An Unpopular Opinion About Proc Sets

UntouchableHunter

End about this campaign everybody is doing the same, blastbones or subterranean assault, dswing, dswing, dawnbreaker execute. ZOS can cancel all other skills this is the game now.

Only magsorc are doing different because they are strong without diversity.

UntouchableHunter

One last thing. Somebody told about Zaan is over performance and have no counters

This is not true.

NB can avoid zaan really easy, zaan is the worst sets to fight against NB.

Sorcs are the same.

If someone wana here a build that have counter for absolutely everything you are going to the wrong direction and making wrong statements here.

Augusten15

To those claiming that proc sets kill class variety, I have a question.

When you are killed by melee regardless of class, which 2 skills pop up on your recap?

Dr_Ganknstein

We can't forget about the proc sets like vicecanon. Imo if the proc has decent damage then it should be harder to actually proc. Venomous does more damage the vicecanon and only has one requirement, vicecanon has two. The heal is trash and it does weak damage. One of the things I like about the game is build diversity so I think proc sets are fine for pvp but some need tweaked.

UntouchableHunter

I really agree with you about that, Master!!!

Crom_CCCXVI

DAMAGE PROC SETS ARE NOT A PROBLEM.

I'll repeat what I said in my other post:
Procs- are damage procs really the problem? Viper/Tremorscale came out 4 years ago. Maybe a nightblade is running Calaaruuns but what else? The Valasharon staff is broken every time someone moves behind a tree it is off... Torugs, Ice Furnace, maybe a poison set.. I didn't see a single one on my death screen all weekend. Maybe some need tweaked, but to get rid of them entirely is a mistake.

IMO, the problem is more about not dying, and that comes from the insignificance of high damage numbers The difference between 2500 weapon dmg, and 5000 weapon dmg just isn't that much when everyone has 30k health. 1 maybe 2k dmg on a big attack? Who cares?

and maybe a bigger problem if you look at the timeline of when most of these issues started was the introduction of IMMOBILIZATION IMMUNITY Not being able to lock down individual members of these tight AOE spam groups or separate a player from their healers hip pocket is huge. If you rotate a potion, various skills, the natural timer etc.. you can go minutes without ever stopping moving.--- I get that a large part of the elite player base doesn't care about objective based games and anytime they get stunned then the game must be broken-- but catering only to them is a double edged sword. Now even mediocre players can run in mobs and they are hard to kill.--- I don't think enough interest is being given to this point, as I see it as the single biggest game changer in Cyrodil play

regime211

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Kudos for perhaps a controversial opinion and your stance makes sense, but perhaps not in the context of why no one else wants them. That is to say they reduce the competitive nature of PvP down to who has the highest health, the most broken sets and who can use the fewest offensive skills and be successful.

I didn't grind for any proc sets as I refuse to use them. I played the entire patch in 5 medium, 2 damage sets. That said I have grinded countless sets that have essentially been made useless by meta shifts or direct nerfs.

I am excited to play without proc sets. I hope surviving this meta and essentially going against the grain has made me a better player 😬. I hope this test does improve performance and stat buffing proc sets are reworked to be more efficient.

Free damage and free healing can be banished from PvP as far as I'm concerned. It can even be buffed to make it more useful in other content.

I don't think many people will be bothered that they spent time grinding them. It happens in every mmo that you have to grind for the newest or most popular gear. Perhaps if they receive a buff people can use it to cheese vateshan hollows 😂👍

Free damage and free healing can be banished from PvP as far as I'm concerned. It can even be buffed to make it more useful in other content.

to be used where? to kill world bosses? to do trials? or even dungeons? i rather NOT deal with that, as i support not having proc sets during the testing, but it definitely does nothing to improve performance at all. Stop allowing Zos to get away with not balancing sets/classes etc..by just asking them to do away with proc sets, because truthfully proc's were not even an issue a few patches ago, just like we had a dot meta and that went away, they can adjust the proc sets which should be a combination of First a classes tool kit and proc set 2nd. not vice versa. you cant expect to have proc stay in every other part of the game other then pvp.

