RE: Stamina Warden Shalks (Sub Assault) Change

MashmalloMan

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Netch is required for sustain. Lotus is there for survival. Sub assault need to be aimed (and timed) properly. Bird of prey has to be slotted to get any real damage out of warden, you need that 8% plus 2% animal companion bonus passive. That also means to push out damage we have to slot cutting dive, which is an average at best spamable because to get the most out of that it requires the target to be off balance. Growing swarm is solid. Expansive frost cloak is actually decent when soloing against mobs.

Now there are some other interesting things you bring with solo warden and that’s gripping shards for a quick AOE/CC, best used against mobs of course but you’ll likely drop your class spamable for something like whirling blades for the AOE plus execute.

That’s the real killer of warden in PvE, no real execute. You have to use either whirling blades or poison injection on your back bar. Or be a rebel and use both.

I’m the end though in PvE, especially if you solo you have to buff up and weave 5 or more skills dynamically to keep them up and you still deal inferior damage. My Stam NB buffs with 4 skills that synch up much better and last a lot longer than and it hits way harder.

I'm aware of how useful those skills are for their specific purposes, I'm meerly stating that they're clearly a jack of all trades, master of none by ZOS's core design. If you want improvements in content like competitive dps, something has to give from that side of the coin. @Skjaldbjorn provided some good examples.

Birds does suck though, frankly every class spammable sucks in the game..

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

That’s the real killer of warden in PvE, no real execute. You have to use either whirling blades or poison injection on your back bar. Or be a rebel and use both.

I'm sorry, I can't agree here, this is not the problem.. The only stam classes with executes are Nightblade and... Warden, which of course doesn't realllllly count because it's on an ultimate, and that ultimate is a dumb bear, but you still have an execute scaling skill that other classes do not. So clearly that isn't the main issue. Almost every other stam class slots Executioner or Whirling Blades.

Edit: I guess you can count the crit execute scaling for Necro, but even they have to slot Executioner or Whirling Blades and their dps isn't that great. They're usually debuff *****s, when other classes have the same Major Vulnerability debuff, they end up pulling ahead.

Pink_Pixie

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

I don't really play other classes, but looking at the wiki about the classes, all classes get major breach/fracture of some sorts, other than Templars and Sorcerers, Necromancers get it if they use boneyard, which isn't to bad, but not ideal.

Still it's my opinion, and not everyone will agree.

Skjaldbjorn

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

I don't really play other classes, but looking at the wiki about the classes, all classes get major breach/fracture of some sorts, other than Templars and Sorcerers, Necromancers get it if they use boneyard, which isn't to bad, but not ideal.

Still it's my opinion, and not everyone will agree.

Yeah no they're definitely removing a lot of stuff from class-specific kits, but that's okay. Especially really easily obtainable buffs like Fracture/Breach, Brutality/Sorcery and the like for the majors. I am not opposed to that at all. Warden's still the only class with in-kit Minor Berserk which should probably end. But those are such ridiculous reasons why Stamden can't have more PVE power. Somehow, people think the "power budget" should be combined, but it really shouldn't, especially within the wildly different scopes. You could easily buff Stamden's PVE ability, particularly trials, without touching PVP in the slightest.

ExistingRug61

Even though I would say I am primarily a PvP player, and even one who does find PvP Stamden a bit annoyingly strong to play against, I would say that I am have concerns for how balancing discussion about PvP Stamden, which while they may be valid in that context, could lead to changes which just further unnecessarily negatively affect PvE stamden.

Partially it seems to me (as a bit of an outsider to this class so happy to be corrected if there is something I'm overlooking) that this is a bit because the initial approach to improve Stamdens poor PvE dps was to chuck a bunch of +damage% modifiers at it in the form of advanced species and minor berserk to make up for lacking in class dps damage skills for PvE. But this had the side effect of making PvP stamden comparatively more powerful than other classes with non-warden abilities and/or proc sets as well which are the norm for Stam classes in PvP and may have contributed to its strength in that area. I really hope that any future changes are a bit more nuanced and targeted to context of PvE or PvP.

