from my point of view, meridia is evil!

wolfbone

and there is no saving or form of redemption for those who willingly worship her and her evil ways.
no redemption for those who willingly make a deal with the shining ***.
those who speak positively of that wretch, clearly never lost anyone or saw how evil she truly is.

Urzigurumash

Hear, hear! Restore the Temple of Abagarlas!

TQSkull

From my point of view the Jedi are evil.

VaranisArano

She's a solidly mixed bag for mortals. On the one hand, vampires and other undead are a pretty existential threat to life on Nirn, whether its the Planemeld or the Bloodcursed Sun. On the other, she is as fickle with her favor as any Daedric Prince and doesn't exactly have the good of any particular mortal in mind - see the abandonment of her worshippers and the treatment of her seeming champion. Also she doesn't really match up well with what we'd consider "good" in overall terms either - she's worshipped by the Ayleids, who were notoriously brutal to their slaves and her champion, Umaril, later shows up in TES IV slaughtering Aedric priests.

That being said, we're sort of grading on a curve with Daedric Princes. Compared to "I will remake the cosmos in my image" Nocturnal, "All your knowledge belongs to me" Hermaeus Mora, "All your Nirn belongs to me" Mehrunes Dagon, "All your Nirn and your souls belong to me" Molag Bal, "How can I screw you over on this deal?" Clavicus Vile, and "I'll be your worst nightmare" Vaermina...

Meridia ends up looking like one of the better daedra, assuming you don't pay too close attention to the finer details of what she actually does.

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

wolfbone

VaranisArano wrote: »

She's a solidly mixed bag for mortals. On the one hand, vampires and other undead are a pretty existential threat to life on Nirn, whether its the Planemeld or the Bloodcursed Sun. On the other, she is as fickle with her favor as any Daedric Prince and doesn't exactly have the good of any particular mortal in mind - see the abandonment of her worshippers and the treatment of her seeming champion. Also she doesn't really match up well with what we'd consider "good" in overall terms either - she's worshipped by the Ayleids, who were notoriously brutal to their slaves and her champion, Umaril, later shows up in TES IV slaughtering Aedric priests.

That being said, we're sort of grading on a curve with Daedric Princes. Compared to "I will remake the cosmos in my image" Nocturnal, "All your knowledge belongs to me" Hermaeus Mora, "All your Nirn belongs to me" Mehrunes Dagon, "All your Nirn and your souls belong to me" Molag Bal, "How can I screw you over on this deal?" Clavicus Vile, and "I'll be your worst nightmare" Vaermina...

Meridia ends up looking like one of the better daedra, assuming you don't pay too close attention to the finer details of what she actually does.

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

well the tribunal are imposters! heretics! they deserve to suffer!

Iccotak

wolfbone wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

She's a solidly mixed bag for mortals. On the one hand, vampires and other undead are a pretty existential threat to life on Nirn, whether its the Planemeld or the Bloodcursed Sun. On the other, she is as fickle with her favor as any Daedric Prince and doesn't exactly have the good of any particular mortal in mind - see the abandonment of her worshippers and the treatment of her seeming champion. Also she doesn't really match up well with what we'd consider "good" in overall terms either - she's worshipped by the Ayleids, who were notoriously brutal to their slaves and her champion, Umaril, later shows up in TES IV slaughtering Aedric priests.

That being said, we're sort of grading on a curve with Daedric Princes. Compared to "I will remake the cosmos in my image" Nocturnal, "All your knowledge belongs to me" Hermaeus Mora, "All your Nirn belongs to me" Mehrunes Dagon, "All your Nirn and your souls belong to me" Molag Bal, "How can I screw you over on this deal?" Clavicus Vile, and "I'll be your worst nightmare" Vaermina...

Meridia ends up looking like one of the better daedra, assuming you don't pay too close attention to the finer details of what she actually does.

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

well the tribunal are imposters! heretics! they deserve to suffer!

