Maintenance for the week of November 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Free Damage, Free Stats, Power Creep, and Build Diversity
Ranger209
✭✭✭✭✭
In response to the 6 month hiatus on proc sets I see a lot of people expressing the opinion that they would like some proc sets brought back. They view 19 sets as too limiting and killing build diversity, and think as long as the "free damage" proc sets are removed that the "stat only" sets are fine and should be brought back. I want to say be careful what you wish for.
For the last 6-9 months people have been complaining about the proc tank meta as well as the proc meta itself. People able to build 40k plus hp, high resists, and rely on procs for damage. They find issue with sets like Crimson, Harbinger, Alessian, to Venomous, Syvarras, Caluurions, Unleashed, Sheer Venom, and Doylemish among others. Rightly so as these provide "free damage" or large amounts of hp regen/tankiness. Another offender for other reasons is Eternal Vigor and the resource regen it provides. Not free damage, but entirely problematic. Malacath? Say no more. All of these things led to the procy/tanky meta we have endured for the last 6-9 months. Most people agree this is not a healthy environment to play in.
Many people, however, are advocating for sets like NMA, Briarheart, Seducer, and such to be brought back. The rationale is that stat sets are ok, they don't cause the kind of issues we have been going through recently. I would tread carefully when asking for these to be brought back. Prior to the meta we have just endured people complained about the tank meta for the 2-3 years prior to that. What is the main thing that allows for tanky, high burst, high sustain, high regen do it all builds that people complained about during that period of time? Stat dense sets in various combinations. When you can combine sets that give 30k hp, 25k resists, 6k weapon damage, 30k stam, 2k stam regen, 50% crit or 50k mag, 4k spell dmg, and 12k pen you get the builds that can't be killed and can turn around and 2 shot people all while never running out of resources. Can these stat dense sets pull this off alone? No, but when combined with all the buffs that people can get they sure do. People seem to neglect the fact that these stat sets can be buffed to beyond what is reasonable. But the combination of stat dense sets in multiple combinations along with top end buffs creates builds that are out of control. People can also build super tanky, like 80k hp with 50k resists, and 4k health regen, or they can go all out the other way with like 9k weap/spell damage and 50k mag/stam which creates a whole other set of issues when facing people that are not min/maxing in one direction or another. They create too much power creep in too many different ways.
I enjoy build diversity as much as the next guy. Theory crafting, and taking certain builds into PvP, and then massaging them depending on the results I am getting is rewarding. It's fun in it's own right, I get it. But I personally, when looking at the gameplay that it produces, think that stuff is better off left to PvE land where you are fighting against AI, and not against other paying customers. It creates a situation that becomes impossible to balance classes for, and impossible to balance gameplay for. PvP, to me should be competitive in nature, not one sided because of gear/buff combinations that create such a disparity between playstyles that the results are just not fun for most people. Limiting the number of sets as has been done presently limits the ways things can be min/maxxed in some builds, or saturated in others. It creates a tighter delta in power between all players, which creates better fights. Yes the diversity, and the theory crafting we do outside of Cyrodiil is not as fun, but the fights we have, and time we spend in Cyrodill is way more fun. I would take the latter.
On another note, in the next 6 months mark my words, people will be calling for nerfs to Amberplasm, and Shacklebreaker, and other sets as well. Watch and see. If we can't have just 19 sets without calls for nerfs, how can we have 300 sets, and that is being conservative, without calling for nerfs? Be thoughtful about your requests. I get the temptation to want NMA back. I have like 6 sets golded out, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for PvP, and I am willing to dust them all if the gameplay is more engaging with less stat dense sets.
For the last 6-9 months people have been complaining about the proc tank meta as well as the proc meta itself. People able to build 40k plus hp, high resists, and rely on procs for damage. They find issue with sets like Crimson, Harbinger, Alessian, to Venomous, Syvarras, Caluurions, Unleashed, Sheer Venom, and Doylemish among others. Rightly so as these provide "free damage" or large amounts of hp regen/tankiness. Another offender for other reasons is Eternal Vigor and the resource regen it provides. Not free damage, but entirely problematic. Malacath? Say no more. All of these things led to the procy/tanky meta we have endured for the last 6-9 months. Most people agree this is not a healthy environment to play in.
