I actually hate the alliance war from an RP perspective

StarOfElyon

I can't even create a "good" character that thinks it's a good idea to fight for a throne while the world is being invaded by Daedric forces. Maybe if my character was an evil warlord who didn't care if he ruled over ashes as long as he was emporer, then I could make that character make sense. I could probably get into it if the story was that the other two factions were actually Daedra impersonating Tamrielic citizens. I can accept Battle Ground "games". They should have been created by a Daedric Prince who wanted to watch mortals fight as entertainment (sort of like the Grand Master in Marvel Comics who created the Contest of Champions).

But the Alliance War actually, on a deep level, bothers me.

Ilsabet

Each faction believes that Tamriel as a whole would be better off if their faction were in charge, especially in a time of chaos where strong leadership and unity could go a long way toward countering the Daedric threat. Some may believe that they need to put their own house in order, so to speak, if that house has any chance of withstanding the storm. So there is some rationale there for fighting to advance the cause of ideals and leaders that a person believes in.

Aigym_Hlervu

You have to "thank" the warmongering policy of the Daggerfall Covenant for that, OP. It was that filthy alliance who started the mess to conquer the entire Tamriel - the Dominion and the Pact were formed later in response to the Covenant's aggressive intentions. This is also the only excuse for the Dominion considering it's even more aggressive policy regarding the world they are going to create if they win. The only option is the Pact - peace, freedom, independence and equality to everyone. And since both the Covenant and ghe Dominion regular military invaded Morrowind and Argonia, the Pact has no other choice but to protect itself both against the Daedra and the two other alliances. And since the results of this goal cannot be achieved without taking the Imperial City, we have to fight there. We simply have no other choice. And yes, "thank" the lore team who created this war separating us in three so different groups instead of uniting us all in the face of a common threat. The Covenant's invasion in Morrowind has turned my decades long tolerant and sympathetic views on the Covenant and Dominion countries upside down. And no arguments will change my opinion on that - I'll fight everyone playing the Dominion and the Covenant in Cyrodiil even if I'm the only Pact player left since no retaliation campaign in those alliances' lands is provided in the solo campaign, and since fighting a personal war out there brings only bounties in my own country instead of honor and appreciation. So, all I'm left is to fight them in Cyrodiil and do everything to harm those two alliances in Cadwell's quest line choices if such are provided.

VaranisArano

By the time my main Vestige Varanis Arano unified the Pact, defeated Molag Bal, then helped Emeric and Ayrenn root out the various daedra worshippers and worm cult allies in their own ranks, she'd pretty much lost her appetite for war. She's still quite biased towards the Pact after the Covenant burned Bleakrock Village and the Dominion corrupted the Hatching Pools in Shadowfen, but the good people on the other side have names and faces she knows, now.

So when I roleplay her in Cyrodiil, its as Captain Varanis Arano who bravely fought for the Pact until that fateful day when she was captured by the Worm Cult and Mannimarco sacrificed her soul to Molag Bal...

For me, treating Cyrodiil as the "prequel" to the character growth my characters go through during their questing let's me bridge the gap between no-holds-barred enthusiasm for PVP, especially given that I'm intensely loyal to the Pact as a player, and the personal growth that my characters go through as they quest and learn that a hero's way in the world is often more complicated than a soldier's duty.

(As for your Daedric Princes, you might try Boethiah (Dragonstar Arena) or Fa-Nuit-Hen the demiprince in charge of Maelstrom Arena.)

Eporem

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Maybe if my character was an evil warlord who didn't care if he ruled over ashes as long as he was emporer, then I could make that character make sense.

Maybe not an evil warlord, but one of the Legion Zero?:)

Legion Zero is an Imperial Legion that has sworn fealty to Molag Bal. They are the survivors of the legions that were present in the Imperial City when the Daedra invaded, although members are forced to drink the Blood of Coldharbour and eventually become mindshriven.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

A short fan fiction piece I wrote a few years ago comes to mind. File this under "wishful thinking".

https://dropbox.com/s/v06mgvams0uph57/ayrenn-letter.pdf?dl=0

AcadianPaladin

@stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO Nicely done!

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

@stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO Nicely done!

Did you mean to tag me? In that case, you misspelled my username rather a lot.

AcadianPaladin

Lol, I certainly did. I thought I used autocomplete to do that but obviously I gooned something up.

