Some counter arguments to popular outcry against no proc Cyrodil

HiImRex

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

Faded

HiImRex wrote: »

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

nods in magblade

Crutching on procs feels like crap. Working three times as hard for a kill because you're rolling mag instead of stam feels like crap. Maybe this will get some attention when they have weeks of data from a no-proc Cyrodiil, since they've been disinclined to listen to us about it.

Pepegrillos

The only thing that can be said about these points is that you elaborated a long list of counter arguments to positions that almost no one holds in the form you have presented them. Instead of creating a scenario where you beat a list of straw mans, you could've opted to argue in good faith. [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

StaticWave

Pepegrillos wrote: »

The only thing that can be said about these points is that you elaborated a long list of counter arguments to positions that almost no one holds in the form you have presented them. Instead of creating a scenario where you beat a list of straw mans, you could've opted to argue in good faith. [snip]

Except that all these points have been used by people in the feedback thread. If you want to confirm every single point the OP has made, you are free to go through the 15+ pages of overwhelming negative feedback, and I bet you will encounter them.

The fact is people are carried by procs and making excuses for their lack of competence in PvP. The fact is ZOS clearly stated they will work on reintroducing more sets, yet people lack the comprehension to understand that. The fact is many players only came back just for this 3 week test, and were disappointed that it would end.

I'm sorry, but nobody likes procs. You are left with 2 options - to have a full proc cyro, or a limited set cyro. If you actually cared about the health of PvP, you would pick the latter every single time.

WhyEvenTry

I completely agree with everything in this post, well said!

Dunning_Kruger

Testify

Kory

Agreed.

Here's the thing though. The majority of the sets in this game, are procs. There are upcoming armors in this game that are also procs in new DLCs. When you remove them and are left with about 19 armor sets based on stats that is going to upset some people who have for years now used these sets. Ball groups thrive off of proc sets. Some players who like to 1vX can't do it without procs sets. There are certain fun and overpowered builds only accomplished through proc sets. Lets be frank, people like their cheesy set ups.
I use some of those sets you pointed out and I missed using eternal vigor as well.

Don't get me wrong no proc pvp is absolutely fun and should be a permanent stay in this game. I don't need procs to have fun, and I can create different builds with the different class skills and limited armors sets. Eagerly waiting for that Q3 update with no proc BGs!

Jayserix

Very sensible input.

I'd add one thing : humans have VERY short memory. Because the most recent experience is X, people forget the details of X-1.

UntouchableHunter

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

We got our no proc now... stop fighting us and you can have your procs back in q31.

Ackwalan

Stopped reading after the first BLA, if you want to be taken seriously, don't start by taunting.

Kwoung

Luckily, I stopped using proc sets long before this change in an attempt to get better at PVP in general. It has definitely made a difference for me without having proc X carry me when I should have died to stupidity or bad decisions in a fight. I may still be a potato, but I am a slightly more dangerous one thanks to Crafty / Spinners and been having fun with it!

I do look forward to certain sets being re-introduced in U31 hopefully, as there are many that should not have been removed and shouldn't count as a "proc" IMHO. Still praying the can do something/anything about the lag though.

UntouchableHunter

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

We got our no proc now... stop fighting us and you can have your procs back in q31.

You got you no proc now and in couple weeks your no proc will be empty. This is the way for who thinks only in himself.
We don't force you guys play with procs.
You guys wana force us to play without procs.

Minnesinger

There is the mysterious positive feedback The lag is the same or even worse but it is fun.

relentless_turnip

Good post man👍 totally agree.

Would love some of the conditional stat sets back, but combat is definetly a lot more fun without the other ***. So as you said, less than ideal, but it's better than continuing the proc meta👍

Kory

They are working on separate rulesets for the campaigns so the people who have to use proc sets in Cyradil can calm down
at anytime.

Sanct16

Most people complain about the fact that sets like Seducer, New Moon, etc are considered a proc.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

We got our no proc now... stop fighting us and you can have your procs back in q31.