Much of the discussion in this thread lends itself to that, so I hope a good outcome will result.

Firstmep

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Problem with stamden in pvp, is that they are the tankiest class atm, and thanks to malacath you can still have damage the rivals well built stamblades.
Yes malacath is a big part of the issue, but warden has a lot of built in damage modifiers as well, and Arctic blast scales just a little bit too well.
I would've preferred if they toned down Arctic blast, but something needed to be done to reign in stamdens.
It's kinda stupid that you can run around with emperor levels of hp and still dish out so much damage.
Now don't get me wrong 1v1 it's not really an issue, since warden burst is highly predictable, but you also won't kill a well built stamden 1v1 unless they fall asleep.
At the end of the day the class just has a bit too much going for it.
At any rate I think a big class overhaul is needed, as many base game classes run around atm with heavily outdated skills and passives.
I can't remember ever having to choose what class skills to run on my stamplar for example, vs my stamden or stamcro where I actually have think which amazing skills I can fit on my bar.

Skjaldbjorn

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Even though I would say I am primarily a PvP player, and even one who does find PvP Stamden a bit annoyingly strong to play against, I would say that I am have concerns for how balancing discussion about PvP Stamden, which while they may be valid in that context, could lead to changes which just further unnecessarily negatively affect PvE stamden.

Partially it seems to me (as a bit of an outsider to this class so happy to be corrected if there is something I'm overlooking) that this is a bit because the initial approach to improve Stamdens poor PvE dps was to chuck a bunch of +damage% modifiers at it in the form of advanced species and minor berserk to make up for lacking in class dps damage skills for PvE. But this had the side effect of making PvP stamden comparatively more powerful than other classes with non-warden abilities and/or proc sets as well which are the norm for Stam classes in PvP and may have contributed to its strength in that area. I really hope that any future changes are a bit more nuanced and targeted to context of PvE or PvP.

Much of the discussion in this thread lends itself to that, so I hope a good outcome will result.

We already had Minor Berserk since release, as far as I can recall. Effectively, what they did was nerf the bear and increase Advanced Species' percentage modifier. This was for one core reason - the bear was kinda garbo and would just stand around or hit nothing at an alarming rate. Players asked for less of their damage to be tied to the bear so they could run other ults. It put us in the top-3 DPS wise.

Then they reverted the Advanced Species change, never returned the bear damage and left us in the dumpster.

Skjaldbjorn

Not sure how I missed this post. Anywho. @MashmalloMan

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pretty good points, Bird of Prey slotting for dps is almost surpassed by just slotting Camo Hunter, which also carries over the Minor Berserk buff to back bar providing potentially higher uptime while also providing Major Savagery, which would be annoying to keep up using the lackluster Lotus Flower. Almost 2 skills in 1. 3% wpd vs 2% damage done is also very similar.

All they have to do to fix Birds is admit their off-balance idea was terrible. Unchain it from OB and the skill is 100% fine. Even with the flat damage nerf, having actual control over bleed stacks resolves the issue. Cap them at 3-5, and then decide whether they can be sustained or fall off and must be re-stacked. Either way is fine, but give us control. Trying to shoehorn our entire DPS rotation into a nonsensical debuff with wildly inconsistent uptimes is bad game design 101.

I think having Major Brutality on your sustain skill is great and should be lower on the chopping block, I personally hate playing classes without Major Brutality class skills, because the only universal options are 2H momentum and DW flying dagger, which are both lackluster for pve content, while feeling situational or a way to shoehorn your build in pvp.

I was more just speaking to mediocre self-buffs somehow inhibiting our power in PVE. Makes no sense to me. Trash it all for all I care.

Lotus Flower needs a complete rework, 1 loveley suggestion I saw would be to increase the duration and provide a unique poison/bleed damage buff. The 20s duration doesn't match Netch or Ice Fortress. I very much like the 33s or 40s from Crit Surge/Bound Armaments which support both 14s and 10s rotations (Endless Hail vs Arrow Barrage) with a large buffer.