UntouchableHunter

regime211 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Kudos for perhaps a controversial opinion and your stance makes sense, but perhaps not in the context of why no one else wants them. That is to say they reduce the competitive nature of PvP down to who has the highest health, the most broken sets and who can use the fewest offensive skills and be successful.

I didn't grind for any proc sets as I refuse to use them. I played the entire patch in 5 medium, 2 damage sets. That said I have grinded countless sets that have essentially been made useless by meta shifts or direct nerfs.

I am excited to play without proc sets. I hope surviving this meta and essentially going against the grain has made me a better player 😬. I hope this test does improve performance and stat buffing proc sets are reworked to be more efficient.

Free damage and free healing can be banished from PvP as far as I'm concerned. It can even be buffed to make it more useful in other content.

I don't think many people will be bothered that they spent time grinding them. It happens in every mmo that you have to grind for the newest or most popular gear. Perhaps if they receive a buff people can use it to cheese vateshan hollows 😂👍

Free damage and free healing can be banished from PvP as far as I'm concerned. It can even be buffed to make it more useful in other content.

to be used where? to kill world bosses? to do trials? or even dungeons? i rather NOT deal with that, as i support not having proc sets during the testing, but it definitely does nothing to improve performance at all. Stop allowing Zos to get away with not balancing sets/classes etc..by just asking them to do away with proc sets, because truthfully proc's were not even an issue a few patches ago, just like we had a dot meta and that went away, they can adjust the proc sets which should be a combination of First a classes tool kit and proc set 2nd. not vice versa. you cant expect to have proc stay in every other part of the game other then pvp.

The procs are not the problem.

We can see in this test that the game is completely unbalanced.

Sorcs are God.
Stamcro are imortals
Stamden are imortals

Magdk are trash
Magcro are trash
Magplar are trash
Magblade are trash

The game is so unbalanced from the beginning that we need to have this fixed before change cps, introduce more sets, whatever.


And about the free healing, they I will only agree when the take of the proc healing from rally.

You get major brutality, minor endurance and a insane proc heal. Free healing.

UntouchableHunter

Duplicated

relentless_turnip

Test results are totally void imo. They should have reintroduced healing outside a group after the test. So we would have had an actual comparable difference.

There is simply no way if you remove more calculations that performance wouldn't improve, maybe not noticeably but it should improve. The issue is they reintroduced something potentially more taxing meaning we could actually be witnessing a net gain in server demand and a net loss in game performance.

This is obviously speculation as zos doesn't actually share data or any comprehensive explanation...

Skander

Procs are made to make the game easier for people without fingers. Click and win.


That's why this game will never be good in the first place.

Joy_Division

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Test results are totally void imo. They should have reintroduced healing outside a group after the test. So we would have had an actual comparable difference.

There is simply no way if you remove more calculations that performance wouldn't improve, maybe not noticeably but it should improve. The issue is they reintroduced something potentially more taxing meaning we could actually be witnessing a net gain in server demand and a net loss in game performance.

This is obviously speculation as zos doesn't actually share data or any comprehensive explanation...

We have years of evidence what playing with procs + cross healing is like.

relentless_turnip

Joy_Division wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Test results are totally void imo. They should have reintroduced healing outside a group after the test. So we would have had an actual comparable difference.

There is simply no way if you remove more calculations that performance wouldn't improve, maybe not noticeably but it should improve. The issue is they reintroduced something potentially more taxing meaning we could actually be witnessing a net gain in server demand and a net loss in game performance.

This is obviously speculation as zos doesn't actually share data or any comprehensive explanation...

We have years of evidence what playing with procs + cross healing is like.

Tbh what bothers me more than anything is the developers act as they have no idea why performance is terrible. They act as if they have no idea why it's degraded or blame it on player activity, which basically hasn't changed.

We know they chucked loads of stuff server side so they could release ESO on stadia. They know putting it back would fix it. There was a stark difference in server responsiveness between u25 and the day before it released. Yet they act like it's something combat related and leave us like idiots to debate with each other without making any comment and in many cases just delete threads about it.