You got you no proc now and in couple weeks your no proc will be empty. This is the way for who thinks only in himself.
We don't force you guys play with procs.
You guys wana force us to play without procs.

Forcing us to play with procs is exactly what your trying to do... currently it's no procs, you want them back,
So you use a bait and switch pretending that your on our side if we would just give up our side and accept procs for another 6 months.
And you call me selfish. I simply take at face value what Gina said... more people had more fun during the test with no procs. The true selfishness would be to deny those people their fun for the minority of tank proc meta users.

Seraphayel

Very good post, OP. +1

CSose

I don't think this call had anything to do with performance. Performance isn't any better with the set restrictions most of the time.

This was an upper management decision to reduce financial inputs into the game to a bare minimum in every possible way until after the sale is completed.

People are getting lost in the weeds about what is really going on here.

UntouchableHunter

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

We got our no proc now... stop fighting us and you can have your procs back in q31.

You got you no proc now and in couple weeks your no proc will be empty. This is the way for who thinks only in himself.
We don't force you guys play with procs.
You guys wana force us to play without procs.

Forcing us to play with procs is exactly what your trying to do... currently it's no procs, you want them back,
So you use a bait and switch pretending that your on our side if we would just give up our side and accept procs for another 6 months.
And you call me selfish. I simply take at face value what Gina said... more people had more fun during the test with no procs. The true selfishness would be to deny those people their fun for the minority of tank proc meta users.

No. You are misunderstanding the point here.

We had only 3 weeks, only 3, with 19 sets, almost everybody running stamina or Sorcs and players started to say that was nice in the first week but just got boring.

ZOS said us that the test was only for 3 weeks. And EVERYBODY WAS OK WITH THAT.

Then ZOS decided in the very end change the previous decision. People already bought the th dlc, waiting for use the new sets and use all the others now for 6 months we can't use.

We prefer have two different Campaigns one that will make you happy and other that will make others happy.

I really don't understand how somebody can be against it?

You call me selfish because I wana two different campaigns and in the same time you wana force others players to forget their sets, really doesn't make sense.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

They will make two campaigns and then we can both be happy but until then they turned procs off because they likely realized it's a healthier environment for pvp.

When folks use terms like "breath of fresh air" then they were choking on the fumes of oppressive proc pvp. And in the end that what you want is that feeling of unearned superiority and denial of others fun.

Folks here cry about no proc imbalances completely ignoring the even greater imbalance that were proc meta. And don't bs me about proc stat sets, those haven't been bis since the proc overhaul. Someone in another thread mentioned clever alchemist, and if folks were honest the only thing to say would be, "your stupid for using stat proc sets". Don't try to use non meta sets to move the goal post.

For now rejoice in the fresh air that is no proc pvp.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

1. Good point really. Especially about their usefulness.
2. Might be subjective but it is also my observation that for last 3 weeks fights against guild groups has become somewhat more durable. Also my observation (perhaps also subjective) is that I do actually die less. More importantly each time I do I do not need to check log to figure out what went wrong. Sadly with proc sets it was often kind of "no luck" type od death
3. Another good point. Game by design is about making choices. If someone wants to do damage then they should not play tanks. If someone want to be a tank then their damage also should be limited.
4. It used to be back in a day (claiming it as all 3 warden, templar and sorc player). Currently there are still mechanics to be watched for but not nearly as problematic as they used to be.
5. Also one more thing. How can anyone expect ZOS to rebalance ever wardens or necros if with proc sets the actual source of imbalance is questionable? if it really about the class, sets being used or the mix of both coming into some symbiosis? keeping it as simple as possible would surely help.
6. Personal opinion on that one: whenever someone buys dlc just for a single set then they possibly may not know what to do with their money. Or perhaps it is not just about this set and there is more than that dlc offers appealing to that player?
7. Cannot say about US but I guess it is not that crazy there and US citizens same as in EU are also required to acknowledge that they agree to terms and conditions of the service. Which basically makes all claims for refund, just because proc sets were disabled, obsoleted.
8. No comment here
9. But in Perfect World this could be done only by dueling and also there was no player called ZOS:-) On a serious note in a perfect world everyone would just read terms and conditions before signing it and either would refuse to sign it or they would just accept the fact such things may happen. But most certainly in a perfect world such case would be a ZOS win due to terms and conditions document that everyone signs.

rbfrgsp

What server were you playing on where you had less than 19 builds?