So, I agree Lotus needs a rework. No argument there. However, I don't want to see Stamden return to the nonsensical "cast ALL the buffs" class we were at release. It was awful and felt bad. They intentionally moved away from that, and I would rather keep that far the hell away. That was a terrible, terrible time for Wardens in PVE.

Major Brittle would be pretty cool, but my hope is that ZOS plans on abolishing either the 20% crit damage from CP or lowering base crit damage from 150% to 130% to support introducing effects like Minor/Major Brittle. I'd personally prefer for Major Brittle to be applied from something outside of the bear to allow more options for Warden DD's. Not everyone likes the Bear AI and relying on it for end game dps is a problem. The second issue is the fact that Wardens have innate +10% crit dmg to chilled enemies, minor brittle 10% from frost staves and then potentially major brittle for another 20%. Thats pretty much +40% crit damage from 1 class which is a bit obscene, I think something would have to change drastically to support that idea.

I think the nerf to Major Vuln compensates for Major Brittle pretty well, honestly. As far as putting it on something other than the bear, bad idea. The moment you do that, it becomes a support skill/debuff. Promise you. You'd see healers hitting Shalks every 6s or spamming a bird now and then. Anytime players can move debuffs away from DPS (particularly Wardens) and onto supports, they will. Major Brittle on Warden DPS instantly makes them highly competitive if it's attached to the bear. It finally gives Warden DPS a unique, powerful, class-only debuff that groups would heavily desire. However, for this to work, they would need to work off a similar idea to what I have suggested previously and give Stamden a "scales off max stat" morph of Winter's so they can apply their own Chilled. Having Major Brittle be short duration (4-6s) and proc only on Chilled targets should be perfectly functional within the current power spectrum.

Vizirith

Sub Assault was probably one of the best damaging abilities in the game, short of proxy.

Pevey

Yes, sub assault was good, but it was also warden’s ONLY remaining good ability. Everything else is subpar from dps perspective. Not one dps warden would go without shalks. And yet still our theoretical max damage lags behind, and I find practical in-game dps lags even further, making us kind of a joke PVE dps class. So even with this “good” skill, warden pretty much sucks for PVE dps, meaning the other skills/passives etc are absolutely terrible compared to other classes.

And I don’t find wardens to be very hard to kill at all in PvP, and I’m not even good at PvP. I just know wardens.

ExistingRug61

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Even though I would say I am primarily a PvP player, and even one who does find PvP Stamden a bit annoyingly strong to play against, I would say that I am have concerns for how balancing discussion about PvP Stamden, which while they may be valid in that context, could lead to changes which just further unnecessarily negatively affect PvE stamden.

Partially it seems to me (as a bit of an outsider to this class so happy to be corrected if there is something I'm overlooking) that this is a bit because the initial approach to improve Stamdens poor PvE dps was to chuck a bunch of +damage% modifiers at it in the form of advanced species and minor berserk to make up for lacking in class dps damage skills for PvE. But this had the side effect of making PvP stamden comparatively more powerful than other classes with non-warden abilities and/or proc sets as well which are the norm for Stam classes in PvP and may have contributed to its strength in that area. I really hope that any future changes are a bit more nuanced and targeted to context of PvE or PvP.

Much of the discussion in this thread lends itself to that, so I hope a good outcome will result.

We already had Minor Berserk since release, as far as I can recall. Effectively, what they did was nerf the bear and increase Advanced Species' percentage modifier. This was for one core reason - the bear was kinda garbo and would just stand around or hit nothing at an alarming rate. Players asked for less of their damage to be tied to the bear so they could run other ults. It put us in the top-3 DPS wise.

Then they reverted the Advanced Species change, never returned the bear damage and left us in the dumpster.

