The mist form - skill that needs to be examined

ivramirez

When enough is enough...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg

Firstmep

ivramirez wrote: »

When enough is enough...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg

Nah, mist is the only viable defense for a lot of mag classes. They should probably tweak the skill so it doesnt benefit from flat cost reduction so much, but other than that its fine.
Also there are still a lot of issues with mist not activating in high intensity combat, certain roots and snares still going thru etc.

wheem_ESO

There's no reason that a Stamina build can't 100% keep up with Mist Form. And on a Stamblade, you can just use your spammable/gap closer to keep some damage going while also staying on top of the target.

Shields are already completely worthless in no-CP for anyone who isn't a Sorcerer (and even then they aren't particularly good), and now you want Mist Form nerfed too? But let me guess, dodge roll spam is A-OK and doesn't need to be touched? I guess some people are fans of the last 3-4 years of Stamina dominance, and don't want it to end anytime soon.

ivramirez

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There's no reason that a Stamina build can't 100% keep up with Mist Form. And on a Stamblade, you can just use your spammable/gap closer to keep some damage going while also staying on top of the target.

Shields are already completely worthless in no-CP for anyone who isn't a Sorcerer (and even then they aren't particularly good), and now you want Mist Form nerfed too? But let me guess, dodge roll spam is A-OK and doesn't need to be touched? I guess some people are fans of the last 3-4 years of Stamina dominance, and don't want it to end anytime soon.

Wait but the question is, when is enough for a mist form transformation? from Base to Base? 60 seconds mist form? distance? 2 km? the entire match? the video is there, is that distance balance?

wheem_ESO

ivramirez wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There's no reason that a Stamina build can't 100% keep up with Mist Form. And on a Stamblade, you can just use your spammable/gap closer to keep some damage going while also staying on top of the target.

Shields are already completely worthless in no-CP for anyone who isn't a Sorcerer (and even then they aren't particularly good), and now you want Mist Form nerfed too? But let me guess, dodge roll spam is A-OK and doesn't need to be touched? I guess some people are fans of the last 3-4 years of Stamina dominance, and don't want it to end anytime soon.

Wait but the question is, when is enough for a mist form transformation? from Base to Base? 60 seconds mist form? distance? 2 km? the entire match? the video is there, is that distance balance?

I don't have an issue with what I saw of Mist Form in the video, especially since many stamina builds would have escaped in the same situation, and been ready to spin around and 2-shot one or both of the pursuers once they reached their team.

Perhaps stacking cost reduction glyphs makes Mist Form too cheap - I'm not sure. But if using it over the distance between those two bases would be enough to totally drain someone's Magicka pool, the skill wouldn't really be very useful. Outside of a few niche builds that aren't even viable on every class, Mist Form is the only worthwhile ability from Vampirism, and I'd rather not see it made useless. It also comes with drawbacks that apply 24/7, even without any of the Vampire abilities on your bar; that big chunk of extra damage on every incoming Dawnbreaker is nothing to sneeze at.

VampireLordLover99

You do know that mist form is SLOWER than sprinting, right?

VampireLordLover99

ivramirez wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There's no reason that a Stamina build can't 100% keep up with Mist Form. And on a Stamblade, you can just use your spammable/gap closer to keep some damage going while also staying on top of the target.

Shields are already completely worthless in no-CP for anyone who isn't a Sorcerer (and even then they aren't particularly good), and now you want Mist Form nerfed too? But let me guess, dodge roll spam is A-OK and doesn't need to be touched? I guess some people are fans of the last 3-4 years of Stamina dominance, and don't want it to end anytime soon.

Wait but the question is, when is enough for a mist form transformation? from Base to Base? 60 seconds mist form? distance? 2 km? the entire match? the video is there, is that distance balance?

Mist form is slower than sprinting FYI. No reason why you cant keep up with it.

Orange_fire_dragon

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

VampireLordLover99

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

That'd literally kill the skill.

It isn't broken. It's the one good ability vampires have.

