Skillfull pvp (patch exp after my return)

Noctus

while there are ppl that dislike the dmg output now there is a good side of it. People who have fast reflexes and can read the skills casted around them and even recognize them by sound will be able to avoid dmg. also situational awarenes and positioning gets more important. these are all individual and mechanical skills that should be in pvp.

also ppl who dont have cookie cutter builds now will still be able to get some kills which will make more ppl who were PVE only play PVP becouse now they dont feel like achieving nothing. u rather die 8 times with 2 kill than 4 times with none but since most ppl in tankmeta were gear carried anyway and used to tank 5 ults with no problem beginners in PVP will actually perform better (becouse their skills are more dmging and viable).

the previous tank meta (which is still effective but also needs now more skill) people were face tanking 3-4 dawnbreakers and were literally on automode with their skills. a sloth can play heavy armor proc build and would have been successfull with it.

i guess what most ppl dislike is that they feel to squishy with their previous build. since i was using squishy build allready in tankmeta and got killed by aoe alone nothing rly changed for me other than those hp stacking people do die now with a good combo. Since i came back after my break i didnt experience any stalemates with my tankier build too which is good.

glasscannons are more viable now if played correct. ur like dancing on a fine thread above the abyss which i like. its skillfull to survive with such a build and should be rewarded accordingly.
in previous meta glasscannons were unplayable becouse it was all about cuddling and stacking hp and cross heals which was to effective becouse of tankiness.

increasing block cost and also increasing the dmg absorbed made sense too for various reasons. if u get ambushed and then hold block in the right time u wont get killed through ur block but also u wont be able to just block permanently and have to time ur blocks according to ur enemy burst. (this change makes combat way more tactical and tank builds still stay viable)

by increasing weapon dmg it made skills more potent thus procs less important.

but there are things im personally aint happy with and its proc unbalance and class unbalance(as seen in cyrodiil right now. ive been preaching that long ago). light armor sets that give spelldmg or magicka as 5th set bonus should increase in effectivity so more ppl would scrap procs in favor of stats. but tbh there are only some outliers its not like all procs are effective in pvp same goes for stat sets some are just rly powerfull like eternal vigor. (personally would like to see vateshran staff range decrease). i think when classbalance is going to be worked on we will see more ppl running around with mother sorrow and other things in bg becouse class skills will be more reliable .

for now my experience is positive. just wanted to share my opinion and i expect ppl to share theirs to see if im wrong since i only returned few days ago.

Xargas13

I really like PvP here, it's addictive and fun. But what kills fun is proc tanks, I think they increased the damage output to deal with that but it didn't, I think they need to deal with heavy armor first. I always said that tanks should never pull the damage they do. I agree and disagree with this post, while I like PvP here, the direction since Greymoor that they took is not to my liking to say the least. But good points there.

Waffennacht

I take issue with visual ques when positioning is incorrect.

master_vanargand

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

Waffennacht

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

Which changes do you think that's attributed to?
Can't be CP as BGs have no CP
Can't be armor changes because all still work in BGs

So it could be: Mist form nerf, block adjustments, increased starting stats, armor weight perk changes or something unrelated to the update.

wheem_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

Which changes do you think that's attributed to?
Can't be CP as BGs have no CP
Can't be armor changes because all still work in BGs

So it could be: Mist form nerf, block adjustments, increased starting stats, armor weight perk changes or something unrelated to the update.

My guess would be that he fought against some players who either weren't very good at PvP, and/or were running outdated DOT builds, while he was benefitting from the newly improved healing. As I've mentioned in a couple other threads, I've seen Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regeneration each get crit ticks for over 3k (without Minor or Major Vitality), which means the other morphs obviously do even more.

A burst-oriented Stamina build was already pretty much a god in low MMR BGs, but that's even more true now. Couple dodge rolls and a Vigor should easily cover up almost any mistakes.

FirmamentOfStars

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

Elo106

Theoretically I would agree but than you got the skills not firing, the position desyncs, the unresponsiveness and the bad ping.
Put the class imbalances and low build variety on top and cyro is no fun.

We should have had a no heal/dot of the same name stacking test.
EG: you can have rapid regen and radiating regen on you but only the strongest case of each would apply.

Instead we have zergs spamming regen and players running around with 20 hots ticking not dieing and everything lags

Noctus

SavageChain wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

i beg to differ. not all procs sets are bad design wise. for example calurion, selene, velidreth.... have visual and audio queues. i had many situations where i won a 1 vs 1 in bg becouse i dodged caluurion but the opponent failed to dodge mine.

in general aslong as u can counter things with ur skill and reflexes its fine by me. but as u know it gets rly problematic when ppl just can healthstack +40 k hp and proc 15 k dmg or heal thats another problem and probably the biggest one with procs.

its the unavoidable procs that bother me the most. as example huntersvenom doesnt go into cooldown if the enemy dodges the attack that would proc it. well it doesnt even have visual indicator or anything to begin with and u also have healing procs that just go off in the backround with not counterplay to it whatsoever.

i do get ur point but i believe procs can work out if done right.

FirmamentOfStars

Noctus wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

i beg to differ. not all procs sets are bad design wise. for example calurion, selene, velidreth.... have visual and audio queues. i had many situations where i won a 1 vs 1 in bg becouse i dodged caluurion but the opponent failed to dodge mine.

in general aslong as u can counter things with ur skill and reflexes its fine by me. but as u know it gets rly problematic when ppl just can healthstack +40 k hp and proc 15 k dmg or heal thats another problem and probably the biggest one with procs.

its the unavoidable procs that bother me the most. as example huntersvenom doesnt go into cooldown if the enemy dodges the attack that would proc it. well it doesnt even have visual indicator or anything to begin with and u also have healing procs that just go off in the backround with not counterplay to it whatsoever.

i do get ur point but i believe procs can work out if done right.