I was somewhat talking about the original design, and not just what followed since its release (although I had forgotten that advanced species was subsequently reduced after being increased, so my mistake there). From the outset I thought the dps skills of warden were a kind of a bit plain, and they simply did damage and relied on the damage done percentage buffs to be in the same ballpark other classes, instead of having other effects/synergies/mechanics/relationships between skills to make it interesting and more effective (although it seems there have been attempts to improve this subsequent to release, it still just doesn't "feel" there to me). This is sort of what stopped me getting into the class and still has, although I would love to see it improved. Obviously yourself and others in this thread have a lot of experience with it and have put a lot of thought into how this could happen given the suggestions in this thread, so I'm hoping something will come of them.

zvavi

From pve perspective you are getting 2 GCD's per rotation, this is huge, I can't see how people can see it as PvE nerf.

Integral1900

Cheer up folks

If they keep making the changes we have seen in 6.2 combining stamina and magic, by next year we will finally have viable endgame hybrids, then we can just use the other morph 😇

Skjaldbjorn

zvavi wrote: »

From pve perspective you are getting 2 GCD's per rotation, this is huge, I can't see how people can see it as PvE nerf.

Contextually, yes. That's correct. Sustain is a factor. Stamden sustain is already abysmal and requires keeping Netch up on CD essentially. The buffs to major/minor endurance may counter the sustain hit, but feasibly speaking Bird is a fair bit more expensive than Shalks. So if you're replacing those GCDs with birds, for this to be a buff, that has to be comfortably sustainable.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Not sure how I missed this post. Anywho. @MashmalloMan

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pretty good points, Bird of Prey slotting for dps is almost surpassed by just slotting Camo Hunter, which also carries over the Minor Berserk buff to back bar providing potentially higher uptime while also providing Major Savagery, which would be annoying to keep up using the lackluster Lotus Flower. Almost 2 skills in 1. 3% wpd vs 2% damage done is also very similar.

All they have to do to fix Birds is admit their off-balance idea was terrible. Unchain it from OB and the skill is 100% fine. Even with the flat damage nerf, having actual control over bleed stacks resolves the issue. Cap them at 3-5, and then decide whether they can be sustained or fall off and must be re-stacked. Either way is fine, but give us control. Trying to shoehorn our entire DPS rotation into a nonsensical debuff with wildly inconsistent uptimes is bad game design 101.

I think having Major Brutality on your sustain skill is great and should be lower on the chopping block, I personally hate playing classes without Major Brutality class skills, because the only universal options are 2H momentum and DW flying dagger, which are both lackluster for pve content, while feeling situational or a way to shoehorn your build in pvp.

I was more just speaking to mediocre self-buffs somehow inhibiting our power in PVE. Makes no sense to me. Trash it all for all I care.

Lotus Flower needs a complete rework, 1 loveley suggestion I saw would be to increase the duration and provide a unique poison/bleed damage buff. The 20s duration doesn't match Netch or Ice Fortress. I very much like the 33s or 40s from Crit Surge/Bound Armaments which support both 14s and 10s rotations (Endless Hail vs Arrow Barrage) with a large buffer.

So, I agree Lotus needs a rework. No argument there. However, I don't want to see Stamden return to the nonsensical "cast ALL the buffs" class we were at release. It was awful and felt bad. They intentionally moved away from that, and I would rather keep that far the hell away. That was a terrible, terrible time for Wardens in PVE.

Major Brittle would be pretty cool, but my hope is that ZOS plans on abolishing either the 20% crit damage from CP or lowering base crit damage from 150% to 130% to support introducing effects like Minor/Major Brittle. I'd personally prefer for Major Brittle to be applied from something outside of the bear to allow more options for Warden DD's. Not everyone likes the Bear AI and relying on it for end game dps is a problem. The second issue is the fact that Wardens have innate +10% crit dmg to chilled enemies, minor brittle 10% from frost staves and then potentially major brittle for another 20%. Thats pretty much +40% crit damage from 1 class which is a bit obscene, I think something would have to change drastically to support that idea.