Sephyr

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

But nerfing the sublclass that's already been nerfed several times will take it completely out of play in a lot of scenarios. There's already serious requirements to build around the weaknesses (some you can't even get around at all) that you gain with vampirism and it doesn't need anymore. If someone's hinging on a build that is arguably pretty counterproductive aside from being a distraction. I wouldn't chase them, especially not in a Capture the Relic match. Had it been me, I'd have just let them mist right on through. If they came back trying to start something and do the same thing, they're not going to be able to kill me because they're too busy trying to mist form away.

Ruder

My Stamblade can cloack from one base to another, nerf cloack !

soulferin

The only thing reasonable to change in mist form Is fall damage. It's terrible stupid to get any dmg from falling while in mist form ;p

Jeremy

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

Orange_fire_dragon

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

That'd literally kill the skill.

It isn't broken. It's the one good ability vampires have.

The way this game functions, 75% dmg reduction is insane, on top of it you can move noticeably faster and cannot be slown down, the example this video shows of going from base to base while in mist form isn't even a long time considering how long people can be in mist form.
We have things that do negate damage like basic block and cloak but they both have hard counters way higher sustain issues.
Block you cannot move nowhere nearly as fast, though allows you to use some abilities but still if you're only survivor in your team and you try to walk back to your base holding block, you'll run of stamina before half way if not just die, plus block does not negate all effects, certain stuns ignore it such as fighter's guild fear or streak or even the vampire fear while at the subject of vampires.
Cloak negates dot damages on you and for some reason few direct attacks like dawnbreaker but the counter play is that any kind of aoe, or attack that does not need a target to cast will remove you from it making you take all the dmg once more, also detect potions.
Mist however, cast it, move away, no biggie. It is the ultimate 1 button no death, only way to remove mist from use which is not very efficient anyway is using negate ultimate. And wasting somewhat expensive ultimate just for mist form seems like really poor counter play. Now add that people can run mist for very long periods of time and if they do get low health, you can on many classes pop it off when you have bit of distance, burst heal and use potion if off cooldown and go right back in mist.

I don't mind that mist form is strong but I do think it is silly how strong it is now, there are a few things I'd like to add as restrictions to mist but first off just make it not '1 button oh shieet ability, oh nvm I survive because I press 1 button kek'

wheem_ESO

Piraja27 wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

That'd literally kill the skill.

It isn't broken. It's the one good ability vampires have.

The way this game functions, 75% dmg reduction is insane, on top of it you can move noticeably faster and cannot be slown down, the example this video shows of going from base to base while in mist form isn't even a long time considering how long people can be in mist form.
We have things that do negate damage like basic block and cloak but they both have hard counters way higher sustain issues.
Block you cannot move nowhere nearly as fast, though allows you to use some abilities but still if you're only survivor in your team and you try to walk back to your base holding block, you'll run of stamina before half way if not just die, plus block does not negate all effects, certain stuns ignore it such as fighter's guild fear or streak or even the vampire fear while at the subject of vampires.
Cloak negates dot damages on you and for some reason few direct attacks like dawnbreaker but the counter play is that any kind of aoe, or attack that does not need a target to cast will remove you from it making you take all the dmg once more, also detect potions.
Mist however, cast it, move away, no biggie. It is the ultimate 1 button no death, only way to remove mist from use which is not very efficient anyway is using negate ultimate. And wasting somewhat expensive ultimate just for mist form seems like really poor counter play. Now add that people can run mist for very long periods of time and if they do get low health, you can on many classes pop it off when you have bit of distance, burst heal and use potion if off cooldown and go right back in mist.

I don't mind that mist form is strong but I do think it is silly how strong it is now, there are a few things I'd like to add as restrictions to mist but first off just make it not '1 button oh shieet ability, oh nvm I survive because I press 1 button kek'

Block, Cloak, Dodge Roll, Sprint, etc...also don't cause you to take 20% extra damage from every Dawnbreaker, at all times, nor do they cut off 100% of incoming healing, and only Block also prevents natural resource regeneration. Not to mention the 5-20% extra incoming flame damage, 3-12% increased non-Vampire ability cost, and 10-100% reduction in health regeneration associated with having Mist Form as an option.

If you try escaping with Mist Form against determined opposition that's actually willing to put in some effort to chase - which was not the case in the OP's video - you'd better hope that there's a lot of LOS available, and that your class has a really good burst heal. The damage reduction on Mist Form is good, sure, but it doesn't reduce everything to 0, and a lot of people are going to be sitting on a stun for the instant you pop out of it.

