Is Mist Form going to get a nerf or what?

silver1surfer69

I hope you record these fights zos where ppl are staying minutes in mistform with single seconds breaks in between and are chased by whole crowds of ppl forever and just laugh. Its atm the most broken thing in the game. Totally destroyes combat and skill in fighting. If this stays like it, as a pvper u have to get mistform or logg out. This is ridicolous, i really hope you loose a lot of players and subscribers because of this! Its an insult to pvp itself!

dcmgti

Or you could just ignore someone. Builds that sustain mist for long periods of time don't have damage. Just like the 50-60k hp perma block tanks and it takes 20+ people to kill them. You are feeding their ego by trying to fight them so just ignore them. Why waste time on them?

Its also not the most "broken thing in the game". And someone getting mist form is not a counter to mist form.

People probably wouldn't run mist if procs didn't scale with malacath, solo players didn't get zerged down, the incredible amount of proc sets that are stacked with malacath, the insane amount of stealth snipe spammers, lightning heavy attack builds that do 10-13k per tick, crazy amount of snares/immobilizations/fears/stuns(including everyone running escapist poisons), the lack of cc immunity, non working cc break and the crazy amount of people running the vate staff(including stam builds now).

Mist is somewhat of a counter to these things when it works. I actually prefered race against time because its reliable but no mitigation from all the incoming damage in this patch. I use it to kite/LOS when needed on magplar, a class known for lacking mobility. Sometimes it actually activates, sometimes I die in mist, sometimes i die while spamming the button and it doesn't activate. I can't stay in mist long because I don't want to give up damage/healing on my magplar.

techyeshic

Not even in my top 5 off issues. Maybe not in my top 10.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

It’s a catch 22. If you want to do enough damage to kill an “unkillable” player then you need to make sacrifices to your own build. If, for example, you are running a bunch of impen then you are leaving potential damage on the table.

If your reply is “I could never PvP without good defenses”, well that the exact reason why other people run mist form.

At the end of the day you 100% absolutely can kill any “unkillable” players with any CP810 toon in any class. You just might not be able to do it without going off meta.

Ruling: No Nerf Needed, Change Your Build

Note: I used to run Mist Form before it was cool like 4 years ago. I haven’t in at least 2 years because there are definitely better options if you look and get creative.

dcmgti

I use it depending on what I'm doing. Generally I prefer race against time, like I said its reliable. But mist itself is fine and definitely has a place in my build and is extremely useful in certain situations.

Anyone that has those troll block builds, perma mist builds, 60k hp wardens....I just keep on going. Its simply not worth the effort to kill them.

Grimlok_S

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

It’s a catch 22. If you want to do enough damage to kill an “unkillable” player then you need to make sacrifices to your own build. If, for example, you are running a bunch of impen then you are leaving potential damage on the table.

If your reply is “I could never PvP without good defenses”, well that the exact reason why other people run mist form.

At the end of the day you 100% absolutely can kill any “unkillable” players with any CP810 toon in any class. You just might not be able to do it without going off meta.

Ruling: No Nerf Needed, Change Your Build

Note: I used to run Mist Form before it was cool like 4 years ago. I haven’t in at least 2 years because there are definitely better options if you look and get creative.

The big brain move is using Mist form AND Divines/Lover Mundus

No need for other defences, just go 3x cost redux jewellery, Vat Staff and Zaan.

geonsocal

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I hope you record these fights zos where ppl are staying minutes in mistform with single seconds breaks in between and are chased by whole crowds of ppl forever and just laugh. Its atm the most broken thing in the game. Totally destroyes combat and skill in fighting. If this stays like it, as a pvper u have to get mistform or logg out. This is ridicolous, i really hope you loose a lot of players and subscribers because of this! Its an insult to pvp itself!

why would whole crowds of people chase after a single kiting player?

I understand folks get frustrated with pvp - doesn't matter what game it is, just nerdy competition...

but, if you think all your pvp woes can be erased with one skill or set, that's silly...