Ilsabet

Autocomplete probably thought you meant stefan's brother stefaan.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Ilsabet wrote: »

Autocomplete probably thought you meant stefan's brother stefaan.

That "b16_ESO" part is not actually a family name, you know...

goldCoaster

Daggerfall Covenant is superior.

We believe in Democracy. We believe in globalism. We believe in multiculturalism.

VaranisArano

goldCoaster wrote: »

Daggerfall Covenant is superior.

We believe in Democracy. We believe in globalism. We believe in multiculturalism.

Now I'm sitting here wondering where an alliance led by a High King, together with the High King of Hammerfell, and the King of the Orsimer (who's a big fan of slaughtering the clan chiefs who don't agree with him) ends up believing in democracy.

Did I miss something in the DC questlines?

Aigym_Hlervu

VaranisArano wrote: »

goldCoaster wrote: »

Daggerfall Covenant is superior.

We believe in Democracy. We believe in globalism. We believe in multiculturalism.

Now I'm sitting here wondering where an alliance led by a High King, together with the High King of Hammerfell, and the King of the Orsimer (who's a big fan of slaughtering the clan chiefs who don't agree with him) ends up believing in democracy.

Did I miss something in the DC questlines?

Same thing here, Varanis. Though, I know you know it .

I was wondering of what demos that kratia could be in a feudal society ruled by a hereditary nobility and driven by almost rightless estates of peasants, artisans and merchants. The only democracy possible in Tamriel today can be in two places only (as I think) - it's the Argonia's tribal communities and the only existing in Nirn industrial society of the Clockwork City's trade unions only. And what globalism do the Daggers believe in since that thing in it's first stages of development won't start in Tamriel until 3E 82 when the Imperial Elder Council will consist of the financial elite instead of the feudals, and when the commercial companies like the East Empire Company begin to conquer the "global" markets? Globalism is not possible without developed capitalism, and it's just in the phase of it's establishment since the Guild Act signed by Potentate Versidue-Shaie in 2E 321 was a too recent event speaking of the local time scales. And the third thing mentioned there - well, yes, we have seen enough of the official Covenant's respect towards other cultures during their recent invasion in Morrowind and Skyrim. The Daggers can't understand a simple thing that a desire to rebuild the Second Empire as it was means to recreate all the reasons that brought it to it's downfall. A pure necromancy, though nothing suprising here - they have been having a lot of those.. bad people, let's say it so, among their official military ranks even before the Necromancer class was introduced so we could use our own at least in Cyrodiil.. There is no way back to the Second Empire and it is something they have to remember all the time when their kings send them to kill civillians and bring so much sorrow the way they did it to Skyrim and Morrowind.

Eporem

What I wish at times, for roleplaying and PvP purposes, is that we are able to create Daedric races.

VaranisArano

Eporem wrote: »

What I wish at times, for roleplaying and PvP purposes, is that we are able to create Daedric races.

Would using the Xivkyn Polymorphs work from a role-playing perspective?

Eporem

VaranisArano wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

What I wish at times, for roleplaying and PvP purposes, is that we are able to create Daedric races.

Would using the Xivkyn Polymorphs work from a role-playing perspective?

I think all Polymorphs and Skins are great to use for roleplaying, though I am not sure what ones can be used or stay on when entering Cyrodiil. If the Xivkyn Polymorph or even the Mind Shriven Skin can be used in Cyrodiil what Home Campaign in this lore era of ESO would these ones join for PvP purposes - one to Molag-Bal?

VaranisArano

Eporem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Eporem wrote: »

What I wish at times, for roleplaying and PvP purposes, is that we are able to create Daedric races.

Would using the Xivkyn Polymorphs work from a role-playing perspective?

I think all Polymorphs and Skins are great to use for roleplaying, though I am not sure what ones can be used or stay on when entering Cyrodiil. If the Xivkyn Polymorph or even the Mind Shriven Skin can be used in Cyrodiil what Home Campaign in this lore era of ESO would these ones join for PvP purposes - one to Molag-Bal?

I've used the Xivkyn polymorph in Imperial City while fishing - it was great fun because I once got a fellow EP player to try to kill me because they thought I was an NPC.

All role-playing requires a certain amount of pretending. If I wanted to PVP as a daedra, I'd look at Imperial City as the place where I'd most "fit in." Same thing with my Legion Zero character.