PhoenixGrey

My stamblade will delete any mag class through mist form. Magicka defense overall is non existent in this game rn

Orange_fire_dragon

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

That'd literally kill the skill.

It isn't broken. It's the one good ability vampires have.

The way this game functions, 75% dmg reduction is insane, on top of it you can move noticeably faster and cannot be slown down, the example this video shows of going from base to base while in mist form isn't even a long time considering how long people can be in mist form.
We have things that do negate damage like basic block and cloak but they both have hard counters way higher sustain issues.
Block you cannot move nowhere nearly as fast, though allows you to use some abilities but still if you're only survivor in your team and you try to walk back to your base holding block, you'll run of stamina before half way if not just die, plus block does not negate all effects, certain stuns ignore it such as fighter's guild fear or streak or even the vampire fear while at the subject of vampires.
Cloak negates dot damages on you and for some reason few direct attacks like dawnbreaker but the counter play is that any kind of aoe, or attack that does not need a target to cast will remove you from it making you take all the dmg once more, also detect potions.
Mist however, cast it, move away, no biggie. It is the ultimate 1 button no death, only way to remove mist from use which is not very efficient anyway is using negate ultimate. And wasting somewhat expensive ultimate just for mist form seems like really poor counter play. Now add that people can run mist for very long periods of time and if they do get low health, you can on many classes pop it off when you have bit of distance, burst heal and use potion if off cooldown and go right back in mist.

I don't mind that mist form is strong but I do think it is silly how strong it is now, there are a few things I'd like to add as restrictions to mist but first off just make it not '1 button oh shieet ability, oh nvm I survive because I press 1 button kek'

Block, Cloak, Dodge Roll, Sprint, etc...also don't cause you to take 20% extra damage from every Dawnbreaker, at all times, nor do they cut off 100% of incoming healing, and only Block also prevents natural resource regeneration. Not to mention the 5-20% extra incoming flame damage, 3-12% increased non-Vampire ability cost, and 10-100% reduction in health regeneration associated with having Mist Form as an option.

If you try escaping with Mist Form against determined opposition that's actually willing to put in some effort to chase - which was not the case in the OP's video - you'd better hope that there's a lot of LOS available, and that your class has a really good burst heal. The damage reduction on Mist Form is good, sure, but it doesn't reduce everything to 0, and a lot of people are going to be sitting on a stun for the instant you pop out of it.

yeah the increased damage taken from dawnbreaker ult is kinda irrelevant as builds then to be so bulky anyway and whilst in mist form, you take like 1200 damage instead of 1000, that 200 surely made a difference didn't it..?

you taking increased fire dmg kind of matters but not a whole lot since you can be lowest tier vampire to use the ability anyway if you want so it is not that much extra damage taken from it, and again, mist form itself negates more than enough, infact I see 20-22k health builds in BGs running mist form because how overly reliable it is for escaping ANY situation, not just some, ANY. Even with people chasing them, only viable way to deal dmg to them are ranged abilities, the increased movement and complete snare immunity makes that even with minor expedition, swift trait on gold jewelry and steed stone so overall 32% increased movement speed and possibly even medium armor passives, your abilities will not always go off because the target goes out of range, if you could sprint and use abilities and la weave, you could do it chase easier but then you be asking 'where mah stam gone?' and by then you realize oh the enemy mist formed to their spawn and here comes rest of the team, GG

Fun fact too, any other but chaosball and ctr whilst carrying relic (unless exploiting the ball pick up glitch) you can contribute to objectives in BGs, you can cap points and tank them to slow down enemy caps, whilst lets say cloak or invis pot, you cannot contribute to those. You can even use guard ability on allies whilst in mist form... so there really is zero counter play vs mist form players, keep defending it all you want but the ability offers too much for too little in return

ivramirez

Piraja27 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Piraja27 wrote: »

they could make that mist slowly increases cost in mag the longer you run it, making players having to make decisions instead of just 1 button all dmg negated till safe, with the way this game runs now, sustain rarely is an issue to people.

That'd literally kill the skill.

It isn't broken. It's the one good ability vampires have.