I think the nerf to Major Vuln compensates for Major Brittle pretty well, honestly. As far as putting it on something other than the bear, bad idea. The moment you do that, it becomes a support skill/debuff. Promise you. You'd see healers hitting Shalks every 6s or spamming a bird now and then. Anytime players can move debuffs away from DPS (particularly Wardens) and onto supports, they will. Major Brittle on Warden DPS instantly makes them highly competitive if it's attached to the bear. It finally gives Warden DPS a unique, powerful, class-only debuff that groups would heavily desire. However, for this to work, they would need to work off a similar idea to what I have suggested previously and give Stamden a "scales off max stat" morph of Winter's so they can apply their own Chilled. Having Major Brittle be short duration (4-6s) and proc only on Chilled targets should be perfectly functional within the current power spectrum.

i can see them adding major brittle to the new class next year, provided there is a new class which is likely. While i think that adding major brittle to sleet storm over major protection would make a lot of sense, and would be quite thematic for magden, it's not in theme for stamden, and all it does is give more power to tanks and healer wardens. It wouldn't be a good idea.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i can see them adding major brittle to the new class next year, provided there is a new class which is likely. While i think that adding major brittle to sleet storm over major protection would make a lot of sense, and would be quite thematic for magden, it's not in theme for stamden, and all it does is give more power to tanks and healer wardens. It wouldn't be a good idea.

I would be deeply saddened if they held Major Brittle that long instead of giving it to Warden, which has long had a frost theme. Perma, as you said, is a poor choice. The bear simply makes the most sense. It's a DPS-specific ult, would be a huge loss for tanks or healers to run it, etc. It could proc only on Chilled targets and maintain the thematics. Only fix then needed would be for Stamden to apply chilled on their own without an enchant.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i can see them adding major brittle to the new class next year, provided there is a new class which is likely. While i think that adding major brittle to sleet storm over major protection would make a lot of sense, and would be quite thematic for magden, it's not in theme for stamden, and all it does is give more power to tanks and healer wardens. It wouldn't be a good idea.

I would be deeply saddened if they held Major Brittle that long instead of giving it to Warden, which has long had a frost theme. Perma, as you said, is a poor choice. The bear simply makes the most sense. It's a DPS-specific ult, would be a huge loss for tanks or healers to run it, etc. It could proc only on Chilled targets and maintain the thematics. Only fix then needed would be for Stamden to apply chilled on their own without an enchant.

You're definitely not wrong but i can't see a way to get around it in the future. A lot of people really don't like bear because you need to double slot it, and at the same time that also makes it as a more dps valuable slot and the buff is likely to be treated as valueable as major force. If they nerfed minor brittle to 5% critical damage taken and major brittle to 10% it might be fairer. At the same time, +5% crit on brittle would make frostden less viable(as it's parsing very close to normal magden for solo and 4man atm), and would likely need to actually see some sort of bonus critical damage added to ancient knowledge. Somewhere in the park of +3% critical damage. Man i dunno it's super messy at the moment.

It seems to me like they will spend the q1 and q2 patches next year re-adjusting classes that are too weak, and i think it'll be a good time to look at dps wardens. Since we are arguably the most effected by the standardisation. We've needed our damage skills to be readjusted for a while.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i can see them adding major brittle to the new class next year, provided there is a new class which is likely. While i think that adding major brittle to sleet storm over major protection would make a lot of sense, and would be quite thematic for magden, it's not in theme for stamden, and all it does is give more power to tanks and healer wardens. It wouldn't be a good idea.

I would be deeply saddened if they held Major Brittle that long instead of giving it to Warden, which has long had a frost theme. Perma, as you said, is a poor choice. The bear simply makes the most sense. It's a DPS-specific ult, would be a huge loss for tanks or healers to run it, etc. It could proc only on Chilled targets and maintain the thematics. Only fix then needed would be for Stamden to apply chilled on their own without an enchant.