As for Cyrodiil, It would depend on how much I wanted to pretend about my non-daedric allies. For myself, I would probably play as a Worm Cult character who tries to keep the war going for Molag Bal's glory.

SgtNuttzmeg

Personally the thing that has always bugged me is why the guards in EP territories respect the laws of DC territories. Why am I an outlaw in both? You would think if they were at war they would encourage people to steal from their enemies.

Aigym_Hlervu

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Personally the thing that has always bugged me is why the guards in EP territories respect the laws of DC territories. Why am I an outlaw in both? You would think if they were at war they would encourage people to steal from their enemies.

The only credible lore-wise explanation I found to myself is also based on the IRL parallels here. If we remember the period of the 1337 -1453, the Hundred Years' War, we'll also remember the Jacquerie - a peasants' revolt in Northern France caused by massive poverty and injustice commited towards them by the French feudal nobility. Peasants were the main economic power who fueled the war and at some point the pressure became overwhelming and they revolted. So, what happened next? The English and French noble classes signed a truce and began suppressing the revolt in France together back to back, while the peasants in England did not help their French brethren at all. So, the revolt was quickly suppressed, the war continued and the peasantry of both countries continued to work, fight and die for some cause uncertain and unnecessary to them. Just as usual. Everything (borders, states, different kings, religion, etc.) fades when it comes to the interests of the dominant socio-economic classes and the risk to lose that status. They always unite.

The situation in ESO is not that different. As you might have noticed, at least since the Guild Act I've mentioned above, the "high law" of Tamriel generally grants the supreme protection to merchants, kings, nobles and other such estates - they always have the "Friendly" status and thus nobody can rob or kill them, because they are too needed regarding the game mechanics and also from the lore perspective. They are the dominant estates of Tamriel of this period. But "somehow" it's ok to rob and kill commoners, peasants and all those who literally drive the local economy from the lore perspective - they are the lower, exploited, class, and this is the reason.

Killing or robbing such a commoner will cause an administrative fine only for players who are treated by the game as a land owning nobility or merchants, because we do own those houses, resource gathering slaves, we own guilds, i.e. the commercial enterprises, we trade and fight in wars - we have all the features of the local noble class. Thus, nobody would put them in stocks for that like it is usually done to those commoners for spoiling the interests of a superior class of the "Friendly" status. To players the death penalty is usually caused by disobedience to guards or by the Fugitive status only caused by a completely hostile behavior. In all other cases it's just a compensation - an absolutely adequate measure when someone's property is spoiled even if that property is a man, mer or beastfolk's life.

So, I suppose killing or stealing from a commoner in the game is treated as damaging the property of a noble who owns the land and the commoner's labor force there and thus there is no difference what country it is - if some rogues spoil the economical interests of your neighboring competitor today, there is no guarantee that the rogue won't come to you tomorrow. If those rogues are nobles themselves, they'll get a fine, if they are commoners - they will be hunted down. So, no wars and borders mean anything when it comes to protection of private property on the means of production - the warring parties can lose it to each other but will never tolerate losing it to the lower class they rule over. This is why, I think, the Tamriel guards act as they do.

SgtNuttzmeg

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Personally the thing that has always bugged me is why the guards in EP territories respect the laws of DC territories. Why am I an outlaw in both? You would think if they were at war they would encourage people to steal from their enemies.

The only credible lore-wise explanation I found to myself is also based on the IRL parallels here. If we remember the period of the 1337 -1453, the Hundred Years' War, we'll also remember the Jacquerie - a peasants' revolt in Northern France caused by massive poverty and injustice commited towards them by the French feudal nobility. Peasants were the main economic power who fueled the war and at some point the pressure became overwhelming and they revolted. So, what happened next? The English and French noble classes signed a truce and began suppressing the revolt in France together back to back, while the peasants in England did not help their French brethren at all. So, the revolt was quickly suppressed, the war continued and the peasantry of both countries continued to work, fight and die for some cause uncertain and unnecessary to them. Just as usual. Everything (borders, states, different kings, religion, etc.) fades when it comes to the interests of the dominant socio-economic classes and the risk to lose that status. They always unite.