The way this game functions, 75% dmg reduction is insane, on top of it you can move noticeably faster and cannot be slown down, the example this video shows of going from base to base while in mist form isn't even a long time considering how long people can be in mist form.
We have things that do negate damage like basic block and cloak but they both have hard counters way higher sustain issues.
Block you cannot move nowhere nearly as fast, though allows you to use some abilities but still if you're only survivor in your team and you try to walk back to your base holding block, you'll run of stamina before half way if not just die, plus block does not negate all effects, certain stuns ignore it such as fighter's guild fear or streak or even the vampire fear while at the subject of vampires.
Cloak negates dot damages on you and for some reason few direct attacks like dawnbreaker but the counter play is that any kind of aoe, or attack that does not need a target to cast will remove you from it making you take all the dmg once more, also detect potions.
Mist however, cast it, move away, no biggie. It is the ultimate 1 button no death, only way to remove mist from use which is not very efficient anyway is using negate ultimate. And wasting somewhat expensive ultimate just for mist form seems like really poor counter play. Now add that people can run mist for very long periods of time and if they do get low health, you can on many classes pop it off when you have bit of distance, burst heal and use potion if off cooldown and go right back in mist.

I don't mind that mist form is strong but I do think it is silly how strong it is now, there are a few things I'd like to add as restrictions to mist but first off just make it not '1 button oh shieet ability, oh nvm I survive because I press 1 button kek'

Block, Cloak, Dodge Roll, Sprint, etc...also don't cause you to take 20% extra damage from every Dawnbreaker, at all times, nor do they cut off 100% of incoming healing, and only Block also prevents natural resource regeneration. Not to mention the 5-20% extra incoming flame damage, 3-12% increased non-Vampire ability cost, and 10-100% reduction in health regeneration associated with having Mist Form as an option.

If you try escaping with Mist Form against determined opposition that's actually willing to put in some effort to chase - which was not the case in the OP's video - you'd better hope that there's a lot of LOS available, and that your class has a really good burst heal. The damage reduction on Mist Form is good, sure, but it doesn't reduce everything to 0, and a lot of people are going to be sitting on a stun for the instant you pop out of it.

yeah the increased damage taken from dawnbreaker ult is kinda irrelevant as builds then to be so bulky anyway and whilst in mist form, you take like 1200 damage instead of 1000, that 200 surely made a difference didn't it..?

you taking increased fire dmg kind of matters but not a whole lot since you can be lowest tier vampire to use the ability anyway if you want so it is not that much extra damage taken from it, and again, mist form itself negates more than enough, infact I see 20-22k health builds in BGs running mist form because how overly reliable it is for escaping ANY situation, not just some, ANY. Even with people chasing them, only viable way to deal dmg to them are ranged abilities, the increased movement and complete snare immunity makes that even with minor expedition, swift trait on gold jewelry and steed stone so overall 32% increased movement speed and possibly even medium armor passives, your abilities will not always go off because the target goes out of range, if you could sprint and use abilities and la weave, you could do it chase easier but then you be asking 'where mah stam gone?' and by then you realize oh the enemy mist formed to their spawn and here comes rest of the team, GG

Fun fact too, any other but chaosball and ctr whilst carrying relic (unless exploiting the ball pick up glitch) you can contribute to objectives in BGs, you can cap points and tank them to slow down enemy caps, whilst lets say cloak or invis pot, you cannot contribute to those. You can even use guard ability on allies whilst in mist form... so there really is zero counter play vs mist form players, keep defending it all you want but the ability offers too much for too little in return

How is it possible that some one can use an ability in PVP that can travel all map with insane damage reduction and increased speed without any absolutely disadvantages?

HankTwo

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Jeremy

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Oh please. It takes a huge investment to get your health regen high enough to where you can counter even the average damage of a coordinated attack in a Battleground. And even that requires you to basically sacrifice your entire offense and remain a puddle on the ground that doesn't fight back. How is that "cheesy"? You are literally sacrificing all of your offensive potential to create any semblance of a stubborn defense. Not only that, but it has hard counters such as Knight Slayer that simply ignore it. And as I pointed out, you can't even use the skill while holding the relic or chaos ball and the capture of flags favors numbers over defense anyway. So on what planet is this skill overpowered? At best, all it does is allow people to live for more than a few seconds in an actual combat situation and stalemate some players. OMG LET'S NEFT IT IMMEDIATELY!!! HOW DARE EVERYONE NOT DIE INSTANTLY!!! Geezus.