Sotha Sil knows its coming and he basically insinuates that the three have it coming. He doesn't claim to be an omnipotent all-powerful god.
He just has enough of an understanding of the universe that he knows that despite all his power and knowledge - he is powerless before the tides of fate

TheImperfect

VaranisArano wrote: »

She's a solidly mixed bag for mortals. On the one hand, vampires and other undead are a pretty existential threat to life on Nirn, whether its the Planemeld or the Bloodcursed Sun. On the other, she is as fickle with her favor as any Daedric Prince and doesn't exactly have the good of any particular mortal in mind - see the abandonment of her worshippers and the treatment of her seeming champion. Also she doesn't really match up well with what we'd consider "good" in overall terms either - she's worshipped by the Ayleids, who were notoriously brutal to their slaves and her champion, Umaril, later shows up in TES IV slaughtering Aedric priests.

That being said, we're sort of grading on a curve with Daedric Princes. Compared to "I will remake the cosmos in my image" Nocturnal, "All your knowledge belongs to me" Hermaeus Mora, "All your Nirn belongs to me" Mehrunes Dagon, "All your Nirn and your souls belong to me" Molag Bal, "How can I screw you over on this deal?" Clavicus Vile, and "I'll be your worst nightmare" Vaermina...

Meridia ends up looking like one of the better daedra, assuming you don't pay too close attention to the finer details of what she actually does.

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

I've got the impression she encourages her followers to value life at all costs and to put their own life above everyone else's. To hell with anyone else save your own skin and forget self sacrifice or rescuing others. I'm not sure what gave me this idea though.

Lugaldu

In a certain way, Meridia is really more problematic, because you don't immediately know where you are with her (unlike other Princes with clearer intentions). The lack of transparency of ambivalent characters can lull the counterpart into a deceptive security and then bring them down in an unexpected moment. Fire can ensure survival or burn you. The ambiguity of Meridia is reminiscent of, for example, Mesopotamian goddesses such as Innana-Ishtar, who also combine different and sometimes completely opposite aspects.

VaranisArano

Iccotak wrote: »

wolfbone wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

She's a solidly mixed bag for mortals. On the one hand, vampires and other undead are a pretty existential threat to life on Nirn, whether its the Planemeld or the Bloodcursed Sun. On the other, she is as fickle with her favor as any Daedric Prince and doesn't exactly have the good of any particular mortal in mind - see the abandonment of her worshippers and the treatment of her seeming champion. Also she doesn't really match up well with what we'd consider "good" in overall terms either - she's worshipped by the Ayleids, who were notoriously brutal to their slaves and her champion, Umaril, later shows up in TES IV slaughtering Aedric priests.

That being said, we're sort of grading on a curve with Daedric Princes. Compared to "I will remake the cosmos in my image" Nocturnal, "All your knowledge belongs to me" Hermaeus Mora, "All your Nirn belongs to me" Mehrunes Dagon, "All your Nirn and your souls belong to me" Molag Bal, "How can I screw you over on this deal?" Clavicus Vile, and "I'll be your worst nightmare" Vaermina...

Meridia ends up looking like one of the better daedra, assuming you don't pay too close attention to the finer details of what she actually does.

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

well the tribunal are imposters! heretics! they deserve to suffer!

Sotha Sil knows its coming and he basically insinuates that the three have it coming. He doesn't claim to be an omnipotent all-powerful god.
He just has enough of an understanding of the universe that he knows that despite all his power and knowledge - he is powerless before the tides of fate

I found his cameo in Summerset to be absolutely hilarious because of this.

Spoilers for the end of Summerset:

At the 11th hour, you meet with the Psijics, Sotha Sil, and Mephala. There you find out you need a divine artifact to stop Nocturnal...but if you ask Sotha Sil because he's a God, right? He basically shrugs and says one will probably show up.

The sheer awkwardness of the situation for Sotha Sil, with Mephala (who knows exactly where his "divine" power comes from) standing right there ready to revoke her offer of help if he lies about it, really amused me.

My characters wouldn't necessarily have picked up on the subtle back-and-forth, but as a player who's played TES 3 and Tribunal, I thought it was perfect.

RedMuse

She's as uncaring about mortal and mortal life as any other Daedric Prince, it just happens that many of her goals coincides with goals that many mortals find beneficent so they see her as "good".