You're definitely not wrong but i can't see a way to get around it in the future. A lot of people really don't like bear because you need to double slot it, and at the same time that also makes it as a more dps valuable slot and the buff is likely to be treated as valueable as major force. If they nerfed minor brittle to 5% critical damage taken and major brittle to 10% it might be fairer. At the same time, +5% crit on brittle would make frostden less viable(as it's parsing very close to normal magden for solo and 4man atm), and would likely need to actually see some sort of bonus critical damage added to ancient knowledge. Somewhere in the park of +3% critical damage. Man i dunno it's super messy at the moment.

It seems to me like they will spend the q1 and q2 patches next year re-adjusting classes that are too weak, and i think it'll be a good time to look at dps wardens. Since we are arguably the most effected by the standardisation. We've needed our damage skills to be readjusted for a while.

I'm not entirely sure why people are so opposed to the bear. I get double-slotting it isn't the best, but it's hardly limiting especially in PVE. And the bear is next to worthless in PVP. I'm struggling to find the scenarios where this matters too much. Maybe for Magden where you'd like to have an AoE ult like destro? For Stamden our other options are Dawnbreaker and Ballista. Use DB on trash and it's fine. I think dropping Major to 15% would be fine. It needs to scale higher than Vuln, as it only affects crit damage, whereas vuln affects all. It can also carry a much shorter duration and have a proc requirement (chilled) to make it more restrictive.

I'm not holding my breath even a little bit for "class rebalance". We have seen not a shred of meaningful rebalancing in years. I don't expect that to happen next year, either. Their focus is on fixing the game and making it run smoothly, which it should be. Until they get the game running well, balance is less meaningful. We need band-aid fixes in the meantime.

SodanTok

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

evoniee

*insert meme with nb on it* first time?

ExistingRug61

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I think dropping Major to 15% would be fine. It needs to scale higher than Vuln, as it only affects crit damage, whereas vuln affects all. It can also carry a much shorter duration and have a proc requirement (chilled) to make it more restrictive.

It doesn't look like having a greater effect with a lower uptime and/or more restrictive condition is where ZOS wants to take the major/minor buffs. Looking at the all the changes to the buffs it looks like they are trying to make them all have a similar impact on dps while active, regardless of the uptime, difficulty of source, or rarity. So I would expect their idea is that brittle will be balanced with vulnerability based so that you could simply apply either and get a similar result, so obviously the value of brittle will need to be higher than vulnerability, but how much so depends on what the average values for crit chance and damage are. And similarly brittle will likely take exactly the same values as force.

Whether or not this is a good or bad thing is not what I am trying to suggest, just that I would not expect them to change the value brittle based around a lower potential uptime or a more restrictive proc condition, as it doesn't seem to match their current design goal.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i can see them adding major brittle to the new class next year, provided there is a new class which is likely. While i think that adding major brittle to sleet storm over major protection would make a lot of sense, and would be quite thematic for magden, it's not in theme for stamden, and all it does is give more power to tanks and healer wardens. It wouldn't be a good idea.

I would be deeply saddened if they held Major Brittle that long instead of giving it to Warden, which has long had a frost theme. Perma, as you said, is a poor choice. The bear simply makes the most sense. It's a DPS-specific ult, would be a huge loss for tanks or healers to run it, etc. It could proc only on Chilled targets and maintain the thematics. Only fix then needed would be for Stamden to apply chilled on their own without an enchant.

You're definitely not wrong but i can't see a way to get around it in the future. A lot of people really don't like bear because you need to double slot it, and at the same time that also makes it as a more dps valuable slot and the buff is likely to be treated as valueable as major force. If they nerfed minor brittle to 5% critical damage taken and major brittle to 10% it might be fairer. At the same time, +5% crit on brittle would make frostden less viable(as it's parsing very close to normal magden for solo and 4man atm), and would likely need to actually see some sort of bonus critical damage added to ancient knowledge. Somewhere in the park of +3% critical damage. Man i dunno it's super messy at the moment.

It seems to me like they will spend the q1 and q2 patches next year re-adjusting classes that are too weak, and i think it'll be a good time to look at dps wardens. Since we are arguably the most effected by the standardisation. We've needed our damage skills to be readjusted for a while.