The situation in ESO is not that different. As you might have noticed, at least since the Guild Act I've mentioned above, the "high law" of Tamriel generally grants the supreme protection to merchants, kings, nobles and other such estates - they always have the "Friendly" status and thus nobody can rob or kill them, because they are too needed regarding the game mechanics and also from the lore perspective. They are the dominant estates of Tamriel of this period. But "somehow" it's ok to rob and kill commoners, peasants and all those who literally drive the local economy from the lore perspective - they are the lower, exploited, class, and this is the reason.

Killing or robbing such a commoner will cause an administrative fine only for players who are treated by the game as a land owning nobility or merchants, because we do own those houses, resource gathering slaves, we own guilds, i.e. the commercial enterprises, we trade and fight in wars - we have all the features of the local noble class. Thus, nobody would put them in stocks for that like it is usually done to those commoners for spoiling the interests of a superior class of the "Friendly" status. To players the death penalty is usually caused by disobedience to guards or by the Fugitive status only caused by a completely hostile behavior. In all other cases it's just a compensation - an absolutely adequate measure when someone's property is spoiled even if that property is a man, mer or beastfolk's life.

So, I suppose killing or stealing from a commoner in the game is treated as damaging the property of a noble who owns the land and the commoner's labor force there and thus there is no difference what country it is - if some rogues spoil the economical interests of your neighboring competitor today, there is no guarantee that the rogue won't come to you tomorrow. If those rogues are nobles themselves, they'll get a fine, if they are commoners - they will be hunted down. So, no wars and borders mean anything when it comes to protection of private property on the means of production - the warring parties can lose it to each other but will never tolerate losing it to the lower class they rule over. This is why, I think, the Tamriel guards act as they do.

There are plenty of instances at all points of time when different countries have incited crime or pardoned criminals from other countries. Also how do the guards in the different factions know what crimes you committed in a rival country. Why would they even believe that? Our character in this game is the "vestige". Which if I am not mistaken is a very influential person given that they are responsible for the downfall of Molag Bal. If an enemy country sent me a letter saying the vestige robbed a bunch of people, I would be more inclined to believe that they were lying and trying to create a rift in-between this very important figure.

[Edit to remove bait]

VaranisArano

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Personally the thing that has always bugged me is why the guards in EP territories respect the laws of DC territories. Why am I an outlaw in both? You would think if they were at war they would encourage people to steal from their enemies.

Probably the same way any guard in the same city that spots me instantly knows that I have a bounty even though they didn't see me commit the crime?

I dunno, maybe my Breton Silencer just has an incredibly guilty looking face after she gets caught.


Alternatively, if I overlook the instantaneous telepathy between guards, its not out of the realm of possibility that my Breton Master Thief and Silencer is actually an internationally known criminal and assassin in addition to being a DC hero. Membership in the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood is frowned on everywhere, IIRC, so unless she can convincingly say "I haven't done anything...yet," its not surprising that the guards might nab her even in a different territory.


From a gameplay perspective, its so that if you want to play an outlaw, you actually suffer the downsides of being an outlaw. You can't go anywhere that has civilization - you are stuck in Coldharbor or Cyrodiil until you pay off or wait out your bounty.

And I think that fits even from an immersion perspective. Nobody on either side wants a murderer or thief with a history of criminal sprees setting up shop in their town, so there's still some international cooperation to nab or kill known criminals with a high bounty. The telepathic nature of how every guard knows doesn't necessarily make immersive sense, but again, its tied to the gameplay speed at which players can travel.

Crazyprophet

I quite like the idea of the Alliance war myself - if only because when disaster strikes, political turmoil often follows.

The factions also just make sense to me (mostly). Emeric's attempt to spiritually recreate the Reman empire is pretty damned cool I think, since the Potentate is still FAIRLY recent history - enough that people would miss the glory days and see the worth in it. The Aldmeri Dominion also makes sense - the High Elves definitely have largely always seen themselves as somewhat superior and there's a real opportunity to become the next global force amongst all the chaos of the Second Era. The Ebonheart Pact makes less sense from a PvP perspective I feel - they'd operate better as a defensive agreement I reckon. They have no real motives to claim the ruby throne other than to vaguely ensure the other alliances don't get it, which seems like a waste of men better spent fortifying while the other two alliances clash.

tuxon

goldCoaster wrote: »

Daggerfall Covenant is superior.

We believe in Democracy. We believe in globalism. We believe in multiculturalism.