They make us keep doing ridiculous tests with no comment on their outcome and with very little reward for taking part.

It's been a year of this unbearable performance and it certainly wasn't amazing before that... It was at least playable most the time.

Can't we just drop stadia now and wait until a time a game this complex has supporting technology to warrant its transition? Can we at least test it?

UntouchableHunter

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Test results are totally void imo. They should have reintroduced healing outside a group after the test. So we would have had an actual comparable difference.

There is simply no way if you remove more calculations that performance wouldn't improve, maybe not noticeably but it should improve. The issue is they reintroduced something potentially more taxing meaning we could actually be witnessing a net gain in server demand and a net loss in game performance.

This is obviously speculation as zos doesn't actually share data or any comprehensive explanation...

We have years of evidence what playing with procs + cross healing is like.

Tbh what bothers me more than anything is the developers act as they have no idea why performance is terrible. They act as if they have no idea why it's degraded or blame it on player activity, which basically hasn't changed.

We know they chucked loads of stuff server side so they could release ESO on stadia. They know putting it back would fix it. There was a stark difference in server responsiveness between u25 and the day before it released. Yet they act like it's something combat related and leave us like idiots to debate with each other without making any comment and in many cases just delete threads about it.

They make us keep doing ridiculous tests with no comment on their outcome and with very little reward for taking part.

It's been a year of this unbearable performance and it certainly wasn't amazing before that... It was at least playable most the time.

Can't we just drop stadia now and wait until a time a game this complex has supporting technology to warrant its transition? Can we at least test it?

I strongly agree with you.

Goregrinder

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

UntouchableHunter

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

Augusten15

Skander wrote: »

Procs are made to make the game easier for people without fingers. Click and win.


That's why this game will never be good in the first place.

Then why are you here?

Goregrinder

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

UntouchableHunter

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

IAmIcehouse

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

None of these are "Free". They all come at an opportunity cost.

Blood spawn is not free ultigen/armor. You are sacrificing not running Balorgh, or Velidreth, etc.

Viper is not free damage. Because you are sacrificing ~300 weapon damage to get that ,5, piece proc that you could get from a stat set.

Orc doesn't have "free" healing. You are sacrificing resistance/sustain that you would get from another race's passive.

Even broken proc sets like crimson/syvarra aren't "free". They just come at a bargain.

The only "free" stats in the game are your base stats. Everything else comes at a cost.

UntouchableHunter

.

UntouchableHunter

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

None of these are "Free". They all come at an opportunity cost.

Blood spawn is not free ultigen/armor. You are sacrificing not running Balorgh, or Velidreth, etc.

Viper is not free damage. Because you are sacrificing ~300 weapon damage to get that ,5, piece proc that you could get from a stat set.

Orc doesn't have "free" healing. You are sacrificing resistance/sustain that you would get from another race's passive.

Even broken proc sets like crimson/syvarra aren't "free". They just come at a bargain.

The only "free" stats in the game are your base stats. Everything else comes at a cost.

I completely agree with you.

I was just showing to Goregrinder that from his perspective all the other sets give us free something.

relentless_turnip

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

Bloodspawn does give you free mitigation and ult gen. The difference is that it doesn't kill or heal for you with no interaction with your skills. It may keep you alive a little longer via mitigation or give you enough ult to turn the fight around.

Balorgh is not free burst, it increases your damage based on a proc condition. It doesn't do the burst for you. You choose when you want to use it and when you think you can capatalize on it and use your skills to kill. It is free burst in combination with proc sets, but not on its own.

Orc is free healing, but you choose this over free mitigation, free recovery etc... You could have chose from other races.

These are just 3 examples of your statement and you have a point. Not one I think stands up when put into context though. You seem to insinuate that people are selective in what they define as "free" damage. When the difference is clear. The difference is one type increases your stats and gives you an increased opportunity to use your skills(an established RPG staple). The other literally plays for you, is literally free burst and free healing with no interaction with your skills.

Crimson just as a example automatically attacks and heals for you. This replaces two active presses a stat build would have to make. Balorgh, bloodspawn etc... Can't do that.