I'm not entirely sure why people are so opposed to the bear. I get double-slotting it isn't the best, but it's hardly limiting especially in PVE. And the bear is next to worthless in PVP. I'm struggling to find the scenarios where this matters too much. Maybe for Magden where you'd like to have an AoE ult like destro? For Stamden our other options are Dawnbreaker and Ballista. Use DB on trash and it's fine. I think dropping Major to 15% would be fine. It needs to scale higher than Vuln, as it only affects crit damage, whereas vuln affects all. It can also carry a much shorter duration and have a proc requirement (chilled) to make it more restrictive.

I'm not holding my breath even a little bit for "class rebalance". We have seen not a shred of meaningful rebalancing in years. I don't expect that to happen next year, either. Their focus is on fixing the game and making it run smoothly, which it should be. Until they get the game running well, balance is less meaningful. We need band-aid fixes in the meantime.

the main reason people don't like bear is because of the double slot. and it's got unreliable AI

Skjaldbjorn

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

i'm still waiting for a bird rework, get rid of that off balance at +7 meters, buff the speed by 20-30%, unchain the bleed from off balance and change the +15% damage per meter on scr to something else probably aoe based. It needs to be done. the entire skill is designed so badly right now

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

i'm still waiting for a bird rework, get rid of that off balance at +7 meters, buff the speed by 20-30%, unchain the bleed from off balance and change the +15% damage per meter on scr to something else probably aoe based. It needs to be done. the entire skill is designed so badly right now

Honestly, as someone who plays nearly every class in the game, I would venture to say Birds is currently the single worst skill, particularly DPS skill, in the game. It is abysmal in nearly every metric. The flat damage is mediocre, the secondary effects are trash, it forces wonky, unpleasant rotations that don't line up with the other core skills of the class, it's overpriced for what it does and lacks the consistency of basically any other Stam DPS spammable.

irswat

I much liked the rhythm of the warden rotation. I don't think I will like this change.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

i'm still waiting for a bird rework, get rid of that off balance at +7 meters, buff the speed by 20-30%, unchain the bleed from off balance and change the +15% damage per meter on scr to something else probably aoe based. It needs to be done. the entire skill is designed so badly right now

Honestly, as someone who plays nearly every class in the game, I would venture to say Birds is currently the single worst skill, particularly DPS skill, in the game. It is abysmal in nearly every metric. The flat damage is mediocre, the secondary effects are trash, it forces wonky, unpleasant rotations that don't line up with the other core skills of the class, it's overpriced for what it does and lacks the consistency of basically any other Stam DPS spammable.

it's not the worst skill, but i'd definitely say the worst spammable in terms of design.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

i'm still waiting for a bird rework, get rid of that off balance at +7 meters, buff the speed by 20-30%, unchain the bleed from off balance and change the +15% damage per meter on scr to something else probably aoe based. It needs to be done. the entire skill is designed so badly right now

Honestly, as someone who plays nearly every class in the game, I would venture to say Birds is currently the single worst skill, particularly DPS skill, in the game. It is abysmal in nearly every metric. The flat damage is mediocre, the secondary effects are trash, it forces wonky, unpleasant rotations that don't line up with the other core skills of the class, it's overpriced for what it does and lacks the consistency of basically any other Stam DPS spammable.

it's not the worst skill, but i'd definitely say the worst spammable in terms of design.

That may be a more reasonable description, yeah. I'm just biased and exhausted from the complete lack of meaningful change.

SodanTok

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

No no I meant good stamina warden changes
October 2018 - Cheaper sub, more stamina on Netch, cheaper Cutting Dive, , +1% to Animal passive, perma Minor Berserk on slotting Prey, less damage on Bear

Since Then
February 2019 - Nothing
May 2019 - Nothing
August 2019 - 1% less on Animal passive
October 2019 - More expensive Dive with less damage but added Off balance and Bleed mechanic, added stamina swarm

February 2020 - 10% crit damage when Chilled passive
May 2020 - Nothing
August 2020 - Nothing
October 2020 - Sub assault no Fracture but recasts itself

That October 2018 patch was more buffs than 2 years of patches since together. And back then sustain mattered great more deal too than now.