Oh yeash by slaughtering Orcimers and burning Orsinuim to the ground xD

Crazyprophet

Hey we defeated the orcs when they became a problem, but then we gave them a hand up and helped them join us as equals, not as subordinates. Daggerfall Covenant for the win! :P

BulletMagnetX

Aigym_Hlervu wrote: »

You have to "thank" the warmongering policy of the Daggerfall Covenant for that, OP. It was that filthy alliance who started the mess to conquer the entire Tamriel - the Dominion and the Pact were formed later in response to the Covenant's aggressive intentions.

The Ebonheart Pact was formed in response to the Second Akaviri Invasion, when the Kamal and Tsaesci invaded Eastmarch and Stonefalls.

Crazyprophet

You know, one aspect of the Alliance War I've never FULLY understood is the motives of the Ebonheart Pact.

The Covenant see themselves as the successors of the Reman Empire.

The Dominion have seen Tamriel left in ruins from failed Cyrodiilic rulers who were not Mer, and seek to correct the course of Tamriellic history by bringing the stability of Alinor to the wider world.

But the Pact kinda formed out of necessity - a defensive alliance. I wonder if they'd be better served using their resources to safeguard their own borders rather than waste them trying to claim a Cyrodiilic throne that is essentially irrelevant to them.

VaranisArano

Crazyprophet wrote: »

You know, one aspect of the Alliance War I've never FULLY understood is the motives of the Ebonheart Pact.

The Covenant see themselves as the successors of the Reman Empire.

The Dominion have seen Tamriel left in ruins from failed Cyrodiilic rulers who were not Mer, and seek to correct the course of Tamriellic history by bringing the stability of Alinor to the wider world.

But the Pact kinda formed out of necessity - a defensive alliance. I wonder if they'd be better served using their resources to safeguard their own borders rather than waste them trying to claim a Cyrodiilic throne that is essentially irrelevant to them.

Alla Llaleth, a propagandist for the Pact, offers some insight in "The Time of the Ebonheart Pact".
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact

"Time and again Men have shown that without proper guidance, their meddling with External Powers leads to disaster. Men's reckless dabbling with beings beyond Nirn must stop forever. Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn. Only they have shown how to treat successfully with powers beyond Nirn.

The rash actions of those who sit the Ruby Throne, or who pull their strings, have brought Tamriel to the verge of irretrievable doom. They must be scoured from the face of Cyrodiil, and the decaying remains of the Empire of Men must be swept away. It shall be replaced by the Pact, which will enforce peace across the continent and strictly regulate all involvement in dangerous magical pursuits.

Onward, warriors of the Pact! We will never know peace and freedom until we occupy White-Gold Tower!"


In one sense, the Ebonheart Pact has some of the same ideas as the Dominion. "Humans caused the Planemeld so clearly they don't know what they're doing. The Altmer Tribunal should be in charge!" There's a new element in that while Ayrenn seems more focused on ruling Cyrodiil, Alla Llaleth hints that the Pact is more focused on outside threats to all of Nirn like the Daedra.

Which does sort of shine a whole new light on the events of Deshaan, Vvardenfell, and Clockwork City. The Tribunal wants the Pact to be in charge of Tamriel, regulating magic in order to protect Nirn, apparently. Well, they certainly are right that numerous Daedric Princes are an existential threat to Nirn! Yet they are 0 for 3 when it comes to defeating daedric plots during ESO without the help of the Vestige? Hmmm.

Not that Ayrenn or Emeric are particularly more competent without the Vestige's help, but it goes to show that all three sides struggle to live up to their propaganda.

GreenHere

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crazyprophet wrote: »

You know, one aspect of the Alliance War I've never FULLY understood is the motives of the Ebonheart Pact.

The Covenant see themselves as the successors of the Reman Empire.

The Dominion have seen Tamriel left in ruins from failed Cyrodiilic rulers who were not Mer, and seek to correct the course of Tamriellic history by bringing the stability of Alinor to the wider world.

But the Pact kinda formed out of necessity - a defensive alliance. I wonder if they'd be better served using their resources to safeguard their own borders rather than waste them trying to claim a Cyrodiilic throne that is essentially irrelevant to them.

Alla Llaleth, a propagandist for the Pact, offers some insight in "The Time of the Ebonheart Pact".
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact

"Time and again Men have shown that without proper guidance, their meddling with External Powers leads to disaster. Men's reckless dabbling with beings beyond Nirn must stop forever. Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn. Only they have shown how to treat successfully with powers beyond Nirn.