Most things can be labelled free if pulled into an debate such as this. The kind of "free" that verges on automating your gameplay can not be held against the kind of "free" that increase your stats IMO.

UntouchableHunter

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

Bloodspawn does give you free mitigation and ult gen. The difference is that it doesn't kill or heal for you with no interaction with your skills. It may keep you alive a little longer via mitigation or give you enough ult to turn the fight around.

Balorgh is not free burst, it increases your damage based on a proc condition. It doesn't do the burst for you. You choose when you want to use it and when you think you can capatalize on it and use your skills to kill. It is free burst in combination with proc sets, but not on its own.

Orc is free healing, but you choose this over free mitigation, free recovery etc... You could have chose from other races.

These are just 3 examples of your statement and you have a point. Not one I think stands up when put into context though. You seem to insinuate that people are selective in what they define as "free" damage. When the difference is clear. The difference is one type increases your stats and gives you an increased opportunity to use your skills(an established RPG staple). The other literally plays for you, is literally free burst and free healing with no interaction with your skills.

Crimson just as a example automatically attacks and heals for you. This replaces two active presses a stat build would have to make. Balorgh, bloodspawn etc... Can't do that.

Most things can be labelled free if pulled into an debate such as this. The kind of "free" that verges on automating your gameplay can not be held against the kind of "free" that increase your stats IMO.

You are right in one way.
But we have a lot of sets that the people call free damage but the interaction is the same of Barlogh for exemplo - CALURION. To use Barlogh you must need to press you ultimate and you make more damage that the ultimate alone.

Calurion is the same you make more damage when you crit.

In the end of the day they are the same because this sets give to you more damage.

About Crimson do you really think that 8k dmg in a 8 sec window that is really easy to avoid, is it something stronger that Barlogh? If you think that with respect disagree.

When you proc Barlogh some builds hit dswing around 16k and for a good amount of time. 11k tool tip it is a good one and after Barlogh you have this increase for a good amount of seconds in all others yours skills. You do to much more damage in a 8sec window that crimson.

Light attacks
Heavy attacks
Dswing
Executioner
Dawnbreaker
Subassault
Dots
Etc

So crimson proc will not kill anybody if you know who play you will not even be hitted by crimson, you don't get any damage the player don't get any heal you wait for Barlogh and burst the proc to hell.

relentless_turnip

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

Bloodspawn does give you free mitigation and ult gen. The difference is that it doesn't kill or heal for you with no interaction with your skills. It may keep you alive a little longer via mitigation or give you enough ult to turn the fight around.

Balorgh is not free burst, it increases your damage based on a proc condition. It doesn't do the burst for you. You choose when you want to use it and when you think you can capatalize on it and use your skills to kill. It is free burst in combination with proc sets, but not on its own.

Orc is free healing, but you choose this over free mitigation, free recovery etc... You could have chose from other races.

These are just 3 examples of your statement and you have a point. Not one I think stands up when put into context though. You seem to insinuate that people are selective in what they define as "free" damage. When the difference is clear. The difference is one type increases your stats and gives you an increased opportunity to use your skills(an established RPG staple). The other literally plays for you, is literally free burst and free healing with no interaction with your skills.

Crimson just as a example automatically attacks and heals for you. This replaces two active presses a stat build would have to make. Balorgh, bloodspawn etc... Can't do that.

Most things can be labelled free if pulled into an debate such as this. The kind of "free" that verges on automating your gameplay can not be held against the kind of "free" that increase your stats IMO.

You are right in one way.
But we have a lot of sets that the people call free damage but the interaction is the same of Barlogh for exemplo - CALURION. To use Barlogh you must need to press you ultimate and you make more damage that the ultimate alone.

Calurion is the same you make more damage when you crit.

In the end of the day they are the same because this sets give to you more damage.

About Crimson do you really think that 8k dmg in a 8 sec window that is really easy to avoid, is it something stronger that Barlogh? If you think that with respect disagree.

When you proc Barlogh some builds hit dswing around 16k and for a good amount of time. 11k tool tip it is a good one and after Barlogh you have this increase for a good amount of seconds in all others yours skills. You do to much more damage in a 8sec window that crimson.