This game's PvP certainly has it's fair share of overpowered mechanics and set ups. But Mist From is not among them. It's just functional and actually does something, unlike most of the other defensive options at people's disposal on this game which might as well not even be in the game they are so utterly worthless.

JWillCHS

That video has so much cringe and not because of Mist Form. I can't even believe someone created a video about this.

Dakkx

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

wheem_ESO

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

Yet all of Stamina's defenses remain untouched, other than Cloak/Streak for two specific classes. And at least in the case of Streak, a Stam Sorc without it is in a vastly better position than a Mag Sorc is. Even when magicka shields were actually worthwhile, their size would get completely demolished by the Relic debuff if you had to hold it for any length of time. Stamina builds, meanwhile, could still utilize dodge, block, and sprint as much as they normally could, since none of those methods of defense were affected at all. Block's viability would obviously diminish over time simply due to heals being weaker, though it'd still buy you more time than trying to spam shields that absorb < 1k damage would.

Piraja27 wrote: »

yeah the increased damage taken from dawnbreaker ult is kinda irrelevant as builds then to be so bulky anyway and whilst in mist form, you take like 1200 damage instead of 1000, that 200 surely made a difference didn't it..?

I've seen a few builds that can alternate between Mist Form and blocking (all but 1 were troll builds with no meaningful damage or support), but most everyone else will spend nearly all of their combat-time in humanoid form, which means you're usually eating a lot more than 200 extra damage on a Dawnbreaker.

Piraja27 wrote: »

mist form itself negates more than enough, infact I see 20-22k health builds in BGs running mist form because how overly reliable it is for escaping ANY situation, not just some, ANY.

I would encourage you to try out a Magicka build with Mist Form at the higher MMR ranges. It's certainly useful, but it's not nearly what you seem to think it is.

Piraja27 wrote: »

Even with people chasing them, only viable way to deal dmg to them are ranged abilities, the increased movement and complete snare immunity makes that even with minor expedition, swift trait on gold jewelry and steed stone so overall 32% increased movement speed and possibly even medium armor passives, your abilities will not always go off because the target goes out of range, if you could sprint and use abilities and la weave, you could do it chase easier but then you be asking 'where mah stam gone?' and by then you realize oh the enemy mist formed to their spawn and here comes rest of the team, GG

Setting aside the bugged snare attached to Stamina-Blastbones that goes through immunity, the only mobility provided by Mist Form is snare/root immunity and Major Expedition. In that sense, it's basically a channeled Race Against Time. Stamina builds also have access to the exact same tools, but can also sprint, gap close, re-buff, heal up, do damage, etc...at the same time. If you really want to chase a Magicka build that's using Mist Form to move between bases, as was complained about in the above video, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever that you can't keep up on a Stam build. And on many setups it should be completely trivial.

Mist Forming around LOS can certainly be a bit different, but that's not something that is in any way unique to it. Stamina builds utilize LOS the exact same way on a regular basis, as do Magicka setups that aren't using Mist Form.

As I've said before, I'm totally open to the idea that Mist Form is too good in certain edge cases, but as a general rule? It's arguably inferior to running Race Against Time (without Vampirism), and definitely worse than the survivability tools that are available to Stamina builds.

erio

Yes lets make mag have even less mobility. Seems like youre a bit upset you couldnt kill this one guy

HankTwo

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Oh please. It takes a huge investment to get your health regen high enough to where you can counter even the average damage of a coordinated attack in a Battleground. And even that requires you to basically sacrifice your entire offense and remain a puddle on the ground that doesn't fight back. How is that "cheesy"? You are literally sacrificing all of your offensive potential to create any semblance of a stubborn defense.

Not really. You need one good health regen set on the backbar like orgnums + health regen buffs from pots, heavy armor, and maybe repentance and you are already close to reaching 3k health regen as vampire stage 1. Thats equivalent to 12k health regen on someone outside of mistform who isnt blocking. So you can still go for a full offensive 5 piece front (like stuhns or war maiden) + malacath + monster set + 1 piece trainee, or something like vate destro + malacath + zaan + 2 piece trainee + 2 piece agility.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Not only that, but it has hard counters such as Knight Slayer that simply ignore it.