Rhaegar75

it's the usual issue..the skill, per se, is not outrageous...however when you start pairing it with various other cheesy options and cost reduction it becomes a overbearing joke to deal with

ivramirez

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I hope you record these fights zos where ppl are staying minutes in mistform with single seconds breaks in between and are chased by whole crowds of ppl forever and just laugh. Its atm the most broken thing in the game. Totally destroyes combat and skill in fighting. If this stays like it, as a pvper u have to get mistform or logg out. This is ridicolous, i really hope you loose a lot of players and subscribers because of this! Its an insult to pvp itself!

We are recording the mist form cases for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg&feature=emb_logo

dcmgti

ivramirez wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I hope you record these fights zos where ppl are staying minutes in mistform with single seconds breaks in between and are chased by whole crowds of ppl forever and just laugh. Its atm the most broken thing in the game. Totally destroyes combat and skill in fighting. If this stays like it, as a pvper u have to get mistform or logg out. This is ridicolous, i really hope you loose a lot of players and subscribers because of this! Its an insult to pvp itself!

We are recording the mist form cases for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg&feature=emb_logo

And this proves what? That a person used mist to kite from others in a relatively small area? Whats wrong with that? If someone just sprints they can easy catch the one in mist.

wheem_ESO

ivramirez wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I hope you record these fights zos where ppl are staying minutes in mistform with single seconds breaks in between and are chased by whole crowds of ppl forever and just laugh. Its atm the most broken thing in the game. Totally destroyes combat and skill in fighting. If this stays like it, as a pvper u have to get mistform or logg out. This is ridicolous, i really hope you loose a lot of players and subscribers because of this! Its an insult to pvp itself!

We are recording the mist form cases for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg&feature=emb_logo

This will be the third thread where I point out that there was no effort whatsoever put into chasing the Mist Forming dedicated healer in this video. Just spamming Cripple while sitting on high amounts of Stam and not sprinting, not gap closing, not using any real damaging abilities.

I'm open to the idea that cost reduction enchants need a changed interaction with Mist Form, but the baseline ability doesn't need a nerf. Certainly not when some builds can dodge spam nearly as much as is currently possible, and without gutting their damage at the same time.

Dracane

Whoever even thought giving it 75% mitigation was necessary? Wouldn't 40% be sufficient?

Fawn4287

Imagine playing any other type of game and the accepted approach to someone was just ignore them, they deliberately made themselves invincible, which makes it especially bad given that goal to win in cyrodil and all except 1 battleground mode is to survive and cap zones, flags and objectives 😂😂. You can’t even use mods to do that in most games yet that is just an acceptable build and playstyle in this game. Really shows you 1. The games terrible balance based on the PvP overall design and 2. The total lack of skill it takes to be able to survive. People complain about proc sets, broken and over powered damage skills etc. but when you see someone tanking 4 people like its nothing in BGs holding block on their warden tank, howling back to full health on their werewolf, cloaking through a zerg on their stamblade or sitting in mistform whilst half a dozen players beat down on their magplar, you have to wonder was damage ever actually the issue or was it always survivability?

Weesacs

Yeah let's nerf the only decent thing about a vampire (which, doesn't even work most of the time in battle anyway).

I'm up for swapping mist form if vampires get the following:

- flat out 10k resistances (no scaling mitigation)
- excellent burst heal (no drain ability)
- extended vampire scion ability
- gap closer
- debuff abilities
- 15% magicka regen
- 18% spell damage increase

Nah, combined, that all sounds OP me.

In fact, I'd be up for swapping mist form if it's replaced with streak or instant stealth ability.

Deal?

Or we just gutting vampire more here without actually looking at the bigger picture that vampire just outright sucks atm (excuse the pun).

If you honestly cant deal with a vampire who uses mist form or you think this makes the top five issues in PvP then there are bigger problems going on.

deleted220701-004865

Decimus

If proc sets and Xv1 weren't so strong right now people wouldn't feel compelled to use the only ability that lets them survive that. The skill is problematically powerful right now, but so are the game balance issues it resolves.

Fix 3-4 proc set gap close spamming 4-man stacks, then rebalance mist form.


Anything else is a recipe for another kind of a disaster.

techyeshic

Decimus wrote: »

If proc sets and Xv1 weren't so strong right now people wouldn't feel compelled to use the only ability that lets them survive that. The skill is problematically powerful right now, but so are the game balance issues it resolves.

Fix 3-4 proc set gap close spamming 4-man stacks, then rebalance mist form.


Anything else is a recipe for another kind of a disaster.