The rash actions of those who sit the Ruby Throne, or who pull their strings, have brought Tamriel to the verge of irretrievable doom. They must be scoured from the face of Cyrodiil, and the decaying remains of the Empire of Men must be swept away. It shall be replaced by the Pact, which will enforce peace across the continent and strictly regulate all involvement in dangerous magical pursuits.

Onward, warriors of the Pact! We will never know peace and freedom until we occupy White-Gold Tower!"


In one sense, the Ebonheart Pact has some of the same ideas as the Dominion. "Humans caused the Planemeld so clearly they don't know what they're doing. The Altmer Tribunal should be in charge!" There's a new element in that while Ayrenn seems more focused on ruling Cyrodiil, Alla Llaleth hints that the Pact is more focused on outside threats to all of Nirn like the Daedra.

Which does sort of shine a whole new light on the events of Deshaan, Vvardenfell, and Clockwork City. The Tribunal wants the Pact to be in charge of Tamriel, regulating magic in order to protect Nirn, apparently. Well, they certainly are right that numerous Daedric Princes are an existential threat to Nirn! Yet they are 0 for 3 when it comes to defeating daedric plots during ESO without the help of the Vestige? Hmmm.

Not that Ayrenn or Emeric are particularly more competent without the Vestige's help, but it goes to show that all three sides struggle to live up to their propaganda.

How do I give your post an Insightful, Agree, and an Awesome, @VaranisArano ? :P

NotaDaedraWorshipper

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crazyprophet wrote: »

You know, one aspect of the Alliance War I've never FULLY understood is the motives of the Ebonheart Pact.

The Covenant see themselves as the successors of the Reman Empire.

The Dominion have seen Tamriel left in ruins from failed Cyrodiilic rulers who were not Mer, and seek to correct the course of Tamriellic history by bringing the stability of Alinor to the wider world.

But the Pact kinda formed out of necessity - a defensive alliance. I wonder if they'd be better served using their resources to safeguard their own borders rather than waste them trying to claim a Cyrodiilic throne that is essentially irrelevant to them.

Alla Llaleth, a propagandist for the Pact, offers some insight in "The Time of the Ebonheart Pact".
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact

"Time and again Men have shown that without proper guidance, their meddling with External Powers leads to disaster. Men's reckless dabbling with beings beyond Nirn must stop forever. Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn. Only they have shown how to treat successfully with powers beyond Nirn.

The rash actions of those who sit the Ruby Throne, or who pull their strings, have brought Tamriel to the verge of irretrievable doom. They must be scoured from the face of Cyrodiil, and the decaying remains of the Empire of Men must be swept away. It shall be replaced by the Pact, which will enforce peace across the continent and strictly regulate all involvement in dangerous magical pursuits.

Onward, warriors of the Pact! We will never know peace and freedom until we occupy White-Gold Tower!"


In one sense, the Ebonheart Pact has some of the same ideas as the Dominion. "Humans caused the Planemeld so clearly they don't know what they're doing. The Altmer Tribunal should be in charge!" There's a new element in that while Ayrenn seems more focused on ruling Cyrodiil, Alla Llaleth hints that the Pact is more focused on outside threats to all of Nirn like the Daedra.

Which does sort of shine a whole new light on the events of Deshaan, Vvardenfell, and Clockwork City. The Tribunal wants the Pact to be in charge of Tamriel, regulating magic in order to protect Nirn, apparently. Well, they certainly are right that numerous Daedric Princes are an existential threat to Nirn! Yet they are 0 for 3 when it comes to defeating daedric plots during ESO without the help of the Vestige? Hmmm.

Not that Ayrenn or Emeric are particularly more competent without the Vestige's help, but it goes to show that all three sides struggle to live up to their propaganda.

Must be damn akward for the nords.

VaranisArano

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crazyprophet wrote: »

You know, one aspect of the Alliance War I've never FULLY understood is the motives of the Ebonheart Pact.

The Covenant see themselves as the successors of the Reman Empire.

The Dominion have seen Tamriel left in ruins from failed Cyrodiilic rulers who were not Mer, and seek to correct the course of Tamriellic history by bringing the stability of Alinor to the wider world.

