The objective mode battlegrounds meta is not fun.

MurderMostFoul

If you're playing to win, optimizing your build for objective modes in battlegrounds makes sense given that objective modes seem to occur at least 80% of the time (assuming an even distribution). These modes emphasize survivability above all else. It doesn't really matter if you're able to kill anyone, as long as you can indefinitely stand on a capture point, or hold an objective.

As more players adopt these types of builds, the BG meta continues to get more and more focused on survivability. Unfortunately, this drastically undermines the fun factor which used to make battlegrounds so enjoyable.

Elder scrolls online PVP in general appealed to me due to its fast-paced nature, and no CP meant quick times to kill and brutal feeling combat. With this objective mode BG meta, fights are now getting drawn out, often being determined by attrition or who's teammates show up.

When we could pick deathmatch, there was a much healthier balance between damage-oriented builds and tankier builds. Even before we had the ability to select game modes, proc sets were limited and Malacath wasn't available to make tank builds so appealing. But now with objective modes predominating, and sets that let you be very tanky but still do moderate damage, the BG meta has shifted to something I personally find largely unappealing.

There's a chance this could change with the next patch, but I'm not optimistic. With objective modes still occurring vastly more often than deathmatch, and the existence of so many sets that make tanking so viable, the BG meta is likely to remain as is even after the next patch.

Making deathmatch occur more often, or allowing us to select it would largely solve this problem. But as far as we can tell, ZOS has ignored the numerous posts requesting this.

For me at least, the game is now significantly less fun. And if the BG meta stays the way it is, my diminished motivation to sub and play this game will decline further.

Xargas13

I agree, tank proc meta is horrible. Tanks should never pull the damage they do. I was in a BG and encountered a pre-made I assume, all of them were in heavy armor is my guess, they just grouped up and killed everything that moves, and with how tanky they were and with damage they did, no one stood a chance. At this point heavy armor is almost god mode, and many are forced into it because they unable to kill heavy armor users, if this will continue I will think about wearing heavy myself, as much as I like light armor, since I am a magicka user, it doesn't worth the pain sometimes.

I think heavy armor is the problem not game modes, which I enjoy a lot since it's easier to find 1v1 or 1v2, which I enjoy the most.

It might anger some but I think they should increase the GCD when you wear heavy armor, it makes sense, since if you are wearing heavy, you are slower. But hopefully it won't come to further nerfs and what that did was enough, in next patch we won't see as many proc tank builds I hope. In BGs I already saw people switching to medium armor, might be wrong, but I encounter lots of stamina builds in medium armor, I hope this trend will continue.

Urzigurumash

@MurderMostFoul You agree with this call for nerfs above me here? Or you think it should just go back to where Crazy King and Chaosball were 1/10 matches so that tank builds were only occasionally useful rather than always?

Those modes were more fun back then because they were an interesting little break from Death Match. Now there is no Death Match.

MurderMostFoul

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul You agree with this call for nerfs above me here? Or you think it should just go back to where Crazy King and Chaosball were 1/10 matches so that tank builds were only occasionally useful rather than always?

Those modes were more fun back then because they were an interesting little break from Death Match. Now there is no Death Match.

I do think that Malachth + heavy armor + procs (and health-based heals where available) is a little out of line, but it's not the main problem with the BG meta. Because even the aforementioned setup does not have the same performance ceiling in Deathmatch as a well played dedicated damage build. But if that performance ceiling is only able to be actualized a fifth of the time at best, there's little incentive to run such builds.

The BG meta would be a lot more balanced between tanky builds and damage builds if the game modes were split 50/50 between Deathmatch and objective games. The oversaturation of objective mode matches is the main driver for this current BG meta, and the main reason why BG are less fun now. The fix is to increase the prevalence of death match, which doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

WhyEvenTry

Just bring back deathmatch queues, please thank you. BGs were WAY more fun when you could queue for only deathmatch.