I suspect a lot of the complaints come from people that cannot just proc others to death.

katorga

I you have Mistform, then you are not a Werewolf, which is more powerful.

It is just another variation of the same proc meta. Meta1: high health, health-based heals, procs. Meta2: Mistform, cost reduction, procs. Meta3: werewolf, procs. In theory, a High Elf Necro will be sitting at ~88% raw damage reduction in Mist, while his Vateshran Destro, Crimson, and whatnot are proc'ing on you.

Or, you use Mistform to counter the current meta, as a defensive tool, which is more viable for people still trying to go against the meta with stat builds, go into mist and let your health regen counter all the incoming proc damage. This is the most likely reason people want it nerfed.

NordSwordnBoard

If you really hate mistform, use Oblivion damage on them.

ivramirez

he he he, mist form with 75% damage reduction with 100% up time and no cost, yes no COST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRuJ9r0JTxQ

HiImRex

I think there's a few players in this thread who are frustrated because they don't really understand how mistform builds work.

The FIX for mistform is easy. Give the skill a scaling cost increase that begins on the 3rd tick, mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform and then the cost increase resets. If you re-enter mistform before those two seconds pass, cost continues to scale up.

Now, let me de-MIST-ify mistform for some of you.

@ivramirez please don't take this the wrong way but you keep saying cheeky stuff about mistform and reposting that one video over and over again but how about clips of you dominating in a mistform build in high MMR bgs or soloing cyrodil and successfully getting kills and getting away? Because I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

If you fully invest into it, Mistform is one of the most powerful defensive abilities in the game. But it also requires insane amount of investment to make it practical, and also is one of the most all-in defensive moves in terms of actual gameplay.

#1 the investment:

First, 3x infused cost reduction... this gets thrown around like it's not a big deal but this is actually a huge investment to make mistform work. You're giving up 1000 spell or weapon dmg after major brutality/sorcery which is on at all times with no conditions. This is the single BEST source of spell or weapon damage you can get in the game, and most good players find a way to get sustain elsewhere so they can use triple infused spell or weapon damage. It's pretty much impossible to get this back efficiently, which just means mistform builds by their very design have to give up a ton of damage they otherwise would have had.

"But wait, what about procs doing damage for you with Malacath?"

Proc Malacath builds WITH eternal vigor also run triple infused damage glyphs on jewelry. On my stam sorc, I get to have 4k+ weapon damage AND vat 2h with malacath and it will melt people infinitely faster than my mistform vat ele magplar and have better sustain and more practical survivability with streak and speed.

Second, investing into HP regen... if you think that slapping on 1 random HP recov set gets you enough tankiness in mistform to laugh while being chased by 4 people, you're wrong or those 4 people are weak. You want to actively min-mix your setup to achieve significantly beyond cap resistances and 4k+ hp recovery in mistform, but at the same time you'll still die to good players unless you're LOSing and coming out of mistform to cleanse and heal. (source: hours of actual BG experience)

If the HP recovery set is active on your front bar (the bar you do damage on), then you can't achieve max hp regen on your back bar, which means a fully min-maxed mistform build will have pretty much ZERO special defense on their front bar, which they need to be on in order to influence the match in any real way.

BTW, actually getting to 4-5k hp recov in your back bar requires a specific 5 piece + 3 more pieces + full armor pots... where's the stam sustain coming from? Answer: nowhere. If you can't come out of mistform, you might as well not exist. If you don't have stamina to break free or block, you can't come out of mistform. If you use tripots for stam, you can't tank nearly as much as you ideally would want to.

Which brings us to the next point:

#2 the most one-dimensional defensive ability in the game:

If you want to be tanky and still be able to ... you know, DO stuff, building for block tanking is WAY better than mistform (I know this because I have played both styles extensively). You see, if a player is staying in mistform, he might as well not exist in the game.

"IT COSTS NOTHING" but you're also at best reginning 100 magicka per second, with very low regen on your character sheet to begin with, and probably using hp + armor pots, which means staying in Mistform ONLY ensures you live and absolutely nothing else. You can't heal your allies, cleanse yourself, debuff enemies, or deal damage.

And as I explained above, you are a low-stam squishy mag boy on your front bar, which means for a mistform build to really have an impact on a match they have to put themselves at risk.

