix ESO is to completely overhaul and re-rewrite all the backend systems and Netcode, and thats simply not going to happen. That would probably cost over 15-20 million dollars to do that, at that point they might as well just make a new game all together.

The fix for Cyrodiil in how things are now is actually not that difficult.

Via Battle Spirit:

Make all skills that heal only heal the caster
Make all Spells that apply any buff or condition only effect the caster
Increase the damage of siege by 350% and make all siege damage oblivion damage with secondary effect
Increase the damage of siege against walls by 200%
Reduce the strength and hit points of walls by 50%
Make all sets that heal, or put any buff or effect only effect the person wearing it.

You can still group, you can still coordinate, you can still coordinate ultimates, you can still flank and strategize...it will just be much more risky than it is right now. coordinated groups will be more squishy, but so will solo and new players.

I personally miss the days of taking a 30k+ Lethal Arrow on my Mag Sorc pre-Imperial city. Damage in ESO isn't high enough enough...defense will always be 50% better than offense because battle spirit halves tooltips, combine that with being able to heal, its no wonder everyone is tanky.

The changes i suggest above makes the game more of a tower pushing, land taking war of attrition and to be frank that doesn't play to the strength of coordinated groups so they will have problems with that, but i'd argue Cyrodiil was designed to be a keep taking war of attrition, it wasn't focused on making group play viable...if it was, guards and resources would be nearly impossible to take alone.

I know there would be some players who would leave or would not like this. I can understand why that would be the case and i sympathize with that, but the fact is no matter how many pvp developers they hire, the game is never going to work with how things are set up now due to the backend.

Making the changes i suggest above will reduce the amount of TCP requests per minute by a drastic amount. People will die faster, keeps will flip faster, the whole game will become faster paced, coordinated groups will be much easier to kill, the ones who will be slightly harder to kill will force all their members to slot heals and this removes specialization builds such as purge spammers, healing spring spammers, etc and take away their comparitive advantage which is the core of why these groups are so hard to kill and thus lag the server.

I get it, no one wants to die, no one wants to lose.I am not calling you out specifically Joy Division. You know I have a lot of respect for you, not only as a player, but as a person. You have stuck out ESO when folks like me have left.

I came back very breifly, but the way the game is right now...i left again, and if things don't change, I won't be coming back...ZOS needs to face facts that the backend systems and TCP isn't going to allow ESO to work in its current form, and needs to move forward with steps to make it work with performance in mind. As i said, them investing millions to re-write the backend and netcode is simply not feasible at this point, they could however do some of the small changes above to pick up the games pace, significantly nerf organized play, make keep changing easy, and turn the game into a war of attrition instead of who has the most ball groups on the map.

Again just my 2 cents, take it for what you will.

IAmIcehouse

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No.

We already had a test of max group size 6.

Stop the tests. Hire a PvP developer, give them the resources to make meaningful changes, and then the quality of PvP will improve.

Sadly, that won't fix it. To keep Cyrodiil groups the way they are right now allowing players to heal, purge, and buff each other in large numbers group or not, the game will never work properly. This is due to the overhead in TCP and ZOS use of TCP netcode in ESO. WOW gets away using TCP because they cooldowns on abilities which in essence clamps the number of TCP requests per minute. ESO doesn't do that.

The only way to fix ESO is to completely overhaul and re-rewrite all the backend systems and Netcode, and thats simply not going to happen. That would probably cost over 15-20 million dollars to do that, at that point they might as well just make a new game all together.

The fix for Cyrodiil in how things are now is actually not that difficult.

Via Battle Spirit:

Make all skills that heal only heal the caster
Make all Spells that apply any buff or condition only effect the caster
Increase the damage of siege by 350% and make all siege damage oblivion damage with secondary effect
Increase the damage of siege against walls by 200%
Reduce the strength and hit points of walls by 50%
Make all sets that heal, or put any buff or effect only effect the person wearing it.

You can still group, you can still coordinate, you can still coordinate ultimates, you can still flank and strategize...it will just be much more risky than it is right now. coordinated groups will be more squishy, but so will solo and new players.

I personally miss the days of taking a 30k+ Lethal Arrow on my Mag Sorc pre-Imperial city. Damage in ESO isn't high enough enough...defense will always be 50% better than offense because battle spirit halves tooltips, combine that with being able to heal, its no wonder everyone is tanky.

The changes i suggest above makes the game more of a tower pushing, land taking war of attrition and to be frank that doesn't play to the strength of coordinated groups so they will have problems with that, but i'd argue Cyrodiil was designed to be a keep taking war of attrition, it wasn't focused on making group play viable...if it was, guards and resources would be nearly impossible to take alone.

I know there would be some players who would leave or would not like this. I can understand why that would be the case and i sympathize with that, but the fact is no matter how many pvp developers they hire, the game is never going to work with how things are set up now due to the backend.

Making the changes i suggest above will reduce the amount of TCP requests per minute by a drastic amount. People will die faster, keeps will flip faster, the whole game will become faster paced, coordinated groups will be much easier to kill, the ones who will be slightly harder to kill will force all their members to slot heals and this removes specialization builds such as purge spammers, healing spring spammers, etc and take away their comparitive advantage which is the core of why these groups are so hard to kill and thus lag the server.

I get it, no one wants to die, no one wants to lose.I am not calling you out specifically Joy Division. You know I have a lot of respect for you, not only as a player, but as a person. You have stuck out ESO when folks like me have left.

I came back very breifly, but the way the game is right now...i left again, and if things don't change, I won't be coming back...ZOS needs to face facts that the backend systems and TCP isn't going to allow ESO to work in its current form, and needs to move forward with steps to make it work with performance in mind. As i said, them investing millions to re-write the backend and netcode is simply not feasible at this point, they could however do some of the small changes above to pick up the games pace, significantly nerf organized play, make keep changing easy, and turn the game into a war of attrition instead of who has the most ball groups on the map.

Again just my 2 cents, take it for what you will.

At first I thought this was a sarcasm post. Increase the damage of siege by a magnitude of ~7? I hate that the forums require me to do be so diplomatic.

Jaraal

Brrrofski wrote: »

I rarely see ball groups target solo players. They might target an individual, but that's usually someone caught outside of their zerg that usually zerg them down.

Know how I know you don't set up meatbags in the field?

UntouchableHunter

hafgood wrote: »

No, just no

I don't Ball Group but I'm fed up of the let's blame them for everything attitude that festers on these forums.

Ball Groups are a valid play style as is playing solo. Let's stop trying to end one and force the other on everyone.

Perfection