There is one way proc sets actually would be part of skillful gameplay and only a few procs currently would fullfil the requirements:

Burst damage
Specific proc condition, which is kinda controllable.

Doleymish is an example of a good proc set imo. The requirements to proc are not easy to meet: a heavy attack on a stunned or rooted enemy. Caluurion imo is already kinda bad, since the proc condition is random, but with some good timing of a stun and burst, its kinda decent for a proc. But thats it, all other proc sets are braindead, proc on cooldown without any real proc condition.

As long as procs cant be developed in a good way, no proc cyro is much more skill based.

relentless_turnip

SavageChain wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

I largely agree with this. I currently have 3 builds per character. A no proc test build, BG build and cp IC build. The difference between the last 2 is I back bar a defensive set over a damage set for BG's because procs are still so offensive there. There is skill in attempting to use a stat build in that environment IMO. As you have to be so fast to actively heal yourself and squeezing in a combo before you are melted by the immense amounts of proc damage constantly being aoe'd.

There is next to no skill in a lot of the builds utilised within BG's imo. I think some players forget the damage isn't actually being sourced from them, but is just a side effect of a simple action. They didn't line up a combo they did a light attack and all of their proc sets fired.

Waffennacht

relentless_turnip wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

I largely agree with this. I currently have 3 builds per character. A no proc test build, BG build and cp IC build. The difference between the last 2 is I back bar a defensive set over a damage set for BG's because procs are still so offensive there. There is skill in attempting to use a stat build in that environment IMO. As you have to be so fast to actively heal yourself and squeezing in a combo before you are melted by the immense amounts of proc damage constantly being aoe'd.

There is next to no skill in a lot of the builds utilised within BG's imo. I think some players forget the damage isn't actually being sourced from them, but is just a side effect of a simple action. They didn't line up a combo they did a light attack and all of their proc sets fired.

Both of you are describing only a player that is using a full on proc build in a BG

Based on what both of you said; skill is dependant purely on lining up offensive oriented damage abilities through player interface (I only agree to an extent that is this a single example of player based skill but I digress) meaning while a player maybe handicapped by not using procs in a BG - they do have skill based experience in BGs

FirmamentOfStars

Waffennacht wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I fought a group of four alone in the deathmatch in Battlegrounds.
They can't kill me, and I won't die if other groups aim at me.
I'm glass cannon build, but not a meta build.
Then I killed everything and I didn't die until the end.
Battlegrounds is player skill meta now.

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay, even though the new changes brought some power back to the player instead of his gear. Still gear plays a huge role with all the proc sets. So i would say the no proc high damage cyrodiil experience is more skillbased than bgs.

I largely agree with this. I currently have 3 builds per character. A no proc test build, BG build and cp IC build. The difference between the last 2 is I back bar a defensive set over a damage set for BG's because procs are still so offensive there. There is skill in attempting to use a stat build in that environment IMO. As you have to be so fast to actively heal yourself and squeezing in a combo before you are melted by the immense amounts of proc damage constantly being aoe'd.

There is next to no skill in a lot of the builds utilised within BG's imo. I think some players forget the damage isn't actually being sourced from them, but is just a side effect of a simple action. They didn't line up a combo they did a light attack and all of their proc sets fired.

Both of you are describing only a player that is using a full on proc build in a BG

Based on what both of you said; skill is dependant purely on lining up offensive oriented damage abilities through player interface (I only agree to an extent that is this a single example of player based skill but I digress) meaning while a player maybe handicapped by not using procs in a BG - they do have skill based experience in BGs

I nowhere said playing in bgs with procs is totally skillless or anything about full proc builds. Just that most procs have such an easy condition atm, so that they proc on cooldown without much thinking or much input. Many proc sets deal damage over time, so you cant line up their damage with a burst combo, they are just adding an absurd amount of damage on top of what you are doing. Having a smooth offensive combo can be definied as skilled player input if you want and naturally a proc set user can this too....but the same sets can be used by skillless players to mostly same extent, since using the proc sets by itself does not require skill. But offensive combos arent the only thing accounting to skills, defensive capaabilities are important aswell.

So skill is what the player is doing by himself, lining up skills (and procs in the case of a proc you can actually line up) as offensive combos, but also his survivability done by himself (positioning and healing, meanwhile using a proc like crimson can be used skillfully through position to get the most healing out of it for example). You can use procs skillfully in a few cases, but normally they either just add damage or healing on top of player input without the player actually doing much to trigger the procs. Therefore the usage of procs normally is skillless, the damage and healing in such an environment is a lot dependent on procs in many cases and therefore also the success of proc users. In summary people in an environment using procs are for sure carried to a certain degree. Therefore bgs are a place, where naturally skilled gameplay happens by good players, but its heavenly dependent on procs meanwhile Cyrodiil atm is free of carry sets, meaning skill really matters.

Waffennacht

SavageChain wrote: »

I nowhere said playing in bgs with procs is totally skillless or anything about full proc builds.

SavageChain wrote: »

I wouldnt say bgs are skillbased gameplay...

Was the line I took issue with @SavageChain