Light attacks
Heavy attacks
Dswing
Executioner
Dawnbreaker
Subassault
Dots
Etc

So crimson proc will not kill anybody if you know who play you will not even be hitted by crimson, you don't get any damage the player don't get any heal you wait for Barlogh and burst the proc to hell.

Yes, but balorgh requires you to continue to keep pressing buttons after procing it to capatalize on the extra damage. That is where I define the difference. One set makes you more powerful and the other automates your damage. Proc damaging sets do not grant you more power to attack with, they do it for you. You can light attack weave with your heal and equate the same damage as someone on their front bar weaving offensive skills on a stat build.

You can also use balorgh on a proc build and not have to press any buttons to kill someone.... Again though the free damage is then coming from your proc sets and not from balorgh, balorgh has just increased all outgoing damage.

UntouchableHunter

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

Bloodspawn does give you free mitigation and ult gen. The difference is that it doesn't kill or heal for you with no interaction with your skills. It may keep you alive a little longer via mitigation or give you enough ult to turn the fight around.

Balorgh is not free burst, it increases your damage based on a proc condition. It doesn't do the burst for you. You choose when you want to use it and when you think you can capatalize on it and use your skills to kill. It is free burst in combination with proc sets, but not on its own.

Orc is free healing, but you choose this over free mitigation, free recovery etc... You could have chose from other races.

These are just 3 examples of your statement and you have a point. Not one I think stands up when put into context though. You seem to insinuate that people are selective in what they define as "free" damage. When the difference is clear. The difference is one type increases your stats and gives you an increased opportunity to use your skills(an established RPG staple). The other literally plays for you, is literally free burst and free healing with no interaction with your skills.

Crimson just as a example automatically attacks and heals for you. This replaces two active presses a stat build would have to make. Balorgh, bloodspawn etc... Can't do that.

Most things can be labelled free if pulled into an debate such as this. The kind of "free" that verges on automating your gameplay can not be held against the kind of "free" that increase your stats IMO.

You are right in one way.
But we have a lot of sets that the people call free damage but the interaction is the same of Barlogh for exemplo - CALURION. To use Barlogh you must need to press you ultimate and you make more damage that the ultimate alone.

Calurion is the same you make more damage when you crit.

In the end of the day they are the same because this sets give to you more damage.

About Crimson do you really think that 8k dmg in a 8 sec window that is really easy to avoid, is it something stronger that Barlogh? If you think that with respect disagree.

When you proc Barlogh some builds hit dswing around 16k and for a good amount of time. 11k tool tip it is a good one and after Barlogh you have this increase for a good amount of seconds in all others yours skills. You do to much more damage in a 8sec window that crimson.

Light attacks
Heavy attacks
Dswing
Executioner
Dawnbreaker
Subassault
Dots
Etc

So crimson proc will not kill anybody if you know who play you will not even be hitted by crimson, you don't get any damage the player don't get any heal you wait for Barlogh and burst the proc to hell.

Yes, but balorgh requires you to continue to keep pressing buttons after procing it to capatalize on the extra damage. That is where I define the difference. One set makes you more powerful and the other automates your damage. Proc damaging sets do not grant you more power to attack with, they do it for you. You can light attack weave with your heal and equate the same damage as someone on their front bar weaving offensive skills on a stat build.

You can also use balorgh on a proc build and not have to press any buttons to kill someone.... Again though the free damage is then coming from your proc sets and not from balorgh, balorgh has just increased all outgoing damage.

I think Barlogh does not effect proc sets, only the CP.
Anyway I respect your opinion and I think you have a good point. I don't agree but I respect your point of view.

relentless_turnip

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

I do not mind proc sets that give you stats at all since that is still dependant on the player to use the stats he gets to kill his enemy but the free damage sets are stupid and then zos decided it would be smart to nerf statbased sets and buff procs..... most idiotic change ever.... for real damage and healing procs should be deleted because they add nothing to the game except a toxic meta

Yup. If the damage only happens when the player manually casts certain spells and abilities in a specific order, then we're all good regardless of how their stats were padded. The player still has to land their burst combo correctly and connect with enough damage to kill someone.