JSlayer211

Tank meta isn't a TDM issue. It's that stats don't matter to damage. Take all of your stam/magicka out of your build and look at the difference in your damage. It's negligible. That's why people are opting for tank builds because health is much more impactful than your damage stats when you can stack spell/weapon damage from other sources and be more effective with abilities as well as wear proc sets on top of that.

The recent changes to heavy armor have made magicka users incredibly effective against heavy armor users, so I don't think heavy armor is the culprit either. Your damage stats just need to matter more to your damage skills. Unfortunately, they don't.

While I understand that the hardcore BG community wants TDM back, I do believe ZoS needs to implement it thoughtfully. Premades and solo's really should be kept separate. I think they should just add a TDM only option for the Premade Q and everyone would be satisfied. Then the sweats could go into that Q and get ROFL stomped by the 4v4v1 teams that would end up happening often.

Brrrofski

I think they should just make kills count to score in everything.

Sure, in flag/capture modes not as much, but still contribute. Kinda like how battlefield does conquest. Sure, flags matter, but so do kills.

That way people might actually want to kill as well as cap stuff.

Not sure if it's change much though.

Right now, BGs are like 40% no damage tanks, 40% run away fast builds and about 20% of them having a build that can kill.

Tanks are I the only issue. People running full movement speed and zooming around the map are everywhere. Try to fight them, they literally keep running and don't look back.

The mode where the flag moves all the time is the worst. There is no promotion of combat.

Chaos ball too. It's literally get it and run away. Like why not make it so your team gets points for killing other teams while you have the chaos ball. Small amount for the team, but a lot for the guy holding it. Or maybe by killing people it slows the damage ticks down. Either way, It promotes combat and gives a reason to fight and not just run away.

Capture the relic can be bad too. Sure, I can defend, but you see players run towards it, see you there and just run somewhere else. Just hoping for an empty relic.

I don't know how you fix it. Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

MurderMostFoul

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

This, please this. Or even 1/3 of the time. The current frequency is far, far too low.

Brrrofski

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

This, please this. Or even 1/3 of the time. The current frequency is far, far too low.

I guess that's because it doesn't divide it out to kill/flag/grab so it's a 33% split, but just gives each game mode the same chance.

So yeh, doing it so kill/flag/grab and then if it's flag/grab then decide which one, would be a lot better.

Urzigurumash

What we really need is a new mode that's like Crazy King, except it's the game mode that changes randomly, not the placement of flags.

Canned_Apples

No.
Objective based ones are a great way for us that don't play the malacath proc meta to complete our daily should we want to.

CooloutAC

and so with deathmatch the focus is on max damage and burst. what is the difference? Not your playstyle? Too bad imo. Learn to adapt your strategy that is the point of objectives. So its not just about meta build as you are claiming.


My problem is these same unkillable dudes. can turn around and two shot me. can anyone explain that? I have to unload everything I got with all my buffs I got, spamming and bursting into someones back running away from me who is at 10% health. I can't do a dam thing to him. Then he turns around and boom I'm dead.


Is it my gear? lol

CooloutAC

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

This, please this. Or even 1/3 of the time. The current frequency is far, far too low.

The problem is people were whining about qeue times cause noone wants to play TDM again overpowered teams. the other game modes make tanks and healers more viable. Also means strat and thinking over just simply tactics.

dominations has 4 points for exampel right? Or caputre the relic has 3 points. There are three teams of 4. Even if one team had 4 tanks. They won't survive 3 dps on them. because they can't have more then 2 guys on every flag or reelic at the same time. You gotta learn to play the mode man.

In games like gw2 for example, experienced players skill come from not just having meta builds, they come from knowing how to play the map and game modes. Thats the point of them. In the end the best fighting team will still win. But if your team is all brawn and no brains, or all tactics and no strat, then you won't. Thats what seperates the pros from the noobs imo.

MurderMostFoul

CooloutAC wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

This, please this. Or even 1/3 of the time. The current frequency is far, far too low.

The problem is people were whining about qeue times cause noone wants to play TDM again overpowered teams. the other game modes make tanks and healers more viable. Also means strat and thinking over just simply tactics.

dominations has 4 points for exampel right? Or caputre the relic has 3 points. There are three teams of 4. Even if one team had 4 tanks. They won't survive 3 dps on them. because they can't have more then 2 guys on every flag or reelic at the same time. You gotta learn to play the mode man.