Ok, so there are like 2 or 3 sets that counter this defense and that means its balanced? Gotcha.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

And as I pointed out, you can't even use the skill while holding the relic or chaos ball and the capture of flags favors numbers over defense anyway.

So now we balance skills in PvP around their usability in niche relic grab and chaos ball bg modes?

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

This game's PvP certainly has it's fair share of overpowered mechanics and set ups. But Mist From is not among them. It's just functional and actually does something, unlike most of the other defensive options at people's disposal on this game which might as well not even be in the game they are so utterly worthless.

Whats your problem with making the skill less useable as a defacto permanent defense you can camp in and instead make it easier to use for short, smart repositioning on builds that dont stack cost reduction glyphs?

Right now you have magplar builds that get their offense carried by procs (mostly vate destro and zaan with gaplcose spam), that can just camp in mistform indefinitely to easily bypass the zaan cd. Depending on the build they are pretty much 100% unkillable in a 1v1 unless you have strong oblivion damage (which most builds dont use) or are a sorc with very strong burst and good timing on your negate.

I just checked on the build editor how much I could 'cheese' the defense while still having the offense of vate destro + zaan + malacath. This is what I came up with:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301378

Over 4.6k health regen, so to outdamage this you would need at least ~ 2.4k true dps against this build while it is in mistform. Since the build has ~32k resistances and is an altmer for 5% extra mitigation on top of mistform, lets look how much tooltip damage would be required to outdamage the health regen considering the attacker has 15k penetration:
True mitigation = 0.5 [battlespirit] * 0.25 [mistform] * (1-17/66) [resistances] * 0.95 [altmer passive] = 0.0882
--> 2.4k / 0.0882 = 27.2k tooltip damage per second

Now be my guest and log on to a well rounded pvp build, remove all cp, and go to a 3m target dummy and parse. Your sustainable dps wont be even close to that number. And all the while this builds mistform costs a laughable 92 magicka per second.

So lets look at the potential mag sustain of this build outside of mag regen. Even without desert rose it can generate up to:
240 [channeled focus] + 168 [minor magickasteal] + 135 [constitution passive] + 168 [potion on cd] = 711 magicka per second.

So to summarize, a build like this has a mistform that can easily be sustain indefinitely and even better it can restore its mag pool while in it. Furthermore, it has health regen that almost no well rounded pvp build can sustainably outdamage, and it has 47% extra movement speed in mist, which is faster than sprint without extra speedbuffs. And the offense is still okish with up to 13k pen, mala and these 2 proc sets (not great, I admit that, but these 3 offensive sets combined will still give you kills). Its just another form of ultra low risk, decent reward playstyle this patch is plagued with.

Verdict: Mistform on its own might be fine, maybe even a bit underpowered. However, if you start building for it via stacking cost reduction glyphs and/or using sets like desert rose, as well as stacking health regen, it becomes an extremely strong defense, that most PvP builds have no real counter to.

wheem_ESO

HankTwo wrote: »

Whats your problem with making the skill less useable as a defacto permanent defense you can camp in and instead make it easier to use for short, smart repositioning on builds that dont stack cost reduction glyphs?

Right now you have magplar builds that get their offense carried by procs (mostly vate destro and zaan with gaplcose spam), that can just camp in mistform indefinitely to easily bypass the zaan cd. Depending on the build they are pretty much 100% unkillable in a 1v1 unless you have strong oblivion damage (which most builds dont use) or are a sorc with very strong burst and good timing on your negate.

I just checked on the build editor how much I could 'cheese' the defense while still having the offense of vate destro + zaan + malacath. This is what I came up with:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301378

Over 4.6k health regen, so to outdamage this you would need at least ~ 2.4k true dps against this build while it is in mistform. Since the build has ~32k resistances and is an altmer for 5% extra mitigation on top of mistform, lets look how much tooltip damage would be required to outdamage the health regen considering the attacker has 15k penetration:
True mitigation = 0.5 [battlespirit] * 0.25 [mistform] * (1-17/66) [resistances] * 0.95 [altmer passive] = 0.0882
--> 2.4k / 0.0882 = 27.2k tooltip damage per second

Now be my guest and log on to a well rounded pvp build, remove all cp, and go to a 3m target dummy and parse. Your sustainable dps wont be even close to that number. And all the while this builds mistform costs a laughable 92 magicka per second.