Many people, however, are advocating for sets like NMA, Briarheart, Seducer, and such to be brought back. The rationale is that stat sets are ok, they don't cause the kind of issues we have been going through recently. I would tread carefully when asking for these to be brought back. Prior to the meta we have just endured people complained about the tank meta for the 2-3 years prior to that. What is the main thing that allows for tanky, high burst, high sustain, high regen do it all builds that people complained about during that period of time? Stat dense sets in various combinations. When you can combine sets that give 30k hp, 25k resists, 6k weapon damage, 30k stam, 2k stam regen, 50% crit or 50k mag, 4k spell dmg, and 12k pen you get the builds that can't be killed and can turn around and 2 shot people all while never running out of resources. Can these stat dense sets pull this off alone? No, but when combined with all the buffs that people can get they sure do. People seem to neglect the fact that these stat sets can be buffed to beyond what is reasonable. But the combination of stat dense sets in multiple combinations along with top end buffs creates builds that are out of control. People can also build super tanky, like 80k hp with 50k resists, and 4k health regen, or they can go all out the other way with like 9k weap/spell damage and 50k mag/stam which creates a whole other set of issues when facing people that are not min/maxing in one direction or another. They create too much power creep in too many different ways.
I enjoy build diversity as much as the next guy. Theory crafting, and taking certain builds into PvP, and then massaging them depending on the results I am getting is rewarding. It's fun in it's own right, I get it. But I personally, when looking at the gameplay that it produces, think that stuff is better off left to PvE land where you are fighting against AI, and not against other paying customers. It creates a situation that becomes impossible to balance classes for, and impossible to balance gameplay for. PvP, to me should be competitive in nature, not one sided because of gear/buff combinations that create such a disparity between playstyles that the results are just not fun for most people. Limiting the number of sets as has been done presently limits the ways things can be min/maxxed in some builds, or saturated in others. It creates a tighter delta in power between all players, which creates better fights. Yes the diversity, and the theory crafting we do outside of Cyrodiil is not as fun, but the fights we have, and time we spend in Cyrodill is way more fun. I would take the latter.
On another note, in the next 6 months mark my words, people will be calling for nerfs to Amberplasm, and Shacklebreaker, and other sets as well. Watch and see. If we can't have just 19 sets without calls for nerfs, how can we have 300 sets, and that is being conservative, without calling for nerfs? Be thoughtful about your requests. I get the temptation to want NMA back. I have like 6 sets golded out, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for PvP, and I am willing to dust them all if the gameplay is more engaging with less stat dense sets.
5
-
Corrected that for you. Sorry, could not resist but complain about proc sets started for real with VD introduction:-)For the last few years people have been complaining about the proc tank meta as well as the proc meta itself.
When fighting randoms vs randoms I would agree. However 1vX or ball groups are a different story. While it is not a bad idea to be better at something than the rest it still is the truth that the gap between some of those groups/players and the rest of the world was basically out of control sadly. The aim here is to make it simply more manageable.Procs are annoying, such braindead sets like Crimson, but I never had problem to deal with them using stats builds.
I prefer dealing with them, rather then killing the whole diversity in Cyrodiil.
2 -
hands0medevil✭✭✭✭✭In response to the 6 month hiatus on proc sets I see a lot of people expressing the opinion that they would like some proc sets brought back. They view 19 sets as too limiting and killing build diversity, and think as long as the "free damage" proc sets are removed that the "stat only" sets are fine and should be brought back. I want to say be careful what you wish for.
For the last 6-9 months people have been complaining about the proc tank meta as well as the proc meta itself. People able to build 40k plus hp, high resists, and rely on procs for damage. They find issue with sets like Crimson, Harbinger, Alessian, to Venomous, Syvarras, Caluurions, Unleashed, Sheer Venom, and Doylemish among others. Rightly so as these provide "free damage" or large amounts of hp regen/tankiness. Another offender for other reasons is Eternal Vigor and the resource regen it provides. Not free damage, but entirely problematic. Malacath? Say no more. All of these things led to the procy/tanky meta we have endured for the last 6-9 months. Most people agree this is not a healthy environment to play in.