But sets that say "hey man you relax, kick your feet up...take a break, I'll do some damage for you....go bake a cake or read a book, I got you!" are the sets that raise the skill floor too close to the skill ceiling, and are no good. They're essentially training wheels for people who don't know how to land burst combos. Like aim assist for console shooters. It's the game literally assisting the player in doing damage without the player having to provide any input.

Now the problem isn't the proc sets themselves, because I am a firm believer of having as many playstyle choice available to players, proc sets being one of them. The problem is that there are no direct counters to proc sets available right now, so people try to counter proc sets with other proc sets and it becomes a game of players moving their characters in position, so the game can deal damage for them.

If you get dotted, you can either out heal the damage and wait for them to wear off, OR you can purge them. Or you die. Purging them requires you to slot a purge ability on one of your bars or run a set that can purge for you (proc purge). So purge is a direct counter to negative effects. Defile is a direct counter to health recovery. Then you have counters to movement speed, stat recoveries, even reduction in health abilities, etc. But there needs to be an ability or potion or poison or something that can counter proc sets, so players who choose to run non-proc sets can run a proc-set counter.

Something that gives immunity to proc set damage or effects for like 4 seconds or something that disables a players proc set activation for like 8 seconds or something.

Some proc already have their own counters.

For exemplo

1- grodthar
- 5 sec proc - 5 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters - does not affect you when you are outside the area

2 - zaan
- 6 sec proc - 15 sec disable if I remember
- must proc by light attack 33% chance
- tether effect 8 meters

3- Crimson
- proc after 2 sec - 10 sec disable
- area effect 8 meters
- delay damage everybody can see and is really easy to avoid

All this procs are really easy to avoid and they are the procs that most people are complaining about.

If you are dying for this type of proc sets the problem are not the procs the problem is you wana to stay immovable in front of something so easy to avoid.

Two of the sets you mention are very overtuned right now. The only thing holding Za'an back from being the meta at the moment is the required crit to proc. In a non Malacath meta this set would be insanely strong. Downtime on a set is also not nessicarily a counter. There are a ton of strong sets with long downtimes that are really strong. Mechanical Acuity, Balrogh's and Clever Alchemist are all really good examples.

Crimison is also not very easy to avoid. Especially in a large scale pvp environment which is where it is mainly used. Hitting 4-6 people is enough to heal you to full without and often times you can just run into a zerg and it doesn't matter who blocks or not. This set also isn't stopped by a negate and defile doesn't really take it's toll since it can technically scale infinitely. All you need to do is to stand there and block. You can line of sight and hit people with it, while they can't damage you.

That's also not mention the Unfathomable Darkness, the 2h weapon, and the destro from vateshran hollows are all unpurgable dots. All three of these sets quickly became the meta this winter. All three of these sets have no true counter. The 2h requires being within melee range but usually if you are comboing off this sword you are in melee range and this proc is proccing off a medium attack which is ccing the enemy. The destro is supposedly kitable or stops after line of sight is broken but there is an insane number of obstacles that don't break this beam. Especially in BGs. Unfathomable isn't the best in group pvp but is really strong in 1v1s. This is even without the hurricane bug.

You sir are living in a land of delusion if you believe that procs have counterplay. Most of them don't. They are free damage meant to make killing veteran players easier for newer players but in reality all they do is create a meta where veteran players can stack more survivability and sustain and to create PVP characters that are essentially Trial Bosses. It drags out fights because nobody dies and it creates a meta that is actually really hostile for newer or less experienced players as they are forced to ride the meta or die to these god like builds.

From what I have seen the loss of procs has really even the playing field. Only three sets on the list come from dungeons meaning pretty much all of the meta sets are readily accessible for newer players, they are more stat based which makes playing easier as players don't need to invest as much into sustain and a lot of the overtuned sets leveraged by really good players are not available to them. The Major/Minor buffs were brought into check, we don't have everybody and their grandmother running arround with BRP Dual Wield Major Protection Stam builds. Sure some classes are really overtuned atm, some classes really lack a complete kit but this test is probably the single most well balanced Cyrodil we have seen in years.