Slightly off topic but one thing I greatly enjoyed about Markarth was the alternate take the Reachmen have on some of the "evil" Princes. It drove home that whether a Prince is seen as good or bad is very much a cultural thing. The Princes themselves don't give a hoot but are all too happy to exploit any willingness mortals have to obey or serve them.

wolfbone

RedMuse wrote: »

She's as uncaring about mortal and mortal life as any other Daedric Prince, it just happens that many of her goals coincides with goals that many mortals find beneficent so they see her as "good".

Slightly off topic but one thing I greatly enjoyed about Markarth was the alternate take the Reachmen have on some of the "evil" Princes. It drove home that whether a Prince is seen as good or bad is very much a cultural thing. The Princes themselves don't give a hoot but are all too happy to exploit any willingness mortals have to obey or serve them.

she's evil! you are simply brainwashed by her sugar coated lies!

seriously through. she's nasty.
she even purges mortals of freewill.

worrallj

TQSkull wrote: »

From my point of view the Jedi are evil.

Exactly what I thought

Minyassa

Pretty much what you get when someone cares only about their own agenda and is incapable of bonding with anyone or anything besides that. It serves her to use buzzwords that would give humans the impression that she cares about people, because you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but she is as self-serving as any of them. She just doesn't have something overtly grotesque to humans as a driving trait like most of the other princes.

Krist

I read these notes and wonder what most must think of good and evil. Of course, one must be made aware, before you even read further, that "good" is not the opposite of "evil". Evil can be performed by even the most pure and selfless entity, without negating their title of being "good". Bringing evil upon ones enemy, when that enemy is performing acts detrimental to others. So yes, Meridia does bring evil, but no, she is not an embodiment of said evil. That can be possibly said of Molag Bal or Marhunes Dagon even, but I do submit that this thought process is debatable, even of these two.
Merid Nunda, like all entities, has a past, and just like mere mortals, her past has forged much of her present, if such terms of time can truly be said of the "divine". She does show favor, and disfavor. However, no, I cannot say that Merid Nunda, or Meridia as she is known by most, is evil. If she is evil, then mortals are evil, and thus deserves the fate that the Daedric Princes wish to force upon us.
Always bear in mind these entities are not gods, they are something else. As powerful as they are, they are not eternal, as they have a beginning of sorts, if the greater studies are true. Meridia, like most entities, simply pushes towards her own desires. Calling her evil, in my frame of thinking, merely makes her something more than she is. She, as all Daedric Princes, are simply less than we attribute to them. Make no mistake, I acknowledge their great power and intellect. No matter which Daedra one may choose to deal with or are forced to deal with, we must understand that they are dangerous, and a mere mortal is in danger of meeting their own mortality as long as a Daedra's attention is on them.

-Wizard Ro

Jamerth

I am an honest to Molag Bal daedra and i think The Vestige is evil!

xAarionx

wolfbone wrote: »

(So does Azura, which I find pretty funny. Like, sure, she's one of the Three Good Daedra because she taught the Chimer to be distinct from the Altmer and hone their gifts. She's super helpful to the Nerevarine. Awesome, right? Well, in the grand scheme of things, Azura is a stone-cold grudge-holder who, not being satisfied with cursing the Chimer/Dunmer, then curates the Nerevarine prophecies so that her chosen hero can bring Vvardenfell down around the Tribunal's ears and let the Three Good Daedra reclaim their place after the ashes of Red Year settle. That's playing the long game.)

Frankly, I couldn't care Less of what happens with The dunmer
It' is bad enough for me that they worsh both the litteral godess of deceit, conspiracy, treachery, and sedition (boethia)
And the godess of Lies, murder and secrets (mephala)
(Really... Trying to justify Oh, ther are not evil, you're being narrow-minded" is ridicullous. That domains that they rule over are completly evil in all ways, there's nothing to justify that.)

Not only that, they're slavers and frankly, with all wich the've done and how they treated other races along the eras, I can't help to find oddly satifying to see them completly screwed up in the 4E...
(really, the dummer civilization is a shadow of it's past self after the fall of baar dau and the eruption of red mountain...)

Just hoping to something similar happens to the altmer in the events ofter the Dragon Crisis...

On topic, Yes, meridia IS evil, she is most tolerable than other daedra, but in the end of events, she does not care about the humanity. she just uses them as tools to her goals, and when that tool has no other use, she discards it, just see what happened to Daurien.