But the Pact kinda formed out of necessity - a defensive alliance. I wonder if they'd be better served using their resources to safeguard their own borders rather than waste them trying to claim a Cyrodiilic throne that is essentially irrelevant to them.

Alla Llaleth, a propagandist for the Pact, offers some insight in "The Time of the Ebonheart Pact".
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Time_of_the_Ebonheart_Pact

"Time and again Men have shown that without proper guidance, their meddling with External Powers leads to disaster. Men's reckless dabbling with beings beyond Nirn must stop forever. Now it is the time of the Ebonheart Pact, which shall and must become the Tamriel Pact. Within the Pact, the Aedra, Daedra, and Hist are all revered … from an appropriate distance. Within the Pact is the Tribunal, three Living Gods who abide among us here on Nirn and whose interest therefore coincides with that of all residents of Nirn. Only they have shown how to treat successfully with powers beyond Nirn.

The rash actions of those who sit the Ruby Throne, or who pull their strings, have brought Tamriel to the verge of irretrievable doom. They must be scoured from the face of Cyrodiil, and the decaying remains of the Empire of Men must be swept away. It shall be replaced by the Pact, which will enforce peace across the continent and strictly regulate all involvement in dangerous magical pursuits.

Onward, warriors of the Pact! We will never know peace and freedom until we occupy White-Gold Tower!"


In one sense, the Ebonheart Pact has some of the same ideas as the Dominion. "Humans caused the Planemeld so clearly they don't know what they're doing. The Altmer Tribunal should be in charge!" There's a new element in that while Ayrenn seems more focused on ruling Cyrodiil, Alla Llaleth hints that the Pact is more focused on outside threats to all of Nirn like the Daedra.

Which does sort of shine a whole new light on the events of Deshaan, Vvardenfell, and Clockwork City. The Tribunal wants the Pact to be in charge of Tamriel, regulating magic in order to protect Nirn, apparently. Well, they certainly are right that numerous Daedric Princes are an existential threat to Nirn! Yet they are 0 for 3 when it comes to defeating daedric plots during ESO without the help of the Vestige? Hmmm.

Not that Ayrenn or Emeric are particularly more competent without the Vestige's help, but it goes to show that all three sides struggle to live up to their propaganda.

Must be damn akward for the nords.

Possibly. I cut off the first paragraph of the book because it wasn't precisely pertinent to the Alliance War, but it goes like this:

"The Wheel of Time turns: in the dawn, it was the day of the Aldmeri, and then came the time of Men—but now, as the decay and chaos in the Empire makes clear, the time of Men has passed. Of the Men of Tamriel, only the Eastern Nords had the strength of character to join Dunmeri and Argonians in repelling the recent invasion of Snake-Men from Akavir, thereby showing that of all Men, only they may be trusted."

Now, it's important to note that this is a work of propaganda. As such, it plays with the chronology a little. Technically, the Nords and Dunmer allied to fight the Akaviri, then the Argonians brought in reinforcements to defeat them. So far from it being a matter of "these Nords helped out - they're okay", the Nords of Eastern Skyrim are an integral part of the original Pact. Alla Llaleth is selling them short to make her point.

Stripped of the author's views on the failure of men in general, its likely that the average Nord agrees with the idea of regulating magic to prevent reoccurences of disasters like the Planemeld. After all, their old Reachmen enemies use magic and appeal to the Daedra. Between the Iceheart Coven, the invasion of the Rift, knowledge of Noctural's attempt to take the Crystal Tower, and several assassination attempts on Jorunn, magic looks pretty iffy. And when your Dunmer allies are of the opinion that "if it's human, necromancy is a-okay", and their own wizard-lords aren't part of the Pact, I expect most Nords think the Tribunal has a point about the dangers of magic and dealing with outside forces.


Side note #1: I never liked the questline in the Pact mage academy at Shad Astula, but now it makes more sense to me. If the Pact intends to regulate magical pursuits, they'll need their own officer corps who can do it.

Side note #2: the idea that the Pact will "strictly regulate all involvement in dangerous magical pursuits" adds an extra layer to the Telvanni decision to not join the Pact. Sure, they're a bunch of isolationist, slaving Wizard-lords, but in this case they are also a bunch of isolationist, slaving Wizard-lords giving the proverbial middle finger to the Tribunal's attempt to regulate what they do in their own mushroom towers.