There is not greater diversity, simply put.

Everybody is now playing cuddled into a group. As soon as you see a player strayed too far from a herd, he is flattened by 43 projectiles and gap closers.

There is less cheese (vat staff, ball groups, snipetards and harbingers) sure, but there is less of everything. You play as a drone in a group or you get wiped. These players who think they are reaching for a higher skill ceiling are lying to themselves. They run small scale groups and hide in a resource tower, killing a stream of individual potatoes who run inside. They sit there for two hours and harvest 100 solo players in that fashion and convince themselves they are good and raising the skill ceiling.

Then a zerg rushes over them and 25 players gank them in under thirty seconds (just as is happening all over the map if you left your resource tower). Then they get all up in your PMs sending hate tells about getting ganked.

Some people playing this and working on this game seem to believe it is a serious tournament grade PvP game. It's not. It's meant to be a laugh. If some snipetard desync 2shots you between keeps - who cares? If you smack a harbinger tank and kill yourself, facepalm and move on. That's a bit of variety. If anything, pity the poor human who needs to hold block forever in order to achieve anything in the game.

If you want to play a game where all players have the same specs and play in big crowds and win/lose by a combo of 20% skill and 80% dumb luck, there's always Fall Guys.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

Most people complain about the fact that sets like Seducer, New Moon, etc are considered a proc.

Which btw are not even the majority of those disabled sets.

VaranisArano

Kory wrote: »

They are working on separate rulesets for the campaigns so the people who have to use proc sets in Cyradil can calm down
at anytime.

Can calm down at any time sometime around Q3 or when ZOS eventually gets around to bringing back the proc-enabled campaigns.

Ironically, the fact that ZOS is willing to bring back the proc-enabled campaigns means this isn't about balancing PVP. It's purely about gameplay preference.

With that in mind, ZOS has chosen to force everyone to follow the no-proc preference for at least 6 months, even though they know there is enough demand for proc-enabled gameplay that they'll reintroduce a campaign they expect to be viable.

I can't really blame people for being annoyed that ZOS is forcing everyone into a particular gameplay preference. It's no different from ZOS not offering non-faction locked options or when ZOS tried to force all the CP PVPers into one campaign when they knew there was a substantial demand for it.

NordSwordnBoard

I thought it kind of funny the Golden will sell you sets that can't be used where she sells them.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for a variety of rule violations. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Sandman929

My only complaint is the broad brush of "proc" sets, lumping something like Bloodspawn in with Za'an doesn't even seem remotely nuanced, but that's to be expected. If ZOS could tell the difference between procs that will be problematic, proccing healing or damage, and procs that simply give windows of opportunity that the player must capitalize on using their skills, we wouldn't be having problems with new overpowered sets every update.

Having a separate proc-free campaign seems like another recipe for a dead campaign though. I think the majority of the players will flock to the procs and those that aren't turned off by losing the easy kills will be turned off by just how imbalanced Magicka Sorcerers will be in a stat-based-only world.

Vetixio

Faded wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

Working three times as hard for a kill because you're rolling mag instead of stam feels like crap. Maybe this will get some attention when they have weeks of data from a no-proc Cyrodiil, since they've been disinclined to listen to us about it.

The part about Stam >>> Mag is so true, however I am finding Mag to be slightly more viable in no proc which is refreshing. Magsorc has mostly always been able to keep up with the Stam meta. However every other Mag class and Stamplar need buffs.

Minalan

This post is great.

Don’t listen to the crying ZOS, no proc is fun. Keep it permanent.

Buying DLC for a broken set only entitles you to use it against NPCs. The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to deal with some of the broken procs.