Elendir2am

Meridia care for purity of life essence. This means that she cere for humanity in some way. However, she doesn’t care for individuals.

Idea that “Meridia is evil, because she doesn’t help people with their problems” or more accurate that “she is evil because she doesn’t help me with my problems”, is wrong. Why should she serve humanity? Is being servant of humanity some requirements for qualification on being good?

If somebody do good biding because of afterlife or PR, it can have selfish reason, but it is still better than alternative. People who mark Meridi as good, do it because she did good things from their point of view and point of view of majority life being at the Nirn.

xAarionx

Elendir2am wrote: »

Meridia care for purity of life essence. This means that she cere for humanity in some way. However, she doesn’t care for individuals.

Idea that “Meridia is evil, because she doesn’t help people with their problems” or more accurate that “she is evil because she doesn’t help me with my problems”, is wrong. Why should she serve humanity? Is being servant of humanity some requirements for qualification on being good?

If somebody do good biding because of afterlife or PR, it can have selfish reason, but it is still better than alternative. People who mark Meridi as good, do it because she did good things from their point of view and point of view of majority life being at the Nirn.

The problem is this
you're Misinterpreting
If she does not care and keep't to herself that's one thing. But she does not

She uses humanity to her personal goals, sometimes, and only sometimes that goal align with humans goals (like in the planemeld.
But Make no mistake
She did it for herself and herself only
After her tool is no longer useful, she strips their idendity and turn it into souless machines with the only goal to serve her...
That's what make her evil.

Septimus_Magna

xAarionx wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Meridia care for purity of life essence. This means that she cere for humanity in some way. However, she doesn’t care for individuals.

Idea that “Meridia is evil, because she doesn’t help people with their problems” or more accurate that “she is evil because she doesn’t help me with my problems”, is wrong. Why should she serve humanity? Is being servant of humanity some requirements for qualification on being good?

If somebody do good biding because of afterlife or PR, it can have selfish reason, but it is still better than alternative. People who mark Meridi as good, do it because she did good things from their point of view and point of view of majority life being at the Nirn.

The problem is this
Is Misinterpreting
If she does not care and keep to herself that's one thing. But she does not

She uses humanity to her personal goals, sometimes, and only sometimes that goal align with humans goals (like in the planemeld.
But Make no mistake
She did it for herself and herself only
After her tool is no longer useful, she strips their idendity and turn it into souless machines with the only goal to serve her...
That's what make her evil.

Sounds a lot like my ex, maybe they're related

xAarionx

Another thinking to add to the discussion. It's hinted several times that she only rescued the vestige soul because she has interest on him

Molag Ball Hint's this in the colored rooms after your battle with him, saying "Did you knew that you're going to be dragged to this realm? did she told you about her plan to do that?"
And honestly, Molag ball may be many things, But he does not strike me as a liar

And If you met Sheogorath in Cyrodil after the planemeld is done he will say "O look who's got his soul back, oh, and thats meridia scent? you've been being a busy little vestige"

It's clear tha Meridia has a hold on the vestige, maybe she puts something is his soul to force him to come to her when she thinks the time is right

I my Headcannon I made My character appeal to Azura to remove the hold that meridia has on him
I think she is the only Deadra that MAY be a little more Trustworthy. she seems to at least care about her servants. Then again, thats huge MAY
Honestly my character only went to her becouse he was out of options. like myself, he does not trust Azura much more than meridia, but she appers to be a lesser evil.

Elendir2am

God of schemes is title for liar. Molag Ball would tell true, if it serve his purpose.
I never heard about any example of soulless machine, in cause of Meridia. Losing control over your destiny, is something, what suffered every TES hero, so I don’t see it as reason for “evil” label.

Meridia is contemptuous to humans in a way, most of humans are contemptuous to problem they don’t suffer directly, for example from nature domains. If cattle get ill, we would butcher herd to save other herds. If Meridia is evil, then are we all.

Otherwise, there are different Lore on way, Meridia departed from Aedras. It is question of which of them to take as canonic.

xAarionx

Elendir2am wrote: »

God of schemes is title for liar. Molag Ball would tell true, if it serve his purpose.
I never heard about any example of soulless machine, in cause of Meridia. Losing control over your destiny, is something, what suffered every TES hero, so I don’t see it as reason for “evil” label.