Skjaldbjorn

SodanTok wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Last time Warden received any attention in grand scheme of class rebalance was Murkmire Q3 2018 let that sink in...

Anyway in vacuum new Warden changes are solid DPS boost, 1GCD less per 6s of fight is big thing imo, only reason it doesnt shine like it would on other classes is that there isnt any good skill to fill the space with. Warden consistently lacks impactful skills - its all shalks, healing and buffs. New warden reminds of stamplars "potl jab x5" except warden's version of 'jab' is total crap while templar jab is overpowered above anything else spammable

Was that the bird bleed change? I can't recall, but my god that was easily the single worst Stamden change in the history of the class. Could have been super cool and actually bring a solid DPS element, but chaining it to Off-Balance just made the bleed worthless as hell. I was heartbroken.

No no I meant good stamina warden changes
October 2018 - Cheaper sub, more stamina on Netch, cheaper Cutting Dive, , +1% to Animal passive, perma Minor Berserk on slotting Prey, less damage on Bear

Since Then
February 2019 - Nothing
May 2019 - Nothing
August 2019 - 1% less on Animal passive
October 2019 - More expensive Dive with less damage but added Off balance and Bleed mechanic, added stamina swarm

February 2020 - 10% crit damage when Chilled passive
May 2020 - Nothing
August 2020 - Nothing
October 2020 - Sub assault no Fracture but recasts itself

That October 2018 patch was more buffs than 2 years of patches since together. And back then sustain mattered great more deal too than now.

Good lord seeing that is just...depressing. October 2019 should be erased from Zos' history books. Just pretend none of it happened (except stam swarm) and revert it. Good lord. Warden has been ignored to an absolutely alarming level.

ecru

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Problem with stamden in pvp, is that they are the tankiest class atm, and thanks to malacath you can still have damage the rivals well built stamblades.
Yes malacath is a big part of the issue, but warden has a lot of built in damage modifiers as well, and Arctic blast scales just a little bit too well.
I would've preferred if they toned down Arctic blast, but something needed to be done to reign in stamdens.
It's kinda stupid that you can run around with emperor levels of hp and still dish out so much damage.
Now don't get me wrong 1v1 it's not really an issue, since warden burst is highly predictable, but you also won't kill a well built stamden 1v1 unless they fall asleep.
At the end of the day the class just has a bit too much going for it.
At any rate I think a big class overhaul is needed, as many base game classes run around atm with heavily outdated skills and passives.
I can't remember ever having to choose what class skills to run on my stamplar for example, vs my stamden or stamcro where I actually have think which amazing skills I can fit on my bar.

Agree 100%. The "epicdemic" of 40k hp stamdens still being able to instagib people needs to go. I was hit for 11.1k by dawnbreaker from a stamden with 54k hp in Cyrodiil the other day with ~30k resists and minor protection. I wasn't even paying attention to him because I thought there was no way a stamden with over 50k hp could be a threat, assuming he was a shieldbot or running something dumb like Harbinger or whatever, and next thing I know I take a 6k sub assault, 6k dizzy, 11k dawnbreaker, ~2.5k light attack, and ~9k executioner. It's just so far beyond what should be possible in this game and because it has been allowed to go on for so long, every other person I run into seems to be a stamden with a high hp pool.

This of course isn't just limited to good players, there are a whole lot of very very mediocre players doing this too, and while they aren't great at killing people, due to their high hp and the warden toolkit they're next to impossible to kill, which I guess is the goal. You know the players I mean--they generally don't do a whole lot as they aren't even great at executing their combo but the moment they get below 40% hp they'll hit sleet storm and hold block. They all got tired of getting dunked on by good players, realized they could just stack hp, still be effective, and rarely have to die again, so that's what they did.

Buff the hell out of them in pvp, fine, at the very least the minor buffs they don't need, that will be provided by a good group, need to go.

edit: meant buff the hell out of them in pve, sorry.