Without getting too wordy, let me put it this way:

Getting a 0 death mistform BG game is easy.

Getting a 15 - 0 mistform BG game in high MMR is hard. It's way harder than, say... my meta stam sorc, that can streak in and 1 shot most people with 4k weapon damage with malacath and vat 2h (including mistform players on their front bar) and streak out.

(This will apply to players like Tondo who are mainly healers. BTW, mistform healers actually have it much harder since running HP regen + triple reduced cost glyphs will severely gimp the group utility of a healer... meaning Tondo probably isn't that tanky to begin with even in mistform and will REALLY have to choose when to be in mistform and when to... you know, actually cast abilities so the team doesn't wipe).

And if you're dying to a mistform player doing nothing but applying vat ele and zaan, I'm sorry, you are literally the kind of player that gets 1 shot by unleashed/vma 2h crit charge and this is clearly a learn to play issue that goes beyond nerfing one specific setup.

TLDR

Mistform requires a ton of investment in order to make it strong.
You're still squishy on your front bar with low stam sustain.
It makes your offensive very one-dimensional.
Using it effectively to actually influence a match requires a lot of skill.

Here's what you think will happen in mistform: you press a couple buttons and you melt everyone and is a god.

Here's yreality: You come out of mistform to cast ele drain, I streak in with my stam sorc and drop a 25k burst combo on you and execute you to dead in your mistform. You never leave mistform again, your team loses, you did nothing and end the game in 0-1-0.

Again, fix to mistform is very simple:

Scaling cost increase, begins with 3rd tick of skill. Mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform.

katorga

HiImRex wrote: »

I think there's a few players in this thread who are frustrated because they don't really understand how mistform builds work.

The FIX for mistform is easy. Give the skill a scaling cost increase that begins on the 3rd tick, mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform and then the cost increase resets. If you re-enter mistform before those two seconds pass, cost continues to scale up.

This entire post describes why mistform doesn't need any changes. Hurrah. I can get low cost mist and massive damage reduction...so what. Other builds are much more effective and a lot more reliable when the server is performing poorly.

thatESOdude

HiImRex wrote: »

I think there's a few players in this thread who are frustrated because they don't really understand how mistform builds work.

The FIX for mistform is easy. Give the skill a scaling cost increase that begins on the 3rd tick, mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform and then the cost increase resets. If you re-enter mistform before those two seconds pass, cost continues to scale up.

Now, let me de-MIST-ify mistform for some of you.

@ivramirez please don't take this the wrong way but you keep saying cheeky stuff about mistform and reposting that one video over and over again but how about clips of you dominating in a mistform build in high MMR bgs or soloing cyrodil and successfully getting kills and getting away? Because I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

If you fully invest into it, Mistform is one of the most powerful defensive abilities in the game. But it also requires insane amount of investment to make it practical, and also is one of the most all-in defensive moves in terms of actual gameplay.

#1 the investment:

First, 3x infused cost reduction... this gets thrown around like it's not a big deal but this is actually a huge investment to make mistform work. You're giving up 1000 spell or weapon dmg after major brutality/sorcery which is on at all times with no conditions. This is the single BEST source of spell or weapon damage you can get in the game, and most good players find a way to get sustain elsewhere so they can use triple infused spell or weapon damage. It's pretty much impossible to get this back efficiently, which just means mistform builds by their very design have to give up a ton of damage they otherwise would have had.

"But wait, what about procs doing damage for you with Malacath?"

Proc Malacath builds WITH eternal vigor also run triple infused damage glyphs on jewelry. On my stam sorc, I get to have 4k+ weapon damage AND vat 2h with malacath and it will melt people infinitely faster than my mistform vat ele magplar and have better sustain and more practical survivability with streak and speed.

Second, investing into HP regen... if you think that slapping on 1 random HP recov set gets you enough tankiness in mistform to laugh while being chased by 4 people, you're wrong or those 4 people are weak. You want to actively min-mix your setup to achieve significantly beyond cap resistances and 4k+ hp recovery in mistform, but at the same time you'll still die to good players unless you're LOSing and coming out of mistform to cleanse and heal. (source: hours of actual BG experience)

If the HP recovery set is active on your front bar (the bar you do damage on), then you can't achieve max hp regen on your back bar, which means a fully min-maxed mistform build will have pretty much ZERO special defense on their front bar, which they need to be on in order to influence the match in any real way.