Meridia is contemptuous to humans in a way, most of humans are contemptuous to problem they don’t suffer directly, for example from nature domains. If cattle get ill, we would butcher herd to save other herds. If Meridia is evil, then are we all.

Otherwise, there are different Lore on way, Meridia departed from Aedras. It is question of which of them to take as canonic.

Schemes does not translate directly to liar
You can create schemes without lying, in fact that would be a much more dangerous scheme, and show more strenght and skill.

But, alhough I do Agree that Varen Aquelarius calls him "The greatest betrayer" I still think he's telling the thruth about Meridia.

Also "people are contemptuous to problem thay don't suffer directly"
That's a straight up lie, and shows a lack of understanding of humanity in general. People are often compassionate to otter people suffering, even if they can't understand it or relate to it. Some people close themselves to that by only have an eye for his own problems, and those self-centered persons are seen as, well, [insert bad word here].

Also, what may happen to the vestige is beyond "losing control of destiny. Meridia Leterally strips their servarts of their Identity, their individuality (Thats what i meant with "Souless machines", it's not leterrally without soul, but a figure of speech) Just for them to become better servants, That's a pretty evil thing to do.

Thats why she IS evil, or ant minimum, a self-centered [Insert bad word here]

Krist

I read this over and again I must confess it appears even the intellectuals of this argument are missing one vital piece of this puzzle we call Meridia, she is not above humanlike emotions, no matter what we, or she, may ponder. She may not be mortal, but neither is the vampire, or the lich, yet, we judge her as someone who should be above.
Does she push towards her own goals? Of course she does, as do mortals. Does she choose when to become involved or not involved based on her best interests? Yes, she does, as do mortals. You would need to consider her more than what she truly is to consider her evil, as the discussion apparently chooses to define the word.
That is ridiculous. Is the human baby evil for only wanting to suckle? Is the most pious of elfkin evil because doing a "good deed" made them feel good about themselves? If she is evil, then please, let us define good. I find it all but impossible to say that any act of "good" is not in itself, in part, an act of self interest. The self interest being that performing the act of good releases a feeling of good within ourselves.
Some of the most revered mortals that we hold up as heroes have lead others, willing and some not willing, into battles to defend what? Land? Home? Even those acts of heroism that causes us to sing their praises are truly acts of self interest, simply self interests that we agree upon.
As one wrote in one of the many scribbled scrolls, perhaps Meridia acts with self interest, yet, one may find themselves very hard pressed to find another that does not act in self interest, even if ones self interest is the betterment of another.
None of this is to take away from the heroes of our tales, I share admiration for many of them myself. It is not to lift Meridia up, or put her down, but to simply, yet again, make my point that to consider her some great evil in the bigger scheme of things, is to give her much too much credit. The daedric princes are powerful, but mortals of Nirn have time and again risen above them. They seek our help, it seems, as much or more than mortals seek theirs. I scoff at the concept, for I have never created a weapon that I needed a champion to carry. Indeed, I create my own weapons, scrolls, and potions, and never once needed someone else to wield them. We defy their goals all the time, so why are we lifting any of the princes higher than they should be?
Powerful? Yes, very. However, they are not above mortals, who rise in comparably short life spans, to meet and defeat these overpowered and puffed up scamps.
So why do we consider them evil for merely seeking their own best interests? There are none good, nay not one, if that is the case.

-Wizard Ro

Sinlar

When dealing with primal archetypes of a cosmic nature, such as the Aedra and Daedra represent.
It becomes this one believes, more a matter of resonance and attunement with the basic primal cosmic forces that weave the Aurbis, than mortal interpretations of good and evil.

The range of possibilities and probabilities in these regards that cosmic beings could engage in, far exceed anything that mortal minds would ever desire or be capable of considering.

It would be extremely foolish to assume that any of these beings can be interacted with in any manner that will not, first and foremost benefit them. It may also benefit the mortal, but that is most likely to be a secondary consequence of that sequence of events.

If this one recalls correctly, in one of the Pelinal stories, he is referred to as a "God Guiser".
This term strikes Khajiit as being an appropriate one for all these beings.