Yep, there is no direct hard counter to procs other than "well...just roll doge out of Grothdarr man!..." which is not a direct counter. A direct counter would be a way to stop a proc from happening or reduce it's effectiveness, neither of which currently exist in ESO, and that is the real problem. And I'm also surprised he did not mention Unfathaomable, that set is hitting like a truck right now without the player needing to do anything at all...ZOS takes the wheel for you and say "alright bud, go take a 5 minute break I got you loop!".

You don't have grodthar up all the time. The set is disabled for 5 sec.
You are not seeing everybody running grodthar. So grodthar is not meta anywhere.

People are saying proc sets are meta, but when we discuss the sets and the situations we see that the procs and any other sets can be Meta depending of the situation.

You said you are surprised because I didn't mention Unfathomable. Why I shouldn't?

This sets is not meta for me.

You will never run this set if you play 1vX.
You will never run this set if you play ball groups.
You will never will run this set in BG unless you are the kind of player to look for duels in bgs.

Maybe you would say that it is a good set for duels, ok it is you opinion but for me it is not a good set for duels.

So why I should mention a set that I don't use and don't give any problem in when I fight somebody using it.

Meta in my opinion it is dswing and Executioner.

EVERY stamina players it is running it.
And the answer is: because the class abilitys are not so good. We can discuss about that the fact is dswing and Executioner it is the meta with or without procs. And we don't have one especially proc set that is meta in Cyrodill.

If somebody think that exist one é especially proc set that is meta put here on the table and let's discuss about that.

But I must say one thing, in bgs when we have a coordenated group that knows how play with procs it is really hard to deal with.

In my opinion we could have at least a no proc BG. So you can choose if you wana play procs or not.

More population splitting is not the answer. Hard counters are. Imagine if ZOS implemented a "Shield" Cyrodiil campaign and a "Shield less" campaign when everyone complained about shield stacking back in 2015, you remember that right? It would have made no sense. Instead, they introduced a hard counter to shields via oblivion damage.

They just need to add a poison that can reduce proc effectiveness on an enemy player, just like poisons applying defile, or reducing an enemy player's recoveries, or movement speed.

Could be. But we are seeing people in the forum that wana proc sets banned from the game. Because they wana only one playstile that they thing is the only fair playstile.

I already told, if they wana this let's reduce the game in on class with on set and the same skills lol.

I prefer the diversity of sets and plastyle. In my opinion a really good player is a player that adapted to during the patch changes and not the player that still wana play like he was in the patch 1.

I also want to retain diversity in the game, but I also don't want to lower the skill ceiling when it comes to PVP. Having ZOS deal damage for you does help PVP newbies, but procs really only benefit them. Skilled players running proc builds is still at the end of the day ZOS dealing damage for them, which lowers the skill ceiling as it is essentially an RNG element. Some form of RNG element is going to exist in any PVP game, but procs account for like 30-40% of damage or healing, and with no way to counter them, that is too high imo.

That's why I don't think removing procs from the game is the answer, as I am a fan of more options, not less. They just need to give the skilled players a way to directly counter a proc build, should they choose to add it into their build.

Imagine if we were all in a bowling tournament, an a newbie to bowling shows up and wants to compete. Fine, it's open to anyone right? But the tourney organizers know he's going to get deleted hard, so they allow him to use bumpers on his lane to give him a "fighting chance". But that sort of undermines the years of practice and experience some of the other players have, as the advantage they worked hard to obtain, has now just been nullified. So what do the experienced bowlers do? Well they put bumpers in their lanes too. Now it's no longer a game of "if" we can hit the pins, it's a game of "when" we all hit the pins. The bumpers are now doing the work for us, we just have to throw the ball down the lane blind folded.