BTW, actually getting to 4-5k hp recov in your back bar requires a specific 5 piece + 3 more pieces + full armor pots... where's the stam sustain coming from? Answer: nowhere. If you can't come out of mistform, you might as well not exist. If you don't have stamina to break free or block, you can't come out of mistform. If you use tripots for stam, you can't tank nearly as much as you ideally would want to.

Which brings us to the next point:

#2 the most one-dimensional defensive ability in the game:

If you want to be tanky and still be able to ... you know, DO stuff, building for block tanking is WAY better than mistform (I know this because I have played both styles extensively). You see, if a player is staying in mistform, he might as well not exist in the game.

"IT COSTS NOTHING" but you're also at best reginning 100 magicka per second, with very low regen on your character sheet to begin with, and probably using hp + armor pots, which means staying in Mistform ONLY ensures you live and absolutely nothing else. You can't heal your allies, cleanse yourself, debuff enemies, or deal damage.

And as I explained above, you are a low-stam squishy mag boy on your front bar, which means for a mistform build to really have an impact on a match they have to put themselves at risk.

Without getting too wordy, let me put it this way:

Getting a 0 death mistform BG game is easy.

Getting a 15 - 0 mistform BG game in high MMR is hard. It's way harder than, say... my meta stam sorc, that can streak in and 1 shot most people with 4k weapon damage with malacath and vat 2h (including mistform players on their front bar) and streak out.

(This will apply to players like Tondo who are mainly healers. BTW, mistform healers actually have it much harder since running HP regen + triple reduced cost glyphs will severely gimp the group utility of a healer... meaning Tondo probably isn't that tanky to begin with even in mistform and will REALLY have to choose when to be in mistform and when to... you know, actually cast abilities so the team doesn't wipe).

And if you're dying to a mistform player doing nothing but applying vat ele and zaan, I'm sorry, you are literally the kind of player that gets 1 shot by unleashed/vma 2h crit charge and this is clearly a learn to play issue that goes beyond nerfing one specific setup.

TLDR

Mistform requires a ton of investment in order to make it strong.
You're still squishy on your front bar with low stam sustain.
It makes your offensive very one-dimensional.
Using it effectively to actually influence a match requires a lot of skill.

Here's what you think will happen in mistform: you press a couple buttons and you melt everyone and is a god.

Here's yreality: You come out of mistform to cast ele drain, I streak in with my stam sorc and drop a 25k burst combo on you and execute you to dead in your mistform. You never leave mistform again, your team loses, you did nothing and end the game in 0-1-0.

Again, fix to mistform is very simple:

Scaling cost increase, begins with 3rd tick of skill. Mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform.

Sure when cloak also gets the same.

ivramirez

@hilmRex is clear that you don't understand the mist form skill and you understand less the impact of it on PvP. The mist form skill is beyond of an scaping tool, it has too many advantages and no disadvantages and it alters the game in a very negative way. The skill needs a significant penalty. BTW, the mist form is the least of the problems compared to other things.

Dracane

The most reasonable thing I have read here, is to give mistform a ramping cost. This is the way.

dcmgti

I spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil and still have yet to see any player just sitting in mist form. I see it used to kite, used to get across 10 meatbag stacks at a breach, I see it used to overcome the ungodly amount of snares,cc,immobilizations in pvp. I still yet to see anyone just chilling in mist form. I see snipers go into stealth after a snipe spam and more or less just perma stealth, I see cc break not working on ww fear(or at all, but WW fear is the biggest offender, I see all kinds of weird things on my death recaps, I see wardens almost spamming permafrost/northern, I see sorcs spamming streak, 60k warden block tanks, necro harbinger tanks and 13k per tick heavy attack builds.


But yet mist form is the thing that is broken.........

deleted220701-004865

@hilmRex

relentless_turnip

Mist form was fine when it had an upfront cost(4k I think) and it was limited to 4 seconds. It should be reverted to this or have an escalating cost.

ivramirez

of course @tondodino you want the mist form the way it is now, XD he he he he.

ccfeeling

Can mist form kill players?

deleted220701-004865