Many people, however, are advocating for sets like NMA, Briarheart, Seducer, and such to be brought back. The rationale is that stat sets are ok, they don't cause the kind of issues we have been going through recently. I would tread carefully when asking for these to be brought back. Prior to the meta we have just endured people complained about the tank meta for the 2-3 years prior to that. What is the main thing that allows for tanky, high burst, high sustain, high regen do it all builds that people complained about during that period of time? Stat dense sets in various combinations. When you can combine sets that give 30k hp, 25k resists, 6k weapon damage, 30k stam, 2k stam regen, 50% crit or 50k mag, 4k spell dmg, and 12k pen you get the builds that can't be killed and can turn around and 2 shot people all while never running out of resources. Can these stat dense sets pull this off alone? No, but when combined with all the buffs that people can get they sure do. People seem to neglect the fact that these stat sets can be buffed to beyond what is reasonable. But the combination of stat dense sets in multiple combinations along with top end buffs creates builds that are out of control. People can also build super tanky, like 80k hp with 50k resists, and 4k health regen, or they can go all out the other way with like 9k weap/spell damage and 50k mag/stam which creates a whole other set of issues when facing people that are not min/maxing in one direction or another. They create too much power creep in too many different ways.
I enjoy build diversity as much as the next guy. Theory crafting, and taking certain builds into PvP, and then massaging them depending on the results I am getting is rewarding. It's fun in it's own right, I get it. But I personally, when looking at the gameplay that it produces, think that stuff is better off left to PvE land where you are fighting against AI, and not against other paying customers. It creates a situation that becomes impossible to balance classes for, and impossible to balance gameplay for. PvP, to me should be competitive in nature, not one sided because of gear/buff combinations that create such a disparity between playstyles that the results are just not fun for most people. Limiting the number of sets as has been done presently limits the ways things can be min/maxxed in some builds, or saturated in others. It creates a tighter delta in power between all players, which creates better fights. Yes the diversity, and the theory crafting we do outside of Cyrodiil is not as fun, but the fights we have, and time we spend in Cyrodill is way more fun. I would take the latter.
On another note, in the next 6 months mark my words, people will be calling for nerfs to Amberplasm, and Shacklebreaker, and other sets as well. Watch and see. If we can't have just 19 sets without calls for nerfs, how can we have 300 sets, and that is being conservative, without calling for nerfs? Be thoughtful about your requests. I get the temptation to want NMA back. I have like 6 sets golded out, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for PvP, and I am willing to dust them all if the gameplay is more engaging with less stat dense sets.
You are right, it's easier to be a forum warrior than actually try to get better in game. Players got used to begging eso devs on the forum for nerfs, pve cyrodiil etc. It's sooo funny right now when they realized how many sets are considered as proc by Zeni. And now they beg for the return of their favourite ones. Well, we have what some players wished for. Instead of balance changes, we lost most of the sets available in game. It just changed the meta, didn't balance the game. New sets and classes are now considered op, new forum warriors arised.Edited by hands0medevil on 9 March 2021 11:120 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think it was a lazy approach instead of fixing the broken set combinations. Players complained about Malacath since PTS and they nerfed Dead Waters Guile. Who was complaining about Dead Water? I think they should have spent the time and energy addressing the proc sets people had valid issues with so this wouldn't have happened.
Though it does suck having wasted a lot of time and money on sets that I wanted to try out, this is a good time for players who are just getting into pvp or the game to go out and have some fun. They wont have to worry about farming days\years to farm certain sets or get Mythics. Most the sets on the list are pretty easy to get.
Another issue about that is there really isn't an in game indicator that let players know what gear or modifiers work in Cyrodiil. Unless you actually look at your stats but some players might not be aware of the change and won't know. Maybe something in the game that lets players know what parts of a set will work? Like NIght Mothers Embrace for example, maybe have the parts of the fifth piece bonus show up as a different color that indicates that part isn't functional in Cyrodiil?