In games like gw2 for example, experienced players skill come from not just having meta builds, they come from knowing how to play the map and game modes. Thats the point of them. In the end the best fighting team will still win. But if your team is all brawn and no brains, or all tactics and no strat, then you won't. Thats what seperates the pros from the noobs imo.

Lol, I know how to play the modes, and I always play the objective. In fact I win objective modes very often, prob >50%. I'll go 3 kills and 9 deaths in chaosball, have have the highest score overall from holding the ball the most, and win. The problem is, I don't enjoy it. I play PvP to test my builds in combat against other players, not to flex my keep away skills, nor to play race to the undefended flag.

But I made my OP last patch. The meta has shifted away from objective tanks. So I don't really have the same complaints anymore. However, I still wish I could still play Deathmatch more frequently.

CooloutAC

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

CooloutAC wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Maybe just put TDM 50% of the time. I mean, it's pvp after all, can we at least pretend we want people to fight?

This, please this. Or even 1/3 of the time. The current frequency is far, far too low.

The problem is people were whining about qeue times cause noone wants to play TDM again overpowered teams. the other game modes make tanks and healers more viable. Also means strat and thinking over just simply tactics.

dominations has 4 points for exampel right? Or caputre the relic has 3 points. There are three teams of 4. Even if one team had 4 tanks. They won't survive 3 dps on them. because they can't have more then 2 guys on every flag or reelic at the same time. You gotta learn to play the mode man.

In games like gw2 for example, experienced players skill come from not just having meta builds, they come from knowing how to play the map and game modes. Thats the point of them. In the end the best fighting team will still win. But if your team is all brawn and no brains, or all tactics and no strat, then you won't. Thats what seperates the pros from the noobs imo.

Lol, I know how to play the modes, and I always play the objective. In fact I win objective modes very often, prob >50%. I'll go 3 kills and 9 deaths in chaosball, have have the highest score overall from holding the ball the most, and win. The problem is, I don't enjoy it. I play PvP to test my builds in combat against other players, not to flex my keep away skills, nor to play race to the undefended flag.

But I made my OP last patch. The meta has shifted away from objective tanks. So I don't really have the same complaints anymore. However, I still wish I could still play Deathmatch more frequently.

I think they should have an unranked mode and let you choose your gamemode. but making 50% of the matches deathmatch will only further the problems, which imo caused them, to remove the option in the first place.

divnyi

People do bruisers not because of objectives, but because bruisers are top-tier duelists. Which isn't healthy state of the game, as fighters (25-30k HP) should be top tier duelists (as everything is min-maxed). I hope proc changes will do the trick.

Objectives.. only soloQ cares about them. Top tier premades just go and fight, ignoring all objectives alltogether. If the don't want to give us deatmatch, we will make everything deathmatch. Go capture your flags, you will know who really won by endgame stat screen.

Firstmep

JSlayer211 wrote: »

Tank meta isn't a TDM issue. It's that stats don't matter to damage. Take all of your stam/magicka out of your build and look at the difference in your damage. It's negligible. That's why people are opting for tank builds because health is much more impactful than your damage stats when you can stack spell/weapon damage from other sources and be more effective with abilities as well as wear proc sets on top of that.

The recent changes to heavy armor have made magicka users incredibly effective against heavy armor users, so I don't think heavy armor is the culprit either. Your damage stats just need to matter more to your damage skills. Unfortunately, they don't.

While I understand that the hardcore BG community wants TDM back, I do believe ZoS needs to implement it thoughtfully. Premades and solo's really should be kept separate. I think they should just add a TDM only option for the Premade Q and everyone would be satisfied. Then the sweats could go into that Q and get ROFL stomped by the 4v4v1 teams that would end up happening often.