That's what happened with proc sets, good players essentially just said "if you can't beat em join em", and are counter other proc builds with a proc build. But that turns into ZOS damage vs ZOS damage instead of player vs player. PVP in any game usually wants the Rock-Paper-Scissors counter-balance between all of the things you can do. It's never perfect, but that's the idea. Procs without a counter pretty much turns PVP into a Rock-Rock-Rock meta.

My opinion about free stuffs

Bloodspawn gives you free damage mitigation and free ultimates

Barlogh gives you free burst damage

Orc gives you free healing

Viper set gives you free dmg

So we already had a lot of free stuffs before the "proc sets" actually we already had proc sets before the "proc sets" and in my opinion good players still better then bad players even with proc sets.

I will only support any change about proc sets when we have a minimum balance between the the classe and between Magicka and stamina in pvp.

I can get my Stamblade and Stamdk and have fun withou "proc sets" but still procs because I use NMA, Seventh, Bloodspawn or Barlogh I me and others players says that I don't play with Proc... BS They are procs sets and give me free weapon damage, free mitigation, free health recovery and I can hit dswing, dswing leap and execute with Barlogh free damage and I think I'm skilled and experienced players because that.

But whan I go to my magnecro or my magdk this sets don't help this classes. Doesn't matter how experienced or skilled I'm this classes can't compete at the same level withou the "other procs sets" that some people hate here.

Bloodspawn does give you free mitigation and ult gen. The difference is that it doesn't kill or heal for you with no interaction with your skills. It may keep you alive a little longer via mitigation or give you enough ult to turn the fight around.

Balorgh is not free burst, it increases your damage based on a proc condition. It doesn't do the burst for you. You choose when you want to use it and when you think you can capatalize on it and use your skills to kill. It is free burst in combination with proc sets, but not on its own.

Orc is free healing, but you choose this over free mitigation, free recovery etc... You could have chose from other races.

These are just 3 examples of your statement and you have a point. Not one I think stands up when put into context though. You seem to insinuate that people are selective in what they define as "free" damage. When the difference is clear. The difference is one type increases your stats and gives you an increased opportunity to use your skills(an established RPG staple). The other literally plays for you, is literally free burst and free healing with no interaction with your skills.

Crimson just as a example automatically attacks and heals for you. This replaces two active presses a stat build would have to make. Balorgh, bloodspawn etc... Can't do that.

Most things can be labelled free if pulled into an debate such as this. The kind of "free" that verges on automating your gameplay can not be held against the kind of "free" that increase your stats IMO.

You are right in one way.
But we have a lot of sets that the people call free damage but the interaction is the same of Barlogh for exemplo - CALURION. To use Barlogh you must need to press you ultimate and you make more damage that the ultimate alone.

Calurion is the same you make more damage when you crit.

In the end of the day they are the same because this sets give to you more damage.

About Crimson do you really think that 8k dmg in a 8 sec window that is really easy to avoid, is it something stronger that Barlogh? If you think that with respect disagree.

When you proc Barlogh some builds hit dswing around 16k and for a good amount of time. 11k tool tip it is a good one and after Barlogh you have this increase for a good amount of seconds in all others yours skills. You do to much more damage in a 8sec window that crimson.

Light attacks
Heavy attacks
Dswing
Executioner
Dawnbreaker
Subassault
Dots
Etc

So crimson proc will not kill anybody if you know who play you will not even be hitted by crimson, you don't get any damage the player don't get any heal you wait for Barlogh and burst the proc to hell.

Yes, but balorgh requires you to continue to keep pressing buttons after procing it to capatalize on the extra damage. That is where I define the difference. One set makes you more powerful and the other automates your damage. Proc damaging sets do not grant you more power to attack with, they do it for you. You can light attack weave with your heal and equate the same damage as someone on their front bar weaving offensive skills on a stat build.

You can also use balorgh on a proc build and not have to press any buttons to kill someone.... Again though the free damage is then coming from your proc sets and not from balorgh, balorgh has just increased all outgoing damage.

I think Barlogh does not effect proc sets, only the CP.
Anyway I respect your opinion and I think you have a good point. I don't agree but I respect your point of view.

It does because it increases your penetration by 23 for every ultimate spent.

No worries 👍