Also looking at this new CP system makes me think it will be easier to balance issues while we have limited sets, at least in Cyrodiil and they can still use data from the BGs and Sewers to balance the notorious proc sets and Mythics. Some of the combinations with the proc sets and new CP system may have been more ridiculous then anyone could ever have imagined.Edited by Dr_Ganknstein on 9 March 2021 12:585 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »I think it was a lazy approach instead of fixing the broken set combinations. Players complained about Malacath since PTS and they nerfed Dead Waters Guile. Who was complaining about Dead Water? I think they should have spent the time and energy addressing the proc sets people had valid issues with so this wouldn't have happened.
Though it does suck having wasted a lot of time and money on sets that I wanted to try out, this is a good time for players who are just getting into pvp or the game to go out and have some fun. They wont have to worry about farming days\years to farm certain sets or get Mythics. Most the sets on the list are pretty easy to get.
Another issue about that is there really isn't an in game indicator that let players know what gear or modifiers work in Cyrodiil. Unless you actually look at your stats but some players might not be aware of the change and won't know. Maybe something in the game that lets players know what parts of a set will work? Like NIght Mothers Embrace for example, maybe have the parts of the fifth piece bonus show up as a different color that indicates that part isn't functional in Cyrodiil?
Also looking at this new CP system makes me think it will be easier to balance issues while we have limited sets, at least in Cyrodiil and they can still use data from the BGs and Sewers to balance the notorious proc sets and Mythics. Some of the combinations with the proc sets and new CP system may have been more ridiculous then anyone could ever have imagined.
Dead Water was used as a trash pull set in top end pve raids.0 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭Are pro OP? So let ban them.
Are Sorcs OP with 19 sets? Yes but I like to test my skills with the most OP and unbalanced class in the game.
The unbalanced now it is completely worst, the procs was hidden the gap between classes.0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »I think it was a lazy approach instead of fixing the broken set combinations. Players complained about Malacath since PTS and they nerfed Dead Waters Guile. Who was complaining about Dead Water? I think they should have spent the time and energy addressing the proc sets people had valid issues with so this wouldn't have happened.
Though it does suck having wasted a lot of time and money on sets that I wanted to try out, this is a good time for players who are just getting into pvp or the game to go out and have some fun. They wont have to worry about farming days\years to farm certain sets or get Mythics. Most the sets on the list are pretty easy to get.
Another issue about that is there really isn't an in game indicator that let players know what gear or modifiers work in Cyrodiil. Unless you actually look at your stats but some players might not be aware of the change and won't know. Maybe something in the game that lets players know what parts of a set will work? Like NIght Mothers Embrace for example, maybe have the parts of the fifth piece bonus show up as a different color that indicates that part isn't functional in Cyrodiil?
Also looking at this new CP system makes me think it will be easier to balance issues while we have limited sets, at least in Cyrodiil and they can still use data from the BGs and Sewers to balance the notorious proc sets and Mythics. Some of the combinations with the proc sets and new CP system may have been more ridiculous then anyone could ever have imagined.
Dead Water was used as a trash pull set in top end pve raids.
So the mobs complain 😆
I used champion of the hist and dead water on my pve necro0 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A larger issue here is that ZOS does not seem to have the creativity to create new sets that aren’t proc-based, and even if they are, they can’t figure out how to NOT make them so imbalanced.0 -
FlowOne✭✭✭Procs are annoying, such braindead sets like Crimson, but I never had problem to deal with them using stats builds.
I prefer dealing with them, rather then killing the whole diversity in Cyrodiil.
Exactly, word from OG player. ESO community always have excuses and now we have build diversity with 19 sets without monster, arena and mythic items.0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »
True enough, they have just been extremely amplified in the last year as more and more damage proc sets were put into the game.
I just don't want people to forget the tank meta that lies right beneath the proc meta, which lies right below the proc tank meta when they start asking for different sets to be re-enabled. Everyone has a different opinion on what is okay and what is not, and some people don't understand all of the unintended consequences that may arise if reinstituting set XYZ which seems harmless enough in a vacuum. I'm sure I don't there are too many combinations to be able to see it all.
1