So lets look at the potential mag sustain of this build outside of mag regen. Even without desert rose it can generate up to:
240 [channeled focus] + 168 [minor magickasteal] + 135 [constitution passive] + 168 [potion on cd] = 711 magicka per second.

So to summarize, a build like this has a mistform that can easily be sustain indefinitely and even better it can restore its mag pool while in it. Furthermore, it has health regen that almost no well rounded pvp build can sustainably outdamage, and it has 47% extra movement speed in mist, which is faster than sprint without extra speedbuffs. And the offense is still okish with up to 13k pen, mala and these 2 proc sets (not great, I admit that, but these 3 offensive sets combined will still give you kills). Its just another form of ultra low risk, decent reward playstyle this patch is plagued with.

Verdict: Mistform on its own might be fine, maybe even a bit underpowered. However, if you start building for it via stacking cost reduction glyphs and/or using sets like desert rose, as well as stacking health regen, it becomes an extremely strong defense, that most PvP builds have no real counter to.

Like I said, there may be some edge cases where it's a problem, but that doesn't mean that the skill itself is in need of a nerf. And the offense of the build you linked can at least be countered fairly well if you have some available LOS, and if utilizing Sweeps they'd be vulnerable to CC and/or counter pressure during the channel. The one non-troll build that I saw alternating between Block and Mist Form was a Mag DK with Grothdarr and...maybe Overwhelming Surge too? Don't remember for sure. Anyway, the amount of CC and DOTs available to Mag DK meant that he had very substantial pressure damage up at almost all times, while still being able to sit on a Leap for some extra burst (and resource recovery). He spent the vast majority of his combat-time either holding block or in Mist Form, and there was literally nothing that I could do about it since I can't CC through block and only have Mist Form for my own mobility.

If cost reduction glyphs are the real issue, which seems to be the case, then that is what should be targeted for nerfs/changes. Since they might be completely fine in most other areas of the game, perhaps the change should revolve around either some sort of special interaction with channeled abilities, or a cap on the amount of cost reduction that any one thing can receive. Said cap can scale with the base cost of any given ability, making triple-reduction still viable, but not something that would make anything "too close" to being free. 'Course, they could also just change the cost reduction glyphs to being a % instead of a flat amount, but that could potentially cause problems once it starts stacking with various other things.

Joinovikova

ivramirez wrote: »

When enough is enough...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBaRwK-YYg

true *** start when... u build mist spam with zan and wrath of elements... yy super cheam skill with cost reduciton cost nothing .. 24/7 near imoratality and fight only with proceed sets.. if fail back to immortality it just completly remove diadvantage cd of the stupidly op proc sets ...

MentalxHammer

This skill is clearly broken. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Waffennacht

Is mist form more powerful than WW?
Proc sets?
Malacath?
Health Based Heals?
Snipe Desync?

Seems like its not more powerful then those things.

Therefore not in a big humbug over it

dcmgti

I still honestly don't understand why people are so mad at mist form. If someone has set their build up to just sit in mist then ignore them. I see plenty of troll builds in pvp that I just ignore. If a person is stacking cost reduction then they are giving up damage and healing. If they are using a health recovery set then they are giving up even more damage.

In Gray Host it doesn't take many good players to burst you in mist form even with 30k health and 30k resist. I die in it plenty just trying to kite or LOS. I also see other people die in mist very often. This of course is based on if it actually even works. In heavy lag RaT is superior for escaping just because it works. I have been to 50% and tried to LOS 3 players, they apparently gave up. The stamblade I ran into behind the wall burst me down before I could even get out of mist to heal lol.

Edit to say I know this is BG, I just referenced Grey Host as an example because that's where I primarily pvp. I would expect high MMR BG's to have the same type of players that can burst through mist.

Stahlor

I can''t see a problem either. Just let them "mist" forever by not killing anybody, if they enjoy PVP like that.