Sadly this is true. My stamden with only 22k max Stam and 40k, and 0 procs is still dishing out disgusting dmg due to scaling.
I really wish we could tone down some of the worst offenders that enable this, like heavy attack sustain, sets that give you infinite recoveries etc.
I know ppl hated Morrowind but at least you had to worry about sustain in your build rather than just holding left click in between your attacks.
It's also more favorable towards Stam a bit, due melee heavies being faster, and especially after ele drain nerf.
The extra boost on major and minor recovery buffs also didn't help, tbh.

NordSwordnBoard

Not a necro thread, but I get why it was given some attention again. I think this is a similar problem for the dungeon ques - top players mixed with low levels because the rewards are almost the same. Whether actual level or skill level, in both cases I think zos wanted to mix them and it's not quite working.

I think the solution is to motivate people with what they want, separately. Serious DM players should get the opportunity to que for DM but at the expense of lesser or no rewards. Serious DM players usually have no problem getting a random daily done, so the rewards are still accessible to them. Then, people in BGs for literally everything else don't come across this:

divnyi wrote: »

Objectives.. only soloQ cares about them. Top tier premades just go and fight, ignoring all objectives alltogether. If the don't want to give us deatmatch, we will make everything deathmatch. Go capture your flags, you will know who really won by endgame stat screen.

The people in BGs for other incentives other than straight up PvP will get more like minded people. The people who want to fight, and fight people ready to do the same will get better challenges.

TLDR: Willing to give up crystals or xp to have consistently better fights?

divnyi

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

TLDR: Willing to give up crystals or xp to have consistently better fights?

Rewards are already very much negligible (you can maybe sell those trash sets for ~6k, if you underprise them so they go out fast -- you literally can sell stuff from daily writs for 5 times more), I don't think I will notice a difference.

So yes, separate group DM queue would surely do a trick, even with rewards cut.

CooloutAC

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Not a necro thread, but I get why it was given some attention again. I think this is a similar problem for the dungeon ques - top players mixed with low levels because the rewards are almost the same. Whether actual level or skill level, in both cases I think zos wanted to mix them and it's not quite working.

I think the solution is to motivate people with what they want, separately. Serious DM players should get the opportunity to que for DM but at the expense of lesser or no rewards. Serious DM players usually have no problem getting a random daily done, so the rewards are still accessible to them. Then, people in BGs for literally everything else don't come across this:

divnyi wrote: »

Objectives.. only soloQ cares about them. Top tier premades just go and fight, ignoring all objectives alltogether. If the don't want to give us deatmatch, we will make everything deathmatch. Go capture your flags, you will know who really won by endgame stat screen.

The people in BGs for other incentives other than straight up PvP will get more like minded people. The people who want to fight, and fight people ready to do the same will get better challenges.

TLDR: Willing to give up crystals or xp to have consistently better fights?

I still don't understand this thinking. . Do you think people who play bg in other games like gw2 or LoL, don't fight? I mean the difference is you just can't be a moth to a flame in overpowered gear and builds with the most cc and heals and expect to win matches with objectives. Thats what makes it a more respected and competitve e-sport imo. Makes more players viable and makes the matches more dynamic.
You need some strategy and brains too. not just brawn and fighting tactics.

but I agree to each his own people should be able to choose.

divnyi

CooloutAC wrote: »

Thats what makes it a more respected and competitve e-sport imo. Makes more players viable

So you want to make it e-sports or you want to make more players viable? Because it is different goals.

CooloutAC wrote: »

You need some strategy and brains too. not just brawn and fighting tactics.

Most strategies resolve around "avoid fights", given you have 2 enemy teams. You assume players don't know how to do that? It takes more brains than to actually defeat the enemy group?

StarOfElyon

I hate everything but Deathmatch and Domination. lol. [snip]

But regardless of what game I play, I build for fun. Usually with hybrids on stat based sets (meaning I'm dying a lot and not getting a ton of kills).

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

Jameson18

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/573273/zos-option-to-satisfy-the-death-match-requests-everyone-wins#latest

Waffennacht

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What we really need is a new mode that's like Crazy King, except it's the game mode that changes randomly, not the placement of flags.

That's actually a really cool idea
I like it; just exclude capture the relic imo